What Waco should-,of course, not my money

10,396 Views | 89 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Yogi
Old300Bear
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Waco, Temple, Killeen, Fort Hood should pool their resources and build a very nice regional airport some where in the middle, like Moody. I know Killeen has a fairly new airport but I think it sort of fizzled. With all three growing communities banded together maybe we could get decent air connections to Dallas and Houston. If necessary I would even underwrite service from Southwest. I think thi would help in the attraction of white collar jobs.
Fred Barber
boxster
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Would be great, but someone in Killeen would have to admit that he/she blew it.

What he wants people to know about Baylor football: I want people to see that Baylor is the class of college football. Record GPAs, 26 different majors, guys challenging themselves to be the best they can be. Guys working in the community and guys working to be the best they can be in football. Want people to know Baylor is a great place as a University. -Coach Matt Rhule
BBear77
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boxster said:

Would be great, but someone in Killeen Waco would have to admit that he/she blew it.
FIFY, there was a movement many years ago to build an airport but Waco wasn't interested (remember Madison Cooper Airport), thus the Killeen airport came into being.
baylrballa
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yeah, they effed that up 20 years ago, going to be a tough (expensive) fix now.
whitetrash
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An airport that is 20-30 miles from town (which Moody would be from everywhere but Belton) is convenient to no one. So if you have to make a 30-40 minute drive to catch a 30 minute flight and change planes, might as well drive 90-120 minutes and catch a nonstop.

Killeen "airport" is Gray Army Airfield, with the passenger terminal on the east (town) side and the Army terminal on the west (Ft Hood) side, with the runway in between. They only had to build a terminal and parking lot; the army provided the already built runway and apron (El Paso has a similar setup sharing the airport with Ft Bliss--I once took off from there with an F-14 on a parallel runway). Service there consists of AA to DFW and United to IAH. while Waco has only AA to DFW. Not a lot of benefit to flying thru IAH; any flight to the west or midwest would be right back over central Texas, and any flight to the northeast would be a longer flight than thru DFW. Only benefit would be to Miami/New Orleans/Mexico. And since it's about 68 miles to Killeen airport from Waco, it only saves about 20-30 minutes over the drive to Austin.

Only time Killeen was worth flying thru was when Delta flew directly to ATL; you could get to most places on the east coast without having to change in DFW. But Delta pulled out in 2018.




PartyBear
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baylrballa said:

yeah, they effed that up 20 years ago, going to be a tough (expensive) fix now.


Yeah I was going to say it wasn't that many years ago. It was around 2002. The plan shot down was for the TSTC airport to also become a new Waco Airport. That airport is pretty close to 35. It would have been perfect. The Waco/Temple/Killeen metroplexes combined now have a 720k population. That population is totally underserved airport wise, at least the Waco area portion is. I agree an airport between Waco and Temple right off of 35 would have been smart. I can assure you Waco's crappy airport is a hindrance to significant economic development in McLennan County.
CTbruin
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I would resist partnering with Killeen. The transient population down there is a problem. I know as I did business down there for 20+ years.
BaylorGuy314
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What we really need is high speed rail connecting DFW->Waco->Killeen/Temple->Austin->San Antonio with another line connecting DFW->Houston and another connecting Houston->College Station->Austin.

But I feel like, even if the support was there, that's probably 10-15 years away from a reality at best. So back to airlines...


I am somewhat surprised the Waco - DFW route is intact while the Waco-Houston route is not. From a Wacoans point of view, it's frequently a decent bit more expensive to fly from Waco to DFW then from DFW to my final destination. Adding a $200-300pp (or more) RT ticket to the itinerary adds up - especially for a family of 4. It's just easier to make the 90 minute drive to DFW and park for $10/day. In other words, it just doesn't save me THAT much hassle to fly out of DFW instead of Waco when the cost is considered. The same is true for Austin.

On the other hand, if my connecting flight was in Houston - that's a 3+ hour drive. I just recently had a flight that came into Houston. After flying all day, I had to get in my car in Houston at 630pm (flight landed around 545PM) and make a 3.5 hour drive to Waco. Sucked. I don't know how much I'd pay to fly RT in lieu of making the drive but when you consider a tank of gas plus parking, it's certainly becomes monetarily justifiable for one person and, depending on cost, might be logistically superior for a family.

