Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

I'm not going to tell you I told you so, Trump is a crook. I'm astonished that this hasn't been brought up. I told you good Trumpers that he is NO billionaire. Grossly overvaluing real estate when getting a loan from lenders is your basic FRAUD. Furthermore, the fraud was so agreedous that the judge has suspending crooks license to do business in NY. That has to hurt that clown. You guys really want someone like this to the your President. Oh, and also, he called for the assignation for Gen. Millie (sp ) Just who in the F does this? This dud is unhinged.

---

Trump took out loans and paid them back. With interest. Isn't that how things are supposed to work? When lending money, any credible bank will do their due diligence regarding property valuations. Please explain where a crime took place. Thanks in advance.

P.S.- I am glad that P U S S Y Mark Milley has stepped down. He was more focused on pronouns and "white rage" than keeping our country safe. Good riddance.

---

What about that do you not understand?

---

Donald Trump took out loans from banks. Donald Trump paid the loans back. Donald Trump was happy. The banks were happy. You TDSers are NEVER happy.

---

That is not how it works. I have owned a large bank. I think I know what bank fraud is. That is fraud. If its wasn't such an absolute fraud, then the judge is going to liquidate his businesses in NY. You don't think that is serious?

---

If your bank didn't do its own appraisals, but merely trusted the person applying for the loan... then you didn't own a bank, you owned a failure.

It's on the bank to do the appraisal. If they didn't, then they are stupid AF.

---

I have no idea of the inner workings of a bank or financial institutions and I have to admit bean-counters are not my favorite people for a myriad of reasons. But, I have been on numerous development teams over the last 30 years for land development doing the traffic engineering.

In my experience an independent 3rd party appraisal is required by the bank and the developer pays for it. As with every developer I have worked with you have your own analysis and know the answers before you are going for financing. I would have to believe the bank has its own due diligence or at least they let you believe they are the smartest people in the room.

That said, you would be shocked at the number of organizations (financial and governmental) that send in their junior staff for the methodology discussions, I guarantee the developers have the A team in their and those institutions give away the farm without even realizing it because we have the answers before the meeting.

---

I have been a partner in multiple real estate deals. Raw land, multi-family, commercial, light industrial and storage units. I have never been involved in a financial situation where the bank didn't require an appraisal from a reputable appraiser of their choosing. Never seen it before. I can't imagine that the bank truly felt like they were defrauded by Trump... since they have yet to press charges or seek restitution through a lawsuit.

This is something generated by the DNC, to try and pile on to the lawfare against their biggest enemy.

---

On this one, I am in 100% agreement. This is a vendetta by NY. Sad. because Trump helped the City of New York and this area out in the past. This is a NY Post article documenting it. There was a time that Trump was a visionary developer, not just the caricature he has become.


How Donald Trump helped save New York City (nypost.com)

---

Or he's guilty

---

There is guilt and guilt. In this case, he did what is a common practice and being made an example. I am sure he is guilty of the property appraisals differing from the County Property Appraiser. I would go one further, I bet the appraisal Trump did differs from Deustche Bank's and they both differ from County Property Appraisal. It happens every day in every State and every Nation. To destroy his business over this?

You don't want the Property Appraiser changing your property value every appraisal or Zillow reading!

This is ridiculous, unless she has more this is laughable.

Classified Docs, Jan 6th? We will see. This is a joke.

---

He's guilty. That's been determined.

---

Thank you for channeling the Red Queen, Waco, but the adults did not ask for that.

---

I don't think many on here get that people's lives are impacted by the actions we discuss. This case is a joke. As many on here know, I have no issue indicting on real crimes, but when the evidence shows this. It is laughable, if not that it is for real.

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake. Take classified docs, if they have proof he showed nuclear sub deployments to a Aussie, that is an issue. This NY case is a joke. Jan 6th, how much did he play into it? Stormy, who cares.?

---

FWIW, ABC News was careful last night to specify that Trump allegedly spoke about subs but did not

a) show any actual documents to the Australian guy, or
b) reveal any actual classified information in the conversation

ABC News repeatedly described the information as 'sensitive' while repeated that no clear violation of law occurred.

---

Did Trump tell the Aussie whether he thought Denzel or Gene Hackman did a better job of commanding the submarine after the EAM was garbled? Do we know whether Trump took a position on the Lipizzaner Stallions? Depending on those answers, Jack Smith may have further indictments. We know all of this is ligit because everything else the Democrats have done the past 8 years has been legit.

Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus said the Honorable Senator Richard Blumenthal.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

I'm not going to tell you I told you so, Trump is a crook. I'm astonished that this hasn't been brought up. I told you good Trumpers that he is NO billionaire. Grossly overvaluing real estate when getting a loan from lenders is your basic FRAUD. Furthermore, the fraud was so agreedous that the judge has suspending crooks license to do business in NY. That has to hurt that clown. You guys really want someone like this to the your President. Oh, and also, he called for the assignation for Gen. Millie (sp ) Just who in the F does this? This dud is unhinged.

---

Trump took out loans and paid them back. With interest. Isn't that how things are supposed to work? When lending money, any credible bank will do their due diligence regarding property valuations. Please explain where a crime took place. Thanks in advance.

P.S.- I am glad that P U S S Y Mark Milley has stepped down. He was more focused on pronouns and "white rage" than keeping our country safe. Good riddance.

---

What about that do you not understand?

---

Donald Trump took out loans from banks. Donald Trump paid the loans back. Donald Trump was happy. The banks were happy. You TDSers are NEVER happy.

---

That is not how it works. I have owned a large bank. I think I know what bank fraud is. That is fraud. If its wasn't such an absolute fraud, then the judge is going to liquidate his businesses in NY. You don't think that is serious?

---

If your bank didn't do its own appraisals, but merely trusted the person applying for the loan... then you didn't own a bank, you owned a failure.

It's on the bank to do the appraisal. If they didn't, then they are stupid AF.

---

I have no idea of the inner workings of a bank or financial institutions and I have to admit bean-counters are not my favorite people for a myriad of reasons. But, I have been on numerous development teams over the last 30 years for land development doing the traffic engineering.

In my experience an independent 3rd party appraisal is required by the bank and the developer pays for it. As with every developer I have worked with you have your own analysis and know the answers before you are going for financing. I would have to believe the bank has its own due diligence or at least they let you believe they are the smartest people in the room.

That said, you would be shocked at the number of organizations (financial and governmental) that send in their junior staff for the methodology discussions, I guarantee the developers have the A team in their and those institutions give away the farm without even realizing it because we have the answers before the meeting.

---

I have been a partner in multiple real estate deals. Raw land, multi-family, commercial, light industrial and storage units. I have never been involved in a financial situation where the bank didn't require an appraisal from a reputable appraiser of their choosing. Never seen it before. I can't imagine that the bank truly felt like they were defrauded by Trump... since they have yet to press charges or seek restitution through a lawsuit.

This is something generated by the DNC, to try and pile on to the lawfare against their biggest enemy.

---

On this one, I am in 100% agreement. This is a vendetta by NY. Sad. because Trump helped the City of New York and this area out in the past. This is a NY Post article documenting it. There was a time that Trump was a visionary developer, not just the caricature he has become.


How Donald Trump helped save New York City (nypost.com)

---

Or he's guilty

---

There is guilt and guilt. In this case, he did what is a common practice and being made an example. I am sure he is guilty of the property appraisals differing from the County Property Appraiser. I would go one further, I bet the appraisal Trump did differs from Deustche Bank's and they both differ from County Property Appraisal. It happens every day in every State and every Nation. To destroy his business over this?

You don't want the Property Appraiser changing your property value every appraisal or Zillow reading!

This is ridiculous, unless she has more this is laughable.

Classified Docs, Jan 6th? We will see. This is a joke.

---

He's guilty. That's been determined.

---

Thank you for channeling the Red Queen, Waco, but the adults did not ask for that.

---

I don't think many on here get that people's lives are impacted by the actions we discuss. This case is a joke. As many on here know, I have no issue indicting on real crimes, but when the evidence shows this. It is laughable, if not that it is for real.

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake. Take classified docs, if they have proof he showed nuclear sub deployments to a Aussie, that is an issue. This NY case is a joke. Jan 6th, how much did he play into it? Stormy, who cares.?

---

FWIW, ABC News was careful last night to specify that Trump allegedly spoke about subs but did not

a) show any actual documents to the Australian guy, or
b) reveal any actual classified information in the conversation

ABC News repeatedly described the information as 'sensitive' while repeated that no clear violation of law occurred.

---

I agree with this. The question is if there was enough for a Grand Jury to indict do you just ignore because the media didn't show the public everything...

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

I'm not going to tell you I told you so, Trump is a crook. I'm astonished that this hasn't been brought up. I told you good Trumpers that he is NO billionaire. Grossly overvaluing real estate when getting a loan from lenders is your basic FRAUD. Furthermore, the fraud was so agreedous that the judge has suspending crooks license to do business in NY. That has to hurt that clown. You guys really want someone like this to the your President. Oh, and also, he called for the assignation for Gen. Millie (sp ) Just who in the F does this? This dud is unhinged.

---

Trump took out loans and paid them back. With interest. Isn't that how things are supposed to work? When lending money, any credible bank will do their due diligence regarding property valuations. Please explain where a crime took place. Thanks in advance.

