BUDOS said:

---

I'm glad you respect a difference in opinion as you said earlier.

---

When you claimed the Democrats' version of J6 was "truth", I knew you had abandoned a simple disagreement.

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You and JR make quite the couple. Anything to spite Trump and the US if Trump is in office.

---

The fact you conflate criticism of Trump as criticism of the U.S. says the quiet part out loud about you.

This is why I disdain populism and those who get pulled under its spell.

---

The reason I attached the two, is how many people here promote Iran's version of things and disparage the war effort just because of the man in the White House.

The people who openly mock efforts to address the fraud and flood of illegals.

The people who pretend a refusal to urinate on the office of the President means you completely approve everything he says or does.

You want to see who has been 'pulled under [the] spell' of propaganda and smears, find a mirror.

** sigh **

See my post above yours. No reason to repeat it, but it still applies.

There were some bad things done by protesters. But far more abuse by the Biden Administration against innocents, and in no way was this riot an attempt at 'insurrection'.

That was always a lie, as were many of the bull**** charges levied against protestors.

And by the way, if you want examples of truly egregious lies, look no further than the Biden DOJ in how it handled those cases.

Check my past posts. Despite that it dictionary may classify the event an insurrection, I have been primarily using the term "January event."

Having read your past posts in our past posts, are you saying that in your opinion Trump did nothing wrong, immoral, unethical and/or illegal as it concerns the January 6 events, despite the live coverage of the event and the live testimony of the hearings?

BUDOS said:

---

Check my past posts. Despite that it dictionary may classify the event an insurrection, I have been primarily using the term "January event."

Having read your past posts in our past posts, are you saying that in your opinion Trump did nothing wrong, immoral, unethical and/or illegal as it concerns the January 6 events, despite the live coverage of the event and the live testimony of the hearings?

---

Please go back and read my posts.

I never said Trump has not lied, the problem here is the claim that he is as bad as claimed by his enemies, much less being the worst ever.

The J6 arguments are a sad but effective example of how polarized the hate has become. 2021 numbers estimated that over 25,000 people were part of the January 6 protests, possibly as many as 120,000.

Exclusive: Classified Documents Reveal the Number of January 6 Protestors - Newsweek

716 were claimed to have participated in the riots. That's 167 completely innocent people for every person who was guilty of even trespassing.

A Demographic and Legal Profile of January 6 Prosecutions - Seton Hall Law School

Despite a 99.4% conviction rate claimed by Biden's DOJ, there is evidence that the DOJ violated defendant rights in at least some cases.

Supreme Court says prosecutors improperly charged some Jan. 6 defendants : NPR

A key violation was long detention of defendants without a trial even assigned for months, which violates the 6th Amendment. Some were incarcerated for 2 years before their trial.

January 6 Prisoners: Denial of Justice and the Right to a Speedy Trial

DOJ: J6 Prisoners Locked Up 2 Years Without Trial Meets Definition of a Speedy Trial

The Biden Administration also added terrorism charges which were granted by judges without real evidence to support them; RCP noted that all of the cases were heard in Washington DC, where Harris claimed over 92% of the vote (illustrating a clear bias which may have affected rulings)

Nearly 4 Years Later, No Letup in Jan. 6 Prosecutions, Possible Pardons or Not | RealClearInvestigations

There is also evidence that the FBI had either agents or paid informants among the crowd, with video evidence that they may have incited violence.

Pardon the J6 Defendants | Opinion - Newsweek

In the American system, a criminal defendant is innocent unless and until proven guilty. But because some saw J6 as a way to go after Trump and his supporters, that standard was egregiously and deliberately violated by the Biden Administration.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BUDOS said:

---

Check my past posts. Despite that it dictionary may classify the event an insurrection, I have been primarily using the term "January event."

Having read your past posts in our past posts, are you saying that in your opinion Trump did nothing wrong, immoral, unethical and/or illegal as it concerns the January 6 events, despite the live coverage of the event and the live testimony of the hearings?

---

Please go back and read my posts.

