https://www.theamericanconservative.com/american-law-unjustly-abandons-excellence/

[An American Bar Association panel voted Friday to drop a requirement that law school applicants take the LSAT or another standardized admissions test, amid debate about whether the tests help or hurt diversity in admissions.]

Can someone honestly answer this question - it was always my impression that the point of standardized tests was to level the playing field. How would an objective test / assessment harm "diversity?"

It is going to be really scary when medical schools drop the MCAT or licensing requirements for "diversity."

What is the public interest in having unqualified people in powerful positions? Is it a public good to have inferior people in charge of public safety issues whether doctors, attorneys, airline pilots, firemen, etc.?

I believe the thinking goes that wealthier applicants have better access to things like prep courses, thus disadvantaging those who cannot afford such. And that "diverse" candidates are historically not as well off financially.

The LSAT was the main reason I got into a decent law school. I'd hate to see it go, and I suspect most law schools will still want to see it used.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Can someone honestly answer this question - it was always my impression that the point of standardized tests was to level the playing field. How would an objective test / assessment harm "diversity?"

It is going to be really scary when medical schools drop the MCAT or licensing requirements for "diversity."

What is the public interest in having unqualified people in powerful positions? Is it a public good to have inferior people in charge of public safety issues whether doctors, attorneys, airline pilots, firemen, etc.?

---

They have realized such assessments consistently show those of African descent to be at the bottom.

So you have to either accept that Blacks score lower than Asians and Whites on such tests....and that this is most likely related to genetically inherited IQ.

Or that these tests themselves are basically discriminatory. They are either framed in a way that helps Asians and Whites score higher or some other kind of structural disadvantage that hurts Black Americans...like that Asians & Whites must be able to afford expensive test prep and Blacks can not.

Obviously entertaining genetically heritable IQ as a reason is simply a non-starter and anathema to modern egalitarian ideology. So the tests must be structurally racist and the problem.


[The average score on the LSAT varies vastly by race. Research by Aaron Taylor, Executive Director of AccessLex, a center for legal education excellence, shows that the average score for white and Asian test takers is 153, while the average for Black test takers is 142 and for Latinos is 146]
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/22/944434661/already-behind-diversifying-the-legal-profession-starts-before-the-lsat#:~:text=The%20average%20score%20on%20the,and%20for%20Latinos%20is%20146

[The class of 2020 averaged a score of 523 of 800 on the math section of the SAT, slightly below the College Board's college-readiness benchmark score of 530. The College Board predicts that the average SAT test taker will earn less than a C in their first-year math course. The average scores for Black (454) and Latino or Hispanic students (478) are significantly lower than those of white (547) and Asian students (632).
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/12/01/sat-math-scores-mirror-and-maintain-racial-inequity/


Brookings, channeling the new orthodoxy, just comes out and says it: But Black and Hispanic or Latino students routinely score lower on the math section of the SAT a likely result of generations of exclusionary housing, education, and economic policy which too often means that, rather than reducing existing race gaps, using the test in college admissions reinforces them.

The problem with eliminating the LSAT is that you have to develop a new metric to discern between the 3.8 GPA by a STEM major from a 3.8 GPA from an education major and also to discern between a 3.8 GPA by a STEM major at MIT from a 3.8 GPA from a STEM major at small, regional University. The LSAT for all its imperfections was the closest thing we had to a level playing field for all applicants.

Schools and students alike need a decent, uniform method to understand whether an applicant has a reasonable likelihood for success at a given law school. I don't know what method that is if it is not a standardized test like the LSAT.

Makes zero sense. Almost every state has a traditionally black law school. In Texas it is Texas Southern (Houston). Majority black and barely a majority ever pass the bar.

He Hate Me said:

---

The problem with eliminating the LSAT is that you have to develop a new metric to discern between the 3.8 GPA by a STEM major from a 3.8 GPA from an education major and also to discern between a 3.8 GPA by a STEM major at MIT from a 3.8 GPA from a STEM major at small, regional University. The LSAT for all its imperfections was the closest thing we had to a level playing field for all applicants.

Schools and students alike need a decent, uniform method to understand whether an applicant has a reasonable likelihood for success at a given law school. I don't know what method that is if it is not a standardized test like the LSAT.

---

I suspect that law schools can do a good job differentiating most of those things without a test, but don't put me in the camp of those wanting the LSAT eliminated.

The problem with law schools isn't (or wasn't, back when I cared) reliance on an LSAT. The problem is that there are too many schools.