P.S.- I am glad that P U S S Y Mark Milley has stepped down. He was more focused on pronouns and "white rage" than keeping our country safe. Good riddance.

---

What about that do you not understand?

---

Donald Trump took out loans from banks. Donald Trump paid the loans back. Donald Trump was happy. The banks were happy. You TDSers are NEVER happy.

---

That is not how it works. I have owned a large bank. I think I know what bank fraud is. That is fraud. If its wasn't such an absolute fraud, then the judge is going to liquidate his businesses in NY. You don't think that is serious?

---

If your bank didn't do its own appraisals, but merely trusted the person applying for the loan... then you didn't own a bank, you owned a failure.

It's on the bank to do the appraisal. If they didn't, then they are stupid AF.

---

I have no idea of the inner workings of a bank or financial institutions and I have to admit bean-counters are not my favorite people for a myriad of reasons. But, I have been on numerous development teams over the last 30 years for land development doing the traffic engineering.

In my experience an independent 3rd party appraisal is required by the bank and the developer pays for it. As with every developer I have worked with you have your own analysis and know the answers before you are going for financing. I would have to believe the bank has its own due diligence or at least they let you believe they are the smartest people in the room.

That said, you would be shocked at the number of organizations (financial and governmental) that send in their junior staff for the methodology discussions, I guarantee the developers have the A team in their and those institutions give away the farm without even realizing it because we have the answers before the meeting.

---

I have been a partner in multiple real estate deals. Raw land, multi-family, commercial, light industrial and storage units. I have never been involved in a financial situation where the bank didn't require an appraisal from a reputable appraiser of their choosing. Never seen it before. I can't imagine that the bank truly felt like they were defrauded by Trump... since they have yet to press charges or seek restitution through a lawsuit.

This is something generated by the DNC, to try and pile on to the lawfare against their biggest enemy.

---

On this one, I am in 100% agreement. This is a vendetta by NY. Sad. because Trump helped the City of New York and this area out in the past. This is a NY Post article documenting it. There was a time that Trump was a visionary developer, not just the caricature he has become.


How Donald Trump helped save New York City (nypost.com)

---

Or he's guilty

---

There is guilt and guilt. In this case, he did what is a common practice and being made an example. I am sure he is guilty of the property appraisals differing from the County Property Appraiser. I would go one further, I bet the appraisal Trump did differs from Deustche Bank's and they both differ from County Property Appraisal. It happens every day in every State and every Nation. To destroy his business over this?

You don't want the Property Appraiser changing your property value every appraisal or Zillow reading!

This is ridiculous, unless she has more this is laughable.

Classified Docs, Jan 6th? We will see. This is a joke.

---

He's guilty. That's been determined.

---

Thank you for channeling the Red Queen, Waco, but the adults did not ask for that.

---

I don't think many on here get that people's lives are impacted by the actions we discuss. This case is a joke. As many on here know, I have no issue indicting on real crimes, but when the evidence shows this. It is laughable, if not that it is for real.

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake. Take classified docs, if they have proof he showed nuclear sub deployments to a Aussie, that is an issue. This NY case is a joke. Jan 6th, how much did he play into it? Stormy, who cares.?

---

FWIW, ABC News was careful last night to specify that Trump allegedly spoke about subs but did not

a) show any actual documents to the Australian guy, or
b) reveal any actual classified information in the conversation

ABC News repeatedly described the information as 'sensitive' while repeated that no clear violation of law occurred.

---

I agree with this. The question is if there was enough for a Grand Jury to indict do you just ignore because the media didn't show the public everything...

---

The problem is spin. If potential jurors hear over and over that Trump has committed a crime when in actual fact the details are in dispute, that needs a gag order every bit as much as Trump does.

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

I'm not going to tell you I told you so, Trump is a crook. I'm astonished that this hasn't been brought up. I told you good Trumpers that he is NO billionaire. Grossly overvaluing real estate when getting a loan from lenders is your basic FRAUD. Furthermore, the fraud was so agreedous that the judge has suspending crooks license to do business in NY. That has to hurt that clown. You guys really want someone like this to the your President. Oh, and also, he called for the assignation for Gen. Millie (sp ) Just who in the F does this? This dud is unhinged.

---

Trump took out loans and paid them back. With interest. Isn't that how things are supposed to work? When lending money, any credible bank will do their due diligence regarding property valuations. Please explain where a crime took place. Thanks in advance.

P.S.- I am glad that P U S S Y Mark Milley has stepped down. He was more focused on pronouns and "white rage" than keeping our country safe. Good riddance.

---

What about that do you not understand?

---

Donald Trump took out loans from banks. Donald Trump paid the loans back. Donald Trump was happy. The banks were happy. You TDSers are NEVER happy.

---

That is not how it works. I have owned a large bank. I think I know what bank fraud is. That is fraud. If its wasn't such an absolute fraud, then the judge is going to liquidate his businesses in NY. You don't think that is serious?

---

If your bank didn't do its own appraisals, but merely trusted the person applying for the loan... then you didn't own a bank, you owned a failure.

It's on the bank to do the appraisal. If they didn't, then they are stupid AF.

---

I have no idea of the inner workings of a bank or financial institutions and I have to admit bean-counters are not my favorite people for a myriad of reasons. But, I have been on numerous development teams over the last 30 years for land development doing the traffic engineering.

In my experience an independent 3rd party appraisal is required by the bank and the developer pays for it. As with every developer I have worked with you have your own analysis and know the answers before you are going for financing. I would have to believe the bank has its own due diligence or at least they let you believe they are the smartest people in the room.

That said, you would be shocked at the number of organizations (financial and governmental) that send in their junior staff for the methodology discussions, I guarantee the developers have the A team in their and those institutions give away the farm without even realizing it because we have the answers before the meeting.

---

I have been a partner in multiple real estate deals. Raw land, multi-family, commercial, light industrial and storage units. I have never been involved in a financial situation where the bank didn't require an appraisal from a reputable appraiser of their choosing. Never seen it before. I can't imagine that the bank truly felt like they were defrauded by Trump... since they have yet to press charges or seek restitution through a lawsuit.

This is something generated by the DNC, to try and pile on to the lawfare against their biggest enemy.

---

On this one, I am in 100% agreement. This is a vendetta by NY. Sad. because Trump helped the City of New York and this area out in the past. This is a NY Post article documenting it. There was a time that Trump was a visionary developer, not just the caricature he has become.


How Donald Trump helped save New York City (nypost.com)

---

Or he's guilty

---

There is guilt and guilt. In this case, he did what is a common practice and being made an example. I am sure he is guilty of the property appraisals differing from the County Property Appraiser. I would go one further, I bet the appraisal Trump did differs from Deustche Bank's and they both differ from County Property Appraisal. It happens every day in every State and every Nation. To destroy his business over this?

You don't want the Property Appraiser changing your property value every appraisal or Zillow reading!

This is ridiculous, unless she has more this is laughable.

Classified Docs, Jan 6th? We will see. This is a joke.

---

He's guilty. That's been determined.

---

Thank you for channeling the Red Queen, Waco, but the adults did not ask for that.

---

I don't think many on here get that people's lives are impacted by the actions we discuss. This case is a joke. As many on here know, I have no issue indicting on real crimes, but when the evidence shows this. It is laughable, if not that it is for real.

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake. Take classified docs, if they have proof he showed nuclear sub deployments to a Aussie, that is an issue. This NY case is a joke. Jan 6th, how much did he play into it? Stormy, who cares.?

---

FWIW, ABC News was careful last night to specify that Trump allegedly spoke about subs but did not

a) show any actual documents to the Australian guy, or
b) reveal any actual classified information in the conversation

ABC News repeatedly described the information as 'sensitive' while repeated that no clear violation of law occurred.

---

I agree with this. The question is if there was enough for a Grand Jury to indict do you just ignore because the media didn't show the public everything...

---

The problem is spin. If potential jurors hear over and over that Trump has committed a crime when in actual fact the details are in dispute, that needs a gag order every bit as much as Trump does.

---

I agree with that.

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

ShooterTX said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

J.R. said:

---

I'm not going to tell you I told you so, Trump is a crook. I'm astonished that this hasn't been brought up. I told you good Trumpers that he is NO billionaire. Grossly overvaluing real estate when getting a loan from lenders is your basic FRAUD. Furthermore, the fraud was so agreedous that the judge has suspending crooks license to do business in NY. That has to hurt that clown. You guys really want someone like this to the your President. Oh, and also, he called for the assignation for Gen. Millie (sp ) Just who in the F does this? This dud is unhinged.

---

Trump took out loans and paid them back. With interest. Isn't that how things are supposed to work? When lending money, any credible bank will do their due diligence regarding property valuations. Please explain where a crime took place. Thanks in advance.

P.S.- I am glad that P U S S Y Mark Milley has stepped down. He was more focused on pronouns and "white rage" than keeping our country safe. Good riddance.

---

What about that do you not understand?

---

Donald Trump took out loans from banks. Donald Trump paid the loans back. Donald Trump was happy. The banks were happy. You TDSers are NEVER happy.

---

That is not how it works. I have owned a large bank. I think I know what bank fraud is. That is fraud. If its wasn't such an absolute fraud, then the judge is going to liquidate his businesses in NY. You don't think that is serious?