I never said Trump has not lied, the problem here is the claim that he is as bad as claimed by his enemies, much less being the worst ever.

The J6 arguments are a sad but effective example of how polarized the hate has become. 2021 numbers estimated that over 25,000 people were part of the January 6 protests, possibly as many as 120,000.

Exclusive: Classified Documents Reveal the Number of January 6 Protestors - Newsweek

716 were claimed to have participated in the riots. That's 167 completely innocent people for every person who was guilty of even trespassing.

A Demographic and Legal Profile of January 6 Prosecutions - Seton Hall Law School

Despite a 99.4% conviction rate claimed by Biden's DOJ, there is evidence that the DOJ violated defendant rights in at least some cases.

Supreme Court says prosecutors improperly charged some Jan. 6 defendants : NPR

A key violation was long detention of defendants without a trial even assigned for months, which violates the 6th Amendment. Some were incarcerated for 2 years before their trial.

January 6 Prisoners: Denial of Justice and the Right to a Speedy Trial

DOJ: J6 Prisoners Locked Up 2 Years Without Trial Meets Definition of a Speedy Trial

The Biden Administration also added terrorism charges which were granted by judges without real evidence to support them; RCP noted that all of the cases were heard in Washington DC, where Harris claimed over 92% of the vote (illustrating a clear bias which may have affected rulings)

Nearly 4 Years Later, No Letup in Jan. 6 Prosecutions, Possible Pardons or Not | RealClearInvestigations

There is also evidence that the FBI had either agents or paid informants among the crowd, with video evidence that they may have incited violence.

Pardon the J6 Defendants | Opinion - Newsweek

In the American system, a criminal defendant is innocent unless and until proven guilty. But because some saw J6 as a way to go after Trump and his supporters, that standard was egregiously and deliberately violated by the Biden Administration.

---

Oldbear,
You present a very good argument and one with good documentation. I don't deny that some of the judges, which were appointed by both parties, may have assessed harsher penalties than either one of us may have, nor do I deny that some may have done little more than walk thru the building. I am with you on that.

Some were armed, some with guns, some with their homemade versions of weapons. It was not a peaceful transition of power led by a transitioning president as we had grown to expect--and one of the things that made us special as a nation.

I am asking for a more direct response to my last paragraph in my post:

"Having read your past posts in our past posts, are you saying that in your opinion Trump did nothing wrong, immoral, unethical and/or illegal as it concerns the January 6 events, despite the live coverage of the event and the live testimony of the hearings?

We all know the dude lies. It's one of his trademarks which will go down in history.

By the way, Buchanan, Johnson (Andrew) and Harding were at the bottom of presidents in my opinion; which are your top 3 or 4?

ron.reagan said:

---

I don't know if Trump or Biden is a bigger liar but if it was a contest it would be a third overtime victory.

---

This.

Nobody should be proud. And perhaps we should stop electing old men. Some of what Biden and Trump said is not lies-its delusion.

It is almost impossible to pass a Constitutional amendment anymore, but an amendment barring service after age 75 in the White House, the Senate, the House, or in any position requiring the consent of the Senate would have a chance.

Frank Galvin said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

I don't know if Trump or Biden is a bigger liar but if it was a contest it would be a third overtime victory.

---

This.

Nobody should be proud. And perhaps we should stop electing old men. Some of what Biden and Trump said is not lies-its delusion.

It is almost impossible to pass a Constitutional amendment anymore, but an amendment barring service after age 75 in the White House, the Senate, the House, or in any position requiring the consent of the Senate would have a chance.

---

Biden lie more about his biography than Trump has lied en total. Not even close.

BUDOS: "I am asking for a more direct response to my last paragraph in my post:

"Having read your past posts in our past posts, are you saying that in your opinion Trump did nothing wrong, immoral, unethical and/or illegal as it concerns the January 6 events, despite the live coverage of the event and the live testimony of the hearings?

We all know the dude lies. It's one of his trademarks which will go down in history."

I see I need to expand on my last post, about the 2020 Election and the J6 events. In fact, I need to go further back as well.

