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If you believe in Art...

36,758 Views | 299 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Forest Bueller
Chuckroast
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Thee University said:

Chuckroast said:


I never suggested the BOR runs the athletics department, but they oversee the administration that runs the school and should be running the athletics department. Some of you kept commenting that the bad decisions made by our players were foreseeable because of the types of players Briles was bringing to the team. I one time commented that the school's admissions department should ultimately be responsible for making decisions on which student athletes are admitted to school, and you basically commented that I had no understanding of how admissions work and that the coach essentially gets who he wants. If that's how it works at Baylor, then that's a problem with Baylor's administration, not with the coach. I know for a fact that is not how it works at other private universities.
Are you kidding me???

Admissions has ZERO say if a coach wants a football player bad enough. It is similar to how grades got changed to keep some of Art's players on board.

It is both a coach and administration problem.
In the football factory SEC, it is not true at Vanderbilt. It is not true at Stanford. If Baylor, allows a coach to make the final decision, then its on them. A coach has enough to do without having to operate his personal admissions office and compliance office. Baylor is way more backward than I thought if that's how things operate here.
Sailor Bear
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Wineguy89 said:

Bearish said:

chorne68 said:

Art was a scapegoat for the Board of Regents.
And 24 of 30 regents who voted to remove him were culprits in this scam?

The fact that some people consider the idea of Art being a rape-enabling cover-up artist ridiculous, while at the same time posit that 80% of a governing body of a university saved collective face by firing a football coach is something I'll never understand.


Not taking sides but your regent vote numbers to fire are WAY off......
According to whom?
YoakDaddy
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Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:


Quit crying.

Anybody with daddy at the end of their screen name deserves to be embarrassed, embarrass themselves and to get pole-axed here regularly every time you open your liberal pie hole.

Good grief man. Get off your knees and walk upright again. 2.5 years on your knees gnashing your little nubbin teeth together over the big, bad wolf BOR is very TSTI ish.

You've got Ian in your mouth and Art on your keister. Stand up I say.

It's funny after I've proven you wrong with a document that you provided, that that's all you've got?!?? Appears to me you are a pro about being on your knees.

You've PROVEN nothing! The BOR had nothing to do with the Athletic Department and that is why we started winning. Across nearly all sports. Take the preachers and lawyers out of the equation and see what happened.

If Art had monitored his "AT RISK" kids none of this would have happened.

As a matter of fact, I have yet to see where you have been correct on anything. Give it up! Wait a minute...................that is what you are doing for Art and Ian.

I'm not doing anything for Briles or Ian. I'm asking why there was zero accountability and consequences for the failing the other 90%. You still don't get it....and you likely never will.

A Yes or No answer will suffice.....Pursuant to the charge signed, did the BOFR provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations?

It's not a trick question. It's from a document that you provided.
Thee University
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YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:


Quit crying.

Anybody with daddy at the end of their screen name deserves to be embarrassed, embarrass themselves and to get pole-axed here regularly every time you open your liberal pie hole.

Good grief man. Get off your knees and walk upright again. 2.5 years on your knees gnashing your little nubbin teeth together over the big, bad wolf BOR is very TSTI ish.

You've got Ian in your mouth and Art on your keister. Stand up I say.

It's funny after I've proven you wrong with a document that you provided, that that's all you've got?!?? Appears to me you are a pro about being on your knees.

You've PROVEN nothing! The BOR had nothing to do with the Athletic Department and that is why we started winning. Across nearly all sports. Take the preachers and lawyers out of the equation and see what happened.

If Art had monitored his "AT RISK" kids none of this would have happened.

As a matter of fact, I have yet to see where you have been correct on anything. Give it up! Wait a minute...................that is what you are doing for Art and Ian.

I'm not doing anything for Briles or Ian. I'm asking why there was zero accountability and consequences for the failing the other 90%. You still don't get it....and you likely never will.

A Yes or No answer will suffice.....Pursuant to the charge signed, did the BOFR provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations?

It's not a trick question. It's from a document that you provided.
BOFR?

Yes.
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." - General Robert E. Lee
Thee University
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For as much as you claim I am a shill for the BOR you have exhibited double the shilldom for CABdriver.

You just can't understand that CABdriver gave the BOR no choice but to do what they did. CABdriver is not Baylor. He was expendable and brought this upon himself. Baylor remains standing tall albeit having to rotoroot the backed up sewer Arthur left us with.
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." - General Robert E. Lee
ScottS
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Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.




I missed the part where the coach is a babysitter to 100 players and gets fired if 1 or 2 of them screw up.
YoakDaddy
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Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Chuckroast said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.



