What this board continually gets wrong.

1,451 Views | 17 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Buddha Bear
Doc Holliday
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Is helping the poorest among us a moral and religious mission?

Sure...that's called charity.

But what is not moral is stealing money from others to give to somebody else on behalf the government who is essentially pointing a gun at your head or willing to throw you in prison for not doing so.

The middle class has shrunken dramatically, wages haven't kept up with inflation, the rich keep getting richer and the gap keeps widening.

None of that is true.

Let's use 1979 as an example.
The upper middle class was about 12% of the population in 1979. By 2014 it was 30% of the American population. The disappearance of the middle class that people talk about is actually the middle class becoming upper middle class. The standard of living for everyone in the U.S. has risen dramatically since 1979.

Wage stagnation and hourly wages since 1979 adjusted for inflation? The "wage stagnation" doesn't take into account additional benefits which is 30%-40% on top of salary, the different way we count households, it also doesn't take into account that you can get more stuff for the same inflation adjusted dollar than you could in 1979.

You have a much nicer fridge now than you did in 1979 and it costs you basically half of what it would have cost in 1979 in inflation adjusted dollars. You're getting twice as much stuff for the same buck now, you're basically twice as rich as you would be in 1979.

What about increased home prices today?

A few things about this.
Homes in the US have radically increased in size/technology.
People are rushing into heavily populated cities.

The increase in home prices is really because of this massive urbanization that has happened into cities that are heavily zoned. There is an incredible shortage of houses as a result.

You're not seeing the same kind of shortages in places that don't have the same sort of zoning regulations...such as Dallas. You're seeing it in places like Seattle, SF, New York, LA...where it's difficult to build and where the government has mandated that you also build affordable housing, tax you heavily, new regulations.

Yes it is the governments fault.

The wealth gap?

The greater disparity between the top tax and bottom is true. But the bottom is dramatically richer than it used to be.

Reasons why College costs so much?

Government subsidies is what is creating upward increase in prices.
When you give a bunch of people subsidies to go to college, what you are doing is creating additional demand without additional supply. That creates upward pricing pressure: it's a simple supply/demand curve.

If you think dumping a bunch of money into free college education is somehow supposed to alleviate all of the economic woes of a society that is already absorbing the cost of a bunch of college graduates who can't get jobs because they majored in silly things...that's bewildering.

Scandinavian socialist countries?

This have become one of the favorite tools of the left in favor of socialism.

You are picking countries that have built their entire wealth based on capitalism and then have placed on top of those countries some wealth redistributing systems and called those countries socialist.

That's not a socialist country.

A socialist country is a country that uses abolishing of profit, nationalization of property and public ownership of the means of production as a tool of wealth production and distribution.

This is NOT what happens in these countries.

Even the prime minister of Denmark back in 2015, when Bernie Sanders kept claiming Denmark was socialist, went to Harvard to explain that they were not a socialist country...instead a capitalist country.

Public roads are an example of socialism?

No.

Public roads and public goods, generally, are non rivalrous and non excludable.
Everyone has access to a road and anyone can use it and I can't exclude you from using that road. In the same way that the military is non rivalrous and non excludable...it's the definition of a public good.

That's NOT the same things as alienation of my labor.

The question really is your rights: when it comes to sex you have a right to consent or not to consent, when it comes to labor you have the right to consent or not to consent...and you voting to remove my right to consent or not to, does not alienate the right, it just means you're violating it.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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Maybe a little off topic, but I think it is almost criminal how even middle/ middle upper class people are asking strangers for money these days. The explosion of GoFundMe pages by embattled politicians and celebrities has gotten out of hand. (Blasey-Ford, Michael Cohen, and Stormy Daniels come to mind). I see this as just a form of high tech panhandling. It is a shame that more people truly in need that don't have an internet connection or know where their next meal is coming from can't be helped.

I saw just today that Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island has raised $197k for her health and financial problems.
Doc Holliday
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Maybe a little off topic, but I think it is almost criminal how even middle/ middle upper class people are asking strangers for money. The explosion of GoFundMe pages by embattled politicians and celebrities has gotten out of hand. I see this as just a form of high tech panhandling. It is a shame that more people truly in need that don't have an internet connection or know where their next meal is coming from can't be helped.

I saw just today that Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island has raised $197k for her health and financial problems.
100% agree. I like the term 'High tech panhandling'.
In the old days it was called the Clinton Foundation lol.

Today it's not just GoFundMe. It's book deals, Netflix deals, paid speeches, board positions, no show teaching jobs, university jobs.
HuMcK
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Maybe a little off topic, but I think it is almost criminal how even middle/ middle upper class people are asking strangers for money these days. The explosion of GoFundMe pages by embattled politicians and celebrities has gotten out of hand. (Blasey-Ford, Michael Cohen, and Stormy Daniels come to mind). I see this as just a form of high tech panhandling. It is a shame that more people truly in need that don't have an internet connection or know where their next meal is coming from can't be helped.