---

If your bank didn't do its own appraisals, but merely trusted the person applying for the loan... then you didn't own a bank, you owned a failure.

It's on the bank to do the appraisal. If they didn't, then they are stupid AF.

---

I have no idea of the inner workings of a bank or financial institutions and I have to admit bean-counters are not my favorite people for a myriad of reasons. But, I have been on numerous development teams over the last 30 years for land development doing the traffic engineering.

In my experience an independent 3rd party appraisal is required by the bank and the developer pays for it. As with every developer I have worked with you have your own analysis and know the answers before you are going for financing. I would have to believe the bank has its own due diligence or at least they let you believe they are the smartest people in the room.

That said, you would be shocked at the number of organizations (financial and governmental) that send in their junior staff for the methodology discussions, I guarantee the developers have the A team in their and those institutions give away the farm without even realizing it because we have the answers before the meeting.

---

I have been a partner in multiple real estate deals. Raw land, multi-family, commercial, light industrial and storage units. I have never been involved in a financial situation where the bank didn't require an appraisal from a reputable appraiser of their choosing. Never seen it before. I can't imagine that the bank truly felt like they were defrauded by Trump... since they have yet to press charges or seek restitution through a lawsuit.

This is something generated by the DNC, to try and pile on to the lawfare against their biggest enemy.

---

On this one, I am in 100% agreement. This is a vendetta by NY. Sad. because Trump helped the City of New York and this area out in the past. This is a NY Post article documenting it. There was a time that Trump was a visionary developer, not just the caricature he has become.


How Donald Trump helped save New York City (nypost.com)

---

Or he's guilty

---

There is guilt and guilt. In this case, he did what is a common practice and being made an example. I am sure he is guilty of the property appraisals differing from the County Property Appraiser. I would go one further, I bet the appraisal Trump did differs from Deustche Bank's and they both differ from County Property Appraisal. It happens every day in every State and every Nation. To destroy his business over this?

You don't want the Property Appraiser changing your property value every appraisal or Zillow reading!

This is ridiculous, unless she has more this is laughable.

Classified Docs, Jan 6th? We will see. This is a joke.

---

He's guilty. That's been determined.

---

Thank you for channeling the Red Queen, Waco, but the adults did not ask for that.

---

I don't think many on here get that people's lives are impacted by the actions we discuss. This case is a joke. As many on here know, I have no issue indicting on real crimes, but when the evidence shows this. It is laughable, if not that it is for real.

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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ShooterTX said:

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J.R. said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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J.R. said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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J.R. said:

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I'm not going to tell you I told you so, Trump is a crook. I'm astonished that this hasn't been brought up. I told you good Trumpers that he is NO billionaire. Grossly overvaluing real estate when getting a loan from lenders is your basic FRAUD. Furthermore, the fraud was so agreedous that the judge has suspending crooks license to do business in NY. That has to hurt that clown. You guys really want someone like this to the your President. Oh, and also, he called for the assignation for Gen. Millie (sp ) Just who in the F does this? This dud is unhinged.

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Trump took out loans and paid them back. With interest. Isn't that how things are supposed to work? When lending money, any credible bank will do their due diligence regarding property valuations. Please explain where a crime took place. Thanks in advance.

P.S.- I am glad that P U S S Y Mark Milley has stepped down. He was more focused on pronouns and "white rage" than keeping our country safe. Good riddance.

---

What about that do you not understand?

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Donald Trump took out loans from banks. Donald Trump paid the loans back. Donald Trump was happy. The banks were happy. You TDSers are NEVER happy.

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That is not how it works. I have owned a large bank. I think I know what bank fraud is. That is fraud. If its wasn't such an absolute fraud, then the judge is going to liquidate his businesses in NY. You don't think that is serious?

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If your bank didn't do its own appraisals, but merely trusted the person applying for the loan... then you didn't own a bank, you owned a failure.

It's on the bank to do the appraisal. If they didn't, then they are stupid AF.

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I have no idea of the inner workings of a bank or financial institutions and I have to admit bean-counters are not my favorite people for a myriad of reasons. But, I have been on numerous development teams over the last 30 years for land development doing the traffic engineering.

In my experience an independent 3rd party appraisal is required by the bank and the developer pays for it. As with every developer I have worked with you have your own analysis and know the answers before you are going for financing. I would have to believe the bank has its own due diligence or at least they let you believe they are the smartest people in the room.

That said, you would be shocked at the number of organizations (financial and governmental) that send in their junior staff for the methodology discussions, I guarantee the developers have the A team in their and those institutions give away the farm without even realizing it because we have the answers before the meeting.

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I have been a partner in multiple real estate deals. Raw land, multi-family, commercial, light industrial and storage units. I have never been involved in a financial situation where the bank didn't require an appraisal from a reputable appraiser of their choosing. Never seen it before. I can't imagine that the bank truly felt like they were defrauded by Trump... since they have yet to press charges or seek restitution through a lawsuit.

This is something generated by the DNC, to try and pile on to the lawfare against their biggest enemy.

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On this one, I am in 100% agreement. This is a vendetta by NY. Sad. because Trump helped the City of New York and this area out in the past. This is a NY Post article documenting it. There was a time that Trump was a visionary developer, not just the caricature he has become.


How Donald Trump helped save New York City (nypost.com)

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Or he's guilty

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There is guilt and guilt. In this case, he did what is a common practice and being made an example. I am sure he is guilty of the property appraisals differing from the County Property Appraiser. I would go one further, I bet the appraisal Trump did differs from Deustche Bank's and they both differ from County Property Appraisal. It happens every day in every State and every Nation. To destroy his business over this?

You don't want the Property Appraiser changing your property value every appraisal or Zillow reading!

This is ridiculous, unless she has more this is laughable.

Classified Docs, Jan 6th? We will see. This is a joke.

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He's guilty. That's been determined.

---

Thank you for channeling the Red Queen, Waco, but the adults did not ask for that.

---

I don't think many on here get that people's lives are impacted by the actions we discuss. This case is a joke. As many on here know, I have no issue indicting on real crimes, but when the evidence shows this. It is laughable, if not that it is for real.

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

Redbrickbear said:

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This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

---

Oh please, I believe I remember reading Florida real estate publication from around 2020 giving Mar a Lago a nine-figure valuation. Where did $25 million come from?

ABC BEAR said:

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4th and Inches said:

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sombear said:

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4th and Inches said:

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sombear said:

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GrowlTowel said:

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Who is the victim that was defrauded?

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According to NY, it was fraud the moment he falsified the applications.

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its an opinion of value.. its not fraud

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In case anyone misinterpreted my post, I was not defending NY but rather, just summarizing the position NY is taking and that the state statute does not require a "victim."

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understood

I think the hingepoint is that its not falsified if its an opinion of value..

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A difference of opinion is on trial in all of the cases against Trump.

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Hih? Said the Law of the Land

Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

---

Oh please, I believe I remember reading Florida real estate publication from around 2020 giving Mar a Lago a nine-figure valuation. Where did $25 million come from?

---

"New York State judge last Tuesday place Mar-a-Lago's value in a range of $18 million to $27.6 million"

No idea how the judge came up with that number.

But it's somewhat impressive how the regime does not even care about facts (houses down the street on 0.45 acres are going for $40 million)…it just cares about getting Trump.

Redbrickbear said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

---

Oh please, I believe I remember reading Florida real estate publication from around 2020 giving Mar a Lago a nine-figure valuation. Where did $25 million come from?

---

"New York State judge last Tuesday place Mar-a-Lago's value in a range of $18 million to $27.6 million"

No idea how the judge came up with that number.

But it's somewhat impressive how the regime does not even care about facts (houses down the street on 0.45 acres are going for $40 million)…it just cares about getting Trump.

---

that judge appears to be a fl real estate guru and maybe also a biologist if he knows what a woman is..

Quote:

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You don't want the Property Appraiser changing your property value every appraisal or Zillow reading!

This is ridiculous, unless she has more this is laughable.

Classified Docs, Jan 6th? We will see. This is a joke.

---

He's guilty. That's been determined.

---

Thank you for channeling the Red Queen, Waco, but the adults did not ask for that.

---

I don't think many on here get that people's lives are impacted by the actions we discuss. This case is a joke. As many on here know, I have no issue indicting on real crimes, but when the evidence shows this. It is laughable, if not that it is for real.

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake. Take classified docs, if they have proof he showed nuclear sub deployments to a Aussie, that is an issue. This NY case is a joke. Jan 6th, how much did he play into it? Stormy, who cares.?

---

FWIW, ABC News was careful last night to specify that Trump allegedly spoke about subs but did not

a) show any actual documents to the Australian guy, or
b) reveal any actual classified information in the conversation

ABC News repeatedly described the information as 'sensitive' while repeated that no clear violation of law occurred.

---

I agree with this. The question is if there was enough for a Grand Jury to indict do you just ignore because the media didn't show the public everything...

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has it occurred to you this is just a media narrative and might not have happened at all?

FL said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

---

Head scratcher statement.

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

Redbrickbear said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

---

Oh please, I believe I remember reading Florida real estate publication from around 2020 giving Mar a Lago a nine-figure valuation. Where did $25 million come from?

