What the new Modern Offense means, What it takes to install

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Adriacus Peratuun
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Some people have asked about the Modern Offense mentioned as a hiring criteria and mentioned at the introduction.

First issue is terminology:

Plays, Actions, Sets, Spacing, Concepts are common terms that are sometimes used different ways.
To understand the change, you have to understand the lingo.

Sets: simply how the players are initially aligned on the court.

Examples:

5 Out: 5 player spaced on the perimeter [generally close to 3 point line]
4 Out 1 In: 4 players on perimeter and 1 player roaming the paint
Horns Set: 2 players in deep 3 point corners, 2 players at the elbows, 1 player high

Spacing:

How distant are players from one another in initial Sets and how distant they are from one another as you run Action. The more advanced the level of basketball, the greater the existence of/need for spacing.

Action: what offensive movement is used

Example:

Double baseline screen
High ball screen
Elevator screen

Those terms are fairly uniformly applied.

Plays & Concepts [sometimes referred to as Variations] are more fluid terms. That fluidity is due to differing offensive methods.

Kim Mulkey ran Set Plays [the most traditional form of offense].

Play A: Team aligns in Set X, player Y runs Action Z, other players do f, g, h, i. If the defense goes under the screen, player X flares to the 3 point line. If the defense goes over the screen, player X curls hard to dribble, elevate and shoot. Ballhandler and X are reading X's defender. If X isn't open, here is Option 2 and possibly 3. If none work, pull out and run a different play.

Mulkey's offense involved players learning a handful of plays and running them hundreds of times against various defenses [Dream Team told......defend it this way, that way, etc.]. Practices are basically mass repetition played out using changing variables.

Play [in Pattern offense]:

UConn WBB and Kentucky MBB used to be primarily Pattern offenses. Kentucky ran a pure dribble drive pattern. The same movement are repeated again and again until the defense breaks down. Players move in designated patterns. The goal is to get defenders out of position through constant motion. Another MBB version is the Princeton offense. A more complicated pattern with tons of variations [most through varying cuts due to defenders' positions]. UConn WBB ran a Slip Flow Patterned offense. Set patterns like Kentucky but with constant slip actions toward basket. They also utilized many Princeton offense concepts with back cuts. Basically, they blended the Kentucky and Princeton offenses.

Play in Modern Offense [NBA, WNBA, generally Baylor MBB]:

while there are some Set Plays for out of bounds, end of games, etc., the term generally means an identified Set & Action(s) to achieve the switches on D desired to get the most beneficial 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 matchups. This is was what Baylor MBB ran all season [including Gonzaga game]. Example: They ran predetermined "Plays" which were simply Sets/Actions to get switches resulting in Timme defending a perimeter player at the top of the key. And then they abused him. In a modern offense, plays can be unique to games/defenders but often repeatable. Getting Mitchell or Butler 1 on 1 against an opposing big. Faking a backside double screen to run a lift screen for a big.

Concepts:

easier to show than explain. Basically it involves how players move regardless of Play, Set, Action, etc. to achieve defender movement, driving lanes/angles, keeping defensive balance, etc.

Concept basketball is what Collen will spend 70-85% of practices teaching. Teaching by showing, teaching by doing. Muscle memory.

Here is a simple video NBA Africa, former Spurs assistant coach.



The benefit of Concept basketball is that practices are spent learning the O but also building individual skills rather than simply memorizing plays and variations. And the same Concepts are used no matter which Set the team is in or what Action they run. Tend to see fewer defensive imbalance breakdowns. Offense is much faster. Faster offense means more possessions and more shots. More shots means it is easier to keep players happy. Also, the faster the pace the more Baylor's superior athleticism comes to bear [pun intended].

There will be set out of bound plays, end of quarter plays, etc. but the bulk of the O will be the team running the Sets/Actions that the scouting report says are most beneficial. They will target specific defenders/matchups. Basically, you will see games similar to what the Baylor MBB team played this year.
Dcheetah
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Great post. Thank you!! Excited to see what we look like once we learn the offense. We have many high level athletes that can take advantage of this concept of isolating weak defenders and playing to our biggest strengths.