It's an affirmative action play
Law schools don't want to be down graded on USN&WR rankings when they take less qualified candidates.

If a law school admin from one of these schools are s accused of a felony, they must hire one of these AA lawyers for defense

Osodecentx said:

---

It's an affirmative action play
Law schools don't want to be down graded on USN&WR rankings when they take less qualified candidates.

If a law school admin from one of these schools are s accused of a felony, they must hire one of these AA lawyers for defense

---

As the illegal immigration issue shows, the authoritarians act much differently when their stupid policies affect them directly. Extend to medical care - make all the progressives use only American black or Hispanic doctors that passed only due to racial preferences ... bet you don't have many takers then.

The problem with racist admissions is it never ends - I can see a case for economic-based admissions in college, but for grad school one has to believe progressive universities are all racist or some individual students are less smart than others. But that was the sleight of hand with "equity" where the equal outcomes supplanted the equal opportunity.

The LSAT and MCAT are not the same as the bar exam or medical boards. You don't pass those due to "racist preferences."

Sheesh.

fubar said:

---

The LSAT and MCAT are not the same as the bar exam or medical boards. You don't pass those due to "racist preferences."

Sheesh.

---

Not sure what you mean

fubar said:

---

The LSAT and MCAT are not the same as the bar exam or medical boards. You don't pass those due to "racist preferences."

Sheesh.

---

Give it time. If certain groups don't pass at the same rate as others then the only answer is t'racism.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

fubar said:

---

The LSAT and MCAT are not the same as the bar exam or medical boards. You don't pass those due to "racist preferences."

Sheesh.

---

Give it time. If certain groups don't pass at the same rate as others then the only answer is t'racism.

---

Once in, they'll pass them on to the public, no matter how bad

The victims are the minorities who can cut it

fubar said:

---

The LSAT and MCAT are not the same as the bar exam or medical boards. You don't pass those due to "racist preferences."

Sheesh.

---

You need to keep up with advances in progressive thought.

Commentary: The bar exam is stained with inequality and racism. It needs to be abolished.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/commentary/story/2020-12-07/abolishing-the-bar-exam-bias

Redbrickbear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Can someone honestly answer this question - it was always my impression that the point of standardized tests was to level the playing field. How would an objective test / assessment harm "diversity?"

It is going to be really scary when medical schools drop the MCAT or licensing requirements for "diversity."

What is the public interest in having unqualified people in powerful positions? Is it a public good to have inferior people in charge of public safety issues whether doctors, attorneys, airline pilots, firemen, etc.?

---

They have realized such assessments consistently show those of African descent to be at the bottom.

So you have to either accept that Blacks score lower than Asians and Whites on such tests....and that this is most likely related to genetically inherited IQ.

Or that these tests themselves are basically discriminatory. They are either framed in a way that helps Asians and Whites score higher or some other kind of structural disadvantage that hurts Black Americans...like that Asians & Whites must be able to afford expensive test prep and Blacks can not.

Obviously entertaining genetically heritable IQ as a reason is simply a non-starter and anathema to modern egalitarian ideology. So the tests must be structurally racist and the problem.


[The average score on the LSAT varies vastly by race. Research by Aaron Taylor, Executive Director of AccessLex, a center for legal education excellence, shows that the average score for white and Asian test takers is 153, while the average for Black test takers is 142 and for Latinos is 146]
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/22/944434661/already-behind-diversifying-the-legal-profession-starts-before-the-lsat#:~:text=The%20average%20score%20on%20the,and%20for%20Latinos%20is%20146

[The class of 2020 averaged a score of 523 of 800 on the math section of the SAT, slightly below the College Board's college-readiness benchmark score of 530. The College Board predicts that the average SAT test taker will earn less than a C in their first-year math course. The average scores for Black (454) and Latino or Hispanic students (478) are significantly lower than those of white (547) and Asian students (632).
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/12/01/sat-math-scores-mirror-and-maintain-racial-inequity/


Brookings, channeling the new orthodoxy, just comes out and says it: But Black and Hispanic or Latino students routinely score lower on the math section of the SAT a likely result of generations of exclusionary housing, education, and economic policy which too often means that, rather than reducing existing race gaps, using the test in college admissions reinforces them.

---

The obvious third option, which is also obviously more correct than the false choice you presented, is that testing specific information only normally available from academia favors those with more academics, years of study, good tutors and teachers sought out. And of course the reality is that getting this knowledge costs money, if not always to the recipient of the knowledge.

So truly has nothing to do with race, but class (wealth). And guess who disproportionately occupies the class of impoverished?

