Thoughts? The houses look beautiful and in a great natural setting. But a long haul after a night at George's or Diamondbacks. Anybody have any first hand experience?

Excellent school district

It's a long way.

To far out. Your grocery shopping probably would be done on HEB on 18th. Hell know for me.

Don't think it will be too long till HEB builds a new giant store at 19th and Lakeshore, but then again, people have been saying that for a few years now.

No doubt it's a very nice area. But it's quite far from just about everything.

In larger areas like the Metroplex, Houston, or Austin, people live far away from things because housing tends to be more affordable. In Waco this simply isn't necessary. While the Preserve is indeed a very nice area, there are lots of other very nice neighborhoods in Waco that are much more convenient and just as affordable.

I've got a lot in there ready for you to build on, if you are interested! (I'm in residential construction.)

Seriously, I think it's a great development. Beautiful homes, great schools, well-designed.

The knock is distance but I kinda think that is a overblown and perception more than reality. It definitely seems farther out than it actually is.

Consider this-

You are 11 minutes (with only one light) from the mall.

You are about 13-14 minutes to the Marketplace/Legends Crossing (hwy 35/hwy 6 intersection).

You are less than 20 minutes from Baylor with virtually no stops (185-> Hwy 6->35).

Compare that with, say, Twin Rivers or Hidden Valley or Stone Creek Ranch, etc. I used to drive that way daily (before the construction). It's about 6-7 minutes from the Old Lorena/Speegleville intersection to the mall. It's 15 minutes from that intersection to Baylor. If you live in the back of those subdivisions (such as Hidden Valley) you can add another 3-4 minutes just getting to the Old Lorena/Speegleville intersection. That's not dissimilar than the drive from the Preserve.

The strength of living on Hwy 84 is the proximity to Hewitt Drive (which has a ton on it). It's only about 5 minutes from Old Lorena/Speegleville to Hewitt Drive. Having a fantastic HEB and a Wal-Mart right there covers all of your grocery/household supplies needs or "Crap, I forgot X" type needs.

China Spring Highway doesn't have either of those and it's China Spring's biggest drawback. That said, China Spring Highway has dramatically improved and has far more retail than it had 5-10 years ago. I imagine that will only continue to occur over the next 5-10 years. I know Brookshire's near about inked a deal to go into China Spring about 4 years ago but then put on the brakes because HEB start rustling about (again). But I digress...

I guess what I'm saying is that the difference between living in, say, Hidden Valley (which I love and am not knocking at all - just using it as a base for comparison) and Preserve is not much, depending on where you work and where you play. Both about 10 minutes to the mall. Both about 10-15 minutes to the Marketplace/Legends Crossing. Both about 15-20 minutes to Baylor/downtown.

TL; DR for the above post - It's not near as far out as you think. Add 3-4 minutes compared to living in one of the similarly priced neighborhoods on the Hwy 84 corridor.

314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

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Yes

Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

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HEB bought 25 acres at the corner of 19th and Lake Shore back in 2006. They still own it so I believe their intention is, legitimately, to put a location there. But I don't know timeline and every time another chain comes looking at that China Spring area, HEB seems to ramp up discussions as a scare tactic.

BaylorGuy314 said:

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Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

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HEB bought 25 acres at the corner of 19th and Lake Shore back in 2006. They still own it so I believe their intention is, legitimately, to put a location there. But I don't know timeline and every time another chain comes looking at that China Spring area, HEB seems to ramp up discussions as a scare tactic.

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Yeah, and it's a reasonable fear on the part of any competitive grocery store like Brookshire's. HEB is the 800 pound gorilla in the Texas supermarket industry. If I was Brookshire's I would want to stay as far away as reasonably possible from one of their stores. I remember when Walmart was opening on Hewitt Drive a number of folks suggested this would hurt the HEB at the corner of Hwy 84 and Estates Drive. Personally, I thought it might negatively impact HEB as well. But, I don't think it did a damn thing. HEB continues to blow and go.

BaylorGuy314 said:

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Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

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HEB bought 25 acres at the corner of 19th and Lake Shore back in 2006. They still own it so I believe their intention is, legitimately, to put a location there. But I don't know timeline and every time another chain comes looking at that China Spring area, HEB seems to ramp up discussions as a scare tactic.