Question about Grace Van Slooten. I thought she would play in Nalyssa's spot. She is a good shooter and can play in and out. I see her playing like LC in the high post some and pinning GG smaller defenders inside. Does she still have real interest in us?

Are we still interested in big centers with mass like Kalani or do we want the more athletic centers like the female version of JTT who can have a midrange game and move and defend on the perimeter better? Besides Sa'Myah, any other good 2022s who fit this description or are we going to look overseas for these players?

Thanks again!
Lion82
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What do you often hear when a team is losing? "We have got to simplify things, get back to the fundamentals and execute"

I've got some concepts for you. The baylor wbb big 12 dynasty was built on very basic concepts : recruit tough, athletic players with size. Teach them to defend and rebound. Dominate points in the paint. Deviate from these fundamentals at your own peril.
Dcheetah
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You do realize there is more than 1 way to skin a cat. NC Is known for defense also. Per your own words, let's give her a chance.
74Bear
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I have nothing against a new offense, go for it, but I sure would find it hard to call Kim's old style or be critical of it. Afterall she did win a NC just 2 years ago and came close this year.
baylor1984
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There is more than one way to win. Will be interesting to see how this plays out in the next few years.
Lone Star
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74Bear said:

I have nothing against a new offense, go for it, but I sure would find it hard to call Kim's old style or be critical of it. Afterall she did win a NC just 2 years ago and came close this year.
We keep worrying about Kim's style of offense (versus what CNC is going to install) when we always fail to mention that it was the defense that won us the championship. That (defense) is what I am hoping keeps up.
74Bear
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Agree
ctxbear
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Question for those smarter than me, but wanting to weigh into the implicit controversy on this thread:

In the past 10 years, the National Championship has been won by--

Baylor twice
Connecticut 4x
Stanford, South Carolina, Notre Dame once

How many of these schools have employed a variation of the "modern offense," and how many have employed a variation of "stick to the fundamentals" offense?
Adriacus Peratuun
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ctxbear said:

Question for those smarter than me, but wanting to weigh into the implicit controversy on this thread:

In the past 10 years, the National Championship has been won by--

Baylor twice
Connecticut 4x
Stanford, South Carolina, Notre Dame once

How many of these schools have employed a variation of the "modern offense," and how many have employed a variation of "stick to the fundamentals" offense?
Connecticut: today they are mostly Modern, they were primarily Pattern (during some of those championships) and slowly transitioned over [still have some Pattern O].
NotreDame: Modern
Stanford: Pattern
South Carolina: jumbled mix of all three styles. Last two years they ran set plays for Boston but their perimeter offense was all Pattern/Modern (concept)

For UConn, they use their old Pattern O as a change of pace option much like Baylor MBB used the dribble drive pattern at times.

Stanford's Pattern O is unique since they run it out of 4 In 1 Out sets rather than 5 Out sets.
Adriacus Peratuun
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Lone Star said:

74Bear said:

I have nothing against a new offense, go for it, but I sure would find it hard to call Kim's old style or be critical of it. Afterall she did win a NC just 2 years ago and came close this year.
We keep worrying about Kim's style of offense (versus what CNC is going to install) when we always fail to mention that it was the defense that won us the championship. That (defense) is what I am hoping keeps up.
While D is a necessary component to winning, remember the following:

to beat Oregon in the Final Four in 2019, the game came down to scoring on one possession in the Half Court O.
to beat Notre Dame in the Finals in 2019, the game came down to scoring on one possession in the Half Court O. The D actually failed on its last possession but ND missed a FT.
In losing to UConn this season, the game turned because the team could no longer score (long scoring drought) and kept turning the ball over creating transition buckets for UConn.....the infamous 19-0 run.

D is important. But ultimately teams win because of differential.