I have said this before, but i have a family member that went to a nationally ranked top 10 high school and whose family spared no expense on ACT tutoring. Or anything else academic. She was one point off from the top score, whatever that is. She worked crazy hard but even that is somewhat attributable to the class (wealth) of her family.

There is no possible way for anyone impoverished to even be able to grasp the opportunities available to her. And this class of impoverished is largely generational impoverished, living in zip codes also all impoverished. This is what we did to slaves. We ruined their opportunities for generations beyond the actual slavery. Some have pulled themselves out, and some handed a life raft. But millions are still stuck in the same wealth percentile as their newly freed ancestors. It was something the United States did to human beings. Something truly awful.

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Can someone honestly answer this question - it was always my impression that the point of standardized tests was to level the playing field. How would an objective test / assessment harm "diversity?"

It is going to be really scary when medical schools drop the MCAT or licensing requirements for "diversity."

What is the public interest in having unqualified people in powerful positions? Is it a public good to have inferior people in charge of public safety issues whether doctors, attorneys, airline pilots, firemen, etc.?

---

They have realized such assessments consistently show those of African descent to be at the bottom.

So you have to either accept that Blacks score lower than Asians and Whites on such tests....and that this is most likely related to genetically inherited IQ.

Or that these tests themselves are basically discriminatory. They are either framed in a way that helps Asians and Whites score higher or some other kind of structural disadvantage that hurts Black Americans...like that Asians & Whites must be able to afford expensive test prep and Blacks can not.

Obviously entertaining genetically heritable IQ as a reason is simply a non-starter and anathema to modern egalitarian ideology. So the tests must be structurally racist and the problem.


[The average score on the LSAT varies vastly by race. Research by Aaron Taylor, Executive Director of AccessLex, a center for legal education excellence, shows that the average score for white and Asian test takers is 153, while the average for Black test takers is 142 and for Latinos is 146]
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/22/944434661/already-behind-diversifying-the-legal-profession-starts-before-the-lsat#:~:text=The%20average%20score%20on%20the,and%20for%20Latinos%20is%20146

[The class of 2020 averaged a score of 523 of 800 on the math section of the SAT, slightly below the College Board's college-readiness benchmark score of 530. The College Board predicts that the average SAT test taker will earn less than a C in their first-year math course. The average scores for Black (454) and Latino or Hispanic students (478) are significantly lower than those of white (547) and Asian students (632).
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/12/01/sat-math-scores-mirror-and-maintain-racial-inequity/


Brookings, channeling the new orthodoxy, just comes out and says it: But Black and Hispanic or Latino students routinely score lower on the math section of the SAT a likely result of generations of exclusionary housing, education, and economic policy which too often means that, rather than reducing existing race gaps, using the test in college admissions reinforces them.

---

The obvious third option, which is also obviously more correct than the false choice you presented, is that testing specific information only normally available from academia favors those with more academics, years of study, good tutors and teachers sought out. And of course the reality is that getting this knowledge costs money, if not always to the recipient of the knowledge.

So truly has nothing to do with race, but class (wealth). And guess who disproportionately occupies the class of impoverished?

I have said this before, but i have a family member that went to a nationally ranked top 10 high school and whose family spared no expense on ACT tutoring. Or anything else academic. She was one point off from the top score, whatever that is. She worked crazy hard but even that is somewhat attributable to the class (wealth) of her family.

There is no possible way for anyone impoverished to even be able to grasp the opportunities available to her. And this class of impoverished is largely generational impoverished, living in zip codes also all impoverished. This is what we did to slaves. We ruined their opportunities for generations beyond the actual slavery. Some have pulled themselves out, and some handed a life raft. But millions are still stuck in the same wealth percentile as their newly freed ancestors. It was something the United States did to human beings. Something truly awful.

---

There was once chattel slavery in the United States, therefore the LSAT is a tool of invidious discrimination. Is that a decent summary of your argument? If no, then please provide a summary.

Osodecentx said:

---

fubar said:

---

The LSAT and MCAT are not the same as the bar exam or medical boards. You don't pass those due to "racist preferences."

Sheesh.

---

Not sure what you mean

---

Responding to this quote from the post above my response:

"Extend to medical care - make all the progressives use only American black or Hispanic doctors that passed only due to racial preferences ... bet you don't have many takers then."

JXL said:

---

fubar said:

---

The LSAT and MCAT are not the same as the bar exam or medical boards. You don't pass those due to "racist preferences."

Sheesh.

---

You need to keep up with advances in progressive thought.