---

"New York State judge last Tuesday place Mar-a-Lago's value in a range of $18 million to $27.6 million"

No idea how the judge came up with that number.

But it's somewhat impressive how the regime does not even care about facts (houses down the street on 0.45 acres are going for $40 million)…it just cares about getting Trump.

---

Trump will lose this case. And he will appeal. And then he will appeal some more. Eventually, it will all be made right. But along the way, Dems have an issue to toy with.

the process IS the punishment.

whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

---

Oh please, I believe I remember reading Florida real estate publication from around 2020 giving Mar a Lago a nine-figure valuation. Where did $25 million come from?

---

"New York State judge last Tuesday place Mar-a-Lago's value in a range of $18 million to $27.6 million"

No idea how the judge came up with that number.

But it's somewhat impressive how the regime does not even care about facts (houses down the street on 0.45 acres are going for $40 million)…it just cares about getting Trump.

---

Trump will lose this case. And he will appeal. And then he will appeal some more. Eventually, it will all be made right. But along the way, Dems have an issue to toy with.

the process IS the punishment.

---

Man, he didn't pull that fire alarm. Do you even see an alarm? CNN? Clan News Network. Rightwing cracks.

Do they have proof that was the alarm that went off? A building like that has to have hundreds of alarms. Why would they make an alarm so accessible?

What about Jan 6? That could be photoshopped.

I'm learning.

Mitch Blood Green said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

---

Oh please, I believe I remember reading Florida real estate publication from around 2020 giving Mar a Lago a nine-figure valuation. Where did $25 million come from?

---

"New York State judge last Tuesday place Mar-a-Lago's value in a range of $18 million to $27.6 million"

No idea how the judge came up with that number.

But it's somewhat impressive how the regime does not even care about facts (houses down the street on 0.45 acres are going for $40 million)…it just cares about getting Trump.

---

Trump will lose this case. And he will appeal. And then he will appeal some more. Eventually, it will all be made right. But along the way, Dems have an issue to toy with.

the process IS the punishment.

---

Man, he didn't pull that fire alarm. Do you even see an alarm? CNN? Clan News Network. Rightwing cracks.

Do they have proof that was the alarm that went off? A building like that has to have hundreds of alarms. Why would they make an alarm so accessible?

What about Jan 6? That could be photoshopped.

I'm learning.

---

Exactly. Guy commits a crime. Act is caught ON TAPE. Crime is something others (Republicans) engaging in protected 1st Amendment liberties are being prosecuted for. But he says it wasn't what it looks like. And since he's a Democrat, that's the end of it.

Good thing he's not a Republican.

Mitch Blood Green said:

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whiterock said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

---

Oh please, I believe I remember reading Florida real estate publication from around 2020 giving Mar a Lago a nine-figure valuation. Where did $25 million come from?

---

"New York State judge last Tuesday place Mar-a-Lago's value in a range of $18 million to $27.6 million"

No idea how the judge came up with that number.

But it's somewhat impressive how the regime does not even care about facts (houses down the street on 0.45 acres are going for $40 million)…it just cares about getting Trump.

---

Trump will lose this case. And he will appeal. And then he will appeal some more. Eventually, it will all be made right. But along the way, Dems have an issue to toy with.

the process IS the punishment.

---

Man, he didn't pull that fire alarm. Do you even see an alarm? CNN? Clan News Network. Rightwing cracks.

Do they have proof that was the alarm that went off? A building like that has to have hundreds of alarms. Why would they make an alarm so accessible?

What about Jan 6? That could be photoshopped.

I'm learning.

---

So you are saying Jan 6th was photoshopped? Didn't happen, it was photoshopped thousands of pictures, hours of video, live feeds were faked to set up Trump????

whiterock said:

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FL said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

---

Head scratcher statement.

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

FLBear5630 said:

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Mitch Blood Green said:

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whiterock said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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This property is listed for 40 million. pic.twitter.com/i5IxE9NMOD

— Anthony CHAD-DAD Knobbe (@anthonysramblin) October 6, 2023

---

Oh please, I believe I remember reading Florida real estate publication from around 2020 giving Mar a Lago a nine-figure valuation. Where did $25 million come from?

---

"New York State judge last Tuesday place Mar-a-Lago's value in a range of $18 million to $27.6 million"

No idea how the judge came up with that number.

But it's somewhat impressive how the regime does not even care about facts (houses down the street on 0.45 acres are going for $40 million)…it just cares about getting Trump.

---

Trump will lose this case. And he will appeal. And then he will appeal some more. Eventually, it will all be made right. But along the way, Dems have an issue to toy with.

the process IS the punishment.

---

Man, he didn't pull that fire alarm. Do you even see an alarm? CNN? Clan News Network. Rightwing cracks.

Do they have proof that was the alarm that went off? A building like that has to have hundreds of alarms. Why would they make an alarm so accessible?

What about Jan 6? That could be photoshopped.

I'm learning.

---

So you are saying Jan 6th was photoshopped? Didn't happen, it was photoshopped thousands of pictures, hours of video, live feeds were faked to set up Trump????

---

No. I'm communicating with our conservative brothers who pick and chose what is criminal. They will argue Bowman did is a crime (it is) but Trump is a witch hunt. (It's a crime)

FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FL said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

---

Head scratcher statement.

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

---

There is a difference between taking advantage of a misstep.misstatement for the purposes of political debate, versus using prosecutorial power as recon by fire to contrive pretexts for full blown prosecutions. No one can withstand the latter. Literally, that was the logic of the Bill of Rights and due process protections.

the MAL affair for any other POTUS would have (and should have) been dealt with by civil litigation, which would have been fully capable of resolving the dispute. And such would have afforded the usual thrust & parry of rhetoric about whether Trump should/shouldn't have them....meant to take them or ended up their by accident...him being careless with classified or having a right to them, etc.....all for the purpose of swaying public opinion for the next election. But Dems no longer trust the ballot box. They doubt they can defeat him. So they have chosen to persecute via prosecution, to take him out pre-emptively. (only it's not working, so far). In so doing, they have revealed their inner fascist - disagree with them and they will destroy you. Would I prefer a tidier candidate? Of course. But the untidy candidate is no threat to my liberty.

Don't get so focused on the rat that you ignore the rattlesnake. Trump may be a rat, but the Dems will bite to kill anything that startles them. Gotta deal with the snake FIRST.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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whiterock said:

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FL said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

---

Head scratcher statement.

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

---

There is a difference between taking advantage of a misstep.misstatement for the purposes of political debate, versus using prosecutorial power as recon by fire to contrive pretexts for full blown prosecutions. No one can withstand the latter. Literally, that was the logic of the Bill of Rights and due process protections.

the MAL affair for any other POTUS would have (and should have) been dealt with by civil litigation, which would have been fully capable of resolving the dispute. And such would have afforded the usual thrust & parry of rhetoric about whether Trump should/shouldn't have them....meant to take them or ended up their by accident...him being careless with classified or having a right to them, etc.....all for the purpose of swaying public opinion for the next election. But Dems no longer trust the ballot box. They doubt they can defeat him. So they have chosen to persecute via prosecution, to take him out pre-emptively. (only it's not working, so far). In so doing, they have revealed their inner fascist - disagree with them and they will destroy you. Would I prefer a tidier candidate? Of course. But the untidy candidate is no threat to my liberty.

Don't get so focused on the rat that you ignore the rattlesnake. Trump may be a rat, but the Dems will bite to kill anything that startles them. Gotta deal with the snake FIRST.

---

I don't disagree, Dems are vicious in how they operate. They move as a block, they will use the Govt agencies and they play for keeps. Trump is a dream come true for them. He can't help himself. He can't shut up. He is sloppy. He thinks he is Teflon. I think he is starting to understand in his current Court Case, he can get hurt in this.

That is why I like DeSantis, he is not sloppy. Plays the Govt system as good as Dems. And can be just as vicious. That is what we need to compete with Dems. Unfortunately Trump won't go away and DeSantis has the charisma of a rock.

Waco1947 said:

---

ABC BEAR said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

Who is the victim that was defrauded?

---

According to NY, it was fraud the moment he falsified the applications.

---

its an opinion of value.. its not fraud

---

In case anyone misinterpreted my post, I was not defending NY but rather, just summarizing the position NY is taking and that the state statute does not require a "victim."

---

understood

I think the hingepoint is that its not falsified if its an opinion of value..

---

A difference of opinion is on trial in all of the cases against Trump.

---

Hih? Said the Law of the Land

---

The Law of the Land is about as irrelevant as the Code of the West these days. We are in a period when every man does what is right in his own eyes.

ABC BEAR said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ABC BEAR said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

Who is the victim that was defrauded?

---

According to NY, it was fraud the moment he falsified the applications.

---

its an opinion of value.. its not fraud

---

In case anyone misinterpreted my post, I was not defending NY but rather, just summarizing the position NY is taking and that the state statute does not require a "victim."

---

understood

I think the hingepoint is that its not falsified if its an opinion of value..

---

A difference of opinion is on trial in all of the cases against Trump.

---

Hih? Said the Law of the Land

---

The Law of the Land is about as irrelevant as the Code of the West these days. We are in a period when every man does what is right in his own eyes.

---

That will come to an abrupt end, always has.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FL said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

---

Head scratcher statement.

