D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Yes it is but that's between doctor and patient.

---

Woman @ 40th week of pregnancy: "Doc, I'm too stressed to have a baby. I want to abort it."
Doc: "OK"

That's a valid "medical reason" in all 50 states.

Waco - This is my last post on this thread. You are talking in circles trying to justify your position. It's not working with anyone here. No one here is changing their mind due to your posts.

My last two points and them I'm out ...

• An intrinsic evil should never be tolerated even under the veil of alleged rights.
• I will continue to pray for you.

Peace.

---

So? I ain't evil. The doctor and woman have that right. You don't. You may abhor but we are Americans and it's her right. Declaring it's her right does not make me evil but constitutional. There's a difference.

---

Substitute slavery for abortion and you can make the same argument.

Why are you so reticent to answer a question so basic to the discussion of this matter?

Do you believe the state should have an interest in the welfare of a 30-week-old human offspring?
Yes or no?

(Note, since you don't want "babies" or "Jesus" in the question, there's no talk of "babies" or "Jesus" in this question).

---

No, the state should not have an interest in the welfare of the 30 week. It's a violation of her human rights and her moral tight to seek the welfare her own health.

I don't care if you babies or Jesus in a question. As long as you acknowledge that in your thinking an embryo or zygote is what YOU call a baby.
If you use Jesus to judge in any way then you better be willing to have that judgment turned on your own reproductive rights.

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Yes it is but that's between doctor and patient.

---

Woman @ 40th week of pregnancy: "Doc, I'm too stressed to have a baby. I want to abort it."
Doc: "OK"

That's a valid "medical reason" in all 50 states.

Waco - This is my last post on this thread. You are talking in circles trying to justify your position. It's not working with anyone here. No one here is changing their mind due to your posts.

My last two points and them I'm out ...

• An intrinsic evil should never be tolerated even under the veil of alleged rights.
• I will continue to pray for you.

Peace.

---

So? I ain't evil. The doctor and woman have that right. You don't. You may abhor but we are Americans and it's her right. Declaring it's her right does not make me evil but constitutional. There's a difference.

---

Substitute slavery for abortion and you can make the same argument.

Why are you so reticent to answer a question so basic to the discussion of this matter?

Do you believe the state should have an interest in the welfare of a 30-week-old human offspring?
Yes or no?

(Note, since you don't want "babies" or "Jesus" in the question, there's no talk of "babies" or "Jesus" in this question).

---

No, the state should not have an interest in the welfare of the 30 week. It's a violation of her human rights and her moral tight to seek the welfare her own health.

I don't care if you babies or Jesus in a question. As long as you acknowledge that in your thinking an embryo or zygote is what YOU call a baby.
If you use Jesus to judge in any way then you better be willing to have that judgment turned on your own reproductive rights.

---

If you don't care if baby or Jesus are in a question, you shouldn't say you didn't answer questions because they had baby and Jesus in them.

Now, your statement is that the state should have no interest in the welfare of a 30-week-old unborn human offspring is interesting. Thank you for finally answering it. What about 31 weeks?

DC said "If you don't care if baby or Jesus are in a question, you shouldn't say you didn't answer questions because they had baby and Jesus in them."
I don't remember saying or if I said what the context.
There are medical, moral, state, theological issues here. It's not binary. It's a mix.

The answer is the same until birth but that's a complete guess on my part because I don't know the law or the medicine.
But the underlying principle remains the same.

Waco1947 said:

---

DC said "If you don't care if baby or Jesus are in a question, you shouldn't say you didn't answer questions because they had baby and Jesus in them."
I don't remember saying or if I said what the context.
There are medical, moral, state, theological issues here. It's not binary. It's a mix.

---

Here's what you said in the context of your refusal to answer certain questions. (My question, which you finally decided to answer, didn't include "babies" or "Jesus.") It was just a few posts ago.

"You're right I don't answer questions because the questions are predicated on a false premise. Why chase a false accusation via a 'question' down a rabbit hole.
Usually the question go like this "You believe in killing babies what about what Jesus says?"
It's a stupid question. The premise is wrong. 1) they aren't babies but embryos 2) it's a woman decision It's states a belief that I don't believe."

Waco1947 said:

---

The answer is the same until birth but that's a complete guess on my part because I don't know the law or the medicine.
But the underlying principle remains the same.

---

If you don't know the law, one wonders where you get the idea you're qualified to lecture everyone else about how you're being "constitutional."

Your assertion is that the state should have no interest in the welfare of an unborn human offspring is at odds with current law, which you admit to not knowing.

He doesn't know the law but is more than willing to give constitutional advice. It's very similar to how the "preacher" preaches.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

The answer is the same until birth but that's a complete guess on my part because I don't know the law or the medicine.
But the underlying principle remains the same.