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I do a lot of business with and work closely with HEB store planners, I can tell you as of right now there is zero talk internally of building on that property. They always say that might change, but they're much more focused on growing Houston, Austin, & SA.

As for living in the Preserve or CS area, it's as my good friend crash would say "Waco-far"... It's not really that far to anything, people in Waco just don't like going further than 15 minutes for anything.

Volunteer said:

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BaylorGuy314 said:

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Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

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HEB bought 25 acres at the corner of 19th and Lake Shore back in 2006. They still own it so I believe their intention is, legitimately, to put a location there. But I don't know timeline and every time another chain comes looking at that China Spring area, HEB seems to ramp up discussions as a scare tactic.

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Yeah, and it's a reasonable fear on the part of any competitive grocery store like Brookshire's. HEB is the 800 pound gorilla in the Texas supermarket industry. If I was Brookshire's I would want to stay as far away as reasonably possible from one of their stores. I remember when Walmart was opening on Hewitt Drive a number of folks suggested this would hurt the HEB at the corner of Hwy 84 and Estates Drive. Personally, I thought it might negatively impact HEB as well. But, I don't think it did a damn thing. HEB continues to blow and go.

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Absolutely. I get it. Brookshires is a great operation but they can't compete with the big boys (Wal-Mart and HEB being the biggest in Texas). They thrive in places like China Spring but if they pushed forward and then an HEB came along 5 years later, it would be a huge loss for them, financially.

Strategically, I get why HEB did what they did. They were likely looking at the map of Waco at the time (they bought the land not long after they opened in Woodway) and recognized the growth pattern and took advantage, knowing that the 19th street store was not long for this world. Frankly, this was pre-mortgage crisis so they likely thought the CS growth was going to accelerate faster than it has (even though it has grown substantially).

Still, I wish someone would push forward out there. I can't blame anyone for being scared of HEB and, frankly, they should be. But China Spring is a great school district and great area. It has plenty of room to grow but needs more retail. If a decent grocery chain was a certainty in the near future, I think you'd see increased growth which would fuel additional retail, which would fuel growth, etc, and it would really take off.

Rog said:

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BaylorGuy314 said:

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Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

---

HEB bought 25 acres at the corner of 19th and Lake Shore back in 2006. They still own it so I believe their intention is, legitimately, to put a location there. But I don't know timeline and every time another chain comes looking at that China Spring area, HEB seems to ramp up discussions as a scare tactic.

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I do a lot of business with and work closely with HEB store planners, I can tell you as of right now there is zero talk internally of building on that property. They always say that might change, but they're much more focused on growing Houston, Austin, & SA.

As for living in the Preserve or CS area, it's as my good friend crash would say "Waco-far"... It's not really that far to anything, people in Waco just don't like going further than 15 minutes for anything.

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Good insight, thanks.

And I agree on the "Waco-far" comment.

I used to drive 28 miles to work when I lived in Houston. If traffic was non-existent (a rare thing), it would take me about 25-30 minutes. But it frequently took 60 minutes. It was most commonly in-between. Like many people in Houston (and probably DFW as well- I've never lived there), I spent at least one - and sometimes two - hours each day in a car just getting to/from work.

However, even though I was nearly 30 miles from work, I was only about 7 miles to the closest grocery store (Walmart). "Civilization" FELT closer because of the density although that drive to Walmart frequently took 10-15 minutes, depending on how many lights I hit.

Compare that to the Preserve -

10 minutes (11 miles) from the mall with rarely any traffic
15 minutes (13 miles) from the marketplace with rarely any traffic
15 minutes (14 miles) from the Woodway HEB with rarely any traffic
20 minutes (18 miles) from Baylor

All of the above with few stops.

In short, if you are used to Waco - that all seems super far. But compared to what I used to do in Houston, it's sooooo easy, especially considering how it would be to hit any type of restrictive traffic for that daily trek. Even the drive from the Preserve to the Woodway HEB is not all that different than the distance to Wal-Mart back in Houston, which was closer as the crow flies but took me nearly as long to get to with all the stop and go.

"Waco-far" is a thing. A few years after I moved here, I bought a home in Sunwest (out on Hwy 84). I can't tell you how many people commented on how "far out" I lived. I was like...dude, I'm 10 minutes from the mall, 10 minutes from work, and like 7 minutes from HEB/Wal-Mart in Hewitt. I could spend 5 minutes sitting at a single traffic light in Houston...