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

---

There is a difference between taking advantage of a misstep.misstatement for the purposes of political debate, versus using prosecutorial power as recon by fire to contrive pretexts for full blown prosecutions. No one can withstand the latter. Literally, that was the logic of the Bill of Rights and due process protections.

the MAL affair for any other POTUS would have (and should have) been dealt with by civil litigation, which would have been fully capable of resolving the dispute. And such would have afforded the usual thrust & parry of rhetoric about whether Trump should/shouldn't have them....meant to take them or ended up their by accident...him being careless with classified or having a right to them, etc.....all for the purpose of swaying public opinion for the next election. But Dems no longer trust the ballot box. They doubt they can defeat him. So they have chosen to persecute via prosecution, to take him out pre-emptively. (only it's not working, so far). In so doing, they have revealed their inner fascist - disagree with them and they will destroy you. Would I prefer a tidier candidate? Of course. But the untidy candidate is no threat to my liberty.

Don't get so focused on the rat that you ignore the rattlesnake. Trump may be a rat, but the Dems will bite to kill anything that startles them. Gotta deal with the snake FIRST.

---

I don't disagree, Dems are vicious in how they operate. They move as a block, they will use the Govt agencies and they play for keeps. Trump is a dream come true for them. He can't help himself. He can't shut up. He is sloppy. He thinks he is Teflon. I think he is starting to understand in his current Court Case, he can get hurt in this.

That is why I like DeSantis, he is not sloppy. Plays the Govt system as good as Dems. And can be just as vicious. That is what we need to compete with Dems. Unfortunately Trump won't go away and DeSantis has the charisma of a rock.

---

you like Desantis because he's more conventional. Problem is, conventional for many has come to mean -"within norms/standards demanded by Democrats." Voters are not looking for that. Just look at the polling. They are looking for someone to overturn the tables of the money-changers.

Res ipsa loquitur. What does it tell you when a guy like Trump is leading the certain Democrat nominee? What does it tell you when a guy so sloppy is now over 50% support in some polls?
Firstly, it tells you that the things important to you are not high on most other lists.
Secondly, it tells you that the dynamics at play go beyond candidates.
Thirdly, it tells you we are in uncharted waters.

None of the conventional stuff can be taken as conventional at this time. Yes, conventional things still matter, but you cant assume that they will be the heaviest weights on the scale. You cannot even conclude that any of the conventional stuff is still conventional, to include the assumption that a conviction will end Trump. I understand the reasoning behind such a conclusion. What I don't understand is how someone could look at the situation without wondering "well, maybe not."

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FL said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

---

Head scratcher statement.

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

---

There is a difference between taking advantage of a misstep.misstatement for the purposes of political debate, versus using prosecutorial power as recon by fire to contrive pretexts for full blown prosecutions. No one can withstand the latter. Literally, that was the logic of the Bill of Rights and due process protections.

the MAL affair for any other POTUS would have (and should have) been dealt with by civil litigation, which would have been fully capable of resolving the dispute. And such would have afforded the usual thrust & parry of rhetoric about whether Trump should/shouldn't have them....meant to take them or ended up their by accident...him being careless with classified or having a right to them, etc.....all for the purpose of swaying public opinion for the next election. But Dems no longer trust the ballot box. They doubt they can defeat him. So they have chosen to persecute via prosecution, to take him out pre-emptively. (only it's not working, so far). In so doing, they have revealed their inner fascist - disagree with them and they will destroy you. Would I prefer a tidier candidate? Of course. But the untidy candidate is no threat to my liberty.

Don't get so focused on the rat that you ignore the rattlesnake. Trump may be a rat, but the Dems will bite to kill anything that startles them. Gotta deal with the snake FIRST.

---

I don't disagree, Dems are vicious in how they operate. They move as a block, they will use the Govt agencies and they play for keeps. Trump is a dream come true for them. He can't help himself. He can't shut up. He is sloppy. He thinks he is Teflon. I think he is starting to understand in his current Court Case, he can get hurt in this.

That is why I like DeSantis, he is not sloppy. Plays the Govt system as good as Dems. And can be just as vicious. That is what we need to compete with Dems. Unfortunately Trump won't go away and DeSantis has the charisma of a rock.

---

you like Desantis because he's more conventional. Problem is, conventional for many has come to mean -"within norms/standards demanded by Democrats." Voters are not looking for that. Just look at the polling. They are looking for someone to overturn the tables of the money-changers.

Res ipsa loquitur. What does it tell you when a guy like Trump is leading the certain Democrat nominee? What does it tell you when a guy so sloppy is now over 50% support in some polls?
Firstly, it tells you that the things important to you are not high on most other lists.
Secondly, it tells you that the dynamics at play go beyond candidates.
Thirdly, it tells you we are in uncharted waters.

None of the conventional stuff can be taken as conventional at this time. Yes, conventional things still matter, but you cant assume that they will be the heaviest weights on the scale. You cannot even conclude that any of the conventional stuff is still conventional, to include the assumption that a conviction will end Trump. I understand the reasoning behind such a conclusion. What I don't understand is how someone could look at the situation without wondering "well, maybe not."

---

You put more faith in polls than I do. Data is just as effective to create an outcome you want as it is to reveal.answers. I believe the polls are corralling us in a direction. Now, actuap primary wins occur, I will be coming around to your view. No votes have been cast and we are crowning a winner, that should set off warning bells.

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FL said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

---

Head scratcher statement.

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

---

There is a difference between taking advantage of a misstep.misstatement for the purposes of political debate, versus using prosecutorial power as recon by fire to contrive pretexts for full blown prosecutions. No one can withstand the latter. Literally, that was the logic of the Bill of Rights and due process protections.

the MAL affair for any other POTUS would have (and should have) been dealt with by civil litigation, which would have been fully capable of resolving the dispute. And such would have afforded the usual thrust & parry of rhetoric about whether Trump should/shouldn't have them....meant to take them or ended up their by accident...him being careless with classified or having a right to them, etc.....all for the purpose of swaying public opinion for the next election. But Dems no longer trust the ballot box. They doubt they can defeat him. So they have chosen to persecute via prosecution, to take him out pre-emptively. (only it's not working, so far). In so doing, they have revealed their inner fascist - disagree with them and they will destroy you. Would I prefer a tidier candidate? Of course. But the untidy candidate is no threat to my liberty.

Don't get so focused on the rat that you ignore the rattlesnake. Trump may be a rat, but the Dems will bite to kill anything that startles them. Gotta deal with the snake FIRST.

---

I don't disagree, Dems are vicious in how they operate. They move as a block, they will use the Govt agencies and they play for keeps. Trump is a dream come true for them. He can't help himself. He can't shut up. He is sloppy. He thinks he is Teflon. I think he is starting to understand in his current Court Case, he can get hurt in this.

That is why I like DeSantis, he is not sloppy. Plays the Govt system as good as Dems. And can be just as vicious. That is what we need to compete with Dems. Unfortunately Trump won't go away and DeSantis has the charisma of a rock.

---

you like Desantis because he's more conventional. Problem is, conventional for many has come to mean -"within norms/standards demanded by Democrats." Voters are not looking for that. Just look at the polling. They are looking for someone to overturn the tables of the money-changers.

Res ipsa loquitur. What does it tell you when a guy like Trump is leading the certain Democrat nominee? What does it tell you when a guy so sloppy is now over 50% support in some polls?
Firstly, it tells you that the things important to you are not high on most other lists.
Secondly, it tells you that the dynamics at play go beyond candidates.
Thirdly, it tells you we are in uncharted waters.

None of the conventional stuff can be taken as conventional at this time. Yes, conventional things still matter, but you cant assume that they will be the heaviest weights on the scale. You cannot even conclude that any of the conventional stuff is still conventional, to include the assumption that a conviction will end Trump. I understand the reasoning behind such a conclusion. What I don't understand is how someone could look at the situation without wondering "well, maybe not."

---

You put more faith in polls than I do. Data is just as effective to create an outcome you want as it is to reveal.answers. I believe the polls are corralling us in a direction. Now, actuap primary wins occur, I will be coming around to your view. No votes have been cast and we are crowning a winner, that should set off warning bells.

---

That's a fair point, but too far down in the weeds to see what I'm talking about.

When you see "election fraud is a problem" numbers in double digits, it's a potential problem. When you see them above 40% you have a serious problem, if only one of perception. And when you have them in the 60's....you have a political system suffering from legitimacy issues which need urgent repair, real repair. That's a cancer. It will spread if not treated. And what is our government doing about that? Extending carrots? Investigating complaints? Nope. It's jailing people who did not even enter the capitol on J6. So instead of working that 60% number on election fraud down into more a safer range, we now see "dual standard of justice" polling well above 50%. A majority of the public believing not just that government doesn't represent them, but will be out to get them if they speak their mind. That's a symptom that the cancer is spreading. What's happening in Canada of course has no direct impact on us, but it does send a chilling message that the worst case scenarios we are conditioned to discount can, in fact, materialize. Forget about parsing the numbers to deciles or quartiles. Our pollsters should not be bothering to poll the question, because the issue is immaterial. That the are even asking such questions is telling us the issue is real. That the numbers are 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever matters, of course. but the real significance is that the issue exists at all. A healthy social contract, where everyone has faith that leaders and institutions are at least trying to pursue common good does not see the kind of dynamics we see today, much less see them as top-line issues.

