What Waco should-,of course, not my money

10,469 Views | 89 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Yogi
BaylorGuy314
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Trey is right on.

Trains of the past stopped being used because they were slow. It wasn't faster. It wasn't easier. It wasn't cheaper.

In 40 years, we'll be able to quickly summon a car (likely driver-less) to wherever we are, jump in, and have it take us to whereever we want to go. Some view this is as a crazy pipedream but I view it as as a near-certainty because:

(A) It will be cheaper
(B) It was be easier
(C) It will be faster
(D) It will be more efficient
(E) It will be safer

If you make something cheaper, faster, safer, and easier the marketplace will always gravitate that direction.

Many people are still likely to own cars but it's far more likely that the average family will have a single car than have multiple cars that sit, unused, 20 hours out of a 24 hour day.


Consider this:

By 2060-

DFW will be twice the size and be bigger than the entire LA region with over 14 million people.
Austin-San Marcos-San Antonio will be bigger than DFW.
Waco will be 600K people (or more)
Killeen-Belton-Temple will be 750K people (or more)

There will literally be more people living in the I-35 corridor between San Antonio and DFW than live in entire state of Texas (combined) today.

As cities grow larger geographically and grow denser, alternative modes of transportation have to be considered. Adding a few lanes to 35 each direction isn't the solution.

High speed rail will be substantially faster than getting in car or plane and it will be less hassle. As people have fewer cars, it's possible that it will be cheaper as well. (The idea that it's more expensive to take a train or plane vs drive is based on the assumption that all families will have multiple vehicles already and that it's a sunk cost but that simply won't be the case in 40 years.)

In short, I believe we need a multi-prong approach here. We can't shove 20 million more people on Texas highways - expanded or not - and expect that to be an efficient form of moving people around, logistically or financially.

The hard part of any large project like this is that you have to be able to look at least one generation into the future - and maybe even further - to really see the peak benefit. And it's hard to get people to spend today's dollars on something that won't benefit them for that long in the future. They'd rather spend $15 million dollars a mile upgrading I-35 two lanes at a time than focus on long term solutions.

For clarity - I'm not saying this should be forced down Texans throats. It needs to be decided by Texans for the benefit of Texans. But I do think a very real discussion on what this state will look like in 40 years need to be thought about because now is the time to plant these seeds so we can reap the reward in the future when it will be most needed.


trey3216
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Thanks B.

I mean, think about it. We're already at the point in Waco where if you live anywhere in town, it would actually be cheaper on a monthly basis for 1 partner in a marriage to drop a vehicle that's solely used for back and forth to work transport.

You can seriously get just about anywhere in Waco for a $10 Uber ride during regular hours. Twice/day 20 days/month is $400. That's less than most car payments, then factor in gas and insurance. It's a very real idea that too many people think they're "too hamstrung" by. Get real. A family could easily get by on 1 vehicle if you did it properly. Uber will take you just about anywhere. If the wife needed to pick up the kids, you could drive your car to her and Uber back to the office. You could seriously cut costs out by not dealing with it.

Then factor in the weekend trip to Dallas. I drove to the depot, or Uber there, take high speed rail to downtown, and Uber wherever I want to go. Even to mom and dad's house in garland. Not to mention I can take Dart from Mockingbird to Garland and take a $8 ride in Uber to momma's.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
PartyBear said:

baylrballa said:

yeah, they effed that up 20 years ago, going to be a tough (expensive) fix now.


Yeah I was going to say it wasn't that many years ago. It was around 2002. The plan shot down was for the TSTC airport to also become a new Waco Airport. That airport is pretty close to 35. It would have been perfect. The Waco/Temple/Killeen metroplexes combined now have a 720k population. That population is totally underserved airport wise, at least the Waco area portion is. I agree an airport between Waco and Temple right off of 35 would have been smart. I can assure you Waco's crappy airport is a hindrance to significant economic development in McLennan County.
Yea TSTC would have been ideal.
Redbrickbear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Yogi said:

High speed rail is pushed by politicians for the same reason that mass transit is:

It effectively changes the perspective of the American citizen from freedom and independence on the road to one of having to follow along in one direction with everyone else where someone better than you is leading you.

It's all about the mindset.

