I'm sure Jesus is proud

https://www.chron.com/life/article/lakewood-church-joel-osteen-john-gray-lamborghini-13464093.php

Former Lakewood Church pastor John Gray gifts wife $200,000 Lamborghini
The gift was an eight-year anniversary present. (Photo: Michael Ciaglo / Houston Chronicle)

At Lakewood Church, pastor Joel Osteen proclaims, "It's God's will for you to live in prosperity instead of poverty." Osteen, who lives in a $10.5 million mansion in River Oaks, practices what he preaches. Apparently. so does his former associate pastor, John Gray.
While the traditional theme for an eight-year wedding anniversary present is pottery, on Sunday, Gray took it to a whole new level, gifting his wife, Aventer Gray, a $200,000 Lamborghini Urus.
The lavish sports utility vehicle travels zero-to-62-mph in 3.6 seconds and reaches a top speed of nearly 190 mph.
"You light my fire, let this Lamborghini light your fire, baby," he says in a Facebook video posted by Prove Magazine/Dear Black Men Network.
Gray's grand gesture has left many shaking their heads, upset that a preacher would indulge in such opulence.

But the current head pastor at Greenville's Redemption Church, who has his multiple sources of income including a show on OWN, plus other television projects, books and endorsements, stands by his decision.
"God helped me to make my wife's dream come true. Why not? She's made mine come true!" he said via Instagram on Tuesday.
Standing up for her husband, and for her right to own the luxe sports car, Aventer expressed her opinion on Instagram on Sunday.
"I don't see anyone screaming about how basketball players drive what they do while you paying $$$ to see them play in arenas and on fields. We don't live for people! We live for God!" she remarked.
Criticism of the spending habits of wealthy pastors is not a new topic for pastor Gray.
"I understand why and how people get there, but I think they should be very cautious to understand that if the individuals that are serving are honorable and committed to serving," he said in a December 2017 interview with The Greenville News.

"If they've saved their money and want to do something nice for their spouse or they want to live in a home ... you've got one life."
After all, happy wife, happy life.
Pastor Gray could not be reached for comment Thursday.

I reckon that camel/ eye of the needle thingy in the Bible is just an allegory.

contrario said:

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If he was using church money to buy it, that would be an issue. But he is using money he makes from other sources. What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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It is an issue.

Osodecentx said:

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contrario said:

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If he was using church money to buy it, that would be an issue. But he is using money he makes from other sources. What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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It is an issue.

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What is the issue? Is he not allowed to have other sources of income?

I'm not bothered by this. If I were to take him at his word, this is money he earned not church funds.

It's not a car for me.

Osodecentx said:

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contrario said:

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If he was using church money to buy it, that would be an issue. But he is using money he makes from other sources. What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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It is an issue.

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Agreed. It's an ugly car.

At least this isn't the Minister of Missions at FBC Houston.

I cannot judge the condition of his soul, but I can state that I think his actions tell a lot about the likely condition of his soul. Making Mammon your god is a terrible thing. Mammon will have no mercy on you in the end.

OsoCoreyell said:

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I cannot judge the condition of his soul, but I can state that I think his actions tell a lot about the likely condition of his soul. Making Mammon your god is a terrible thing. Mammon will have no mercy on you in the end.

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This would be my only concern, you can't have two masters. I've seen it too many times. Once the affluence bug hits people nothing is good enough. There is always that next level up.

Just the car itself, isn't bad, but the Bible tells to be satisfied with what we have, with our life. Lot's of folks just aren't. Having to constantly be getting more and more fine stuff is just a symptom for some people.

We see this all the time. It's like people that preach global warming and then fly in private jets and have mansions that use more energy than some small towns. It is what it is.

contrario said:

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What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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Are you kidding? It is a Christian's goal to live as Christ like as possible, right? Let alone for a pastor who dedicated his life to service of other's, indulging in consumer goods like this instead of relationships with others is as hypocritical as it gets. The term, "Convenient Christianity" comes to mind.

Unless of course you think Jesus would be driving a Lambo if he walked the earth today?