A guy like Trump should not be able to crack 10%. That seems likely to be our next president, given status quo and likely trends, should make wise people think more deeply than they are.

Populism is ever-present. Usually has light-to-moderate impacts. Anytime you see it driving events, which it clearly is at this time, it is a sign of malfunctioning social contract. I think perhaps the biggest piece at this time is corruption of societal institutions. Dems own them all, at least at the top. That will be a far harder problem to fix than governmental structures. And yes, you can intuit from there that government structures are arguably not as important as they once were. Electeds are not really driving the agenda. Institutions are. Institutions which have taken sides in the partisan battles..... That is cancerous, too.....

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

FL said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

At the end of the day, Trump does not matter to me, but courts are big on precedent, and if the prosecutor can get Trump thrown into prison by blowing non-crimes into felonies, you had better understand that the average Schmoe has no chance when the government goes after him.

---

That has been the message to the American people since Trump's home got raided by the FBI.

' If you show up on our radar; you're next.'

---

Problem is how do you know it is fake.

---

Very simple.

Tell we which of these 'charges' brought on by the Biden administration, or other Dem operatives would have been filed on either Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama under the EXACT same circumstances.

Now you and every other intelligent individual already knows the answer.

Will any Dem partisan say it out loud; nope.

---

Now, would others bring charges? I don't know

---

Not a chance in the world these chargers would have been brought against a Democratic ex president by a current Democratic president.

Or for that matter by a Republican administration against a Republican ex president.

Never has happened in American history as it breaks the most cherished rule in American politics.

Be loyal to your friends and vicious to your enemies.

---

I agree, although I fail to see your point. Of course they protect their own. Been going on since the beginning of time. Ford pardoned Nixon and that was a literal breaking and entering.

By the way, the movie "Dick" was pretty good on that subject, watched with HS daughter. Sad thing was she didn't learn about Watergate in school at all. The movie got her through the ACT... But, I digress.

I wouldn't expect Dem vs Dem or GOP vs GOP. That is what is so bad about the Gaetz and Paul Ryan behavior.

Where I am disappointed is that Trump left himself so vulnerable.

---

Head scratcher statement.

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

---

There is a difference between taking advantage of a misstep.misstatement for the purposes of political debate, versus using prosecutorial power as recon by fire to contrive pretexts for full blown prosecutions. No one can withstand the latter. Literally, that was the logic of the Bill of Rights and due process protections.

the MAL affair for any other POTUS would have (and should have) been dealt with by civil litigation, which would have been fully capable of resolving the dispute. And such would have afforded the usual thrust & parry of rhetoric about whether Trump should/shouldn't have them....meant to take them or ended up their by accident...him being careless with classified or having a right to them, etc.....all for the purpose of swaying public opinion for the next election. But Dems no longer trust the ballot box. They doubt they can defeat him. So they have chosen to persecute via prosecution, to take him out pre-emptively. (only it's not working, so far). In so doing, they have revealed their inner fascist - disagree with them and they will destroy you. Would I prefer a tidier candidate? Of course. But the untidy candidate is no threat to my liberty.

Don't get so focused on the rat that you ignore the rattlesnake. Trump may be a rat, but the Dems will bite to kill anything that startles them. Gotta deal with the snake FIRST.

---

I don't disagree, Dems are vicious in how they operate. They move as a block, they will use the Govt agencies and they play for keeps. Trump is a dream come true for them. He can't help himself. He can't shut up. He is sloppy. He thinks he is Teflon. I think he is starting to understand in his current Court Case, he can get hurt in this.

That is why I like DeSantis, he is not sloppy. Plays the Govt system as good as Dems. And can be just as vicious. That is what we need to compete with Dems. Unfortunately Trump won't go away and DeSantis has the charisma of a rock.

---

you like Desantis because he's more conventional. Problem is, conventional for many has come to mean -"within norms/standards demanded by Democrats." Voters are not looking for that. Just look at the polling. They are looking for someone to overturn the tables of the money-changers.

Res ipsa loquitur. What does it tell you when a guy like Trump is leading the certain Democrat nominee? What does it tell you when a guy so sloppy is now over 50% support in some polls?
Firstly, it tells you that the things important to you are not high on most other lists.
Secondly, it tells you that the dynamics at play go beyond candidates.
Thirdly, it tells you we are in uncharted waters.

None of the conventional stuff can be taken as conventional at this time. Yes, conventional things still matter, but you cant assume that they will be the heaviest weights on the scale. You cannot even conclude that any of the conventional stuff is still conventional, to include the assumption that a conviction will end Trump. I understand the reasoning behind such a conclusion. What I don't understand is how someone could look at the situation without wondering "well, maybe not."

---

You put more faith in polls than I do. Data is just as effective to create an outcome you want as it is to reveal.answers. I believe the polls are corralling us in a direction. Now, actuap primary wins occur, I will be coming around to your view. No votes have been cast and we are crowning a winner, that should set off warning bells.

---

That's a fair point, but too far down in the weeds to see what I'm talking about.

When you see "election fraud is a problem" numbers in double digits, it's a potential problem. When you see them above 40% you have a serious problem, if only one of perception. And when you have them in the 60's....you have a political system suffering from legitimacy issues which need urgent repair, real repair. That's a cancer. It will spread if not treated. And what is our government doing about that? Extending carrots? Investigating complaints? Nope. It's jailing people who did not even enter the capitol on J6. So instead of working that 60% number on election fraud down into more a safer range, we now see "dual standard of justice" polling well above 50%. A majority of the public believing not just that government doesn't represent them, but will be out to get them if they speak their mind. That's a symptom that the cancer is spreading. What's happening in Canada of course has no direct impact on us, but it does send a chilling message that the worst case scenarios we are conditioned to discount can, in fact, materialize. Forget about parsing the numbers to deciles or quartiles. Our pollsters should not be bothering to poll the question, because the issue is immaterial. That the are even asking such questions is telling us the issue is real. That the numbers are 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever matters, of course. but the real significance is that the issue exists at all. A healthy social contract, where everyone has faith that leaders and institutions are at least trying to pursue common good does not see the kind of dynamics we see today, much less see them as top-line issues.

A guy like Trump should not be able to crack 10%. That seems likely to be our next president, given status quo and likely trends, should make wise people think more deeply than they are.

Populism is ever-present. Usually has light-to-moderate impacts. Anytime you see it driving events, which it clearly is at this time, it is a sign of malfunctioning social contract. I think perhaps the biggest piece at this time is corruption of societal institutions. Dems own them all, at least at the top. That will be a far harder problem to fix than governmental structures. And yes, you can intuit from there that government structures are arguably not as important as they once were. Electeds are not really driving the agenda. Institutions are. Institutions which have taken sides in the partisan battles..... That is cancerous, too.....

---

I respect your position. And I really want to discuss more when we get some Primary votes in. I want to see how it matches the polls. Or, are we being fed a path, a path that makes it easier for Dems. Most polls come from Academic institutions or media outlets. Neither known to be very trustworthy lately.

ABC BEAR said:

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Waco1947 said:

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ABC BEAR said:

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4th and Inches said:

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sombear said:

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4th and Inches said:

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sombear said:

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GrowlTowel said:

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Who is the victim that was defrauded?

---

According to NY, it was fraud the moment he falsified the applications.

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its an opinion of value.. its not fraud

---

In case anyone misinterpreted my post, I was not defending NY but rather, just summarizing the position NY is taking and that the state statute does not require a "victim."

---

understood

I think the hingepoint is that its not falsified if its an opinion of value..

---

A difference of opinion is on trial in all of the cases against Trump.

---

Hih? Said the Law of the Land

---

The Law of the Land is about as irrelevant as the Code of the West these days. We are in a period when every man does what is right in his own eyes.

---

No, I still get jury duty summons. Trump may be guilty.

Waco1947 said:

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ABC BEAR said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

ABC BEAR said:

---

4th and Inches said:

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sombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

Who is the victim that was defrauded?

---

According to NY, it was fraud the moment he falsified the applications.

---

its an opinion of value.. its not fraud

---

In case anyone misinterpreted my post, I was not defending NY but rather, just summarizing the position NY is taking and that the state statute does not require a "victim."

---

understood

I think the hingepoint is that its not falsified if its an opinion of value..

---

A difference of opinion is on trial in all of the cases against Trump.

---

Hih? Said the Law of the Land

---

The Law of the Land is about as irrelevant as the Code of the West these days. We are in a period when every man does what is right in his own eyes.

---

No, I still get jury duty summons. Trump may be guilty.

---

some honesty to your post.

Glad you recognized Trumps guilt isnt a foregone conclusion.

Waco1947 said:

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ABC BEAR said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

ABC BEAR said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

sombear said:

---

GrowlTowel said:

---

Who is the victim that was defrauded?

---

According to NY, it was fraud the moment he falsified the applications.

---

its an opinion of value.. its not fraud

---

In case anyone misinterpreted my post, I was not defending NY but rather, just summarizing the position NY is taking and that the state statute does not require a "victim."

---

understood

I think the hingepoint is that its not falsified if its an opinion of value..

---

A difference of opinion is on trial in all of the cases against Trump.

---

Hih? Said the Law of the Land

---

The Law of the Land is about as irrelevant as the Code of the West these days. We are in a period when every man does what is right in his own eyes.