Other than that, rail is too expensive and cannot replicate the advantages of vehicle and airplane travel.
Yea rail only works in highly densely populated nations.....and ones that put the rail in 100 years ago when it was much cheaper to buy land.

So Japan with a pop of 120 million and is the size of California.....makes sense for the to have it.

Britain with a pop of 55 million and is the size of Wyoming.

Germany with a pop of 80 million and is the size of Montana.

They all built their rail lines back in the 1870s-1910s

Its just too expensive to do commuter rail traffic in America today.........we are far to spread out population wise and the land prices are now far to high......plus America was the home of car travel for a reason.

Only maybe in the densely packed D.C. to New England corridor could it really work here in the USA.

That does not mean of course that other nations should always follow our way of doing things.

Densely packed Asian and African developing nations should defiantly be interested in commuter rail.
PartyBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I digress here but since you brought up Asia, and Africa. I'm not sure if many folks here would be paying attention to China's "Belt and Road" program. Essentially it is their Marshall plan for most of the world including eastern Europe to advance everyone infrastructure wise and physically connect most of the world to China. We need to keep up or there will be a Pax China by 2050.
lrwells50
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BaylorGuy314 said:

Trey is right on.

Trains of the past stopped being used because they were slow. It wasn't faster. It wasn't easier. It wasn't cheaper.

In 40 years, we'll be able to quickly summon a car (likely driver-less) to wherever we are, jump in, and have it take us to whereever we want to go. Some view this is as a crazy pipedream but I view it as as a near-certainty because:

(A) It will be cheaper
(B) It was be easier
(C) It will be faster
(D) It will be more efficient
(E) It will be safer

If you make something cheaper, faster, safer, and easier the marketplace will always gravitate that direction.

Many people are still likely to own cars but it's far more likely that the average family will have a single car than have multiple cars that sit, unused, 20 hours out of a 24 hour day.


Consider this:

By 2060-

DFW will be twice the size and be bigger than the entire LA region with over 14 million people.
Austin-San Marcos-San Antonio will be bigger than DFW.
Waco will be 600K people (or more)
Killeen-Belton-Temple will be 750K people (or more)

There will literally be more people living in the I-35 corridor between San Antonio and DFW than live in entire state of Texas (combined) today.

As cities grow larger geographically and grow denser, alternative modes of transportation have to be considered. Adding a few lanes to 35 each direction isn't the solution.

High speed rail will be substantially faster than getting in car or plane and it will be less hassle. As people have fewer cars, it's possible that it will be cheaper as well. (The idea that it's more expensive to take a train or plane vs drive is based on the assumption that all families will have multiple vehicles already and that it's a sunk cost but that simply won't be the case in 40 years.)

In short, I believe we need a multi-prong approach here. We can't shove 20 million more people on Texas highways - expanded or not - and expect that to be an efficient form of moving people around, logistically or financially.

The hard part of any large project like this is that you have to be able to look at least one generation into the future - and maybe even further - to really see the peak benefit. And it's hard to get people to spend today's dollars on something that won't benefit them for that long in the future. They'd rather spend $15 million dollars a mile upgrading I-35 two lanes at a time than focus on long term solutions.

For clarity - I'm not saying this should be forced down Texans throats. It needs to be decided by Texans for the benefit of Texans. But I do think a very real discussion on what this state will look like in 40 years need to be thought about because now is the time to plant these seeds so we can reap the reward in the future when it will be most needed.



If this comes to fruition by 2060, I won't be here to use it, but would have had to pay for it.
Kyle
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I love the idea of rail if it can be done practically. To another poster's point, would it make sense to put the stations at major airports since they already have the necessary infrastructure to support the last-mile? Just run rail from DFW - IAH and use existing parking / rental car / taxi / etc. structure already in place.
trey3216
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Kyle said:

I love the idea of rail if it can be done practically. To another poster's point, would it make sense to put the stations at major airports since they already have the necessary infrastructure to support the last-mile? Just run rail from DFW - IAH and use existing parking / rental car / taxi / etc. structure already in place.
DFW doesn't make much sense IMO. I'd think moreso Love and Alliance on the Northside. That old mall close to the 610/10/45 interchange in Houston would be a great spot in terms of parking.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
SSadler
How long do you want to ignore this user?
lrwells50 said:

BaylorGuy314 said:

Trey is right on.