Commentary: The bar exam is stained with inequality and racism. It needs to be abolished.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/commentary/story/2020-12-07/abolishing-the-bar-exam-bias

---

I don't feel the need to read/respond to/get butthurt about every opinion published by every whack job. You be you, though, and go to town.

This thread was about tossing the LSAT out of the law school admission process. I don't agree with doing that (and have now said so three times), but it's not nearly the Assault on America that you slippery slopers want to make it out to be.

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Can someone honestly answer this question - it was always my impression that the point of standardized tests was to level the playing field. How would an objective test / assessment harm "diversity?"

It is going to be really scary when medical schools drop the MCAT or licensing requirements for "diversity."

What is the public interest in having unqualified people in powerful positions? Is it a public good to have inferior people in charge of public safety issues whether doctors, attorneys, airline pilots, firemen, etc.?

---

They have realized such assessments consistently show those of African descent to be at the bottom.

So you have to either accept that Blacks score lower than Asians and Whites on such tests....and that this is most likely related to genetically inherited IQ.

Or that these tests themselves are basically discriminatory. They are either framed in a way that helps Asians and Whites score higher or some other kind of structural disadvantage that hurts Black Americans...like that Asians & Whites must be able to afford expensive test prep and Blacks can not.

Obviously entertaining genetically heritable IQ as a reason is simply a non-starter and anathema to modern egalitarian ideology. So the tests must be structurally racist and the problem.


[The average score on the LSAT varies vastly by race. Research by Aaron Taylor, Executive Director of AccessLex, a center for legal education excellence, shows that the average score for white and Asian test takers is 153, while the average for Black test takers is 142 and for Latinos is 146]
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/22/944434661/already-behind-diversifying-the-legal-profession-starts-before-the-lsat#:~:text=The%20average%20score%20on%20the,and%20for%20Latinos%20is%20146

[The class of 2020 averaged a score of 523 of 800 on the math section of the SAT, slightly below the College Board's college-readiness benchmark score of 530. The College Board predicts that the average SAT test taker will earn less than a C in their first-year math course. The average scores for Black (454) and Latino or Hispanic students (478) are significantly lower than those of white (547) and Asian students (632).
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/12/01/sat-math-scores-mirror-and-maintain-racial-inequity/


Brookings, channeling the new orthodoxy, just comes out and says it: But Black and Hispanic or Latino students routinely score lower on the math section of the SAT a likely result of generations of exclusionary housing, education, and economic policy which too often means that, rather than reducing existing race gaps, using the test in college admissions reinforces them.

---

The obvious third option, which is also obviously more correct than the false choice you presented, is that testing specific information only normally available from academia favors those with more academics, years of study, good tutors and teachers sought out. And of course the reality is that getting this knowledge costs money, if not always to the recipient of the knowledge.

So truly has nothing to do with race, but class (wealth). And guess who disproportionately occupies the class of impoverished?

I have said this before, but i have a family member that went to a nationally ranked top 10 high school and whose family spared no expense on ACT tutoring. Or anything else academic. She was one point off from the top score, whatever that is. She worked crazy hard but even that is somewhat attributable to the class (wealth) of her family.

There is no possible way for anyone impoverished to even be able to grasp the opportunities available to her. And this class of impoverished is largely generational impoverished, living in zip codes also all impoverished. This is what we did to slaves. We ruined their opportunities for generations beyond the actual slavery. Some have pulled themselves out, and some handed a life raft. But millions are still stuck in the same wealth percentile as their newly freed ancestors. It was something the United States did to human beings. Something truly awful.

---

So you didn't actual present a 3rd option… you just chose option 2

It's not IQ…it's structural disadvantages that favor Whites and Asians over Blacks.

Porteroso said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Can someone honestly answer this question - it was always my impression that the point of standardized tests was to level the playing field. How would an objective test / assessment harm "diversity?"

It is going to be really scary when medical schools drop the MCAT or licensing requirements for "diversity."

What is the public interest in having unqualified people in powerful positions? Is it a public good to have inferior people in charge of public safety issues whether doctors, attorneys, airline pilots, firemen, etc.?

---

They have realized such assessments consistently show those of African descent to be at the bottom.

So you have to either accept that Blacks score lower than Asians and Whites on such tests....and that this is most likely related to genetically inherited IQ.

Or that these tests themselves are basically discriminatory. They are either framed in a way that helps Asians and Whites score higher or some other kind of structural disadvantage that hurts Black Americans...like that Asians & Whites must be able to afford expensive test prep and Blacks can not.

