9th circuit is getting closer and closer to being back to normal.

ScottS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Deficit and Debt keep rising

---

Did u complain about this when Obama took it from 10T to 19T?

---

Obama did not cause the debt to rise by anywhere near that much. The debt is comprised of the excess of our deficits over over surpluses plus interest. The national deficit exploded in Obama's first two years as president based on the great recession-something he had zero to do with. Deficits decreased after that save his last year.

Deficits are again exploding under Trump. The difference is that we are not in a huge recession. The tax cuts are absolutely causing the deficit to rise at a time it should be falling. My kids and grand kids will be paying for the GOP's short term greed and willful ignorance of basic economics. To add insult to injury, it will be 120 degrees outside while they are doing that thanks to the GOPs willful ignorance on climate change. On the other hand, it is probably a good thing they will be staying inside, avoiding all the mass shooters who exist because of the GOPs willful ignorance on gun violence. Unfortunately, their TV sets will cause them about $10,000 each because of the GOPs willful ignorance on trade.

Good times are coming!

Nice Baghdad Bob impression with your first two sentences, Booray.

Booray said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Deficit and Debt keep rising

---

Did u complain about this when Obama took it from 10T to 19T?

---

Obama did not cause the debt to rise by anywhere near that much. The debt is comprised of the excess of our deficits over over surpluses plus interest. The national deficit exploded in Obama's first two years as president based on the great recession-something he had zero to do with. Deficits decreased after that save his last year.

Deficits are again exploding under Trump. The difference is that we are not in a huge recession. The tax cuts are absolutely causing the deficit to rise at a time it should be falling. My kids and grand kids will be paying for the GOP's short term greed and willful ignorance of basic economics. To add insult to injury, it will be 120 degrees outside while they are doing that thanks to the GOPs willful ignorance on climate change. On the other hand, it is probably a good thing they will be staying inside, avoiding all the mass shooters who exist because of the GOPs willful ignorance on gun violence. Unfortunately, their TV sets will cause them about $10,000 each because of the GOPs willful ignorance on trade.

Good times are coming!

---

Incorrect.

It's failure to cut spending.

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is at record highs.

Spending is at record highs.

Main Street middle class drives the economy to generate revenue.

Congress controls spending.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is down

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tax-revenue-declined-0-4-in-2018-11550084426

Spending is up

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

The knee jerk reaction of every conservative is "its not revenue, its spending." The knee jerk reaction of every liberal is that "it is not spending, its revenue."

Of course, everyone who ever owned a business or ran a household budget knows in their heart that it is both. But since the Reagan years, the GOP has taken to heart Dick Cheney's maxim: deficits don't matter. They refuse to match spending to revenue. They don't offer any actual spending cuts. At least the Democrats attempt to pay for what they spend.

Doc Holliday said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is at record highs.

Spending is at record highs.

Main Street middle class drives the economy to generate revenue.

Congress controls spending.

---

Tax revenue fell for the 2018 budget year (See WSJ link in my other post). And that is absolute revenue, per capita the story is much worse. Facts man. facts.

Regardless, tell me what cuts in spending you would make that would have a material impact on the deficit

Booray said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is down

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tax-revenue-declined-0-4-in-2018-11550084426

Spending is up

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

The knee jerk reaction of every conservative is "its not revenue, its spending." The knee jerk reaction of every liberal is that "it is not spending, its revenue."

Of course, everyone who ever owned a business or ran a household budget knows in their heart that it is both. But since the Reagan years, the GOP has taken to heart Dick Cheney's maxim: deficits don't matter. They refuse to match spending to revenue. They don't offer any actual spending cuts. At least the Democrats attempt to pay for what they spend.

---

you were good up until that last sentence.

Booray said:

---

ScottS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Deficit and Debt keep rising

---

Did u complain about this when Obama took it from 10T to 19T?

---

Obama did not cause the debt to rise by anywhere near that much. The debt is comprised of the excess of our deficits over over surpluses plus interest. The national deficit exploded in Obama's first two years as president based on the great recession-something he had zero to do with. Deficits decreased after that save his last year.

Deficits are again exploding under Trump. The difference is that we are not in a huge recession. The tax cuts are absolutely causing the deficit to rise at a time it should be falling. My kids and grand kids will be paying for the GOP's short term greed and willful ignorance of basic economics. To add insult to injury, it will be 120 degrees outside while they are doing that thanks to the GOPs willful ignorance on climate change. On the other hand, it is probably a good thing they will be staying inside, avoiding all the mass shooters who exist because of the GOPs willful ignorance on gun violence. Unfortunately, their TV sets will cause them about $10,000 each because of the GOPs willful ignorance on trade.