CTE must be taking its toll on your brain or you missed reading comprehension. Go back and re-read #6 slowly this time. I even quoted it for you. BTW....compliance with legal requirements applies across the university, not just athletics.

You proved my point exactly by that attachment.



I think in Thee's worldview, the athletic department operates independently from the university. Therefore, the coach is solely responsible for all compliance matters within athletics and is also solely responsible for admissions decisions of athletes. Therefore, the regents oversee the university but not the athletic department. By the way, if Baylor ever allowed itself to operate this way, it's on them, not on the coach.

And that was the BOFR's mistake day 1 in spotlighting Athletics for university-wide problems. They can't avoid accountability when the charge to which they committed by their signature clearly states they are to, "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

So untrue.

You have said you don't just want a scalp, but you act otherwise. Your only vision of accountability is public resignations followed by a Game of Thrones shame march.


Did the regents go the press and spotlight exec admin failures and any firings for the other 90%? I must have missed where regents held each other and exec admins outside of Starr accountable. To put it your way, not all scalps were taken.....to put it my way, not everyone responsible for our systemic failures has been held accountable.

Never seen Game of Thrones. If there's a shame walk, there are several who need to take it.

A very public mea culpa is accountability by most standards, just not your standards. That mea culpa was the FofF and there was zero obligation to put that out for public consumption. They did. That is just not good enough for you and that likely would not even exist if not for a football coach being fired.


So they didn't have to publicize? The 90% appreciates your honesty about not being obligated. And consequences for the remainder at fault?

Most business record something in a performance evaluation and / HR files. The employee is educated trained and behavior is changed or altered or the next round of performance evaluations results in termination or demotion. Most businesses as well as college and universities don't make this public. In fact there are some laws making protecting privacy that even prevent this.

Also lost in this discussion if the fact that most of the problems related to the admin side are the absence of people to do a job, not people doing a job wrong. When you have three people in a T9 department and you need eight to do the job things go wrong. You don't fire people in the T9 department - you hire the additional personnel. That was true for numerous departments.

Bethany McCraw and the Judicial Affairs staff hand their normal duties just fine. At one point in time T9 was handed to them in addition to what they had been doing well. They were not trained properly for T9 and did some things poorly. In 2014 when they hired a full time T9 coordinator, this was removed from JA and they went back to doing what they always did, by all accounts well. Most would not do thing to McCraw and the JA staff - what do you want? *

*side note - several errors and omissions in you Tevin Elliot 2011-2012 timeline



Please add to any facts missed. That timeline is from a news article that had pdf emails as sources. You know from day 1 all I've wanted is for all facts to be aired to see where they lead and for all parties to be held accountable with consequences.

As to your other point, I know about HR performance and behavior plans. Real companies have classification levels for poor performance/behavior and for ongoing poor performance/behavior so that the performance/behavior may be changed....Using an HR policy is a weak argument at best seeing as how Athletics was held accountable with consequences. How many exec admins outside of Starr and Athletics were fired? So what's the trigger point for severing personnel from Baylor? Is it 10% or more in a single department?

Saying that sexual assault victims didn't receive the care required by law because we were understaffed....I totally understand that was the case and I'm not arguing that because to our collective shame that was the case, but being understaffed is no excuse for not maintaining compliance.
YoakDaddy
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Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:


Quit crying.

Anybody with daddy at the end of their screen name deserves to be embarrassed, embarrass themselves and to get pole-axed here regularly every time you open your liberal pie hole.

Good grief man. Get off your knees and walk upright again. 2.5 years on your knees gnashing your little nubbin teeth together over the big, bad wolf BOR is very TSTI ish.

You've got Ian in your mouth and Art on your keister. Stand up I say.

It's funny after I've proven you wrong with a document that you provided, that that's all you've got?!?? Appears to me you are a pro about being on your knees.

You've PROVEN nothing! The BOR had nothing to do with the Athletic Department and that is why we started winning. Across nearly all sports. Take the preachers and lawyers out of the equation and see what happened.

If Art had monitored his "AT RISK" kids none of this would have happened.

As a matter of fact, I have yet to see where you have been correct on anything. Give it up! Wait a minute...................that is what you are doing for Art and Ian.

I'm not doing anything for Briles or Ian. I'm asking why there was zero accountability and consequences for the failing the other 90%. You still don't get it....and you likely never will.

A Yes or No answer will suffice.....Pursuant to the charge signed, did the BOFR provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations?

It's not a trick question. It's from a document that you provided.
BOFR?

Yes.

Are you sure your answer is Yes that the BOR provided oversight to ensure compliance with internal and external applicable rules/regulations?

