What the new Modern Offense means, What it takes to install

18,612 Views | 114 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by Brusinbear2001
Baylorkid
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GrizBear said:

Lion82 said:

Some of you who have said the big 12 has been weak for a decade will suddenly change your tune and tell us how tough a league it is when the baylor loses start piling up post Kim.
After going 24/1 vs Texas im expecting them to sweep baylor. I say we go 12-6 in the league.
I miss Adriacus Peratuun and hope he'll return to more fully pontificate on this mystical "modern offense". Curiously, AP seems to have disappeared. Hope he's okay.

I hope he comes back so I can give him a piece of my mind
fredbear
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Our demise can be attributed to one or more factors

1. The new offense is inferior
2. We have the wrong players to execute the new offense
3. We have the wrong coach to teach the new offense
4. The learning curve for this movement machine offense is too steep for college players
5. We have simply had a bad string of coincidences that have hidden how great we are
6. We have so focused on offense we have forgotten how to play defense.


Or a combination thereof
mcleod66
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fredbear said:

Our demise can be attributed to one or more factors

1. The new offense is inferior
2. We have the wrong players to execute the new offense
3. We have the wrong coach to teach the new offense
4. The learning curve for this movement machine offense is too steep for college players
5. We have simply had a bad string of coincidences that have hidden how great we are
6. We have so focused on offense we have forgotten how to play defense.


Or a combination thereof
blackie
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fredbear said:

Our demise can be attributed to one or more factors

1. The new offense is inferior
2. We have the wrong players to execute the new offense
3. We have the wrong coach to teach the new offense
4. The learning curve for this movement machine offense is too steep for college players
5. We have simply had a bad string of coincidences that have hidden how great we are
6. We have so focused on offense we have forgotten how to play defense.


Or a combination thereof
I would add a couple more:

We brought back only 3 players that had any meaningful playing time in a Baylor uniform last year (none of them guards)

We were doing good to even have a team because of the lateness of the coaching departure (I blame that on the ex LSU coach waiting so long to resign.)

Concerning the others:
1. Doubt it. We have lost games in the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 and regular season to physically weaker teams that employ that offense or a version of it.

2. Probably so, although a few of them were suppose to be good 3-point shooters, that seem to not be able to hit the ocean.

3. Way too early to assess that. (Rhule and Aranda both looked bad the first year.)

4.Doubt it, but I don't have enough knowledge to know. Men's team seem to be able to learn it, and other university women's team can do it. The learning curve for this team is not only the offense, but just playing together.

5. We have simply had a bad string of coincidences that have hidden how great we are. Drop the "that have hidden how great we are", and I would agree. I think the losses of Moon and Didi was greatly underestimated because of the transfers that we had coming in and then lost because of the coaching exit. Outside of Smith, what player on the team would you consider "great"?

6. We have never defended the 3-ball all that great. It has been the bane of us not reaching more Final Fours at least two or three times, not to mention losing to ISU and WVU a few times where we had the better overall team and height in the middle. Defense is a team effort which takes time to develop. There is no proof one way or another that the combination of players we have now knew how to play team defense, especially those that transferred in that were supposedly going to keep us at the level we were at defensively.
SATXBear
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This thread is funny. We lose three games in a row and the sky is suddenly falling on Baylor women's BB? Ridiculous.
no-one
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Adriacus Peratuun tries to make Basketball "Rocket Science" when it really isn't. This style of play is just basketball period, nothing new. Without basic fundamentals of basketball and/or talent, no offense works well. When you have the fundamentals, players who are talented and have high BB IQ's, and will play fundamentally sound defense, you win games, regardless of what offense you run.

A great offense is simply having players that can consistently shoot and make their shot, knowing how to effectively screen, can dribble without one on one takeaways, effectively pass the ball to open players for their shots, being able to move to be open for your shot, and having high enough BB IQ to know how and when to do these things. Then after the shot has been taken, knowing how and when to position yourself for a rebound or to set up to defend in transition. If a team can consistently and effectively do these fundamental things, they WILL be a great offensive team, regardless of the offensive sets are plays that they run.

There will never be a college level team that will be able to effectively run the pro- style offense the way the pros do it because they are simply on a more immature level. The day the college teams start consistently beating the pro teams will be the day the pro game dies.

Just like there is a big level step between Jr High and High School, between High School and College, there is a big level step between the pros and the college level. And, there should be if everything is working as it should naturally.

So, these college kids can effectively learn the fundamentals of basketball as the same pro-style run by the pros, but the kids will only develop at the maturity level in which they are, some faster than others. Trying to compare and make these kids pros at this level is inane. They are still college kids whether they get NIL money or not, they will act and perform like college kids.

As great as Baylor's mbb team was last year, only one of their group is a starter in the NBA this year, and although he is doing good, he is not an NBA star yet. He is still learning and may not have the overall talent it will require to become one. Only time will tell.