I am completely ignorant on airlines (legalities, flight plan approvals, operating costs, etc) but buying two or three ATR42s or Embraer regional jets and running them a few times daily between Houston->Waco and Waco-> Houston would give people an option for connecting flights.

Just a thought. It may be the demand simply isn't there for daily service between Waco and Houston. To me, it seems more logical than flying from Waco to DFW but I admit I may be ignorant here.
trey3216
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whitetrash said:

An airport that is 20-30 miles from town (which Moody would be from everywhere but Belton) is convenient to no one. So if you have to make a 30-40 minute drive to catch a 30 minute flight and change planes, might as well drive 90-120 minutes and catch a nonstop.

Killeen "airport" is Gray Army Airfield, with the passenger terminal on the east (town) side and the Army terminal on the west (Ft Hood) side, with the runway in between. They only had to build a terminal and parking lot; the army provided the already built runway and apron (El Paso has a similar setup sharing the airport with Ft Bliss--I once took off from there with an F-14 on a parallel runway). Service there consists of AA to DFW and United to IAH. while Waco has only AA to DFW. Not a lot of benefit to flying thru IAH; any flight to the west or midwest would be right back over central Texas, and any flight to the northeast would be a longer flight than thru DFW. Only benefit would be to Miami/New Orleans/Mexico. And since it's about 68 miles to Killeen airport from Waco, it only saves about 20-30 minutes over the drive to Austin.

Only time Killeen was worth flying thru was when Delta flew directly to ATL; you could get to most places on the east coast without having to change in DFW. But Delta pulled out in 2018.






I flew Killeen>DFW>LAS in Jan '02 for like $87. One and only time. Didn't have to pay for parking either, but was happy my car was there when I got back.
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Stranger
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CTbruin said:

I would resist partnering with Killeen. The transient population down there is a problem. I know as I did business down there for 20+ years.

Agreed
Stranger
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Waco had a chance to upgrade James Connally Air Force base and instead sunk more money into Madison Cooper.

Connally has the longest runway in Texas (the Concorde has landed there) and is adjacent to I-35.

Madison Cooper is hard to get to and cannot land anything as big as a Southwest 737. Waco screwed the pooch on that one.
BearCPA
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As someone that works in Killeen, the transient population would be great for air traffic. There are constant family members flying into and out of the area all year long.
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4th and Inches
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Stranger said:

Waco had a chance to upgrade James Connally Air Force base and instead sunk more money into Madison Cooper.

Connally has the longest runway in Texas (the Concorde has landed there) and is adjacent to I-35.

Madison Cooper is hard to get to and cannot land anything as big as a Southwest 737. Waco screwed the pooch on that one.
yep
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CorsicanaBear
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Quote:

Madison Cooper is hard to get to and cannot land anything as big as a Southwest 737.
737's at ACT all the time. 1-19 is 7100 feet. The football charters from KSU, ISU, WVU etc into there are larger than 737's (757's??). So is the BU charter.

Waco needs to consider what it wants to do with its municipal airport because it can never be more than it is. But mid sized airliners operate in and out of there all the time.
Illigitimus non carborundum
ABC BEAR
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Stranger said:

Waco had a chance to upgrade James Connally Air Force base and instead sunk more money into Madison Cooper.

Connally has the longest runway in Texas (the Concorde has landed there) and is adjacent to I-35.

Madison Cooper is hard to get to and cannot land anything as big as a Southwest 737. Waco screwed the pooch on that one.
Is there any chance of revisiting that decision or is it too far gone?
Stranger
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ABC BEAR said:

Stranger said:

Waco had a chance to upgrade James Connally Air Force base and instead sunk more money into Madison Cooper.

Connally has the longest runway in Texas (the Concorde has landed there) and is adjacent to I-35.

Madison Cooper is hard to get to and cannot land anything as big as a Southwest 737. Waco screwed the pooch on that one.
Is there any chance of revisiting that decision or is it too far gone?


