Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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I don't understand why some people feel the need to denigrate an American who did great things and died too young.

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I don't understand why we need to denigrate people like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington who lived in different times but did great things, but alas, this is the world we live in. The standards should apply equally to people of all colors, shouldn't they?

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MLK had his flaws and GW and TJ had slaves. Do we strike all of them from the record or do we celebrate their achievements while trying not to repeat their errors?

It's like the clowns at a circus screaming about the clowns at the circus…. both ways

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Mothra said:

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Osodecentx said:

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I don't understand why some people feel the need to denigrate an American who did great things and died too young.

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I don't understand why we need to denigrate people like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington who lived in different times but did great things, but alas, this is the world we live in. The standards should apply equally to people of all colors, shouldn't they?

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MLK had his flaws and GW and TJ had slaves. Do we strike all of them from the record or do we celebrate their achievements while trying not to repeat their errors?

It's like the clowns at a circus screaming about the clowns at the circus…. both ways

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GW, TJ, and other Founding Fathers were intellectual giants. Leave the statues alone. While I' ranting, leave T. Roosevelt's statue alone and don't change the names of military bases.

And quit trying to pull MLK down.

ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

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Well said. hear, hear.

Redbrickbear said:

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Seeing how the media and academia portrayed the BLM riots of 2020 as a "summer of love".

You really have to question how the 1960s are presented to us today.

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At least the grievances were well founded in the 60s.

ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

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You are leaving out the participation in rape and the physical abuse of prostitutes.

Rape and abuse of prostitutes are crimes and should be compared to the crime of slavery.

Flirting with Marxism & communism (criminal ideologies that killed and enslaved hundred's of millions of people) should also be compared to slavery.

Redbrickbear said:

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Porteroso said:

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You can find faults in any major figure, but making mistakes is hardly a reason to dismiss everything about the person.

If I thought you guys were truly interested in equality, I'd think you were just wanting to present a balanced view of an important and flawed figure, but in reality I know some of you just hate hearing about the Civil rights movement and love the chance to trash its figurehead.

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We just spent the past few years in this country tearing down statues and remaining buildings of any man from our history who could be found to have faults.

Now you want us to ignore the many many problematic elements of MLK's character and actions?

No chance

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Read again bud, you missed it completely.. And you're the problem. One side doesn't something the other cries and whinges about it, of course doing the same exact thing when the first opportunity presents itself.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Porteroso said:

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You can find faults in any major figure, but making mistakes is hardly a reason to dismiss everything about the person.

If I thought you guys were truly interested in equality, I'd think you were just wanting to present a balanced view of an important and flawed figure, but in reality I know some of you just hate hearing about the Civil rights movement and love the chance to trash its figurehead.

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You think we should honor misogynists and homophobes? Do you believe misogyny and homophobia should warrant statue destruction or do you support it?

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If i could get a lense to look into your mind, it would take hardly any time to find a reason to discredit you.

I like anyone with half a brain realize that people are fallible, but it takes fallible people to advance any ideal. If we waited for an infallible person to advance equality, or say write a Constitution, America would be a far worse place. There is nothing wrong with honoring the work a fallible person did to advance a worthy cause, which is what happens on MLK day.

Porteroso said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Porteroso said:

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You can find faults in any major figure, but making mistakes is hardly a reason to dismiss everything about the person.

If I thought you guys were truly interested in equality, I'd think you were just wanting to present a balanced view of an important and flawed figure, but in reality I know some of you just hate hearing about the Civil rights movement and love the chance to trash its figurehead.

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We just spent the past few years in this country tearing down statues and remaining buildings of any man from our history who could be found to have faults.

Now you want us to ignore the many many problematic elements of MLK's character and actions?

No chance

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Read again bud, you missed it completely.. And you're the problem. One side doesn't something the other cries and whinges about it, of course doing the same exact thing when the first opportunity presents itself.

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Where did I advocated taking down a statue of MLK?

And of course no where in America has a single statue or plaque of him been taken down.