---

No, I still get jury duty summons. Trump may be guilty.

---

Are you a Kangaroo?

FLBear5630 said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

---

There is a difference between taking advantage of a misstep.misstatement for the purposes of political debate, versus using prosecutorial power as recon by fire to contrive pretexts for full blown prosecutions. No one can withstand the latter. Literally, that was the logic of the Bill of Rights and due process protections.

the MAL affair for any other POTUS would have (and should have) been dealt with by civil litigation, which would have been fully capable of resolving the dispute. And such would have afforded the usual thrust & parry of rhetoric about whether Trump should/shouldn't have them....meant to take them or ended up their by accident...him being careless with classified or having a right to them, etc.....all for the purpose of swaying public opinion for the next election. But Dems no longer trust the ballot box. They doubt they can defeat him. So they have chosen to persecute via prosecution, to take him out pre-emptively. (only it's not working, so far). In so doing, they have revealed their inner fascist - disagree with them and they will destroy you. Would I prefer a tidier candidate? Of course. But the untidy candidate is no threat to my liberty.

Don't get so focused on the rat that you ignore the rattlesnake. Trump may be a rat, but the Dems will bite to kill anything that startles them. Gotta deal with the snake FIRST.

---

I don't disagree, Dems are vicious in how they operate. They move as a block, they will use the Govt agencies and they play for keeps. Trump is a dream come true for them. He can't help himself. He can't shut up. He is sloppy. He thinks he is Teflon. I think he is starting to understand in his current Court Case, he can get hurt in this.

That is why I like DeSantis, he is not sloppy. Plays the Govt system as good as Dems. And can be just as vicious. That is what we need to compete with Dems. Unfortunately Trump won't go away and DeSantis has the charisma of a rock.

---

you like Desantis because he's more conventional. Problem is, conventional for many has come to mean -"within norms/standards demanded by Democrats." Voters are not looking for that. Just look at the polling. They are looking for someone to overturn the tables of the money-changers.

Res ipsa loquitur. What does it tell you when a guy like Trump is leading the certain Democrat nominee? What does it tell you when a guy so sloppy is now over 50% support in some polls?
Firstly, it tells you that the things important to you are not high on most other lists.
Secondly, it tells you that the dynamics at play go beyond candidates.
Thirdly, it tells you we are in uncharted waters.

None of the conventional stuff can be taken as conventional at this time. Yes, conventional things still matter, but you cant assume that they will be the heaviest weights on the scale. You cannot even conclude that any of the conventional stuff is still conventional, to include the assumption that a conviction will end Trump. I understand the reasoning behind such a conclusion. What I don't understand is how someone could look at the situation without wondering "well, maybe not."

---

You put more faith in polls than I do. Data is just as effective to create an outcome you want as it is to reveal.answers. I believe the polls are corralling us in a direction. Now, actuap primary wins occur, I will be coming around to your view. No votes have been cast and we are crowning a winner, that should set off warning bells.

---

That's a fair point, but too far down in the weeds to see what I'm talking about.

When you see "election fraud is a problem" numbers in double digits, it's a potential problem. When you see them above 40% you have a serious problem, if only one of perception. And when you have them in the 60's....you have a political system suffering from legitimacy issues which need urgent repair, real repair. That's a cancer. It will spread if not treated. And what is our government doing about that? Extending carrots? Investigating complaints? Nope. It's jailing people who did not even enter the capitol on J6. So instead of working that 60% number on election fraud down into more a safer range, we now see "dual standard of justice" polling well above 50%. A majority of the public believing not just that government doesn't represent them, but will be out to get them if they speak their mind. That's a symptom that the cancer is spreading. What's happening in Canada of course has no direct impact on us, but it does send a chilling message that the worst case scenarios we are conditioned to discount can, in fact, materialize. Forget about parsing the numbers to deciles or quartiles. Our pollsters should not be bothering to poll the question, because the issue is immaterial. That the are even asking such questions is telling us the issue is real. That the numbers are 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever matters, of course. but the real significance is that the issue exists at all. A healthy social contract, where everyone has faith that leaders and institutions are at least trying to pursue common good does not see the kind of dynamics we see today, much less see them as top-line issues.

A guy like Trump should not be able to crack 10%. That seems likely to be our next president, given status quo and likely trends, should make wise people think more deeply than they are.

Populism is ever-present. Usually has light-to-moderate impacts. Anytime you see it driving events, which it clearly is at this time, it is a sign of malfunctioning social contract. I think perhaps the biggest piece at this time is corruption of societal institutions. Dems own them all, at least at the top. That will be a far harder problem to fix than governmental structures. And yes, you can intuit from there that government structures are arguably not as important as they once were. Electeds are not really driving the agenda. Institutions are. Institutions which have taken sides in the partisan battles..... That is cancerous, too.....

---

I respect your position. And I really want to discuss more when we get some Primary votes in. I want to see how it matches the polls. Or, are we being fed a path, a path that makes it easier for Dems. Most polls come from Academic institutions or media outlets. Neither known to be very trustworthy lately.

---

They can't fudge by single digit numbers, not 30-40-50 points. When they all, every one of them, show the magnitude of leads like Trump has......it is what it is, and single digit differences between them don't matter much.

Same for the small lead Trump has in general election polling. The polls, all of them, consistently showed Trump trailing Biden within the margin of error since the mid-terms. Today, most of the polls show that position has flipped, with a few showing it essentially tied (1 point one way or another). The take home lesson is not whether trump is even or up 4. It's the trend. The trend is clear. And it should get worse for Biden. My fear is that his numbers will get too bad, too soon, and he'll be see the writing on the wall and/or be convinced not to run. There's a precedent for that = Johnson.

This Israel attack is a game changer. Amcits are almost certainly among the dead.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

In a free society, no one should have to think that way.
EVERYONE is just as vulnerable as he is.
Look at Hillary's statement: Go along with Democrats. Or else.

---

The head scratcher is you bounce between "wink-wink" I know the real truth to idealistic wide eyes schoolboy "you mean they will do that"?

Cut the your enemies would take advantage of your misstep mode. He attacked the highest level of power, you think they were t looking for opportunities to take him down??

He said he could shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a vote. You do that **** and then don't cover your bases? That is plain stupid and you know it. You don't play at that level if you can't protect yourself. He can't, he does stupid acts and can't shut up. It is going to cost him Biden and Pelosi play this game much better, as you see with investigations turning up nothing. They are better crooks than Trump.

---

There is a difference between taking advantage of a misstep.misstatement for the purposes of political debate, versus using prosecutorial power as recon by fire to contrive pretexts for full blown prosecutions. No one can withstand the latter. Literally, that was the logic of the Bill of Rights and due process protections.

the MAL affair for any other POTUS would have (and should have) been dealt with by civil litigation, which would have been fully capable of resolving the dispute. And such would have afforded the usual thrust & parry of rhetoric about whether Trump should/shouldn't have them....meant to take them or ended up their by accident...him being careless with classified or having a right to them, etc.....all for the purpose of swaying public opinion for the next election. But Dems no longer trust the ballot box. They doubt they can defeat him. So they have chosen to persecute via prosecution, to take him out pre-emptively. (only it's not working, so far). In so doing, they have revealed their inner fascist - disagree with them and they will destroy you. Would I prefer a tidier candidate? Of course. But the untidy candidate is no threat to my liberty.

Don't get so focused on the rat that you ignore the rattlesnake. Trump may be a rat, but the Dems will bite to kill anything that startles them. Gotta deal with the snake FIRST.

---

I don't disagree, Dems are vicious in how they operate. They move as a block, they will use the Govt agencies and they play for keeps. Trump is a dream come true for them. He can't help himself. He can't shut up. He is sloppy. He thinks he is Teflon. I think he is starting to understand in his current Court Case, he can get hurt in this.

That is why I like DeSantis, he is not sloppy. Plays the Govt system as good as Dems. And can be just as vicious. That is what we need to compete with Dems. Unfortunately Trump won't go away and DeSantis has the charisma of a rock.

---

you like Desantis because he's more conventional. Problem is, conventional for many has come to mean -"within norms/standards demanded by Democrats." Voters are not looking for that. Just look at the polling. They are looking for someone to overturn the tables of the money-changers.

Res ipsa loquitur. What does it tell you when a guy like Trump is leading the certain Democrat nominee? What does it tell you when a guy so sloppy is now over 50% support in some polls?
Firstly, it tells you that the things important to you are not high on most other lists.
Secondly, it tells you that the dynamics at play go beyond candidates.
Thirdly, it tells you we are in uncharted waters.

None of the conventional stuff can be taken as conventional at this time. Yes, conventional things still matter, but you cant assume that they will be the heaviest weights on the scale. You cannot even conclude that any of the conventional stuff is still conventional, to include the assumption that a conviction will end Trump. I understand the reasoning behind such a conclusion. What I don't understand is how someone could look at the situation without wondering "well, maybe not."

---

You put more faith in polls than I do. Data is just as effective to create an outcome you want as it is to reveal.answers. I believe the polls are corralling us in a direction. Now, actuap primary wins occur, I will be coming around to your view. No votes have been cast and we are crowning a winner, that should set off warning bells.

---

That's a fair point, but too far down in the weeds to see what I'm talking about.