I saw just today that Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island has raised $197k for her health and financial problems.

Imagine if we didn't have a medical system that generated so many high costs and bankruptcies. I've read that 1 in 3 GoFundMe accounts are set up to deal with medical bills, and pre-ACA 62% of all bankruptcies were for medical expenses.
Doc Holliday
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HuMcK said:

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Maybe a little off topic, but I think it is almost criminal how even middle/ middle upper class people are asking strangers for money these days. The explosion of GoFundMe pages by embattled politicians and celebrities has gotten out of hand. (Blasey-Ford, Michael Cohen, and Stormy Daniels come to mind). I see this as just a form of high tech panhandling. It is a shame that more people truly in need that don't have an internet connection or know where their next meal is coming from can't be helped.

I saw just today that Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island has raised $197k for her health and financial problems.

Imagine if we didn't have a medical system that generated so many high costs and bankruptcies. I've read that 1 in 3 GoFundMe accounts are set up to deal with medical bills, and pre-ACA 62% of all bankruptcies were for medical expenses.
Current -ACA: The big problem that nobody is really talking about is the pre-existing conditions clause. If the insurance companies are forced to take in people they know will cost millions of dollars, of course the premiums have to go Sky High as well as the deductibles. If healthy people are able to opt out, of course this will never work. It's like letting people have car insurance after an accident or homeowners insurance after a house fire. Obviously the whole system falls apart and healthy people are forced to participate because they are basically subsidizing the sick people.

Of course without the pre-existing conditions clause, there's virtually no point to even having health insurance anyway. You could get sick, lose your job, lose your insurance and be uncoverable.

The real problem is that Health Care is not a single random event it is an inevitable ongoing event, and the insurance model of business does not really work with Healthcare. Until we realize that and accept it, this is always going to be a nightmare with no solution.

And until we all realize that politicians are making BANK off of creating this problem...nothing will be done.
Gunny Hartman
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Yes Obamacare was wonderful for the healthcare market. Drove up costs and reduced coverage. Outstanding work there Democrats.
Johnny Bear
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Gunny Hartman said:

Yes Obamacare was wonderful for the healthcare market. Drove up costs and reduced coverage. Outstanding work there Democrats.
And thank you again John McCain (may you rest in peace) for doing your part to insure we would remain cursed with it.
Gunny Hartman
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I don't have an ounce of RIP in my heart for McStain. He betrayed the American people by not voting to repeal that heinous law.
Doc Holliday
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Gunny Hartman said:

I don't have an ounce of RIP in my heart for McStain. He betrayed the American people by not voting to repeal that heinous law.
Yep. He's done far worse things than just that I might add.
J.R.
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Johnny Bear said:

Gunny Hartman said:

Yes Obamacare was wonderful for the healthcare market. Drove up costs and reduced coverage. Outstanding work there Democrats.
And thank you again John McCain (may you rest in peace) for doing your part to insure we would remain cursed with it.
McCain did the right thing, LJ.. Trumps had no replacement plan.
twd74
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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

Maybe a little off topic, but I think it is almost criminal how even middle/ middle upper class people are asking strangers for money these days. The explosion of GoFundMe pages by embattled politicians and celebrities has gotten out of hand. (Blasey-Ford, Michael Cohen, and Stormy Daniels come to mind). I see this as just a form of high tech panhandling. It is a shame that more people truly in need that don't have an internet connection or know where their next meal is coming from can't be helped.

I saw just today that Mary Ann from Gilligan's Island has raised $197k for her health and financial problems.
Much of that may well come from folks that think she is still stuck on the Island....
GrowlTowel
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J.R. said:

Johnny Bear said:

Gunny Hartman said:

Yes Obamacare was wonderful for the healthcare market. Drove up costs and reduced coverage. Outstanding work there Democrats.
And thank you again John McCain (may you rest in peace) for doing your part to insure we would remain cursed with it.
McCain did the right thing, LJ.. Trumps had no replacement plan.


No plan? No plan is better than Obamacare. "Doing something" for the sake of doing something is always worse.
Your ideas are intriguing to me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Buddha Bear
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Gunny Hartman said:

Yes Obamacare was wonderful for the healthcare market. Drove up costs and reduced coverage. Outstanding work there Democrats.
If only we could go back to 2007 when the healthcare system was perfect.
Buddha Bear
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Quote:

Reasons why College costs so much?

Government subsidies is what is creating upward increase in prices.
When you give a bunch of people subsidies to go to college, what you are doing is creating additional demand without additional supply. That creates upward pricing pressure: it's a simple supply/demand curve.