Good times are coming!

---

Obama had no clue what economy even means. I mean come on, he was a community organizer. I bet Michelle balanced their check book.

Net interest payments on the debt alone are around $400B/year.
They estimate they will pay out a total of around $600B in interest in fiscal 2019.

Plus the int rates on our debt have risen because the economy is doing better and they don't have to help build it up like they did for 8yrs under Obama.

BONUS FACT: Though many may believe that "China owns our debt," mainlandChina only held about 5% of the total debt as of May, or about $1.11 trillion. Hong Kong, a "special administrative region" of China, held another $204 billion. China was the top foreign holder of Treasury securities, ahead of Japan, which held roughly $1.1 trillion.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/24/facts-about-the-national-debt/

Booray said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is down

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tax-revenue-declined-0-4-in-2018-11550084426

Spending is up

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

The knee jerk reaction of every conservative is "its not revenue, its spending." The knee jerk reaction of every liberal is that "it is not spending, its revenue."

Of course, everyone who ever owned a business or ran a household budget knows in their heart that it is both. But since the Reagan years, the GOP has taken to heart Dick Cheney's maxim: deficits don't matter. They refuse to match spending to revenue. They don't offer any actual spending cuts. At least the Democrats attempt to pay for what they spend.

---

Revenue is up:

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762

Booray said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is down

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tax-revenue-declined-0-4-in-2018-11550084426

Spending is up

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

The knee jerk reaction of every conservative is "its not revenue, its spending." The knee jerk reaction of every liberal is that "it is not spending, its revenue."

Of course, everyone who ever owned a business or ran a household budget knows in their heart that it is both. But since the Reagan years, the GOP has taken to heart Dick Cheney's maxim: deficits don't matter. They refuse to match spending to revenue. They don't offer any actual spending cuts. At least the Democrats attempt to pay for what they spend.

---

• FY 2019 - $3.44 trillion, estimated.
• FY 2018 - $3.33 trillion.
• FY 2017 - $3.32 trillion.
• FY 2016 - $3.27 trillion.
• FY 2015 - $3.25 trillion.
• FY 2014 - $3.02 trillion.
• FY 2013 - $2.77 trillion.
• FY 2012 - $2.45 trillion.
• FY 2011 - $2.30 trillion.
• FY 2010 - $2.16 trillion.
• FY 2009 - $2.10 trillion.
• FY 2008 - $2.52 trillion.

curtpenn said:

---

Booray said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is down

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tax-revenue-declined-0-4-in-2018-11550084426

Spending is up

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

The knee jerk reaction of every conservative is "its not revenue, its spending." The knee jerk reaction of every liberal is that "it is not spending, its revenue."

Of course, everyone who ever owned a business or ran a household budget knows in their heart that it is both. But since the Reagan years, the GOP has taken to heart Dick Cheney's maxim: deficits don't matter. They refuse to match spending to revenue. They don't offer any actual spending cuts. At least the Democrats attempt to pay for what they spend.

---

Revenue is up:

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762

---

Not really:

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/did-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-pay-itself-2018

The difference between my article and yours is that one (my WSJ article) measured calendar years and one (your balance article) measured fiscal years. But the second article I linked makes clear that when real revenue is measured rather than absolute, there is no question it has declined-however you capture a "year"

But the real killer comes from your source which says:

Revenues would be much higher without the Trump tax plan. It was also lowered by the extension of the Bush tax cuts and the Obama tax cuts. They were meant to fight the 2001 recession and the 2008 recession. They were supposed to spur the consumer spending that drives almost 70% of economic growth.

In other words, the supply side wet dream doesn't work all the time (or even most of the time).

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

If it can't be this way...let it all burn down. It's not right.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

---

I get the feeling this Booray fella benefits from the opposite Doc

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

---

I get the feeling this Booray fella benefits from the opposite Doc

---

I don't think he understands how pissed off the middle class really is.

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

---

I get the feeling this Booray fella benefits from the opposite Doc

---

I don't think he understands how pissed off the middle class really is.

---

Democrats have to live in a delusional state to believe as the do

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

If it can't be this way...let it all burn down. It's not right.

---

"I will never benefit from" is not a concept you understand.