Edit: I can't figure out how to host an image apparently. Supposed to be a Family Guy depiction of Jesus in a sports car.

Prairie_Bear said:

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contrario said:

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What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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Are you kidding? It is a Christian's goal to live as Christ like as possible, right? Let along for a pastor who dedicated his life to service of other's, indulging in consumer goods like this instead of relationships with others is as hypocritical as it gets. The term, "Convenient Christianity" comes to mind.

Unless of course you think Jesus would be driving a Lambo if he walked the earth today?

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He'd be worried that his sandal strap would get caught on the accelerator.

Prairie_Bear said:

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contrario said:

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What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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Are you kidding? It is a Christian's goal to live as Christ like as possible, right? Let along for a pastor who dedicated his life to service of other's, indulging in consumer goods like this instead of relationships with others is as hypocritical as it gets. The term, "Convenient Christianity" comes to mind.

Unless of course you think Jesus would be driving a Lambo if he walked the earth today?

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The ONLY passage I think applies here is as follows:

Romans 14:13-23

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food [or a car...], destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.[or drives...] 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[a]

Prairie_Bear said:

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contrario said:

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What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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Are you kidding? It is a Christian's goal to live as Christ like as possible, right? Let alone for a pastor who dedicated his life to service of other's, indulging in consumer goods like this instead of relationships with others is as hypocritical as it gets. The term, "Convenient Christianity" comes to mind.

Unless of course you think Jesus would be driving a Lambo if he walked the earth today?



Edit: I can't figure out how to host an image apparently. Supposed to be a Family Guy depiction of Jesus in a sports car.

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This guy is just like the rest of these money grubbing prosperity preachers who lead large personality based ministries. Most if not all of their outside money flows from their so called vocation as gospel preachers. I've always wondered why men and women with this type of "hussle" aren't ever called to serve poor under served communities that can't sustain their lavish lifestyles.

Charlatan. Paula White gave her "father in ministry", TD Jakes a Bentley for his birthday.

These are well paying hussles, pure and simple.

robby44 said:

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tommie said:

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I'm not bothered by this. If I were to take him at his word, this is money he earned not church funds.

It's not a car for me.

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Ol girl must be putting in a lot of work
Slapped it up, flipped it and rubbed it down

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Or she caught him getting some strange

Osodecentx said:

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robby44 said:

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tommie said:

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I'm not bothered by this. If I were to take him at his word, this is money he earned not church funds.

It's not a car for me.

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Ol girl must be putting in a lot of work
Slapped it up, flipped it and rubbed it down

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Or she caught him getting some strange

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Or they are nouveau riche and they got caught up in what you can do with the money they probably didn't grow up with. Thing is, I don't think any of us know these people or can read their minds. Sometimes a car is just a car.

Also, if he earned the money from work other than his salary and not from donations to himself (like book sales, etc) then it's really not your business or mine what he does with his money.

OsoCoreyell said:

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I cannot judge the condition of his soul, but I can state that I think his actions tell a lot about the likely condition of his soul. Making Mammon your god is a terrible thing. Mammon will have no mercy on you in the end.

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So you are suggesting that every person working in the factory manufacturing the car should be fired and the factory shut down? What would be an acceptable product for them to manufacture and for people to purchase that you wouldn't consider 'Mammon'?

In your judgement (and that's what it is) what car would it have been ok for him to buy his wife with money he earned from outside activities? A ford? Is that 'Mammon'? Or could he go all the way up to a BMW or maybe a Mercedes? Would it be less Mammony if it was a used Mammon? What if he got a 6 cylinder Mammon with a visible dent? Is that ok? If the Mammon he bought was environmentally friendly, say an Electric Mammon or at least a hybrid Mammon, would that make it better?

What kind of Mammon do you drive? Or is it not Mammon because it's what YOU drive and not what other people drive?

PS. Envy and covetousness are sins too. Just sayin'


EDIT: This whole argument reminds me of a conversation had in John Pisciotta's (spelling?) economics class at Baylor. In a debate over his apparently favorite book "Clashing worlds of economics and faith" - which is not a very thoughtful or rational read - he essentially made the mammon argument over Mercedes. I asked him why he thought all those people making the car should be fired. He did little more than stutter and stumble over a stupid response.