There has not been a really amicable Presidential election since Bob Dole made a half-assed effort in 1996 in his loss to Bill Clinton. Ever since, the losing candidate has basically thrown a tantrum to some degree and tried to trash the winner. Al Gore in 2000 and Hillary Clinton in 2016 are notable bad losers who went out of their way to try to change the outcome, especially Clinton attempting to sway electors to ignore the voters in their state and put Hillary in as President. My point is that Trump in 2020 was following the example of a number of unhappy losers in other elections. I could even go back and talk about really nasty elections for the White House, especially 1800, 1824, and 1876. The events after the 2020 election, including the J6 riots, do not come close to amounting to insurrection or a genuine attempt to overthrow the government. That garbage is just propaganda by Democrats who wanted voters to ignore a lot of strange behavior around the election on their part.

I am not going to dig far into whether the Democrats stole the 2020 election. Nothing said now is going to change the outcome of that election, which for all practical purposes was decided once each state's Secretary of State (or equivalent) certified the election in that state. The legal matter does not, however, invalidate reasonable concerns about the election process or make it right to ignore unethical behavior.

RCP, while right-leaning, raised legitimate questions about the times polls closed in different places, how votes were counted, who counted them, whether mail-in ballots met standards required by state law, and other concerns, ironically sometimes brought up first by Clinton after her 2016 loss.

New Peer-Reviewed Research Finds Evidence of 2020 Voter Fraud | RealClearPolitics

7 Things We've Learned About the 2020 Elections | RealClearPolitics

In February of 2021, TIME magazine boasted that media companies, led by Facebook's Zuckerberg, cooperated with corporate leaders just after the election to deny investigation of Trump's claims that the election was rigged.

The Secret Bipartisan Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election

A December 2020 poll by Rutgers University found that about one in three Americans did not trust the election result.

One-Third of Americans Distrust Election Result, National Survey Finds | Rutgers University

Put these pieces together, and it's no surprise that by January of 2021 there were a lot of Americans angry that the election did not seem to have been handled properly. The protest on January 6 should have been seen coming by many who just ignored it instead.

Trump certainly played a role in raising those tensions, but so did Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats, as well as the media which plainly preferred Biden in how election news was reported. And if I agree that Nancy Pelosi did not anticipate the need for the National Guard, then it's also reasonable to believe that Trump expected different behavior than what happened. There is zero reason to believe Trump intended to break the law, nor in fact did so. The rest is emotional noise.


BUDOS: "By the way, Buchanan, Johnson (Andrew) and Harding were at the bottom of presidents in my opinion; which are your top 3 or 4?"

I mentioned in another thread that I follow the traditional rule of not grading a President until he has been out of office for 20 years, which eliminates Trump, Biden, Obama and George W. Bush from consideration at this time but spoiler alert, if I was to include them none would be in my top 3 or 4 Presidents. I also exclude William Henry Harrison from consideration, because 31 days in office is not nearly enough to consider him having been able to do anything. I exclude Garfield as well because 199 days is not really long enough, either.

So cutting to the chase, at last. My top 3 at this time would be

1. George Washington - set the example and the standard. No one has yet found any reason not to count him as the top.

2. James Polk - greatly expanded the territory of the United States and promoted the Manifest Destiny theory. This changed the US from a regional power in the continent to dominance in North America.

3. Ronald Reagan - restored the US confidence in economic and military terms, effectively won the Cold War.

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

I don't know if Trump or Biden is a bigger liar but if it was a contest it would be a third overtime victory.

---

This.

Nobody should be proud. And perhaps we should stop electing old men. Some of what Biden and Trump said is not lies-its delusion.

It is almost impossible to pass a Constitutional amendment anymore, but an amendment barring service after age 75 in the White House, the Senate, the House, or in any position requiring the consent of the Senate would have a chance.

---

Biden lie more about his biography than Trump has lied en total. Not even close.

---

Tells me you are a partisan hack without saying you are a partisan hack. Go worship your golden calf.