Because your answer is Yes, we, therefore, had no compliance issues with T9 or any other internal or external applicable rules/regulations. Why the DoE investigation? Why did we even respond to the NCAA? Why was Athletics staff and Starr fired? Why did the Big 12 withhold our payouts? Why is there a FoF and 105 Recommendations?

Surely, if the BOR performed their charge as you say, we don't have a scandal at all.
Keyser Soze
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YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Chuckroast said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.



CTE must be taking its toll on your brain or you missed reading comprehension. Go back and re-read #6 slowly this time. I even quoted it for you. BTW....compliance with legal requirements applies across the university, not just athletics.

You proved my point exactly by that attachment.



I think in Thee's worldview, the athletic department operates independently from the university. Therefore, the coach is solely responsible for all compliance matters within athletics and is also solely responsible for admissions decisions of athletes. Therefore, the regents oversee the university but not the athletic department. By the way, if Baylor ever allowed itself to operate this way, it's on them, not on the coach.

And that was the BOFR's mistake day 1 in spotlighting Athletics for university-wide problems. They can't avoid accountability when the charge to which they committed by their signature clearly states they are to, "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

So untrue.

You have said you don't just want a scalp, but you act otherwise. Your only vision of accountability is public resignations followed by a Game of Thrones shame march.


Did the regents go the press and spotlight exec admin failures and any firings for the other 90%? I must have missed where regents held each other and exec admins outside of Starr accountable. To put it your way, not all scalps were taken.....to put it my way, not everyone responsible for our systemic failures has been held accountable.

Never seen Game of Thrones. If there's a shame walk, there are several who need to take it.

A very public mea culpa is accountability by most standards, just not your standards. That mea culpa was the FofF and there was zero obligation to put that out for public consumption. They did. That is just not good enough for you and that likely would not even exist if not for a football coach being fired.


So they didn't have to publicize? The 90% appreciates your honesty about not being obligated. And consequences for the remainder at fault?

Most business record something in a performance evaluation and / HR files. The employee is educated trained and behavior is changed or altered or the next round of performance evaluations results in termination or demotion. Most businesses as well as college and universities don't make this public. In fact there are some laws making protecting privacy that even prevent this.

Also lost in this discussion if the fact that most of the problems related to the admin side are the absence of people to do a job, not people doing a job wrong. When you have three people in a T9 department and you need eight to do the job things go wrong. You don't fire people in the T9 department - you hire the additional personnel. That was true for numerous departments.

Bethany McCraw and the Judicial Affairs staff hand their normal duties just fine. At one point in time T9 was handed to them in addition to what they had been doing well. They were not trained properly for T9 and did some things poorly. In 2014 when they hired a full time T9 coordinator, this was removed from JA and they went back to doing what they always did, by all accounts well. Most would not do thing to McCraw and the JA staff - what do you want? *

*side note - several errors and omissions in you Tevin Elliot 2011-2012 timeline



Please add to any facts missed. That timeline is from a news article that had pdf emails as sources. You know from day 1 all I've wanted is for all facts to be aired to see where they lead and for all parties to be held accountable with consequences.

As to your other point, I know about HR performance and behavior plans. Real companies have classification levels for poor performance/behavior and for ongoing poor performance/behavior so that the performance/behavior may be changed....Using an HR policy is a weak argument at best seeing as how Athletics was held accountable with consequences. How many exec admins outside of Starr and Athletics were fired? So what's the trigger point for severing personnel from Baylor? Is it 10% or more in a single department?

Saying that sexual assault victims didn't receive the care required by law because we were understaffed....I totally understand that was the case and I'm not arguing that because to our collective shame that was the case, but being understaffed is no excuse for not maintaining compliance.

I believe that article was a Waco Trib article. The pdf was a a plaintiff petition and not the emails, thought the emails were mentioned in lawsuit. If you ahve the emails let me know.

The only charges filed against TE was on Nov 4 2011 for the MCC girl for a misdemeanor. The DA did not think they had a case for a stronger charge. On Nov 18 2011, JA coordinator David Murdock sent TE a letter stating he was in violation of the student conduct code. Many were copied on this letter including the asst AD Bradshaw. The AD department was also given a copy of the police report.

The incident with the MCC girl occurred Sept 28, 2011. Sometime after that date it was know he was a suspect by Ramsower and Doak. No complaints were filed against TE at Baylor and the alleged victims were not Baylor students. Not sure what they really could have done until Nov 4 2011. The other incident was with a TCU in a Waco club in March 2011. FWIW Ramsower vehemently denied any knowledge of the Mach incident. We all agree Doak is a POS so who knows what he knew.

Briles kicked TE out when dna samples were taken and arrest was imminent, but he knew of Hernandez complaint to police approximately 10 days earlier.