My in-laws were depression kids. He is a WWII vet age 96, she was mostly a stay at home mom who died last year at 93. Both HS grads, no college.

After the war he hooked up with a small firm that built portable aggregate mixing plants. Worked his ass off, company was successful and they ptospered. Retired early at age 62.

In the 30+ years since that retirement they took out way more than they ever put in from Social Security and MediCare. Way, way more.

Most of the nest egg is still there. We f we didn't have a safety net one of two things would happen: (1) they would have died much earlier or (2) they would have run out of money. Either way, their quality of life would have been much diminished.

I am willing to live in that world. The same world were we have the best healthcare ever. The same world where we have all the advantages of the biggest, richest economy ever, anywhere. The same world where we can elevate the lives of billions by providing security and market opportunities to build their nations. The same world where 99.99% of the people born-any place or any time-would choose to live if they could.

That is the world you want to burn down. Shame on you.

Booray said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Booray said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is down

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tax-revenue-declined-0-4-in-2018-11550084426

Spending is up

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

The knee jerk reaction of every conservative is "its not revenue, its spending." The knee jerk reaction of every liberal is that "it is not spending, its revenue."

Of course, everyone who ever owned a business or ran a household budget knows in their heart that it is both. But since the Reagan years, the GOP has taken to heart Dick Cheney's maxim: deficits don't matter. They refuse to match spending to revenue. They don't offer any actual spending cuts. At least the Democrats attempt to pay for what they spend.

---

Revenue is up:

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762

---

Not really:

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/did-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-pay-itself-2018

The difference between my article and yours is that one (my WSJ article) measured calendar years and one (your balance article) measured fiscal years. But the second article I linked makes clear that when real revenue is measured rather than absolute, there is no question it has declined-however you capture a "year"

But the real killer comes from your source which says:

Revenues would be much higher without the Trump tax plan. It was also lowered by the extension of the Bush tax cuts and the Obama tax cuts. They were meant to fight the 2001 recession and the 2008 recession. They were supposed to spur the consumer spending that drives almost 70% of economic growth.

In other words, the supply side wet dream doesn't work all the time (or even most of the time).

---

Face it, you've got nothing. Personally, I'd prefer to see Federal revenues decline every year for a very long time. Only way to drain the swamp is to starve the beast.

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

---

I get the feeling this Booray fella benefits from the opposite Doc

---

I don't think he understands how pissed off the middle class really is.

---

Democrats have to live in a delusional state to believe as the do

---

Dem leadership isn't delusional.

They are merely taking the only options left to them.

Gonna work too.

Canada2017 said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

---

I get the feeling this Booray fella benefits from the opposite Doc

---

I don't think he understands how pissed off the middle class really is.

---

Democrats have to live in a delusional state to believe as the do

---

Dem leadership isn't delusional.

They are merely taking the only options left to them.

Gonna work too.

---

Maybe one day, but not in 2020.

Curt what beast are you starving?
"Face it, you've got nothing. Personally, I'd prefer to see Federal revenues decline every year for a very long time. Only way to drain the swamp is to starve the beast."
Govt? Is dt starving it?

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

---

I get the feeling this Booray fella benefits from the opposite Doc

---

I don't think he understands how pissed off the middle class really is.

---

Democrats have to live in a delusional state to believe as the do

---

Dem leadership isn't delusional.

They are merely taking the only options left to them.

Gonna work too.

---

Maybe one day, but not in 2020.

---

Too early to know.

Regardless long term trends overwhelmingly favor the Dems .

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

---

I get the feeling this Booray fella benefits from the opposite Doc

---

I don't think he understands how pissed off the middle class really is.

---

Democrats have to live in a delusional state to believe as the do

---

Dem leadership isn't delusional.

They are merely taking the only options left to them.

Gonna work too.

---

Maybe one day, but not in 2020.

---

Too early to know.

Regardless long term trends overwhelmingly favor the Dems .

---

Nope.

Trends are like the weather. What seems inevitable always changes in ways many never saw coming.

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Florda_mike said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

---

I get the feeling this Booray fella benefits from the opposite Doc

---

I don't think he understands how pissed off the middle class really is.

---

Democrats have to live in a delusional state to believe as the do

---

Dem leadership isn't delusional.

They are merely taking the only options left to them.

Gonna work too.

---

Maybe one day, but not in 2020.

---

Too early to know.

Regardless long term trends overwhelmingly favor the Dems .