Prairie_Bear said:

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contrario said:

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What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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Are you kidding? It is a Christian's goal to live as Christ like as possible, right? Let alone for a pastor who dedicated his life to service of other's, indulging in consumer goods like this instead of relationships with others is as hypocritical as it gets. The term, "Convenient Christianity" comes to mind.

Unless of course you think Jesus would be driving a Lambo if he walked the earth today?



Edit: I can't figure out how to host an image apparently. Supposed to be a Family Guy depiction of Jesus in a sports car.

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So anyone that has nice things or makes lots of money isn't living Christ-like? I hate to break it to you, but to most of the world, Americans are super rich. Even people that make around the average for the country are in the top 5% of the world with respect to income. So while to you and me driving a Lamborghini seems like too much, to 95% of the world, every American is driving around in a Lambo, figuratively speaking. So are we all doomed to hell since we have it so good here?

He's been successful. He isn't taking money from the Church. And by all accounts, he is a good leader at his church. I really don't see what the issue is other than the optics of it, but the only reason the optics are bad is because people are hyper-critical and judgmental of others.

GolemIII said:

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OsoCoreyell said:

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I cannot judge the condition of his soul, but I can state that I think his actions tell a lot about the likely condition of his soul. Making Mammon your god is a terrible thing. Mammon will have no mercy on you in the end.

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So you are suggesting that every person working in the factory manufacturing the car should be fired and the factory shut down? What would be an acceptable product for them to manufacture and for people to purchase that you wouldn't consider 'Mammon'?

In your judgement (and that's what it is) what car would it have been ok for him to buy his wife with money he earned from outside activities? A ford? Is that 'Mammon'? Or could he go all the way up to a BMW or maybe a Mercedes? Would it be less Mammony if it was a used Mammon? What if he got a 6 cylinder Mammon with a visible dent? Is that ok? If the Mammon he bought was environmentally friendly, say an Electric Mammon or at least a hybrid Mammon, would that make it better?

What kind of Mammon do you drive? Or is it not Mammon because it's what YOU drive and not what other people drive?

PS. Envy and covetousness are sins too. Just sayin'


EDIT: This whole argument reminds me of a conversation had in John Pisciotta's (spelling?) economics class at Baylor. In a debate over his apparently favorite book "Clashing worlds of economics and faith" - which is not a very thoughtful or rational read - he essentially made the mammon argument over Mercedes. I asked him why he thought all those people making the car should be fired. He did little more than stutter and stumble over a stupid response.

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How much did he earn really is not our business. If you want to get into numbers ask how many did he baptize? Isn't that the appropriate metric for a preacher? The Baptist Standard used to publish those numbers and Cooperative Program gifts by church, don't know if they still do.

Y'all missed the best quote in the entire episode from The Rev. Here is what he told his wife . His quote could be taken one or two ways.

Quote:

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"You light my fire, let this Lamborghini light your fire, baby."

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If I read this correctly he also operates in South Carolina as well as Lakewood. Now that's a helluva commute.

8th anniversary? Dang! How do you top that for the 10th anniversary?!?!

Gray, 45, took over leadership in May of Relentless Church, which had five campuses and an active membership of 22,000 when church founder Ron Carpenter handed him the reins of what had been called Redemption Church for 27 years. Carpenter moved to San Jose, California, to become pastor of Jubilee Christian Center, which he renamed Redemption Bay Area Church.

Gray, who is a Cincinnati native, also remains an associate pastor at Joel Osteen's Lakewood Church in Houston while taking the lead at Relentless. Gray has control of the assets of the Greenville church, its vision, and the future of its ministry.