Failure to move cases forward and reach adjudication was one of the problems cited in the findings of fact.













Timbear
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Borrring. Any chance of moving on?
YoakDaddy
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Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Chuckroast said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.



CTE must be taking its toll on your brain or you missed reading comprehension. Go back and re-read #6 slowly this time. I even quoted it for you. BTW....compliance with legal requirements applies across the university, not just athletics.

You proved my point exactly by that attachment.



I think in Thee's worldview, the athletic department operates independently from the university. Therefore, the coach is solely responsible for all compliance matters within athletics and is also solely responsible for admissions decisions of athletes. Therefore, the regents oversee the university but not the athletic department. By the way, if Baylor ever allowed itself to operate this way, it's on them, not on the coach.

And that was the BOFR's mistake day 1 in spotlighting Athletics for university-wide problems. They can't avoid accountability when the charge to which they committed by their signature clearly states they are to, "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

So untrue.

You have said you don't just want a scalp, but you act otherwise. Your only vision of accountability is public resignations followed by a Game of Thrones shame march.


Did the regents go the press and spotlight exec admin failures and any firings for the other 90%? I must have missed where regents held each other and exec admins outside of Starr accountable. To put it your way, not all scalps were taken.....to put it my way, not everyone responsible for our systemic failures has been held accountable.

Never seen Game of Thrones. If there's a shame walk, there are several who need to take it.

A very public mea culpa is accountability by most standards, just not your standards. That mea culpa was the FofF and there was zero obligation to put that out for public consumption. They did. That is just not good enough for you and that likely would not even exist if not for a football coach being fired.


So they didn't have to publicize? The 90% appreciates your honesty about not being obligated. And consequences for the remainder at fault?

Most business record something in a performance evaluation and / HR files. The employee is educated trained and behavior is changed or altered or the next round of performance evaluations results in termination or demotion. Most businesses as well as college and universities don't make this public. In fact there are some laws making protecting privacy that even prevent this.

Also lost in this discussion if the fact that most of the problems related to the admin side are the absence of people to do a job, not people doing a job wrong. When you have three people in a T9 department and you need eight to do the job things go wrong. You don't fire people in the T9 department - you hire the additional personnel. That was true for numerous departments.

Bethany McCraw and the Judicial Affairs staff hand their normal duties just fine. At one point in time T9 was handed to them in addition to what they had been doing well. They were not trained properly for T9 and did some things poorly. In 2014 when they hired a full time T9 coordinator, this was removed from JA and they went back to doing what they always did, by all accounts well. Most would not do thing to McCraw and the JA staff - what do you want? *

*side note - several errors and omissions in you Tevin Elliot 2011-2012 timeline



Please add to any facts missed. That timeline is from a news article that had pdf emails as sources. You know from day 1 all I've wanted is for all facts to be aired to see where they lead and for all parties to be held accountable with consequences.

As to your other point, I know about HR performance and behavior plans. Real companies have classification levels for poor performance/behavior and for ongoing poor performance/behavior so that the performance/behavior may be changed....Using an HR policy is a weak argument at best seeing as how Athletics was held accountable with consequences. How many exec admins outside of Starr and Athletics were fired? So what's the trigger point for severing personnel from Baylor? Is it 10% or more in a single department?

Saying that sexual assault victims didn't receive the care required by law because we were understaffed....I totally understand that was the case and I'm not arguing that because to our collective shame that was the case, but being understaffed is no excuse for not maintaining compliance.

I believe that article was a Waco Trib article. The pdf was a a plaintiff petition and not the emails, thought the emails were mentioned in lawsuit. If you ahve the emails let me know.

The only charges filed against TE was on Nov 4 2011 for the MCC girl for a misdemeanor. The DA did not think they had a case for a stronger charge. On Nov 18 2011, JA coordinator David Murdock sent TE a letter stating he was in violation of the student conduct code. Many were copied on this letter including the asst AD Bradshaw. The AD department was also given a copy of the police report.

The incident with the MCC girl occurred Sept 28, 2011. Sometime after that date it was know he was a suspect by Ramsower and Doak. No complaints were filed against TE at Baylor and the alleged victims were not Baylor students. Not sure what they really could have done until Nov 4 2011. The other incident was with a TCU in a Waco club in March 2011. FWIW Ramsower vehemently denied any knowledge of the Mach incident. We all agree Doak is a POS so who knows what he knew.

Briles kicked TE out when dna samples were taken and arrest was imminent, but he knew of Hernandez complaint to police approximately 10 days earlier.


Failure to move cases forward and reach adjudication was one of the problems cited in the findings of fact.