Trains of the past stopped being used because they were slow. It wasn't faster. It wasn't easier. It wasn't cheaper.

In 40 years, we'll be able to quickly summon a car (likely driver-less) to wherever we are, jump in, and have it take us to whereever we want to go. Some view this is as a crazy pipedream but I view it as as a near-certainty because:

(A) It will be cheaper
(B) It was be easier
(C) It will be faster
(D) It will be more efficient
(E) It will be safer

If you make something cheaper, faster, safer, and easier the marketplace will always gravitate that direction.

Many people are still likely to own cars but it's far more likely that the average family will have a single car than have multiple cars that sit, unused, 20 hours out of a 24 hour day.


Consider this:

By 2060-

DFW will be twice the size and be bigger than the entire LA region with over 14 million people.
Austin-San Marcos-San Antonio will be bigger than DFW.
Waco will be 600K people (or more)
Killeen-Belton-Temple will be 750K people (or more)

There will literally be more people living in the I-35 corridor between San Antonio and DFW than live in entire state of Texas (combined) today.

As cities grow larger geographically and grow denser, alternative modes of transportation have to be considered. Adding a few lanes to 35 each direction isn't the solution.

High speed rail will be substantially faster than getting in car or plane and it will be less hassle. As people have fewer cars, it's possible that it will be cheaper as well. (The idea that it's more expensive to take a train or plane vs drive is based on the assumption that all families will have multiple vehicles already and that it's a sunk cost but that simply won't be the case in 40 years.)

In short, I believe we need a multi-prong approach here. We can't shove 20 million more people on Texas highways - expanded or not - and expect that to be an efficient form of moving people around, logistically or financially.

The hard part of any large project like this is that you have to be able to look at least one generation into the future - and maybe even further - to really see the peak benefit. And it's hard to get people to spend today's dollars on something that won't benefit them for that long in the future. They'd rather spend $15 million dollars a mile upgrading I-35 two lanes at a time than focus on long term solutions.

For clarity - I'm not saying this should be forced down Texans throats. It needs to be decided by Texans for the benefit of Texans. But I do think a very real discussion on what this state will look like in 40 years need to be thought about because now is the time to plant these seeds so we can reap the reward in the future when it will be most needed.



If this comes to fruition by 2060, I won't be here to use it, but would have had to pay for it.
Just as your parents and grandparent payed for the interstates you now vacation via.
whitetrash
How long do you want to ignore this user?
trey3216 said:

Kyle said:

I love the idea of rail if it can be done practically. To another poster's point, would it make sense to put the stations at major airports since they already have the necessary infrastructure to support the last-mile? Just run rail from DFW - IAH and use existing parking / rental car / taxi / etc. structure already in place.
DFW doesn't make much sense IMO. I'd think moreso Love and Alliance on the Northside. That old mall close to the 610/10/45 interchange in Houston would be a great spot in terms of parking.
You mean old Northline Mall in the middle of the Hood (that partially collapsed back in the late 90s and killed 3 "mallwalkers")?

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-01-31-mn-24084-story.html
SSadler
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Anybody ever read the high speed rail from London to Paris?

Sweet, quite ride.

Not an exterior or mechanical sound (other than a whrrrrr when it accelerates) and nary a bump..
trey3216
How long do you want to ignore this user?
whitetrash said:

trey3216 said:

Kyle said:

I love the idea of rail if it can be done practically. To another poster's point, would it make sense to put the stations at major airports since they already have the necessary infrastructure to support the last-mile? Just run rail from DFW - IAH and use existing parking / rental car / taxi / etc. structure already in place.
DFW doesn't make much sense IMO. I'd think moreso Love and Alliance on the Northside. That old mall close to the 610/10/45 interchange in Houston would be a great spot in terms of parking.
You mean old Northline Mall in the middle of the Hood (that partially collapsed back in the late 90s and killed 3 "mallwalkers")?

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-01-31-mn-24084-story.html
That may be the area I'm thinking of. I'm pretty sure the mall has already been torn down or at least much of it has.

I don't know.