Notre Dame & UConn won championships with Great O and adequate D.
Baylor and South Carolina won with Great D and adequate O.
Stanford won with Good D, Passable O, and a weaker opponent.

While One component doesn't function alone, it is generally necessary to have excellence on one end.

That said, the best teams of the last 25 years were Great/Dominant on both ends. Baylor can have a poor shooting night and needs D. Baylor's opponent can have a great shooting night and Baylor needs O. The 2020 season ending loss at ISU proves what happens when you play great D but have little O.
gold rewards
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Thanks for the explanations. Well thought out and reasoned. I learn a lot of good stuff on this board.
drahthaar
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ctxbear said:

Question for those smarter than me, but wanting to weigh into the implicit controversy on this thread:

In the past 10 years, the National Championship has been won by--

Baylor twice
Connecticut 4x
Stanford, South Carolina, Notre Dame once

How many of these schools have employed a variation of the "modern offense," and how many have employed a variation of "stick to the fundamentals" offense?
And Kim had a legit shot at winning 3 in a row from '19 thru '21. Covid and one critical injury (and maybe a failed TO call?) disrupted that run.
Adriacus Peratuun
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drahthaar said:

And Kim had a legit shot at winning 3 in a row from '19 thru '21. Covid and one critical injury (and maybe a failed TO call?) disrupted that run.


This conversation is about offense not coaches. Kim Mulkey is no longer at Baylor. Nikki Collen and her offense are at Baylor. We are discussing what that change means. We aren't rehashing the Was Kim Done Wrong allegation.
Old300Bear
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Is this the new modern offense where we don't Win the Big 12 every year?
Fred Barber
Adriacus Peratuun
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Old300Bear said:

Is this the new modern offense where we don't Win the Big 12 every year?


This is a basketball discussion. You seem to want the grocery section. Vinegar is on Aisle 9.
baylor1984
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Just win. .
Lone Star
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

Lone Star said:

74Bear said:

I have nothing against a new offense, go for it, but I sure would find it hard to call Kim's old style or be critical of it. Afterall she did win a NC just 2 years ago and came close this year.
We keep worrying about Kim's style of offense (versus what CNC is going to install) when we always fail to mention that it was the defense that won us the championship. That (defense) is what I am hoping keeps up.
While D is a necessary component to winning, remember the following:

to beat Oregon in the Final Four in 2019, the game came down to scoring on one possession in the Half Court O.
to beat Notre Dame in the Finals in 2019, the game came down to scoring on one possession in the Half Court O. The D actually failed on its last possession but ND missed a FT.
In losing to UConn this season, the game turned because the team could no longer score (long scoring drought) and kept turning the ball over creating transition buckets for UConn.....the infamous 19-0 run.

D is important. But ultimately teams win because of differential.

Notre Dame & UConn won championships with Great O and adequate D.
Baylor and South Carolina won with Great D and adequate O.
Stanford won with Good D, Passable O, and a weaker opponent.

While One component doesn't function alone, it is generally necessary to have excellence on one end.

That said, the best teams of the last 25 years were Great/Dominant on both ends. Baylor can have a poor shooting night and needs D. Baylor's opponent can have a great shooting night and Baylor needs O. The 2020 season ending loss at ISU proves what happens when you play great D but have little O.
True BUT, the only reason the ND game and UConn games came down to what they did was solely because the tide was suddenly changed with injuries to very key DEFENSIVE players in the game (Didi and LC).

Baylor's components of success over the years have always been on 2 things: defense AND rebounding (especially offensive rebounding).

I wish I could remember where I read this stat in the past but, in the NBA playoffs, the team that wins the rebounding battle, wins the game approximately 85% of the time. The only exceptions are when the opposing team has such an incredible FG% shooting night, rebounding doesn't come into play.
Adriacus Peratuun
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Lone Star said:



True BUT, the only reason the ND game and UConn games came down to what they did was solely because the tide was suddenly changed with injuries to very key DEFENSIVE players in the game (Didi and LC).