---

Harrison is on the mark. You seem to just be stamping your petulant feet.

Not sure why anyone would be defending Joe "Big Guy" Biden.

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You and JR make quite the couple. Anything to spite Trump and the US if Trump is in office.

---

The fact you conflate criticism of Trump as criticism of the U.S. says the quiet part out loud about you.

This is why I disdain populism and those who get pulled under its spell.

---

The reason I attached the two, is how many people here promote Iran's version of things and disparage the war effort just because of the man in the White House.

The people who openly mock efforts to address the fraud and flood of illegals.

The people who pretend a refusal to urinate on the office of the President means you completely approve everything he says or does.

You want to see who has been 'pulled under [the] spell' of propaganda and smears, find a mirror.

---

Bringing up matters not discussed or germane to the topic isn't going to deflect from your blind patriotism toward Trump.

But since you brought up Iran, what is the administration's version of things?

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

ATL Bear said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

You and JR make quite the couple. Anything to spite Trump and the US if Trump is in office.

---

The fact you conflate criticism of Trump as criticism of the U.S. says the quiet part out loud about you.

This is why I disdain populism and those who get pulled under its spell.

---

The reason I attached the two, is how many people here promote Iran's version of things and disparage the war effort just because of the man in the White House.

The people who openly mock efforts to address the fraud and flood of illegals.

The people who pretend a refusal to urinate on the office of the President means you completely approve everything he says or does.

You want to see who has been 'pulled under [the] spell' of propaganda and smears, find a mirror.

---

Bringing up matters not discussed or germane to the topic isn't going to deflect from your blind patriotism toward Trump.

But since you brought up Iran, what is the administration's version of things?

---

Refusing to join a mindless mob does not make me, or anyone, guilty of blindness.

And Iran is a very different topic already covered in its own thread.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BUDOS: "I am asking for a more direct response to my last paragraph in my post:

"Having read your past posts in our past posts, are you saying that in your opinion Trump did nothing wrong, immoral, unethical and/or illegal as it concerns the January 6 events, despite the live coverage of the event and the live testimony of the hearings?

We all know the dude lies. It's one of his trademarks which will go down in history."

I see I need to expand on my last post, about the 2020 Election and the J6 events. In fact, I need to go further back as well.

There has not been a really amicable Presidential election since Bob Dole made a half-assed effort in 1996 in his loss to Bill Clinton. Ever since, the losing candidate has basically thrown a tantrum to some degree and tried to trash the winner. Al Gore in 2000 and Hillary Clinton in 2016 are notable bad losers who went out of their way to try to change the outcome, especially Clinton attempting to sway electors to ignore the voters in their state and put Hillary in as President. My point is that Trump in 2020 was following the example of a number of unhappy losers in other elections. I could even go back and talk about really nasty elections for the White House, especially 1800, 1824, and 1876. The events after the 2020 election, including the J6 riots, do not come close to amounting to insurrection or a genuine attempt to overthrow the government. That garbage is just propaganda by Democrats who wanted voters to ignore a lot of strange behavior around the election on their part.

I am not going to dig far into whether the Democrats stole the 2020 election. Nothing said now is going to change the outcome of that election, which for all practical purposes was decided once each state's Secretary of State (or equivalent) certified the election in that state. The legal matter does not, however, invalidate reasonable concerns about the election process or make it right to ignore unethical behavior.

RCP, while right-leaning, raised legitimate questions about the times polls closed in different places, how votes were counted, who counted them, whether mail-in ballots met standards required by state law, and other concerns, ironically sometimes brought up first by Clinton after her 2016 loss.

New Peer-Reviewed Research Finds Evidence of 2020 Voter Fraud | RealClearPolitics

7 Things We've Learned About the 2020 Elections | RealClearPolitics

In February of 2021, TIME magazine boasted that media companies, led by Facebook's Zuckerberg, cooperated with corporate leaders just after the election to deny investigation of Trump's claims that the election was rigged.