My feeling is that in the major hubs, the terminal needs to be as close to the downtown area as possible for feasibility purposes. DFW is about 20 miles from downtown Dallas and Fort Worth alike.
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
Kyle
How long do you want to ignore this user?
trey3216 said:

Kyle said:

I love the idea of rail if it can be done practically. To another poster's point, would it make sense to put the stations at major airports since they already have the necessary infrastructure to support the last-mile? Just run rail from DFW - IAH and use existing parking / rental car / taxi / etc. structure already in place.
DFW doesn't make much sense IMO. I'd think moreso Love and Alliance on the Northside. That old mall close to the 610/10/45 interchange in Houston would be a great spot in terms of parking.
I think you missed the point.
lrwells50
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SSadler said:

Anybody ever read the high speed rail from London to Paris?

Sweet, quite ride.

Not an exterior or mechanical sound (other than a whrrrrr when it accelerates) and nary a bump..
Very smooth.
trey3216
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Kyle said:

trey3216 said:

Kyle said:

I love the idea of rail if it can be done practically. To another poster's point, would it make sense to put the stations at major airports since they already have the necessary infrastructure to support the last-mile? Just run rail from DFW - IAH and use existing parking / rental car / taxi / etc. structure already in place.
DFW doesn't make much sense IMO. I'd think moreso Love and Alliance on the Northside. That old mall close to the 610/10/45 interchange in Houston would be a great spot in terms of parking.
I think you missed the point.
if you've seen my other posts in the thread, I didn't
Mr. Treehorn treats objects like women, man.
TechDawgMc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SSadler said:

Anybody ever read the high speed rail from London to Paris?

Sweet, quite ride.

Not an exterior or mechanical sound (other than a whrrrrr when it accelerates) and nary a bump..
It's fabulous and certainly not as expensive as most air travel in the US (and WAY superior). Granted, if you're I willing to put up with all the nuisances you can fly RyanAir cheaper in Europe but we don't have that here. Train travel is a much better way to travel than air travel, but you would have to find ways to make the "last mile" work better than it currently would in a place like Dallas or Houston.
lrwells50
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SSadler said:

lrwells50 said:

BaylorGuy314 said:

Trey is right on.

Trains of the past stopped being used because they were slow. It wasn't faster. It wasn't easier. It wasn't cheaper.

In 40 years, we'll be able to quickly summon a car (likely driver-less) to wherever we are, jump in, and have it take us to whereever we want to go. Some view this is as a crazy pipedream but I view it as as a near-certainty because:

(A) It will be cheaper
(B) It was be easier
(C) It will be faster
(D) It will be more efficient
(E) It will be safer

If you make something cheaper, faster, safer, and easier the marketplace will always gravitate that direction.

Many people are still likely to own cars but it's far more likely that the average family will have a single car than have multiple cars that sit, unused, 20 hours out of a 24 hour day.


Consider this:

By 2060-

DFW will be twice the size and be bigger than the entire LA region with over 14 million people.
Austin-San Marcos-San Antonio will be bigger than DFW.
Waco will be 600K people (or more)
Killeen-Belton-Temple will be 750K people (or more)

There will literally be more people living in the I-35 corridor between San Antonio and DFW than live in entire state of Texas (combined) today.

As cities grow larger geographically and grow denser, alternative modes of transportation have to be considered. Adding a few lanes to 35 each direction isn't the solution.

High speed rail will be substantially faster than getting in car or plane and it will be less hassle. As people have fewer cars, it's possible that it will be cheaper as well. (The idea that it's more expensive to take a train or plane vs drive is based on the assumption that all families will have multiple vehicles already and that it's a sunk cost but that simply won't be the case in 40 years.)

In short, I believe we need a multi-prong approach here. We can't shove 20 million more people on Texas highways - expanded or not - and expect that to be an efficient form of moving people around, logistically or financially.

The hard part of any large project like this is that you have to be able to look at least one generation into the future - and maybe even further - to really see the peak benefit. And it's hard to get people to spend today's dollars on something that won't benefit them for that long in the future. They'd rather spend $15 million dollars a mile upgrading I-35 two lanes at a time than focus on long term solutions.