Thank you for the additional details. My details were pieced together from a KWTX online story and not a Trib article. The emails with dates and to/from and those cc'd were at the bottom of the screen as part of plaintiff suit in Exhibits. That's where I obtained the names and dates.

Edited to add more description: added "pieced together" and "as part of plaintiff suit in Exhibits".
Keyser Soze
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YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Chuckroast said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.



CTE must be taking its toll on your brain or you missed reading comprehension. Go back and re-read #6 slowly this time. I even quoted it for you. BTW....compliance with legal requirements applies across the university, not just athletics.

You proved my point exactly by that attachment.



I think in Thee's worldview, the athletic department operates independently from the university. Therefore, the coach is solely responsible for all compliance matters within athletics and is also solely responsible for admissions decisions of athletes. Therefore, the regents oversee the university but not the athletic department. By the way, if Baylor ever allowed itself to operate this way, it's on them, not on the coach.

And that was the BOFR's mistake day 1 in spotlighting Athletics for university-wide problems. They can't avoid accountability when the charge to which they committed by their signature clearly states they are to, "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

So untrue.

You have said you don't just want a scalp, but you act otherwise. Your only vision of accountability is public resignations followed by a Game of Thrones shame march.


Did the regents go the press and spotlight exec admin failures and any firings for the other 90%? I must have missed where regents held each other and exec admins outside of Starr accountable. To put it your way, not all scalps were taken.....to put it my way, not everyone responsible for our systemic failures has been held accountable.

Never seen Game of Thrones. If there's a shame walk, there are several who need to take it.

A very public mea culpa is accountability by most standards, just not your standards. That mea culpa was the FofF and there was zero obligation to put that out for public consumption. They did. That is just not good enough for you and that likely would not even exist if not for a football coach being fired.


So they didn't have to publicize? The 90% appreciates your honesty about not being obligated. And consequences for the remainder at fault?

Most business record something in a performance evaluation and / HR files. The employee is educated trained and behavior is changed or altered or the next round of performance evaluations results in termination or demotion. Most businesses as well as college and universities don't make this public. In fact there are some laws making protecting privacy that even prevent this.

Also lost in this discussion if the fact that most of the problems related to the admin side are the absence of people to do a job, not people doing a job wrong. When you have three people in a T9 department and you need eight to do the job things go wrong. You don't fire people in the T9 department - you hire the additional personnel. That was true for numerous departments.

Bethany McCraw and the Judicial Affairs staff hand their normal duties just fine. At one point in time T9 was handed to them in addition to what they had been doing well. They were not trained properly for T9 and did some things poorly. In 2014 when they hired a full time T9 coordinator, this was removed from JA and they went back to doing what they always did, by all accounts well. Most would not do thing to McCraw and the JA staff - what do you want? *

*side note - several errors and omissions in you Tevin Elliot 2011-2012 timeline



Please add to any facts missed. That timeline is from a news article that had pdf emails as sources. You know from day 1 all I've wanted is for all facts to be aired to see where they lead and for all parties to be held accountable with consequences.

As to your other point, I know about HR performance and behavior plans. Real companies have classification levels for poor performance/behavior and for ongoing poor performance/behavior so that the performance/behavior may be changed....Using an HR policy is a weak argument at best seeing as how Athletics was held accountable with consequences. How many exec admins outside of Starr and Athletics were fired? So what's the trigger point for severing personnel from Baylor? Is it 10% or more in a single department?

Saying that sexual assault victims didn't receive the care required by law because we were understaffed....I totally understand that was the case and I'm not arguing that because to our collective shame that was the case, but being understaffed is no excuse for not maintaining compliance.

Multiple reasons. Admin was more lack of training and being stupid, athletics had far more deliberate violation of school policy.

One key quote from a regent in Violated was (paraphrasing) "We all failed, those fired were the ones PH investigators felt were not forthcoming about past events" I know Shillinglaw lied his ass off to investigators and they busted him with information on his computer.











YoakDaddy
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Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Chuckroast said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.



CTE must be taking its toll on your brain or you missed reading comprehension. Go back and re-read #6 slowly this time. I even quoted it for you. BTW....compliance with legal requirements applies across the university, not just athletics.

You proved my point exactly by that attachment.



I think in Thee's worldview, the athletic department operates independently from the university. Therefore, the coach is solely responsible for all compliance matters within athletics and is also solely responsible for admissions decisions of athletes. Therefore, the regents oversee the university but not the athletic department. By the way, if Baylor ever allowed itself to operate this way, it's on them, not on the coach.

And that was the BOFR's mistake day 1 in spotlighting Athletics for university-wide problems. They can't avoid accountability when the charge to which they committed by their signature clearly states they are to, "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

So untrue.