Government subsidies shifted. Cutting college funding from state budgets caused tuition increases throughout the 80's. That shifted the burden of payment from government to the average citizen. As more people had trouble paying for demand for access increased. Then came more grants, and much more student loans, provided as short term fixes. Then the cash grab began in the late 90's. Bush doubled loan amount availability of loans in 2002. I wouldn't have graduated that year without that happening. Unfortunately universities again took full advantage again, and maxed out tuition with loan availability.

It wasn't subsidies that was the problem. We were fine with subsidies before the 80's. Universities couldn't compete with the government when they held the purse. Universities pillaged when burden shifted to the individual. We should've never changed the system pre-1980's. I wonder who led the way on that one.
contrario
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Buddha Bear said:

Quote:

Reasons why College costs so much?

Government subsidies is what is creating upward increase in prices.
When you give a bunch of people subsidies to go to college, what you are doing is creating additional demand without additional supply. That creates upward pricing pressure: it's a simple supply/demand curve.

Government subsidies shifted. Cutting college funding from state budgets caused tuition increases throughout the 80's. That shifted the burden of payment from government to the average citizen. As more people had trouble paying for demand for access increased. Then came more grants, and much more student loans, provided as short term fixes. Then the cash grab began in the late 90's. Bush doubled loan amount availability of loans in 2002. I wouldn't have graduated that year without that happening. Unfortunately universities again took full advantage again, and maxed out tuition with loan availability.

It wasn't subsidies that was the problem. We were fine with subsidies before the 80's. Universities couldn't compete with the government when they held the purse. Universities pillaged when burden shifted to the individual. We should've never changed the system pre-1980's. I wonder who led the way on that one.
Both parties led the way on that one. Both sides want college to be available to more people, and opening up lending was a vehicle to achieve that. The same could be said for home ownership. Both sides tout historic levels of home ownership, especially for certain demographics. But when people are given easy money, they don't always think about the long term consequences and responsibilities of that debt. By your tone, I feel like you are trying to make this a problem the right created, or at least exasperated, but that is an ignorance of that facts if that's what you are implying.
Buddha Bear
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contrario said:

Buddha Bear said:

Quote:

Reasons why College costs so much?

Government subsidies is what is creating upward increase in prices.
When you give a bunch of people subsidies to go to college, what you are doing is creating additional demand without additional supply. That creates upward pricing pressure: it's a simple supply/demand curve.

Government subsidies shifted. Cutting college funding from state budgets caused tuition increases throughout the 80's. That shifted the burden of payment from government to the average citizen. As more people had trouble paying for demand for access increased. Then came more grants, and much more student loans, provided as short term fixes. Then the cash grab began in the late 90's. Bush doubled loan amount availability of loans in 2002. I wouldn't have graduated that year without that happening. Unfortunately universities again took full advantage again, and maxed out tuition with loan availability.

It wasn't subsidies that was the problem. We were fine with subsidies before the 80's. Universities couldn't compete with the government when they held the purse. Universities pillaged when burden shifted to the individual. We should've never changed the system pre-1980's. I wonder who led the way on that one.
Both parties led the way on that one. Both sides want college to be available to more people, and opening up lending was a vehicle to achieve that. The same could be said for home ownership. Both sides tout historic levels of home ownership, especially for certain demographics. But when people are given easy money, they don't always think about the long term consequences and responsibilities of that debt. By your tone, I feel like you are trying to make this a problem the right created, or at least exasperated, but that is an ignorance of that facts if that's what you are implying.
I agree with most of your post.

Right began cutting the funding. The left and the right exacerbated the problem by adding to grants and loans, likely with good intentions. I'm a center left guy. Both parties are guilty of this one. But conservatives ultimately don't want government funding of education. For profit education is a mistake. And in our culture, education is a right. In this instance, America was better off with the old system. Make America great again?
Gunny Hartman
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Buddha Bear said:

Gunny Hartman said:

Yes Obamacare was wonderful for the healthcare market. Drove up costs and reduced coverage. Outstanding work there Democrats.
If only we could go back to 2007 when the healthcare system was perfect.

Prior to the passage of Obamacare, I had a health insurance plan that I liked and wanted to keep, and I was reassured by somebody important (I can't remember who) that I'd be able to. Within 30 days of its passage, I got a letter from my insurance company informing me that my policy didn't meet the requirements of the new law and that it was being canceled immediately. Every year since then, my rates have gone up and my coverage has gone down.

Now that's change you can believe in.
contrario
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Buddha Bear said:

contrario said:

Buddha Bear said:

Quote:

Reasons why College costs so much?