---

If you don't know the law, one wonders where you get the idea you're qualified to lecture everyone else about how you're being "constitutional."

Your assertion is that the state should have no interest in the welfare of an unborn human offspring is at odds with current law, which you admit to not knowing.

---

I'm not "lecturing" anyone. It's my opinion of a fundamental human right - a wonan's Right to her own sexual health decisions. The state may have an "interest in the unborn off Spring" but having an interest and having the right to intervene against the woman's decision are separate notions. How am I "at odds with current law." I don't know the law but I know a fundamental human right when I see one.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

The answer is the same until birth but that's a complete guess on my part because I don't know the law or the medicine.
But the underlying principle remains the same.

---

If you don't know the law, one wonders where you get the idea you're qualified to lecture everyone else about how you're being "constitutional."

Your assertion is that the state should have no interest in the welfare of an unborn human offspring is at odds with current law, which you admit to not knowing.

---

I'm not "lecturing" anyone. It's my opinion of a fundamental human right - a wonan's Right to her own sexual health decisions. The state may have an "interest in the unborn off Spring" but having an interest and having the right to intervene against the woman's decision are separate notions. How am I "at odds with current law." I don't know the law but I know a fundamental human right when I see one.

---

The state claims an interest you assert they should not have and is none of their business, so your views are at odds with current law. When a state has an interest, that is, by definition, the right to intervene.

You say you know a fundamental human right when you see one, but you don't know a human being when you see one.

---

you are right of course. I am at odds with current law. But I was arguing a principle of human rights. I admitted I was unsure of the law and the medical.

Legal - abortions are legal
Human rights - a woman's body belongs to her not the state.
Theology. - God made woman in God's image too. Her Body is her body' hence no rape, no assault no manipulation
Men - because it's her body neither you or men or women or the state can make a decision for her.
You may disagree but it's bedrock principle.
Attack those principles not women, not me, not pro choice supporters.
Attack principles not people's humanity or personhood.
I am not pro abortion
But in binary world that makes no sense to those who have only two choices in life.
In complex world it does make sense.

Waco1947 said:

---

Legal - abortions are legal
Human rights - a woman's body belongs to her not the state.
Theology. - God made woman in God's image too. Her Body is her body' hence no rape, no assault no manipulation
Men - because it's her body neither you or men or women or the state can make a decision for her.
You may disagree but it's bedrock principle.
Attack those principles not women, not me, not pro choice supporters.
Attack principles not people's humanity or personhood.
I am not pro abortion
But in binary world that makes no sense to those who have only two choices in life.
In complex world it does make sense.

---

Not all abortions are legal, and, of course, legality is changeable.
"Human rights" do not include the right to kill another human being, hence no killing them.
God made unborn human offspring in God's image as much as men or women. Hence, no killing them.
The unborn human offspring is not property, but person.
Arguing that abortion is a human right makes you pro abortion if you are pro human rights.
Killing an unborn offspring or not killing an unborn human offspring is a binary choice.
It is not overly complex.
You aren't offering "bedrock principle," you're offering bull**** principle.

1st Cor 6:19 says our bodies are not ours.

I'm guessing this is another portion of the Bible you don't believe.

It says we were bought at a price

You've said before Christ death was an example of love and was not propitiation.

I'm guessing I'm just spinning my wheels here

Yep bedrock. I notice all you offer is cussing.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Legal - abortions are legal
Human rights - a woman's body belongs to her not the state.
Theology. - God made woman in God's image too. Her Body is her body' hence no rape, no assault no manipulation
Men - because it's her body neither you or men or women or the state can make a decision for her.
You may disagree but it's bedrock principle.
Attack those principles not women, not me, not pro choice supporters.
Attack principles not people's humanity or personhood.
I am not pro abortion
But in binary world that makes no sense to those who have only two choices in life.
In complex world it does make sense.

---

Not all abortions are legal, and, of course, legality is changeable.
"Human rights" do not include the right to kill another human being, hence no killing them.
God made unborn human offspring in God's image as much as men or women. Hence, no killing them.
The unborn human offspring is not property, but person.
Arguing that abortion is a human right makes you pro abortion if you are pro human rights.
Killing an unborn offspring or not killing an unborn human offspring is a binary choice.
It is not overly complex.
You aren't offering "bedrock principle," you're offering bull**** principle.

---

I am not answering your stuff. It's all misdirection as to what I actually said. I never said "abortion is a human right." Show me the damn quote you liar. Don't offer your twisted logic. The bedrock principle is each human being including has a right to their own body decisions. Now stop making stuff up liar I am tired of answering made up crap.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

1st Cor 6:19 says our bodies are not ours. ((((((Of course our body's belongs to God that why you can't touch without the the others permission. You defile God's own-self. I you just deepened my case thank you . ))))))

I'm guessing this is another portion of the Bible you don't believe.