Obviously entertaining genetically heritable IQ as a reason is simply a non-starter and anathema to modern egalitarian ideology. So the tests must be structurally racist and the problem.


[The average score on the LSAT varies vastly by race. Research by Aaron Taylor, Executive Director of AccessLex, a center for legal education excellence, shows that the average score for white and Asian test takers is 153, while the average for Black test takers is 142 and for Latinos is 146]
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/22/944434661/already-behind-diversifying-the-legal-profession-starts-before-the-lsat#:~:text=The%20average%20score%20on%20the,and%20for%20Latinos%20is%20146

[The class of 2020 averaged a score of 523 of 800 on the math section of the SAT, slightly below the College Board's college-readiness benchmark score of 530. The College Board predicts that the average SAT test taker will earn less than a C in their first-year math course. The average scores for Black (454) and Latino or Hispanic students (478) are significantly lower than those of white (547) and Asian students (632).
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/12/01/sat-math-scores-mirror-and-maintain-racial-inequity/


Brookings, channeling the new orthodoxy, just comes out and says it: But Black and Hispanic or Latino students routinely score lower on the math section of the SAT a likely result of generations of exclusionary housing, education, and economic policy which too often means that, rather than reducing existing race gaps, using the test in college admissions reinforces them.

---

The obvious third option, which is also obviously more correct than the false choice you presented, is that testing specific information only normally available from academia favors those with more academics, years of study, good tutors and teachers sought out. And of course the reality is that getting this knowledge costs money, if not always to the recipient of the knowledge.

So truly has nothing to do with race, but class (wealth). And guess who disproportionately occupies the class of impoverished?

I have said this before, but i have a family member that went to a nationally ranked top 10 high school and whose family spared no expense on ACT tutoring. Or anything else academic. She was one point off from the top score, whatever that is. She worked crazy hard but even that is somewhat attributable to the class (wealth) of her family.

There is no possible way for anyone impoverished to even be able to grasp the opportunities available to her. And this class of impoverished is largely generational impoverished, living in zip codes also all impoverished. This is what we did to slaves. We ruined their opportunities for generations beyond the actual slavery. Some have pulled themselves out, and some handed a life raft. But millions are still stuck in the same wealth percentile as their newly freed ancestors. It was something the United States did to human beings. Something truly awful.

---

United States? You just wrote a hit piece on the Democrat party.

What ruh tardedness democrat socialists have wrought upon our society

https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/revisionist-history/the-tortoise-and-the-hare

Great podcast on the LSAT

fubar said:

---

JXL said:

---

fubar said:

---

The LSAT and MCAT are not the same as the bar exam or medical boards. You don't pass those due to "racist preferences."

Sheesh.

---

You need to keep up with advances in progressive thought.

Commentary: The bar exam is stained with inequality and racism. It needs to be abolished.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/commentary/story/2020-12-07/abolishing-the-bar-exam-bias

---

I don't feel the need to read/respond to/get butthurt about every opinion published by every whack job. You be you, though, and go to town.

This thread was about tossing the LSAT out of the law school admission process. I don't agree with doing that (and have now said so three times), but it's not nearly the Assault on America that you slippery slopers want to make it out to be.

---

If only it was an isolated whack job.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2020/07/13/why-this-pandemic-is-good-time-stop-forcing-prospective-lawyers-take-bar-exams/

https://www.law.com/2021/06/24/racial-disparities-on-the-bar-exam-have-persisted-for-decades-does-the-legal-profession-care/

https://www.californialawreview.org/abolish-the-bar-exam/

https://lawandinequality.org/2022/04/14/racism-social-control-and-the-regulation-of-bar-admissions/

https://bestpracticeslegaled.com/2021/08/04/racial-inequity-on-the-bar-exam/

https://racism.org/racism.org/articles/basic-needs/education/47-education-legal-education/10779-examining-the

https://racism.org/articles/law-and-justice/practice-of-law/9938-bar-exam-s

https://theappeal.org/2020-bar-exam-coronavirus-inequities-legal-system/

https://ir.law.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1472&context=lr

When one student can't pass a test the answer always should be declare the test t'racist.

It really speaks to the failure of the liberal project during the past 60 years.

Oso simply revealed the truth: how many billionaire wokeys hire lawyers or doctors who failed the LSAT or MCAT? I suspect the answer is zero.

honky........

Porteroso said:

---

Next step is to drop the bar. Will be hilarious if it happens.

---

me grr think idea grrr good this grrr.

- CML

william said:

---

honky........

---