Might have been mistaken about 737s but Air Force One couldn't land there.
Wichitabear
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I would love that!!!
PartyBear
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I have heard of high speed rail plans from DFW to SA with a leg to Houston and a stop in Waco. But that was a couple of years ago. The train zips as quickly as a commercial airline according to the plan so these train rides would not be long to anywhere from any spot on the track. There has been talk of that just an fyi.
TechDawgMc
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The problem with flying out of Killeen or Waco is how often you get cancelled flights and that it really is about as convenient to just drive to DFW (or Austin from down Temple way). So why pay extra and risk getting stuck in Dallasplus you can't fly Southwest out of those places. Don't see how a newer airport would help. High speed rail going to the airport would make more sense
Funky Town Bear
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PartyBear said:

I have heard of high speed rail plans from DFW to SA with a leg to Houston and a stop in Waco. But that was a couple of years ago. The train zips as quickly as a commercial airline according to the plan so these train rides would not be long to anywhere from any spot on the track. There has been talk of that just an fyi.
Bullet train from Dallas to Houston is full speed ahead. I've had a couple of different conversations with their media relations person. She is really impressive. They are saying start construction this year. But there is nothing working with connecting the Triangle currently. It's all private money and they want to prove ridership and viability.

https://www.texascentral.com/
CorsicanaBear
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Somebody else sort of said this earlier but I'll be a little more direct. Given the proximity of DAL, DFW and AUS to Waco, you could build all the airport you wanted and no one would fly from it. It is extremely unlikely that the Waco area will ever be served by anything but regional jets feeding the AA hub at DFW. It would be really nice to be able to fly into the United hub at IAH as well and I don't really understand why that service does not exist.
Illigitimus non carborundum
BBear77
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CorsicanaBear said:

Somebody else sort of said this earlier but I'll be a little more direct. Given the proximity of DAL, DFW and AUS to Waco, you could build all the airport you wanted and no one would fly from it. It is extremely unlikely that the Waco area will ever be served by anything but regional jets feeding the AA hub at DFW. It would be really nice to be able to fly into the United hub at IAH as well and I don't really understand why that service does not exist.
This might answer your question.

https://www.chron.com/business/article/Small-airports-struggle-as-major-carriers-pull-3885302.php
UBBY
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Fantasy talk.. national airport that costs less than dfw or austin.
Bear Doc
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Funky Town Bear said:

PartyBear said:

I have heard of high speed rail plans from DFW to SA with a leg to Houston and a stop in Waco. But that was a couple of years ago. The train zips as quickly as a commercial airline according to the plan so these train rides would not be long to anywhere from any spot on the track. There has been talk of that just an fyi.
Bullet train from Dallas to Houston is full speed ahead. I've had a couple of different conversations with their media relations person. She is really impressive. They are saying start construction this year. But there is nothing working with connecting the Triangle currently. It's all private money and they want to prove ridership and viability.

https://www.texascentral.com/
Like more impressive than Ben Sims' sister? How sweaty was she?
BaylorHistory
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I don't mind the drive to DFW, DAL, AUS, IAH, or HOU for a flight, but then again I fly roughly 2 times a year and only then for vacation. I'm not sure the CenTex airport plan would've been that successful. How many nonstop services would a CenTex Airport really get? Temple/Killeen are close enough to AUS and Waco is close enough to DFW & AUS where no one would want to make an extra stop if they were driving 30 minutes anyway.
“People who live in glass houses...have to answer the door."
ABC BEAR
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I have heard a variety of high-speed rail pitches around the country in the past 30 years, most are slick and well presented. What ultimately comes from the conversation is the acknowledgment that if it were a profitable venture, private enterprise would already have the market cornered.

WILLIS
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ABC BEAR said:

I have heard a variety of high-speed rail pitches around the country in the past 30 years, most are slick and well presented. What ultimately comes from the conversation is the acknowledgment that if it were a profitable venture, private enterprise would already have the market cornered.



Sidewalks, roads, airports, highways, transportation as a whole is not profitable. Airlines would **** themselves if they had to pay for the airports, runways, no tax breaks, etc. -- They are all publicly funded. Why should high speed passenger rail not be as well? Hate this argument.
boxster
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WILLIS said:

ABC BEAR said:

I have heard a variety of high-speed rail pitches around the country in the past 30 years, most are slick and well presented. What ultimately comes from the conversation is the acknowledgment that if it were a profitable venture, private enterprise would already have the market cornered.



Sidewalks, roads, airports, highways, transportation as a whole is not profitable. Airlines would **** themselves if they had to pay for the airports, runways, no tax breaks, etc. -- They are all publicly funded. Why should high speed passenger rail not be as well? Hate this argument.
I love this argument. Sadly, it's successfully made all too rarely, as evidenced by local, state and national indebtedness.