It says we were bought at a price

You've said before Christ death was an example of love and was not propitiation.

I'm guessing I'm just spinning my wheels here

---

I Corinthians 6 taken out of context. The rest of is straw man. I know you hate it but it is
1) Bought at price is the cross true spiritually but not applicable here.
2). Yep Jesus is love and love means we always ask permission before touching
3). With your line of reasoning yeah you're spinning your wheels.

Waco1947 said:

---

Yep bedrock. I notice all you offer is cussing.

---

All? I suppose you failed to read the rest of my post.

When you dismiss the most vulnerable human beings as mere property, you have lost any ground to stand on with a "human rights" argument.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Legal - abortions are legal
Human rights - a woman's body belongs to her not the state.
Theology. - God made woman in God's image too. Her Body is her body' hence no rape, no assault no manipulation
Men - because it's her body neither you or men or women or the state can make a decision for her.
You may disagree but it's bedrock principle.
Attack those principles not women, not me, not pro choice supporters.
Attack principles not people's humanity or personhood.
I am not pro abortion
But in binary world that makes no sense to those who have only two choices in life.
In complex world it does make sense.

---

Not all abortions are legal, and, of course, legality is changeable.
"Human rights" do not include the right to kill another human being, hence no killing them.
God made unborn human offspring in God's image as much as men or women. Hence, no killing them.
The unborn human offspring is not property, but person.
Arguing that abortion is a human right makes you pro abortion if you are pro human rights.
Killing an unborn offspring or not killing an unborn human offspring is a binary choice.
It is not overly complex.
You aren't offering "bedrock principle," you're offering bull**** principle.

---

I am not answering your stuff. It's all misdirection as to what I actually said. I never said "abortion is a human right." Show me the damn quote you liar. Don't offer your twisted logic. The bedrock principle is each human being including has a right to their own body decisions. Now stop making stuff up liar I am tired of answering made up crap.

---

When you say that a woman's body belongs to her as a human right, but you include the killing her unborn offspring as a part of that right, as you do, you are arguing that abortion is a human right, because abortion is the killing of an unborn human offspring.

You aren't answering because you can't.

---

. I am deeply disturbed and regretful that a woman would abort especially late term. But I am not a woman so she has a unique conpacity to birth life. But I know it is HER decision (with spiritual and medical counsel) but it is HER decision with enough emotional, moral, medical, financial relational (there is a father and family) complexity to HER that I'm not going to judge her or stop her or pass laws stopping Her. It's between her and God.Dhe will suffer the consequences- good or bad not you therefore it's none of your business. You've made plenty of stupid immoral decisions and I'll give you my opinion and spiritual guidance but it's your decision and you'll suffer through the consequences - good or bad but the consequences will be yours, not mine. It is the responsibility of being human and free will.

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Legal - abortions are legal
Human rights - a woman's body belongs to her not the state.
Theology. - God made woman in God's image too. Her Body is her body' hence no rape, no assault no manipulation
Men - because it's her body neither you or men or women or the state can make a decision for her.
You may disagree but it's bedrock principle.
Attack those principles not women, not me, not pro choice supporters.
Attack principles not people's humanity or personhood.
I am not pro abortion
But in binary world that makes no sense to those who have only two choices in life.
In complex world it does make sense.

---

Not all abortions are legal, and, of course, legality is changeable.
"Human rights" do not include the right to kill another human being, hence no killing them.
God made unborn human offspring in God's image as much as men or women. Hence, no killing them.
The unborn human offspring is not property, but person.
Arguing that abortion is a human right makes you pro abortion if you are pro human rights.
Killing an unborn offspring or not killing an unborn human offspring is a binary choice.
It is not overly complex.
You aren't offering "bedrock principle," you're offering bull**** principle.

---

I am not answering your stuff. It's all misdirection as to what I actually said. I never said "abortion is a human right." Show me the damn quote you liar. Don't offer your twisted logic. The bedrock principle is each human being including has a right to their own body decisions. Now stop making stuff up liar I am tired of answering made up crap.

---

When you say that a woman's body belongs to her as a human right, but you include the killing her unborn offspring as a part of that right, as you do, you are arguing that abortion is a human right, because abortion is the killing of an unborn human offspring.

You aren't answering because you can't.

---

. I am deeply disturbed and regretful that a woman would abort especially late term. But I am not a woman so she has a unique conpacity to birth life. But I know it is HER decision (with spiritual and medical counsel) but it is HER decision with enough emotional, moral, medical, financial relational (there is a father and family) complexity to HER that I'm not going to judge her or stop her or pass laws stopping Her. It's between her and God.Dhe will suffer the consequences- good or bad not you therefore it's none of your business. You've made plenty of stupid immoral decisions and I'll give you my opinion and spiritual guidance but it's your decision and you'll suffer through the consequences - good or bad but the consequences will be yours, not mine. It is the responsibility of being human and free will.