CNC, IMO, needs to spend a lot more time on basic defense and offensive fundamentals and simplify to the level of players she is addressing. When they consistently play fundamental offense, defense and transition basketball, they will settle down and start to win games again.
GrizBear
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Adriacus Peratuun said:

Some people have asked about the Modern Offense mentioned as a hiring criteria and mentioned at the introduction.

First issue is terminology:

Plays, Actions, Sets, Spacing, Concepts are common terms that are sometimes used different ways.
To understand the change, you have to understand the lingo.

Sets: simply how the players are initially aligned on the court.

Examples:

5 Out: 5 player spaced on the perimeter [generally close to 3 point line]
4 Out 1 In: 4 players on perimeter and 1 player roaming the paint
Horns Set: 2 players in deep 3 point corners, 2 players at the elbows, 1 player high

Spacing:

How distant are players from one another in initial Sets and how distant they are from one another as you run Action. The more advanced the level of basketball, the greater the existence of/need for spacing.

Action: what offensive movement is used

Example:

Double baseline screen
High ball screen
Elevator screen

Those terms are fairly uniformly applied.

Plays & Concepts [sometimes referred to as Variations] are more fluid terms. That fluidity is due to differing offensive methods.

Kim Mulkey ran Set Plays [the most traditional form of offense].

Play A: Team aligns in Set X, player Y runs Action Z, other players do f, g, h, i. If the defense goes under the screen, player X flares to the 3 point line. If the defense goes over the screen, player X curls hard to dribble, elevate and shoot. Ballhandler and X are reading X's defender. If X isn't open, here is Option 2 and possibly 3. If none work, pull out and run a different play.

Mulkey's offense involved players learning a handful of plays and running them hundreds of times against various defenses [Dream Team told......defend it this way, that way, etc.]. Practices are basically mass repetition played out using changing variables.

Play [in Pattern offense]:

UConn WBB and Kentucky MBB used to be primarily Pattern offenses. Kentucky ran a pure dribble drive pattern. The same movement are repeated again and again until the defense breaks down. Players move in designated patterns. The goal is to get defenders out of position through constant motion. Another MBB version is the Princeton offense. A more complicated pattern with tons of variations [most through varying cuts due to defenders' positions]. UConn WBB ran a Slip Flow Patterned offense. Set patterns like Kentucky but with constant slip actions toward basket. They also utilized many Princeton offense concepts with back cuts. Basically, they blended the Kentucky and Princeton offenses.

Play in Modern Offense [NBA, WNBA, generally Baylor MBB]:

while there are some Set Plays for out of bounds, end of games, etc., the term generally means an identified Set & Action(s) to achieve the switches on D desired to get the most beneficial 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 matchups. This is was what Baylor MBB ran all season [including Gonzaga game]. Example: They ran predetermined "Plays" which were simply Sets/Actions to get switches resulting in Timme defending a perimeter player at the top of the key. And then they abused him. In a modern offense, plays can be unique to games/defenders but often repeatable. Getting Mitchell or Butler 1 on 1 against an opposing big. Faking a backside double screen to run a lift screen for a big.

Concepts:

easier to show than explain. Basically it involves how players move regardless of Play, Set, Action, etc. to achieve defender movement, driving lanes/angles, keeping defensive balance, etc.

Concept basketball is what Collen will spend 70-85% of practices teaching. Teaching by showing, teaching by doing. Muscle memory.

Here is a simple video NBA Africa, former Spurs assistant coach.



The benefit of Concept basketball is that practices are spent learning the O but also building individual skills rather than simply memorizing plays and variations. And the same Concepts are used no matter which Set the team is in or what Action they run. Tend to see fewer defensive imbalance breakdowns. Offense is much faster. Faster offense means more possessions and more shots. More shots means it is easier to keep players happy. Also, the faster the pace the more Baylor's superior athleticism comes to bear [pun intended].

There will be set out of bound plays, end of quarter plays, etc. but the bulk of the O will be the team running the Sets/Actions that the scouting report says are most beneficial. They will target specific defenders/matchups. Basically, you will see games similar to what the Baylor MBB team played this year.

I'm trying to learn here AP. What mistakes were made in running the new offense that caused Baylor to shoot 1-16 in the last 7:22 of the game, lose a 5 point lead, and get outscored 12-1 by a team with significant contributions by 5 freshman?
74Bear
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Personal opinion....I see it working in the pros where you usually at worst have all conference type players, but I don't see it working in college. Players don't seem to be developed enough coming in or have the natural ability for it as an overall team.
Bear2393
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74Bear said:

Personal opinion....I see it working in the pros where you usually at worst have all conference type players, but I don't see it working in college. Players don't seem to be developed enough coming in or have the natural ability for it as an overall team.


Evidently the offense didn't work too well for CNC in the pros, she had a record of 37 wins and 50 losses!
Brusinbear2001
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But she also did not have the roster of the LV Aces or a NY Liberty. She had a decent roster at best in the pros.
 
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