You have said you don't just want a scalp, but you act otherwise. Your only vision of accountability is public resignations followed by a Game of Thrones shame march.


Did the regents go the press and spotlight exec admin failures and any firings for the other 90%? I must have missed where regents held each other and exec admins outside of Starr accountable. To put it your way, not all scalps were taken.....to put it my way, not everyone responsible for our systemic failures has been held accountable.

Never seen Game of Thrones. If there's a shame walk, there are several who need to take it.

A very public mea culpa is accountability by most standards, just not your standards. That mea culpa was the FofF and there was zero obligation to put that out for public consumption. They did. That is just not good enough for you and that likely would not even exist if not for a football coach being fired.


So they didn't have to publicize? The 90% appreciates your honesty about not being obligated. And consequences for the remainder at fault?

Most business record something in a performance evaluation and / HR files. The employee is educated trained and behavior is changed or altered or the next round of performance evaluations results in termination or demotion. Most businesses as well as college and universities don't make this public. In fact there are some laws making protecting privacy that even prevent this.

Also lost in this discussion if the fact that most of the problems related to the admin side are the absence of people to do a job, not people doing a job wrong. When you have three people in a T9 department and you need eight to do the job things go wrong. You don't fire people in the T9 department - you hire the additional personnel. That was true for numerous departments.

Bethany McCraw and the Judicial Affairs staff hand their normal duties just fine. At one point in time T9 was handed to them in addition to what they had been doing well. They were not trained properly for T9 and did some things poorly. In 2014 when they hired a full time T9 coordinator, this was removed from JA and they went back to doing what they always did, by all accounts well. Most would not do thing to McCraw and the JA staff - what do you want? *

*side note - several errors and omissions in you Tevin Elliot 2011-2012 timeline



Please add to any facts missed. That timeline is from a news article that had pdf emails as sources. You know from day 1 all I've wanted is for all facts to be aired to see where they lead and for all parties to be held accountable with consequences.

As to your other point, I know about HR performance and behavior plans. Real companies have classification levels for poor performance/behavior and for ongoing poor performance/behavior so that the performance/behavior may be changed....Using an HR policy is a weak argument at best seeing as how Athletics was held accountable with consequences. How many exec admins outside of Starr and Athletics were fired? So what's the trigger point for severing personnel from Baylor? Is it 10% or more in a single department?

Saying that sexual assault victims didn't receive the care required by law because we were understaffed....I totally understand that was the case and I'm not arguing that because to our collective shame that was the case, but being understaffed is no excuse for not maintaining compliance.

Multiple reasons. Admin was more lack of training and being stupid, athletics had far more deliberate violation of school policy.

One key quote from a regent in Violated was (paraphrasing) "We all failed, those fired were the ones PH investigators felt were not forthcoming about past events" I know Shillinglaw lied his ass off to investigators and they busted him with information on his computer.


And he should've been fired if he lied. So the threshold isn't just being out of compliance, it's being out of compliance and lying? Got it.
Keyser Soze
How long do you want to ignore this user?
YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Keyser Soze said:

YoakDaddy said:

Chuckroast said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.



CTE must be taking its toll on your brain or you missed reading comprehension. Go back and re-read #6 slowly this time. I even quoted it for you. BTW....compliance with legal requirements applies across the university, not just athletics.

You proved my point exactly by that attachment.



I think in Thee's worldview, the athletic department operates independently from the university. Therefore, the coach is solely responsible for all compliance matters within athletics and is also solely responsible for admissions decisions of athletes. Therefore, the regents oversee the university but not the athletic department. By the way, if Baylor ever allowed itself to operate this way, it's on them, not on the coach.

And that was the BOFR's mistake day 1 in spotlighting Athletics for university-wide problems. They can't avoid accountability when the charge to which they committed by their signature clearly states they are to, "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

So untrue.

You have said you don't just want a scalp, but you act otherwise. Your only vision of accountability is public resignations followed by a Game of Thrones shame march.


Did the regents go the press and spotlight exec admin failures and any firings for the other 90%? I must have missed where regents held each other and exec admins outside of Starr accountable. To put it your way, not all scalps were taken.....to put it my way, not everyone responsible for our systemic failures has been held accountable.

Never seen Game of Thrones. If there's a shame walk, there are several who need to take it.

A very public mea culpa is accountability by most standards, just not your standards. That mea culpa was the FofF and there was zero obligation to put that out for public consumption. They did. That is just not good enough for you and that likely would not even exist if not for a football coach being fired.


So they didn't have to publicize? The 90% appreciates your honesty about not being obligated. And consequences for the remainder at fault?