Government subsidies is what is creating upward increase in prices.
When you give a bunch of people subsidies to go to college, what you are doing is creating additional demand without additional supply. That creates upward pricing pressure: it's a simple supply/demand curve.

Government subsidies shifted. Cutting college funding from state budgets caused tuition increases throughout the 80's. That shifted the burden of payment from government to the average citizen. As more people had trouble paying for demand for access increased. Then came more grants, and much more student loans, provided as short term fixes. Then the cash grab began in the late 90's. Bush doubled loan amount availability of loans in 2002. I wouldn't have graduated that year without that happening. Unfortunately universities again took full advantage again, and maxed out tuition with loan availability.

It wasn't subsidies that was the problem. We were fine with subsidies before the 80's. Universities couldn't compete with the government when they held the purse. Universities pillaged when burden shifted to the individual. We should've never changed the system pre-1980's. I wonder who led the way on that one.
Both parties led the way on that one. Both sides want college to be available to more people, and opening up lending was a vehicle to achieve that. The same could be said for home ownership. Both sides tout historic levels of home ownership, especially for certain demographics. But when people are given easy money, they don't always think about the long term consequences and responsibilities of that debt. By your tone, I feel like you are trying to make this a problem the right created, or at least exasperated, but that is an ignorance of that facts if that's what you are implying.
I agree with most of your post.

Right began cutting the funding. The left and the right exacerbated the problem by adding to grants and loans, likely with good intentions. I'm a center left guy. Both parties are guilty of this one. But conservatives ultimately don't want government funding of education. For profit education is a mistake. And in our culture, education is a right. In this instance, America was better off with the old system. Make America great again?
I don't want to derail your point too much, but your point is part of a bigger problem with spending and why we will never fix our spending problem. Everything is viewed as a right and we just don't have enough money to fund all of these rights. And raising taxes in the near term would solve that problem, but it would have long term economic consequences and we would be worse off. As a country, we need to accept that even as the most economic prosperous country on earth, we still have a ceiling, especially when it comes to how much we can tax the productive members in our society. Regardless of tax policy, we will only have so much tax revenue over the long term and we must spend within those means. Does that mean cutting funding to education is the answer? Probably not, but we need to cut funding somewhere and as long as we have people that view everything as a birth-right and "untouchable" when it comes to cost reduction, we will never get out of this mess.
Buddha Bear
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contrario said:

Buddha Bear said:

contrario said:

Buddha Bear said:

Quote:

Reasons why College costs so much?

Government subsidies is what is creating upward increase in prices.
When you give a bunch of people subsidies to go to college, what you are doing is creating additional demand without additional supply. That creates upward pricing pressure: it's a simple supply/demand curve.

Government subsidies shifted. Cutting college funding from state budgets caused tuition increases throughout the 80's. That shifted the burden of payment from government to the average citizen. As more people had trouble paying for demand for access increased. Then came more grants, and much more student loans, provided as short term fixes. Then the cash grab began in the late 90's. Bush doubled loan amount availability of loans in 2002. I wouldn't have graduated that year without that happening. Unfortunately universities again took full advantage again, and maxed out tuition with loan availability.

It wasn't subsidies that was the problem. We were fine with subsidies before the 80's. Universities couldn't compete with the government when they held the purse. Universities pillaged when burden shifted to the individual. We should've never changed the system pre-1980's. I wonder who led the way on that one.
Both parties led the way on that one. Both sides want college to be available to more people, and opening up lending was a vehicle to achieve that. The same could be said for home ownership. Both sides tout historic levels of home ownership, especially for certain demographics. But when people are given easy money, they don't always think about the long term consequences and responsibilities of that debt. By your tone, I feel like you are trying to make this a problem the right created, or at least exasperated, but that is an ignorance of that facts if that's what you are implying.
I agree with most of your post.

Right began cutting the funding. The left and the right exacerbated the problem by adding to grants and loans, likely with good intentions. I'm a center left guy. Both parties are guilty of this one. But conservatives ultimately don't want government funding of education. For profit education is a mistake. And in our culture, education is a right. In this instance, America was better off with the old system. Make America great again?
I don't want to derail your point too much, but your point is part of a bigger problem with spending and why we will never fix our spending problem. Everything is viewed as a right and we just don't have enough money to fund all of these rights. And raising taxes in the near term would solve that problem, but it would have long term economic consequences and we would be worse off. As a country, we need to accept that even as the most economic prosperous country on earth, we still have a ceiling, especially when it comes to how much we can tax the productive members in our society. Regardless of tax policy, we will only have so much tax revenue over the long term and we must spend within those means. Does that mean cutting funding to education is the answer? Probably not, but we need to cut funding somewhere and as long as we have people that view everything as a birth-right and "untouchable" when it comes to cost reduction, we will never get out of this mess.
Well said.
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