I have simple pointed out the numerous flaws in this character and criminal acts attributed to him.

Porteroso said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Porteroso said:

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You can find faults in any major figure, but making mistakes is hardly a reason to dismiss everything about the person.

If I thought you guys were truly interested in equality, I'd think you were just wanting to present a balanced view of an important and flawed figure, but in reality I know some of you just hate hearing about the Civil rights movement and love the chance to trash its figurehead.

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We just spent the past few years in this country tearing down statues and remaining buildings of any man from our history who could be found to have faults.

Now you want us to ignore the many many problematic elements of MLK's character and actions?

No chance

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One side doesn't something the other cries and whinges about it, of course doing the same exact thing when the first opportunity presents itself.

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How old are you ?

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

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You are leaving out the participation in rape and the physical abuse of prostitutes.

Rape and abuse of prostitutes are crimes and should be compared to the crime of slavery.

Flirting with Marxism & communism (criminal ideologies that killed and enslaved hundred's of millions of people) should also be compared to slavery.

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Right…

ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

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Agree for the most part. But I think you also have to view the person through the lens of the times in which he or she lived. Slavery is of course rightly viewed a lot worse than adultery in today's world. However, during the late 1700's, when our founding fathers such as George Washington owned slaves. that was not the case.

And there is an interesting dichotomy between movements like "me too" and those same groups that believe any questioning of MLK's character when it comes to his treatment (and abuse - see Abernathy's account) of women is off limits.

Mothra said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

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Agree for the most part. But I think you also have to view the person through the lens of the times in which he or she lived. Slavery is of course rightly viewed a lot worse than adultery in today's world. However, during the late 1700's, when our founding fathers such as George Washington owned slaves. that was not the case.

And there is an interesting dichotomy between movements like "me too" and those same groups that believe any questioning of MLK's character when it comes to his treatment (and abuse - see Abernathy's account) of women is off limits.

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While judging people in history by today's standards is not exactly fair, it does need to be recognized that people like William Wilberforce were able to clearly see the issues with slavery regardless of the legality.

The same may be said of prolifers in today's world.

Mothra said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

---

Agree for the most part. But I think you also have to view the person through the lens of the times in which he or she lived. Slavery is of course rightly viewed a lot worse than adultery in today's world. However, during the late 1700's, when our founding fathers such as George Washington owned slaves. that was not the case.

And there is an interesting dichotomy between movements like "me too" and those same groups that believe any questioning of MLK's character when it comes to his treatment (and abuse - see Abernathy's account) of women is off limits.

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I think the difficulty is that there were people, like John Adams as one example, who were not in favor of slavery. It was obviously a politically nuanced issue at the time, but its lack of acceptance had already taken hold in the Western world. Slavery was a choice based on principles for the individuals who practiced it. They had the autonomy for manumission should they have chosen. I don't think that can be overlooked even accounting for the context of the times. It would be like arguing a justification for MLKs approach to women in context of the 60's sexual environment and gender power dynamic. He certainly shouldn't be held out as a #meto hero, and that's not what he is revered for. Founding Fathers are revered for freedom and individual rights, making their failings much more of a dichotomy.

Redbrickbear said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

---

You are leaving out the participation in rape and the physical abuse of prostitutes.

Rape and abuse of prostitutes are crimes and should be compared to the crime of slavery.

Flirting with Marxism & communism (criminal ideologies that killed and enslaved hundred's of millions of people) should also be compared to slavery.

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Is there any actual evidence of this outside of one persons essay regarding some FBI documents? an organisation that was notorious at the time for having a vendetta against MLK

Judging from this report on the claim by the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/08/martin-luther-king-david-garrow-essay-claims its even more tenuous:

Quote:

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the more explosive claim in Garrow's almost 8,000-word story hinges on a handwritten annotation on an FBI report alleging that King was present during a woman's rape...............

The intelligence document Garrow cites a summary report, though not a direct transcript.............

The document does not name the alleged rapist, but Garrow identifies him as the Rev Logan Kearse, a Baptist minister from Baltimore.............