Most business record something in a performance evaluation and / HR files. The employee is educated trained and behavior is changed or altered or the next round of performance evaluations results in termination or demotion. Most businesses as well as college and universities don't make this public. In fact there are some laws making protecting privacy that even prevent this.

Also lost in this discussion if the fact that most of the problems related to the admin side are the absence of people to do a job, not people doing a job wrong. When you have three people in a T9 department and you need eight to do the job things go wrong. You don't fire people in the T9 department - you hire the additional personnel. That was true for numerous departments.

Bethany McCraw and the Judicial Affairs staff hand their normal duties just fine. At one point in time T9 was handed to them in addition to what they had been doing well. They were not trained properly for T9 and did some things poorly. In 2014 when they hired a full time T9 coordinator, this was removed from JA and they went back to doing what they always did, by all accounts well. Most would not do thing to McCraw and the JA staff - what do you want? *

*side note - several errors and omissions in you Tevin Elliot 2011-2012 timeline



Please add to any facts missed. That timeline is from a news article that had pdf emails as sources. You know from day 1 all I've wanted is for all facts to be aired to see where they lead and for all parties to be held accountable with consequences.

As to your other point, I know about HR performance and behavior plans. Real companies have classification levels for poor performance/behavior and for ongoing poor performance/behavior so that the performance/behavior may be changed....Using an HR policy is a weak argument at best seeing as how Athletics was held accountable with consequences. How many exec admins outside of Starr and Athletics were fired? So what's the trigger point for severing personnel from Baylor? Is it 10% or more in a single department?

Saying that sexual assault victims didn't receive the care required by law because we were understaffed....I totally understand that was the case and I'm not arguing that because to our collective shame that was the case, but being understaffed is no excuse for not maintaining compliance.

Multiple reasons. Admin was more lack of training and being stupid, athletics had far more deliberate violation of school policy.

One key quote from a regent in Violated was (paraphrasing) "We all failed, those fired were the ones PH investigators felt were not forthcoming about past events" I know Shillinglaw lied his ass off to investigators and they busted him with information on his computer.


And he should've been fired if he lied. So the threshold isn't just being out of compliance, it's being out of compliance and lying? Got it.


That is certainly an impression I had.

A quote I read from Tom Hill (who we all think got screwed) said "They (PH) think I am lying to them"

Thee University
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ScottS said:


I missed the part where the coach is a babysitter to 100 players and gets fired if 1 or 2 of them screw up.
Of course you did. I never said this. As a matter of FACT, I'm not sure anybody has ever contended 100 players because those that were the problem children were a small percentage of the entire TEAM.

1 or 2 screwed up? Here is some bedtime reading for your sweet little noggin.



When a female student-athlete reported that a football player had brandished a gun at her, the court paperwork said, Briles texted an assistant coach: "what a fool -- she reporting to authorities."

In another case, a masseuse asked the team to discipline a player who reportedly exposed himself and asked for favors during a massage, the document said Briles' first response was, "What kind of discipline... She a stripper?"

The filing also laid out the athletic department's response to allegations of gang rape by football players, including when a student-athlete told her coach that five football players had raped her at an off-campus party. The coach then took a list of names to Briles, who said, "Those are some bad dudes. Why was she around those guys?"

"The football program was a black hole into which reports of misconduct such as drug use, physical assault, domestic violence, brandishing of guns, indecent exposure and academic fraud disappeared," the court filing said.

Briles' dropped lawsuit and the new information from regents came just days after a Baylor sexual assault survivor sued the school, alleging that 31 football players committed at least 52 acts of rape between 2011 and 2014, an estimate that far exceeded what regents told The Wall Street Journal in October.

Regents said then that 19 football players had been accused of sexual or physical assault, including four alleged gang rapes, since 2011.

Hardin said regents came up with that number based on Pepper Hamilton's findings, newspaper stories and lawsuits. But Pepper Hamilton's probe was not meant to be exhaustive and did not tally every sexual assault reported.

Briles did not notify the university's disciplinary department or take any action for 10 days, until a reporter inquired about Elliott's status, the filing said.
It said that Briles also initially agreed to testify on Elliott's behalf at his trial. "We need to get your name cleared ... Always all in with my players," he reportedly texted Elliott. The coach did not appear in court, and Elliott was sentenced to 20 years in prison.

The filing also alleged that Briles used Shillinglaw to line up legal representation for the players who had run-ins with the law.

In one text exchange, after a player was arrested for assault and threatening to kill someone, the paperwork said Briles texted athletic director McCaw that he had just talked to the player, who said Waco police had agreed to "keep it quiet." Briles promised to ask Shillinglaw to check in with a local attorney.