When you see "election fraud is a problem" numbers in double digits, it's a potential problem. When you see them above 40% you have a serious problem, if only one of perception. And when you have them in the 60's....you have a political system suffering from legitimacy issues which need urgent repair, real repair. That's a cancer. It will spread if not treated. And what is our government doing about that? Extending carrots? Investigating complaints? Nope. It's jailing people who did not even enter the capitol on J6. So instead of working that 60% number on election fraud down into more a safer range, we now see "dual standard of justice" polling well above 50%. A majority of the public believing not just that government doesn't represent them, but will be out to get them if they speak their mind. That's a symptom that the cancer is spreading. What's happening in Canada of course has no direct impact on us, but it does send a chilling message that the worst case scenarios we are conditioned to discount can, in fact, materialize. Forget about parsing the numbers to deciles or quartiles. Our pollsters should not be bothering to poll the question, because the issue is immaterial. That the are even asking such questions is telling us the issue is real. That the numbers are 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever matters, of course. but the real significance is that the issue exists at all. A healthy social contract, where everyone has faith that leaders and institutions are at least trying to pursue common good does not see the kind of dynamics we see today, much less see them as top-line issues.

A guy like Trump should not be able to crack 10%. That seems likely to be our next president, given status quo and likely trends, should make wise people think more deeply than they are.

Populism is ever-present. Usually has light-to-moderate impacts. Anytime you see it driving events, which it clearly is at this time, it is a sign of malfunctioning social contract. I think perhaps the biggest piece at this time is corruption of societal institutions. Dems own them all, at least at the top. That will be a far harder problem to fix than governmental structures. And yes, you can intuit from there that government structures are arguably not as important as they once were. Electeds are not really driving the agenda. Institutions are. Institutions which have taken sides in the partisan battles..... That is cancerous, too.....

---

I respect your position. And I really want to discuss more when we get some Primary votes in. I want to see how it matches the polls. Or, are we being fed a path, a path that makes it easier for Dems. Most polls come from Academic institutions or media outlets. Neither known to be very trustworthy lately.

---

They can't fudge by single digit numbers, not 30-40-50 points. When they all, every one of them, show the magnitude of leads like Trump has......it is what it is, and single digit differences between them don't matter much.

Same for the small lead Trump has in general election polling. The polls, all of them, consistently showed Trump trailing Biden within the margin of error since the mid-terms. Today, most of the polls show that position has flipped, with a few showing it essentially tied (1 point one way or another). The take home lesson is not whether trump is even or up 4. It's the trend. The trend is clear. And it should get worse for Biden. My fear is that his numbers will get too bad, too soon, and he'll be see the writing on the wall and/or be convinced not to run. There's a precedent for that = Johnson.

This Israel attack is a game changer. Amcits are almost certainly among the dead.

---

Oh yes. Israel changes everything. Can't convince me it isn't connected to Russia/Ukraine, N Korea/S Korea and China/Taiwan. In my uninformed mind, this is a move to get all of them by the time Biden leaves. All of these may be resolved unsatisfactorily in 6 months. I still think this is a Chinese plan, it smells of China strategy to create an asymmetrical war to accomplish their goals. This looks to me like stage 2, stage 1 being Ukraine. BRIC may even be Stage 2 and this is Stage 3.

[Contrary to the prosecution's claims that Donald Trump had somehow pulled a fast one on the banks, Haigh testified that they frequently gave "sizable haircuts" to the values that Trump's attorneys assigned to his properties. That's what Haigh referred to as "sanity checks." When Trump claimed his total worth was $4.3 billion, Deutsche Bank trimmed it down to $2.5 billion. (That's a rather hefty "trim," isn't it?) Of Trump's financial standing, Haigh testified that the "representations of the assets and liabilities were broadly accurate."

When estimating the value of undeveloped property that Trump was seeking a loan to develop, Deutsche Bank knocked 75% off of Trump's claim in one case. They similarly slashed Trump's claimed value of his golf courses in at least one instance. In the end, both parties agreed to the terms. The loans were made and they were repaid on schedule.

And that's the major point of the trial, isn't it? In order for Letitia James and her friends to claim that Donald Trump "committed years of fraud," then someone must have been defrauded. There would have to have been "victims." And Nicholas Haigh was a highly placed individual with one of the supposed victims. They made the amount of money they expected to make on the schedule they agreed to. They were "satisfied."

I'm not sure what the court thought they were going to accomplish by bringing this guy in to testify. It sounds like he did nothing more than describe business as usual in Manhattan. Or at least it was "usual" by the standards of people who travel in Donald Trump's financial circles. Most of the questions being raised deal with the estimated values of various properties. And in the business world, a thing is worth precisely as much as someone is willing to pay for it.]

https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2023/10/12/banker-we-had-sanity-checks-on-trumps-loans-n584216

Redbrickbear said:

---

[Contrary to the prosecution's claims that Donald Trump had somehow pulled a fast one on the banks, Haigh testified that they frequently gave "sizable haircuts" to the values that Trump's attorneys assigned to his properties. That's what Haigh referred to as "sanity checks." When Trump claimed his total worth was $4.3 billion, Deutsche Bank trimmed it down to $2.5 billion. (That's a rather hefty "trim," isn't it?) Of Trump's financial standing, Haigh testified that the "representations of the assets and liabilities were broadly accurate."

When estimating the value of undeveloped property that Trump was seeking a loan to develop, Deutsche Bank knocked 75% off of Trump's claim in one case. They similarly slashed Trump's claimed value of his golf courses in at least one instance. In the end, both parties agreed to the terms. The loans were made and they were repaid on schedule.

And that's the major point of the trial, isn't it? In order for Letitia James and her friends to claim that Donald Trump "committed years of fraud," then someone must have been defrauded. There would have to have been "victims." And Nicholas Haigh was a highly placed individual with one of the supposed victims. They made the amount of money they expected to make on the schedule they agreed to. They were "satisfied."

I'm not sure what the court thought they were going to accomplish by bringing this guy in to testify. It sounds like he did nothing more than describe business as usual in Manhattan. Or at least it was "usual" by the standards of people who travel in Donald Trump's financial circles. Most of the questions being raised deal with the estimated values of various properties. And in the business world, a thing is worth precisely as much as someone is willing to pay for it.]

https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2023/10/12/banker-we-had-sanity-checks-on-trumps-loans-n584216

---

I don't like this case at all, but this guy failed to do even the most basic research. The statute involved actually does not require this kind of victim. False application in itself is sufficient.

Redbrickbear said:

---

[Contrary to the prosecution's claims that Donald Trump had somehow pulled a fast one on the banks, Haigh testified that they frequently gave "sizable haircuts" to the values that Trump's attorneys assigned to his properties. That's what Haigh referred to as "sanity checks." When Trump claimed his total worth was $4.3 billion, Deutsche Bank trimmed it down to $2.5 billion. (That's a rather hefty "trim," isn't it?) Of Trump's financial standing, Haigh testified that the "representations of the assets and liabilities were broadly accurate."

When estimating the value of undeveloped property that Trump was seeking a loan to develop, Deutsche Bank knocked 75% off of Trump's claim in one case. They similarly slashed Trump's claimed value of his golf courses in at least one instance. In the end, both parties agreed to the terms. The loans were made and they were repaid on schedule.

And that's the major point of the trial, isn't it? In order for Letitia James and her friends to claim that Donald Trump "committed years of fraud," then someone must have been defrauded. There would have to have been "victims." And Nicholas Haigh was a highly placed individual with one of the supposed victims. They made the amount of money they expected to make on the schedule they agreed to. They were "satisfied."

I'm not sure what the court thought they were going to accomplish by bringing this guy in to testify. It sounds like he did nothing more than describe business as usual in Manhattan. Or at least it was "usual" by the standards of people who travel in Donald Trump's financial circles. Most of the questions being raised deal with the estimated values of various properties. And in the business world, a thing is worth precisely as much as someone is willing to pay for it.]

https://hotair.com/jazz-shaw/2023/10/12/banker-we-had-sanity-checks-on-trumps-loans-n584216

---

Prosecutors are playing on the differing concepts of values between what a property is theoretically worth (what I'd sell it for), what is its appraised value (what similar assets have sold for in recent past), and what is worth as collateral (should a bank have to seize and liquidate it).

I sell $1m worth of goods, today, October 17th, on 30 day terms to (insert blue-chip business entities here). I have $1m of Accounts Receivables on my balance sheet. No one will contest that. I sold good stuff to good people. I have every reason to expect to get paid. And at year end. I will even have to pay taxes on all that stuff I sold in December (but didn't get paid on), as well as anything from November of October for which checks are still in the mail.

But. If upon the 18th of October I go to my banker, is he going to give me a $1m loan using those receivables as collateral? Nope. Probably only going to get, at best, 750k (75%).

I could put up $1m in paid-in-full inventory as collateral. Stuff I purchased last month and are top selling items. Am I going to get a $1m loan on that? Nope. Probably only $500k. (50%)

I could put up my $1m, paid-in-full building as collateral. Am I going to get $1m for that? Nope. at best probably$800k (80%).

Prosecutor is playing a shell game with differing concepts of values. Trump asserts his estimated value; bank lowers it to collateral value....boom, that MUST be fraud.