Alongside that typed passage are three barely legible handwritten notes that include two editorial suggestions and the addition of an explosive new claim: "King looked on, laughed and offered advice."

Amazingly, Garrow hangs his entire claim of King's participation in a sexual assault on this tenuous, handwritten notation. Particularly suspect is the description of King "look[ing] on", given that the report was supposedly drawn from audio recordings only

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ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

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How about participating in a rape? Does that meet the mark?

Additionally, slavery was international. The same people who were slaves ALL had ancestors who captured/sold/owned slaves. Times changed and slavery inevitably ended. Rape of innocent women by pastors, however, has not been acceptable for significantly longer.

50% of Black Americans viewed him negatively…

“72% of Americans disapproved of #MLK when he was shot—as well as 50% of Black Americans. We should never forget that. We all love him now that the worms got his body. But when he was speaking the truth, he was radically unsettling folk.” — Cornel West https://t.co/PftYTcsj08

— Boston Review (@BostonReview) January 15, 2023

Golem said:

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ATL Bear said:

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The hard part is equating extramarital affairs with participation in slavery. I don't want any statues torn down of anyone, but I don't think it's a valid comparison. There were plenty of people, including founding Fathers who had already rejected slavery as an institution.

Again, I disagree with the modernist history rewrite, but I do think it's an Apple/Orange equivalency of comparing MLKs flaws with slavery participants. Why can't we simply marvel at the accomplishment of the movement of MLK and the Founding Fathers?

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How about participating in a rape? Does that meet the mark?

Additionally, slavery was international. The same people who were slaves ALL had ancestors who captured/sold/owned slaves. Times changed and slavery inevitably ended. Rape of innocent women by pastors, however, has not been acceptable for significantly longer.

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Not sure what someone's ancestor did has to do with this. I don't expect to be responsible for your's or my ancestor's behaviors. The reparation folks want to do that.

But slavery was internationally rejected too. Sally Hemings was a free citizen in France and Jefferson put her back into slavery when they moved back to America.

The MLK rape allegations seem to be pretty spurious, but he was definitely a serial philanderer, poor husband, and not a great Father. Certainly flawed.

MLK's mother Alberta King was herself assassinated on June 30th 1974 while playing the organ during Church services .

A Church deacon was also shot to death .

The killer was a 23 year old black man Marcus Wayne Chennault ...a member of the Black Hebrew Israelites .

A black supremacy cult that hates main stream Christians and is still in existence today .

Canada2017 said:

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Porteroso said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Porteroso said:

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You can find faults in any major figure, but making mistakes is hardly a reason to dismiss everything about the person.

If I thought you guys were truly interested in equality, I'd think you were just wanting to present a balanced view of an important and flawed figure, but in reality I know some of you just hate hearing about the Civil rights movement and love the chance to trash its figurehead.

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We just spent the past few years in this country tearing down statues and remaining buildings of any man from our history who could be found to have faults.

Now you want us to ignore the many many problematic elements of MLK's character and actions?

No chance

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One side doesn't something the other cries and whinges about it, of course doing the same exact thing when the first opportunity presents itself.

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How old are you ?

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I'm just pretending to be surprised.

Porteroso said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Porteroso said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Porteroso said:

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You can find faults in any major figure, but making mistakes is hardly a reason to dismiss everything about the person.

If I thought you guys were truly interested in equality, I'd think you were just wanting to present a balanced view of an important and flawed figure, but in reality I know some of you just hate hearing about the Civil rights movement and love the chance to trash its figurehead.

---

We just spent the past few years in this country tearing down statues and remaining buildings of any man from our history who could be found to have faults.

Now you want us to ignore the many many problematic elements of MLK's character and actions?

No chance

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One side doesn't something the other cries and whinges about it, of course doing the same exact thing when the first opportunity presents itself.

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How old are you ?

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I'm just pretending to be surprised.

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Try a new angle .

Straightforward exchange .

I will go first .

I am 67 , retired, live in Colorado, believe in God and probably make more mistakes than most here .

You ?