Baylor's components of success over the years have always been on 2 things: defense AND rebounding (especially offensive rebounding).

I wish I could remember where I read this stat in the past but, in the NBA playoffs, the team that wins the rebounding battle, wins the game approximately 85% of the time. The only exceptions are when the opposing team has such an incredible FG% shooting night, rebounding doesn't come into play.
The missing component to that argument is inter-connectivity. When a team shoots poorly, the opponent necessarily gets more defensive rebounds. Were those missed shots due to great D or simply poor O?

When a team gets many offensive boards is it that they are simply a better rebounding team or did the defenders have to constantly rotate against good O leaving unguarded backside rebounders?

The stat is useful but requires context.

It is easier to be consistently great on D than to be consistently great on O. But that concept is tempered by the fact that great O beats great D more often than not. That reality leads to coaches "they were simply hitting their shots" comments after losses.

robby44
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In just the past 2 seasons BU was ranked 5th nationally in scoring offense at 87.8 and 81.8 points per game.
It's going to be real hard to improve on that
drahthaar
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

drahthaar said:

And Kim had a legit shot at winning 3 in a row from '19 thru '21. Covid and one critical injury (and maybe a failed TO call?) disrupted that run.


This conversation is about offense not coaches. Kim Mulkey is no longer at Baylor. Nikki Collen and her offense are at Baylor. We are discussing what that change means. We aren't rehashing the Was Kim Done Wrong allegation.
Wasn't commenting on what she did "wrong"... just dovetailed on a prior observation of the success of teams running different offensive schemes. My apologies for entering your personal echo chamber.
Adriacus Peratuun
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robby44 said:

In just the past 2 seasons BU was ranked 5th nationally in scoring offense at 87.8 and 81.8 points per game.
It's going to be real hard to improve on that
Raw numbers. Where did they rank on Points Per Possession?

Think PPP is the best metric since it adjusts for both pace of play and 3 point shooting.
Bone Squad
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Adriacus Peratuun said:


Raw numbers. Where did they rank on Points Per Possession?
I don't know the answer to the specific question or where to find it.

But logically, if I apply what you're saying in this thread, I would expect the PPP to be extremely high. Specifically, you say of the Modern Offense, "Offense is much faster. Faster offense means more possessions and more shots." I'm inferring that the comparison (i.e "faster") is to the style Baylor has been employing.

So the logic would go: Baylor had a high scoring team in raw numbers. Baylor ran a slower style of offense, leading to fewer possessions. If the high raw numbers occurred in fewer possessions, the points per possession was quite high.
Brian Ethridge
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Staff
The portion of her offense I appreciate is the horns and also the screening game to get mismatches and open shooters. Smith in this offense will need to shoot free throws as she'll be fouled a ton. Egbo will slip screens and get easy buckets. Run Bickle off a pick and roll for a spot up 3. Much different than the past.
sswienton
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

robby44 said:

In just the past 2 seasons BU was ranked 5th nationally in scoring offense at 87.8 and 81.8 points per game.
It's going to be real hard to improve on that
Raw numbers. Where did they rank on Points Per Possession?

Think PPP is the best metric since it adjusts for both pace of play and 3 point shooting.
this was the best I could find doing a quick search

not in the top 20 last season: https://statsbywill.com/2021/04/07/the-best-womens-college-basketball-offenses-of-2020-21/

#15 2 season's ago: https://statsbywill.com/2020/03/24/the-best-offenses-in-womens-college-basketball-2019-20/

interesting tidbit: Molly's Drury team (even after she left last season) listed both times
BearnMI
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Brian Ethridge said:

The portion of her offense I appreciate is the horns and also the screening game to get mismatches and open shooters. Smith in this offense will need to shoot free throws as she'll be fouled a ton. Egbo will slip screens and get easy buckets. Run Bickle off a pick and roll for a spot up 3. Much different than the past.
I ready to see your view happen.
Brian Ethridge
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Staff
sswienton said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

robby44 said:

In just the past 2 seasons BU was ranked 5th nationally in scoring offense at 87.8 and 81.8 points per game.
It's going to be real hard to improve on that
Raw numbers. Where did they rank on Points Per Possession?