The Secret Bipartisan Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election

A December 2020 poll by Rutgers University found that about one in three Americans did not trust the election result.

One-Third of Americans Distrust Election Result, National Survey Finds | Rutgers University

Put these pieces together, and it's no surprise that by January of 2021 there were a lot of Americans angry that the election did not seem to have been handled properly. The protest on January 6 should have been seen coming by many who just ignored it instead.

Trump certainly played a role in raising those tensions, but so did Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats, as well as the media which plainly preferred Biden in how election news was reported. And if I agree that Nancy Pelosi did not anticipate the need for the National Guard, then it's also reasonable to believe that Trump expected different behavior than what happened. There is zero reason to believe Trump intended to break the law, nor in fact did so. The rest is emotional noise.


BUDOS: "By the way, Buchanan, Johnson (Andrew) and Harding were at the bottom of presidents in my opinion; which are your top 3 or 4?"

I mentioned in another thread that I follow the traditional rule of not grading a President until he has been out of office for 20 years, which eliminates Trump, Biden, Obama and George W. Bush from consideration at this time but spoiler alert, if I was to include them none would be in my top 3 or 4 Presidents. I also exclude William Henry Harrison from consideration, because 31 days in office is not nearly enough to consider him having been able to do anything. I exclude Garfield as well because 199 days is not really long enough, either.

So cutting to the chase, at last. My top 3 at this time would be

1. George Washington - set the example and the standard. No one has yet found any reason not to count him as the top.

2. James Polk - greatly expanded the territory of the United States and promoted the Manifest Destiny theory. This changed the US from a regional power in the continent to dominance in North America.

3. Ronald Reagan - restored the US confidence in economic and military terms, effectively won the Cold War.

---

Oldbear,
Ok, either you are you, in my opinion, going to continue deflect and not give me a straight answer, or you have convinced yourself that you have.

If you personally

• sat in front of the TV on that January 6th and watched different cable news channels
• watched on live TV our own party members had to say about that event and Trump
• watched the hearings and live testimony of his own staff members
• read the speeches given that morning
• read the testimonies of his people

and you honestly believe what you say you do, then I don't really think you will ever change your belief.

I have done those things, and have my interpretations and beliefs, based on my personal observations, and you pretty much know what they are. However, based on the information you have supplied, I have a better understanding of some of the pieces, and for that, thanks. (Not that I enjoyed reading some of them, but that is part of the journey.)

Therefore, it appears it's time we both move on to other subjects. Hopefully there will be occasions, where we are more in agreement.

You have certainly made your opinion known.

But I am curious: I told you my top 3 Presidents, who would be yours?

That's hard for me , as I tend to get caught up in what occurred under a presidency, the context of those events and my bias as it regards their character.
Therefore, I am going to stretch my top three.

First would be Lincoln/Washington
Second Roosevelt/Roosevelt
Third Reagan

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

I don't know if Trump or Biden is a bigger liar but if it was a contest it would be a third overtime victory.

---

This.

Nobody should be proud. And perhaps we should stop electing old men. Some of what Biden and Trump said is not lies-its delusion.

It is almost impossible to pass a Constitutional amendment anymore, but an amendment barring service after age 75 in the White House, the Senate, the House, or in any position requiring the consent of the Senate would have a chance.

---

Biden lie more about his biography than Trump has lied en total. Not even close.

---

Tells me you are a partisan hack without saying you are a partisan hack. Go worship your golden calf.

---

Tell me you're not intelligent enough to refute facts without saying you're a ****ing ******. Go worship your golden calf.

(Do you think it is odd you radical LWNJ morons are not smart enough to realize you're all too stupid to discuss facts?)

Oldbear83 said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

I don't know if Trump or Biden is a bigger liar but if it was a contest it would be a third overtime victory.

---

This.

Nobody should be proud. And perhaps we should stop electing old men. Some of what Biden and Trump said is not lies-its delusion.

It is almost impossible to pass a Constitutional amendment anymore, but an amendment barring service after age 75 in the White House, the Senate, the House, or in any position requiring the consent of the Senate would have a chance.