What he wants people to know about Baylor football: I want people to see that Baylor is the class of college football. Record GPAs, 26 different majors, guys challenging themselves to be the best they can be. Guys working in the community and guys working to be the best they can be in football. Want people to know Baylor is a great place as a University. -Coach Matt Rhule
Mr Tulip
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Brian Ethridge
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Staff
Funky Town Bear said:

PartyBear said:

I have heard of high speed rail plans from DFW to SA with a leg to Houston and a stop in Waco. But that was a couple of years ago. The train zips as quickly as a commercial airline according to the plan so these train rides would not be long to anywhere from any spot on the track. There has been talk of that just an fyi.
Bullet train from Dallas to Houston is full speed ahead. I've had a couple of different conversations with their media relations person. She is really impressive. They are saying start construction this year. But there is nothing working with connecting the Triangle currently. It's all private money and they want to prove ridership and viability.

https://www.texascentral.com/
Waiting for them to break ground. Funny that it stops (has a stop) in Brazos County and they're protesting it the most.
Funky Town Bear
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Brian Ethridge said:

Funky Town Bear said:

PartyBear said:

I have heard of high speed rail plans from DFW to SA with a leg to Houston and a stop in Waco. But that was a couple of years ago. The train zips as quickly as a commercial airline according to the plan so these train rides would not be long to anywhere from any spot on the track. There has been talk of that just an fyi.
Bullet train from Dallas to Houston is full speed ahead. I've had a couple of different conversations with their media relations person. She is really impressive. They are saying start construction this year. But there is nothing working with connecting the Triangle currently. It's all private money and they want to prove ridership and viability.

https://www.texascentral.com/
Waiting for them to break ground. Funny that it stops (has a stop) in Brazos County and they're protesting it the most.
If I was the train, I would just say screw you and skip that stop. It would make the commute between the two cities faster. It's frightening to think that this train ride will likely be shorter than drive from Collin County to downtown for rush hour commuters when it's all said and done.
BaylorGuy314
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This brings up an interesting discussion.

Assuming you could pick, say, 5 *DAILY* destinations that you could fly direct out of Waco to, what would you pick?

Personally, I'd leave Austin and Dallas off the list. Not because I'm not a fan - in fact, I love flying out of both of those. I simply think that it's hard to justify many flights per day between the those two locations and Waco given that the total drive time is 90 minutes or less. It's convenient to have flights between the two and I'm sure some people would use it but it seems like most people would just drive.

Back to it, if I had to pick 5 direct flights:


I'd say:

Waco <-> Hobby (gets you to houston and Southwest hub)
Waco <-> Denver (get you to the mountains and access to West Coast routes)
Waco <-> Atlanta (gets you to East Cost routes and international connections)
Waco <-> Chicago (gets you up North)
Waco <-> Miami (similar to Atlanta; Gets you to East Coast, international routes, and Caribbean)

There are others I'd consider (Las Vegas, Phoenix, SLC, etc) but five above take you to major airports that are HUBs for mainstream airlines (United, American, Delta, Southwest) and put you in a position to connect to major flights to basically every city in the US and tons of international destinations.
Wichitabear
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I would use this form of travel all the time if it were available
Yogi
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Old300Bear said:

Waco, Temple, Killeen, Fort Hood should pool their resources and build a very nice regional airport some where in the middle, like Moody. I know Killeen has a fairly new airport but I think it sort of fizzled. With all three growing communities banded together maybe we could get decent air connections to Dallas and Houston. If necessary I would even underwrite service from Southwest. I think thi would help in the attraction of white collar jobs.
I have said the same thing, but the location has to be on Interstate 35, the Main Street of Texas. Somewhere between Eddy and Troy would be ideal. It is a great idea and much more efficient than having two regional airports in the area. The time for that idea passed, however, when Killeen-Fort Hood Regional was built.

There already is a combined chamber of commerce known as "Grand Central Texas". I still prefer the "Centroplex" or "Heart of Texas" myself.

As someone who does business in all three metros, I also would like to see the area work together to enhance the regional economy. The three areas (Waco, Temple-Belton, Killeen-Heights-Cove) are all economically and even geographically diverse and really add to the potential of the area as a whole.
Wichitabear
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When I was at Baylor, I flew all the time from Waco to Dallas and then caught AA to Amarillo. I had to pray they got my luggage on the next flight. It was tight once or twice.
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