BaylorGuy314 said:

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Volunteer said:

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BaylorGuy314 said:

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Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

---

HEB bought 25 acres at the corner of 19th and Lake Shore back in 2006. They still own it so I believe their intention is, legitimately, to put a location there. But I don't know timeline and every time another chain comes looking at that China Spring area, HEB seems to ramp up discussions as a scare tactic.

---

Yeah, and it's a reasonable fear on the part of any competitive grocery store like Brookshire's. HEB is the 800 pound gorilla in the Texas supermarket industry. If I was Brookshire's I would want to stay as far away as reasonably possible from one of their stores. I remember when Walmart was opening on Hewitt Drive a number of folks suggested this would hurt the HEB at the corner of Hwy 84 and Estates Drive. Personally, I thought it might negatively impact HEB as well. But, I don't think it did a damn thing. HEB continues to blow and go.

---

Absolutely. I get it. Brookshires is a great operation but they can't compete with the big boys (Wal-Mart and HEB being the biggest in Texas). They thrive in places like China Spring but if they pushed forward and then an HEB came along 5 years later, it would be a huge loss for them, financially.

Strategically, I get why HEB did what they did. They were likely looking at the map of Waco at the time (they bought the land not long after they opened in Woodway) and recognized the growth pattern and took advantage, knowing that the 19th street store was not long for this world. Frankly, this was pre-mortgage crisis so they likely thought the CS growth was going to accelerate faster than it has (even though it has grown substantially).

Still, I wish someone would push forward out there. I can't blame anyone for being scared of HEB and, frankly, they should be. But China Spring is a great school district and great area. It has plenty of room to grow but needs more retail. If a decent grocery chain was a certainty in the near future, I think you'd see increased growth which would fuel additional retail, which would fuel growth, etc, and it would really take off.

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I wonder if one of things - aside from the great sub-prime mortgage fiasco - that has somewhat restricted the growth in China Spring is that the area is not incorporated. There isn't a China Spring "town". No China Spring police force and no China Spring fire department (maybe there's a volunteer group). To be honest I haven't really kept up with the area, but maybe much of the China Spring area has already been annexed by Waco.

Volunteer said:

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BaylorGuy314 said:

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Volunteer said:

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BaylorGuy314 said:

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Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

---

HEB bought 25 acres at the corner of 19th and Lake Shore back in 2006. They still own it so I believe their intention is, legitimately, to put a location there. But I don't know timeline and every time another chain comes looking at that China Spring area, HEB seems to ramp up discussions as a scare tactic.

---

Yeah, and it's a reasonable fear on the part of any competitive grocery store like Brookshire's. HEB is the 800 pound gorilla in the Texas supermarket industry. If I was Brookshire's I would want to stay as far away as reasonably possible from one of their stores. I remember when Walmart was opening on Hewitt Drive a number of folks suggested this would hurt the HEB at the corner of Hwy 84 and Estates Drive. Personally, I thought it might negatively impact HEB as well. But, I don't think it did a damn thing. HEB continues to blow and go.

---

Absolutely. I get it. Brookshires is a great operation but they can't compete with the big boys (Wal-Mart and HEB being the biggest in Texas). They thrive in places like China Spring but if they pushed forward and then an HEB came along 5 years later, it would be a huge loss for them, financially.

Strategically, I get why HEB did what they did. They were likely looking at the map of Waco at the time (they bought the land not long after they opened in Woodway) and recognized the growth pattern and took advantage, knowing that the 19th street store was not long for this world. Frankly, this was pre-mortgage crisis so they likely thought the CS growth was going to accelerate faster than it has (even though it has grown substantially).

Still, I wish someone would push forward out there. I can't blame anyone for being scared of HEB and, frankly, they should be. But China Spring is a great school district and great area. It has plenty of room to grow but needs more retail. If a decent grocery chain was a certainty in the near future, I think you'd see increased growth which would fuel additional retail, which would fuel growth, etc, and it would really take off.