Greenville's median household income from 2013 to 2017 was a little less than $54,000, about $4,000 less than the U.S. as a whole, according to the Census Bureau. With median income, the midpoint, half of all households in this city of about 500,000 residents make more money and half make less.
Gray said he has saved his money for years and drew on a variety of sources financially including his second book deal and the fourth season of The Book of John Gray, his Oprah Winfrey Network reality-TV show, to pay for the gift. On he and his wife's honeymoon eight years ago, they were so broke that he said they had to share a shrimp cocktail.
His wife, Aventer Gray, defended her husband Sunday in her own Instagram post, saying he gives away cars and furniture as well as coats off his back in addition to tithing to the church. The pastor recently said that people in need, especially widows and veterans, should take money from the church's donation baskets.
"I don't see anyone screaming about how basketball players drive what they do while you paying $$$ to see them play in arenas and on fields," she wrote on Instagram. "We don't live for people! We live for God!"
In a December 2017 interview with The Greenville News when he was hired, John Gray defended pastors who drive fancy cars. He said he had few indulgences and one of those was to own a fine car.
https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/with-tears-lakewood-pastor-john-gray-defends-200k-lamborghini-anniversary-gift-to-wife/285-623484339

contrario said:

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Prairie_Bear said:

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contrario said:

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What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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Are you kidding? It is a Christian's goal to live as Christ like as possible, right? Let alone for a pastor who dedicated his life to service of other's, indulging in consumer goods like this instead of relationships with others is as hypocritical as it gets. The term, "Convenient Christianity" comes to mind.

Unless of course you think Jesus would be driving a Lambo if he walked the earth today?



Edit: I can't figure out how to host an image apparently. Supposed to be a Family Guy depiction of Jesus in a sports car.

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So anyone that has nice things or makes lots of money isn't living Christ-like? I hate to break it to you, but to most of the world, Americans are super rich. Even people that make around the average for the country are in the top 5% of the world with respect to income. So while to you and me driving a Lamborghini seems like too much, to 95% of the world, every American is driving around in a Lambo, figuratively speaking. So are we all doomed to hell since we have it so good here?

He's been successful. He isn't taking money from the Church. And by all accounts, he is a good leader at his church. I really don't see what the issue is other than the optics of it, but the only reason the optics are bad is because people are hyper-critical and judgmental of others.

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The avg American isn't super rich compared to most of the world. You can't compare income from one country to another. It doesn't accurately reflect quality of life. Australians aren't looking at us with envy. We're about 1 of 50 countries doing pretty good near the top of the pack.

Buddha Bear said:

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contrario said:

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Prairie_Bear said:

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contrario said:

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What's the issue? I understand the optics are bad, but why criticize him for being successful in other income earning endeavors?

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Are you kidding? It is a Christian's goal to live as Christ like as possible, right? Let alone for a pastor who dedicated his life to service of other's, indulging in consumer goods like this instead of relationships with others is as hypocritical as it gets. The term, "Convenient Christianity" comes to mind.

Unless of course you think Jesus would be driving a Lambo if he walked the earth today?



Edit: I can't figure out how to host an image apparently. Supposed to be a Family Guy depiction of Jesus in a sports car.

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So anyone that has nice things or makes lots of money isn't living Christ-like? I hate to break it to you, but to most of the world, Americans are super rich. Even people that make around the average for the country are in the top 5% of the world with respect to income. So while to you and me driving a Lamborghini seems like too much, to 95% of the world, every American is driving around in a Lambo, figuratively speaking. So are we all doomed to hell since we have it so good here?

He's been successful. He isn't taking money from the Church. And by all accounts, he is a good leader at his church. I really don't see what the issue is other than the optics of it, but the only reason the optics are bad is because people are hyper-critical and judgmental of others.

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The avg American isn't super rich compared to most of the world. You can't compare income from one country to another. It doesn't accurately reflect quality of life. Australians aren't looking at us with envy. We're about 1 of 50 countries doing pretty good near the top of the pack.

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Right, like I said top 5%. For every Australian that isn't looking at us with envy, there are 50 people from India that are. Yes, there are some countries there are better off than or similar to the US, and I agree standards and costs of living are different, but the fact still remains that 1.2 billion people in India would rather be in the bottom 5% of the US than be in their country. So again, comparatively and figuratively speaking, we are driving Lambos while much of the world is walking and shtting in holes in the ground. So are we all sinners?