---

Biden lie more about his biography than Trump has lied en total. Not even close.

---

Tells me you are a partisan hack without saying you are a partisan hack. Go worship your golden calf.

---

Harrison is on the mark. You seem to just be stamping your petulant feet.

Not sure why anyone would be defending Joe "Big Guy" Biden.

---

******, please! That's as lovingly as I could say it.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

I don't know if Trump or Biden is a bigger liar but if it was a contest it would be a third overtime victory.

---

This.

Nobody should be proud. And perhaps we should stop electing old men. Some of what Biden and Trump said is not lies-its delusion.

It is almost impossible to pass a Constitutional amendment anymore, but an amendment barring service after age 75 in the White House, the Senate, the House, or in any position requiring the consent of the Senate would have a chance.

---

Biden lie more about his biography than Trump has lied en total. Not even close.

---

Tells me you are a partisan hack without saying you are a partisan hack. Go worship your golden calf.

---

Tell me you're not intelligent enough to refute facts without saying you're a ****ing ******. Go worship your golden calf.

(Do you think it is odd you radical LWNJ morons are not smart enough to realize you're all too stupid to discuss facts?)

---

Those are insults, not facts or arguments. But I will indulge.

Donald Trump makes it a point to tell one specific lie daily, usually in multiple varieties. That American elections are rigged. the only eviodence that he has is that he lost one, but that is proof positive for him and his cult followers. By hammering this theme relentlessly he has done more damage to American civic life than all of Joe Biden's wishful thinking blunders combined times a million. That is why his lies matter more.

That is not to say Trump doesn't lie about himself. His whole life has been a con. He was never close to a self-made man; he likely got into Penn based on cheating and didn't graduate anywhere near first as he claimed, he claimed to be some sort of baseball star for hitting .200 in a rinky dink private school league, he ran fraudulent charities and businesses, he never released his tax returns like he said he would, he likely lied about the Epstein birthday message, ... the list is endless.

The reason I said you are a hack is becuase you can't accept the idea that both men and both parties are guilty when they obvioulsy are. It is always about protecting the current crooked fool in office regardless of facts or logic.

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

ron.reagan said:

---

I don't know if Trump or Biden is a bigger liar but if it was a contest it would be a third overtime victory.

---

This.

Nobody should be proud. And perhaps we should stop electing old men. Some of what Biden and Trump said is not lies-its delusion.

It is almost impossible to pass a Constitutional amendment anymore, but an amendment barring service after age 75 in the White House, the Senate, the House, or in any position requiring the consent of the Senate would have a chance.

---

Biden lie more about his biography than Trump has lied en total. Not even close.

---

Tells me you are a partisan hack without saying you are a partisan hack. Go worship your golden calf.

---

Tell me you're not intelligent enough to refute facts without saying you're a ****ing ******. Go worship your golden calf.

(Do you think it is odd you radical LWNJ morons are not smart enough to realize you're all too stupid to discuss facts?)

---

Those are insults, not facts or arguments. But I will indulge.

Donald Trump makes it a point to tell one specific lie daily, usually in multiple varieties. That American elections are rigged. the only eviodence that he has is that he lost one, but that is proof positive for him and his cult followers. By hammering this theme relentlessly he has done more damage to American civic life than all of Joe Biden's wishful thinking blunders combined times a million. That is why his lies matter more.

That is not to say Trump doesn't lie about himself. His whole life has been a con. He was never close to a self-made man; he likely got into Penn based on cheating and didn't graduate anywhere near first as he claimed, he claimed to be some sort of baseball star for hitting .200 in a rinky dink private school league, he ran fraudulent charities and businesses, he never released his tax returns like he said he would, he likely lied about the Epstein birthday message, ... the list is endless.

The reason I said you are a hack is becuase you can't accept the idea that both men and both parties are guilty when they obvioulsy are. It is always about protecting the current crooked fool in office regardless of facts or logic.

---

So are you implying that you would prefer a third party?
If so, what issues would you prefer be included in its platform?