Think PPP is the best metric since it adjusts for both pace of play and 3 point shooting.
this was the best I could find doing a quick search

not in the top 20 last season: https://statsbywill.com/2021/04/07/the-best-womens-college-basketball-offenses-of-2020-21/

#15 2 season's ago: https://statsbywill.com/2020/03/24/the-best-offenses-in-womens-college-basketball-2019-20/

interesting tidbit: Molly's Drury team (even after she left last season) listed both times
Interesting that Collen coached under FGCU coach which is ranked ahead of the Lady Bears in 2019.
BBWCBear
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

Old300Bear said:

Is this the new modern offense where we don't Win the Big 12 every year?


This is a basketball discussion. You seem to want the grocery section. Vinegar is on Aisle 9.
Your tone and retort sounds eerily familiar. Sounds a lot like a poster not seen anymore... MilliVanilli.
DanaDane
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Brian Ethridge said:

sswienton said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

robby44 said:

In just the past 2 seasons BU was ranked 5th nationally in scoring offense at 87.8 and 81.8 points per game.
It's going to be real hard to improve on that
Raw numbers. Where did they rank on Points Per Possession?

Think PPP is the best metric since it adjusts for both pace of play and 3 point shooting.
this was the best I could find doing a quick search

not in the top 20 last season: https://statsbywill.com/2021/04/07/the-best-womens-college-basketball-offenses-of-2020-21/

#15 2 season's ago: https://statsbywill.com/2020/03/24/the-best-offenses-in-womens-college-basketball-2019-20/

interesting tidbit: Molly's Drury team (even after she left last season) listed both times
Interesting that Collen coached under FGCU coach which is ranked ahead of the Lady Bears in 2019.


Great. The FGCU can polish those stats while looking at OUR national championship trophy, the only stat that matters and the one that would have been our back-to-back trophy if COVID hadn't claimed the season.
Brian Ethridge
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Staff
BBWCBear said:

Adriacus Peratuun said:

Old300Bear said:

Is this the new modern offense where we don't Win the Big 12 every year?


This is a basketball discussion. You seem to want the grocery section. Vinegar is on Aisle 9.
Your tone and retort sounds eerily familiar. Sounds a lot like a poster not seen anymore... MilliVanilli.
LOL

Not the same poster or even state.
elitglad
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I have nothing against a new offense, go for it, but I sure would find it hard to call Kim's old style or be critical of it.


192.168.100.1 192.168.1.1
BBWCBear
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elitglad said:

I have nothing against a new offense, go for it, but I sure would find it hard to call Kim's old style or be critical of it.


Same here. Whether you liked her or not, 3 NC's plus the Pandemic and one indisputable foul that potentially could have provided an opportunity to be in 2021 NC, possibly making a total of five.
SATXBear
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Lion82 said:

What do you often hear when a team is losing? "We have got to simplify things, get back to the fundamentals and execute"

I've got some concepts for you. The baylor wbb big 12 dynasty was built on very basic concepts : recruit tough, athletic players with size. Teach them to defend and rebound. Dominate points in the paint. Deviate from these fundamentals at your own peril.



You are a broken record. Everytime I go to a thread to learn about something, you have a post throwing a bucket of cold water on everything with your nonsense. Maybe you should go in time out?
SATXBear
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Thanks for the break down
slimecap
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Brian Ethridge said:

The portion of her offense I appreciate is the horns and also the screening game to get mismatches and open shooters. Smith in this offense will need to shoot free throws as she'll be fouled a ton. Egbo will slip screens and get easy buckets. Run Bickle off a pick and roll for a spot up 3. Much different than the past.
Brian, Appreciate the breakdown by each player. Thanks !
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