---

None of the excuses you offer above for supporting the right of a mother to kill her unborn offspring change the fact that you view the right for a woman to kill her unborn offspring as a human right.

Quick question for everyone who has posted in this thread.

How long after you were conceived did your biological mother stop thinking of you as a fetus?

canoso said:

---

Quick question for everyone who has posted in this thread.

How long after you were conceived did your biological mother stop thinking of you as a fetus?

---

Mine never thought of me as a "fetus"

She always just said she was going to have a child is what she told me

I'm glad she thought I was a human being from the time she found she was pregnant and didn't kill me

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Legal - abortions are legal
Human rights - a woman's body belongs to her not the state.
Theology. - God made woman in God's image too. Her Body is her body' hence no rape, no assault no manipulation
Men - because it's her body neither you or men or women or the state can make a decision for her.
You may disagree but it's bedrock principle.
Attack those principles not women, not me, not pro choice supporters.
Attack principles not people's humanity or personhood.
I am not pro abortion
But in binary world that makes no sense to those who have only two choices in life.
In complex world it does make sense.

---

Not all abortions are legal, and, of course, legality is changeable.
"Human rights" do not include the right to kill another human being, hence no killing them.
God made unborn human offspring in God's image as much as men or women. Hence, no killing them.
The unborn human offspring is not property, but person.
Arguing that abortion is a human right makes you pro abortion if you are pro human rights.
Killing an unborn offspring or not killing an unborn human offspring is a binary choice.
It is not overly complex.
You aren't offering "bedrock principle," you're offering bull**** principle.

---

I am not answering your stuff. It's all misdirection as to what I actually said. I never said "abortion is a human right." Show me the damn quote you liar. Don't offer your twisted logic. The bedrock principle is each human being including has a right to their own body decisions. Now stop making stuff up liar I am tired of answering made up crap.

---

When you say that a woman's body belongs to her as a human right, but you include the killing her unborn offspring as a part of that right, as you do, you are arguing that abortion is a human right, because abortion is the killing of an unborn human offspring.

You aren't answering because you can't.

---

. I am deeply disturbed and regretful that a woman would abort especially late term. But I am not a woman so she has a unique conpacity to birth life. But I know it is HER decision (with spiritual and medical counsel) but it is HER decision with enough emotional, moral, medical, financial relational (there is a father and family) complexity to HER that I'm not going to judge her or stop her or pass laws stopping Her. It's between her and God.Dhe will suffer the consequences- good or bad not you therefore it's none of your business. You've made plenty of stupid immoral decisions and I'll give you my opinion and spiritual guidance but it's your decision and you'll suffer through the consequences - good or bad but the consequences will be yours, not mine. It is the responsibility of being human and free will.

---

This is a wonderful day! The pastor who has admitted he has empathy for the sinner and not for the sinless, has admitted "She will suffer the consequences".

Some may be upset that a pastor would not try to prevent one of his sheep from having to face consequences and I fully understand that. But, where you may see this as baby steps, no pun intended, I see this as a HUGE step - an epiphany of sorts. Keep moving forward 47. I think we have something to celebrate.

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Legal - abortions are legal
Human rights - a woman's body belongs to her not the state.
Theology. - God made woman in God's image too. Her Body is her body' hence no rape, no assault no manipulation
Men - because it's her body neither you or men or women or the state can make a decision for her.
You may disagree but it's bedrock principle.
Attack those principles not women, not me, not pro choice supporters.
Attack principles not people's humanity or personhood.
I am not pro abortion
But in binary world that makes no sense to those who have only two choices in life.
In complex world it does make sense.

---

Not all abortions are legal, and, of course, legality is changeable.
"Human rights" do not include the right to kill another human being, hence no killing them.
God made unborn human offspring in God's image as much as men or women. Hence, no killing them.
The unborn human offspring is not property, but person.
Arguing that abortion is a human right makes you pro abortion if you are pro human rights.
Killing an unborn offspring or not killing an unborn human offspring is a binary choice.
It is not overly complex.
You aren't offering "bedrock principle," you're offering bull**** principle.

---

I am not answering your stuff. It's all misdirection as to what I actually said. I never said "abortion is a human right." Show me the damn quote you liar. Don't offer your twisted logic. The bedrock principle is each human being including has a right to their own body decisions. Now stop making stuff up liar I am tired of answering made up crap.

---

When you say that a woman's body belongs to her as a human right, but you include the killing her unborn offspring as a part of that right, as you do, you are arguing that abortion is a human right, because abortion is the killing of an unborn human offspring.

You aren't answering because you can't.

---

. I am deeply disturbed.

---

Acid is a turrible drug. The 60's weren't very good to you, huh?