"That would be great if they kept it quiet!" McCaw allegedly replied. He is now the athletic director at Liberty University in Virginia.

"When a college football coach goes 6-7, 5-7, and 5-7 for three consecutive years, no one blinks an eye when the coach is fired," the court filing said. "But when at least 17 women report sexual and physical assaults involving at least 19 football players, including allegations of four gang rapes, why is anyone shocked by his dismissal?"

It continued: "Briles was not a 'scapegoat' for the University's larger problems -- he was part of the larger problem. So was Shillinglaw."
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." - General Robert E. Lee
bear2be2
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ScottS said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.



I missed the part where the coach is a babysitter to 100 players and gets fired if 1 or 2 of them screw up.
A better analogy would be that of the babysitter bringing his own ****ty kid with him to your house, watching him punch your son in the face and then calling Colin Schillinglaw to try and clean up the mess before you get home.

The only reason those screw-ups were on campus was because Art brought them there and decided that his job didn't extend beyond the football field.

And if you think we only had one or two screwing up during that time period, you weren't paying a lick of attention.
Thee University
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bear2be2 said:

ScottS said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:

Thee University said:

YoakDaddy said:




How many victims didn't receive the care they needed or were required by law to receive because of being "asleep at the wheel"? Again...how many regents resigned and how many exec admins were fired as a result of their incompetence outside of Starr and Athletics? Rolling off the board isn't the same as holding themselves and each other accountable and accepting consequences.
Have you ever read the BU BOR Statement of Commitment & Responsibilities?

https://www.baylor.edu/boardofregents/doc.php/277765.pdf


That's a better question for them because it's obvious from 10 out 13 pages from the FoF and 105 Recommendations that they haven't.

Kinda looks like they whiffed big time on No. 1 by not stewarding that "caring community" then fulked up bigger on No. 6 "Provide oversight, and review and approve strategies, policies and plans for ensuring legal and ethical compliance with all applicable internal and external rules and federal, state and local laws and regulations, institute effective controls to identify and address problems;"

Thanks for proving my point.
Proving your point?

I must have missed the part where the BOR is responsible for the Athletic Department.



I missed the part where the coach is a babysitter to 100 players and gets fired if 1 or 2 of them screw up.
A better analogy would be that of the babysitter bringing his own ****ty kid with him to your house, watching him punch your son in the face and then calling Colin Schillinglaw to try and clean up the mess before you get home.

The only reason those screw-ups were on campus was because Art brought them there and decided that his job didn't extend beyond the football field.

And if you think we only had one or two screwing up during that time period, you weren't paying a lick of attention.
Excellent analogy.

Ask some in the know how many times player backpacks, duffel and travel bags were searched by officials after Baylor spent the night in hotels on road games. Clock radios, towels and a variety of other items were confiscated on a number of occasions.

If you could not see this coming from a mile away as each year passed then I might not be able to help you boys get off your knees after all.
"The education of a man is never completed until he dies." - General Robert E. Lee
Malbec
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Keyser Soze said:


I believe that article was a Waco Trib article. The pdf was a a plaintiff petition and not the emails, thought the emails were mentioned in lawsuit. If you ahve the emails let me know. ....

You are not seriously using this argument now are you? The guy who has quoted text transcriptions from a defense petition so many times that his keyboard can type it for him.
Keyser Soze
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Just pointing out I have never read said emails and can only find reference to them.

There is no debate that TE's case from the fall of 2011 did not move forward and reach adjudication. I have added that the case was known by football and many others, and not something hidden.


xiledinok
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It's clear that Briles and company would have been out in rural West Texas picking cotton and running cotton gin equipment but for the game of football.

The true Art Briles was the guy cursing and screaming for his DE to get up at the end of Michigan State. It was his fault Baby couldn't manage his offense in the 4th and Briles didn't recruit defense very well - the depth caught up with him.
Forest Bueller
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Keyser Soze said:

Just pointing out I have never read said emails and can only find reference to them.

There is no debate that TE's case from the fall of 2011 did not move forward and reach adjudication. I have added that the case was known by football and many others, and not something hidden.



Certainly Briles is not the only one with issues concerning Elliot, for 25 day after he was kicked off the team, he was still allowed to remain enrolled in the University.



Quote:

WACO, Texas (KWTX) Convicted rapist and former Baylor football player Tevin Elliott was allowed to remain on the Baylor campus and enrolled in school for 25 days after the football team suspended him indefinitely, 21 days after Waco Police arrested him, and nearly a month after a meeting between Waco PD and top university officials concerning the starting linebacker, according to documents obtained by KWTX.



If folks can't see the way Baylor handled assaults was a comprehensive Campus wide failure, there really is no starting point in discussions.
 
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