For clarity - I'm not saying this should be forced down Texans throats. It needs to be decided by Texans for the benefit of Texans. But I do think a very real discussion on what this state will look like in 40 years need to be thought about because now is the time to plant these seeds so we can reap the reward in the future when it will be most needed.



If this comes to fruition by 2060, I won't be here to use it, but would have had to pay for it.
Just as your parents and grandparent payed for the interstates you now vacation via.
True. I'm not against high speed rail, but I predict most people won't be willing to look that far into the future to fund it anytime soon.
Kyle
How long do you want to ignore this user?
BaylorGuy314 said:

Trey is right on.

Trains of the past stopped being used because they were slow. It wasn't faster. It wasn't easier. It wasn't cheaper.

In 40 years, we'll be able to quickly summon a car (likely driver-less) to wherever we are, jump in, and have it take us to whereever we want to go. Some view this is as a crazy pipedream but I view it as as a near-certainty because:

(A) It will be cheaper
(B) It was be easier
(C) It will be faster
(D) It will be more efficient
(E) It will be safer

If you make something cheaper, faster, safer, and easier the marketplace will always gravitate that direction.

Many people are still likely to own cars but it's far more likely that the average family will have a single car than have multiple cars that sit, unused, 20 hours out of a 24 hour day.


Consider this:

By 2060-

DFW will be twice the size and be bigger than the entire LA region with over 14 million people.
Austin-San Marcos-San Antonio will be bigger than DFW.
Waco will be 600K people (or more)
Killeen-Belton-Temple will be 750K people (or more)

There will literally be more people living in the I-35 corridor between San Antonio and DFW than live in entire state of Texas (combined) today.

As cities grow larger geographically and grow denser, alternative modes of transportation have to be considered. Adding a few lanes to 35 each direction isn't the solution.

High speed rail will be substantially faster than getting in car or plane and it will be less hassle. As people have fewer cars, it's possible that it will be cheaper as well. (The idea that it's more expensive to take a train or plane vs drive is based on the assumption that all families will have multiple vehicles already and that it's a sunk cost but that simply won't be the case in 40 years.)

In short, I believe we need a multi-prong approach here. We can't shove 20 million more people on Texas highways - expanded or not - and expect that to be an efficient form of moving people around, logistically or financially.

The hard part of any large project like this is that you have to be able to look at least one generation into the future - and maybe even further - to really see the peak benefit. And it's hard to get people to spend today's dollars on something that won't benefit them for that long in the future. They'd rather spend $15 million dollars a mile upgrading I-35 two lanes at a time than focus on long term solutions.

For clarity - I'm not saying this should be forced down Texans throats. It needs to be decided by Texans for the benefit of Texans. But I do think a very real discussion on what this state will look like in 40 years need to be thought about because now is the time to plant these seeds so we can reap the reward in the future when it will be most needed.
I agree philosophically and am a big train fan. However, I have never seen any evidence that trains are cheaper. That seems to be the proverbial turd in the punch bowl - everything I have read demonstrated trains are less efficient from a cost perspective vs. alternatives.
Kyle
How long do you want to ignore this user?
TechDawgMc said:

SSadler said:

Anybody ever read the high speed rail from London to Paris?

Sweet, quite ride.

Not an exterior or mechanical sound (other than a whrrrrr when it accelerates) and nary a bump..
It's fabulous and certainly not as expensive as most air travel in the US (and WAY superior). Granted, if you're I willing to put up with all the nuisances you can fly RyanAir cheaper in Europe but we don't have that here. Train travel is a much better way to travel than air travel, but you would have to find ways to make the "last mile" work better than it currently would in a place like Dallas or Houston.
That was my point that you missed above. The airports have existing last mile infrastructure, so why not leverage that vs. replicating that infrastructure.
Wichitabear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I want train travel.
Yogi
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Rail would also benefit only a very few dense urban centers.

Look at what happened to cities passed by rail in the 1800's. You've never heard of most of them - because they don't exist anymore.

The country benefits environmentally, socially and economically from being spread out.

You densely populate people into a small area, and without strict controls, it becomes freaking health hazard, leftist run hell hole for everyone except for a privileged few.

Well, count me out of strict controls.
"Smarter than the Average Bear."
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.