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I wonder if one of things - aside from the great sub-prime mortgage fiasco - that has somewhat restricted the growth in China Spring is that the area is not incorporated. There isn't a China Spring "town". No China Spring police force and no China Spring fire department (maybe there's a volunteer group). To be honest I haven't really kept up with the area, but maybe much of the China Spring area has already been annexed by Waco.

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It's possible that not being incorporated is an issue but Waco extends it's services well into China Spring, so it has pretty reliable utility and service infrastructure. I think the biggest thing that has hurt it is that most of the job growth has been on the southwest side of town (Woodway/Hewitt/etc) over the last 10 years, especially in the more white collar arena.

One of the reasons the Preserve is attractive - in my opinion - is that it's on 185, so it has quick access to Hwy 6, which puts you right in Woodway fairly quickly (10-15 minutes, depending on where you are going). But if you live in China Spring closer to the airport, it's a 20 minute trek to that same area of Waco.

If downtown grows and more jobs start being centered there, China Spring could benefit. It's about 15 minutes from downtown to the Hwy 84/Speegleville intersection (which is where a lot of residential growth has occurred over the past 10 years). It's also about 15 minutes - maybe less, depending - from China Spring (by the airport) to downtown. So if downtown area had more white collar jobs created, people might see China Spring as a more viable option.

You raise an interesting point about growth in downtown having a positive effect on China Spring. Areas around the airport are indeed a straight shot to the downtown area and with the improvements to FM1637 the travel should be pretty easy.

Has the Preserve been annexed by Waco? Woodfield is another significant development out that way that might be an annexation candidate.

Volunteer said:

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BaylorGuy314 said:

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Volunteer said:

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BaylorGuy314 said:

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Grinnin bear said:

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314, does HEB just talk about that China Spring store store to keep other stores (i.e. Brookshires) from ever making the plunge)?

---

HEB bought 25 acres at the corner of 19th and Lake Shore back in 2006. They still own it so I believe their intention is, legitimately, to put a location there. But I don't know timeline and every time another chain comes looking at that China Spring area, HEB seems to ramp up discussions as a scare tactic.

---

Yeah, and it's a reasonable fear on the part of any competitive grocery store like Brookshire's. HEB is the 800 pound gorilla in the Texas supermarket industry. If I was Brookshire's I would want to stay as far away as reasonably possible from one of their stores. I remember when Walmart was opening on Hewitt Drive a number of folks suggested this would hurt the HEB at the corner of Hwy 84 and Estates Drive. Personally, I thought it might negatively impact HEB as well. But, I don't think it did a damn thing. HEB continues to blow and go.

---

Absolutely. I get it. Brookshires is a great operation but they can't compete with the big boys (Wal-Mart and HEB being the biggest in Texas). They thrive in places like China Spring but if they pushed forward and then an HEB came along 5 years later, it would be a huge loss for them, financially.

Strategically, I get why HEB did what they did. They were likely looking at the map of Waco at the time (they bought the land not long after they opened in Woodway) and recognized the growth pattern and took advantage, knowing that the 19th street store was not long for this world. Frankly, this was pre-mortgage crisis so they likely thought the CS growth was going to accelerate faster than it has (even though it has grown substantially).

Still, I wish someone would push forward out there. I can't blame anyone for being scared of HEB and, frankly, they should be. But China Spring is a great school district and great area. It has plenty of room to grow but needs more retail. If a decent grocery chain was a certainty in the near future, I think you'd see increased growth which would fuel additional retail, which would fuel growth, etc, and it would really take off.

---

I wonder if one of things - aside from the great sub-prime mortgage fiasco - that has somewhat restricted the growth in China Spring is that the area is not incorporated. There isn't a China Spring "town". No China Spring police force and no China Spring fire department (maybe there's a volunteer group). To be honest I haven't really kept up with the area, but maybe much of the China Spring area has already been annexed by Waco.

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I believe most of China Spring has been annexed by Waco out to 185 with ETJ 5 miles outside of the city limit.

Volunteer said:

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You raise an interesting point about growth in downtown having a positive effect on China Spring. Areas around the airport are indeed a straight shot to the downtown area and with the improvements to FM1637 the travel should be pretty easy.

Has the Preserve been annexed by Waco? Woodfield is another significant development out that way that might be an annexation candidate.

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City of Waco has annexed Preserve and it has city services.

However, Waco city services end on 185 at the lake, I believe.