---

Nope.

Trends are like the weather. What seems inevitable always changes in ways many never saw coming.

---

Birth rates, reductions in Church membership, growing populations of illegals , increasing consumer debt , increasing rates of mental illness, increasing number of single parent families.....these trends aren't reversing any time soon if ever.

And all favor the party of FREE.

Thes

---

Study history.

curtpenn said:

---

Booray said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Booray said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is down

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tax-revenue-declined-0-4-in-2018-11550084426

Spending is up

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

The knee jerk reaction of every conservative is "its not revenue, its spending." The knee jerk reaction of every liberal is that "it is not spending, its revenue."

Of course, everyone who ever owned a business or ran a household budget knows in their heart that it is both. But since the Reagan years, the GOP has taken to heart Dick Cheney's maxim: deficits don't matter. They refuse to match spending to revenue. They don't offer any actual spending cuts. At least the Democrats attempt to pay for what they spend.

---

Revenue is up:

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762

---

Not really:

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/did-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-pay-itself-2018

The difference between my article and yours is that one (my WSJ article) measured calendar years and one (your balance article) measured fiscal years. But the second article I linked makes clear that when real revenue is measured rather than absolute, there is no question it has declined-however you capture a "year"

But the real killer comes from your source which says:

Revenues would be much higher without the Trump tax plan. It was also lowered by the extension of the Bush tax cuts and the Obama tax cuts. They were meant to fight the 2001 recession and the 2008 recession. They were supposed to spur the consumer spending that drives almost 70% of economic growth.

In other words, the supply side wet dream doesn't work all the time (or even most of the time).

---

Face it, you've got nothing. Personally, I'd prefer to see Federal revenues decline every year for a very long time. Only way to drain the swamp is to starve the beast.

---

Emblematic of the way "conservatives" have given up thinking in favor of dogma. The question discussed is the cause of the growing deficit. I say it is caused by tax and spending policy, the conservatives say it is only about spending.

Leads to a subsidiary question: what impact did the 2018 tax cuts have on the deficit? Conservatives say it reduced the deficit because revenues grew. I cite a Wall Street Journal article that says no--revenue fell during calendar 2018 and I cite a tax policy center piece that explains the obvious, that even year over year absolute increase in revenue growth is not proof that tax policy is reducing the deficit. Any real analysis must account for inflation, population growth and economic growth.

The conservatives cite fiscal year revenue for 2018 showing a 0.003% increase. There are multiple problems with that number. First, from an accounting perspective, the 2018 fiscal year includes significant tax receipts based on 2017 tax rates. (The 2018 US fiscal year ran from Oct. 1 2017 to Sept. 30-2018-that is why the WSJ calendar year measure is a more accurate test of the tax cut impact on revenue). Second, the number does not account for inflation or population growth. Third, it is is a minuscule increase. Fourth and most importantly, tax revenue received is just a measure of the economy and is only a very indirect measure of the effect of the tax rate changes. For instance-the same chart the conservatives rely on shows much larger tax revenue increases under Obama. If the question is which tax plan increases tax revenue and the chart is supposed to provide an answer, it is clear that the answer is "the Obama tax plan."

But you don't have to take my word or analysis as gospel. The very same article the conservatives rely on comes to the exact same conclusion: the Trump tax plan reduced federal government revenue. And the conservative's take on it all: "You got nothing."

WTH? Does it have to be engraved in stone by God for you to accept it? Your own source clearly and explicitly supports my argument.

The big issue is the deficit. It is undeniable that the GOP is increasing the deficit by reducing available revenue. That is all well and good if they are willing to reduce spending. But they aren't. They want to increase defense spending and entitlement spending for the affluent: see Medicare/Social Security/Farm subsidies. Trump himself tweets on news of the budget deal: we will worry about reductions a couple of years from now.

A real conservative says we need to reduce the deficit by greatly reducing safety net spending.

A moderate says our safety net is ok where it is, we need to reduce the deficit by taxing enough to pay for it.

A liberal says we need to expand the safety net and tax the wealthy greatly to pay for it.

A fool says we can reduce the deficit by reducing taxes and pretending we want to reduce the safety net.


This site is full of fools.

Booray said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Booray said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Booray said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Is REVENUE up or down?

Is SPENDING up or down?

Who/what drives the economy to generate revenue?

Who/what controls spending?

Those are the questions that need answering.

---

Revenue is down

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-tax-revenue-declined-0-4-in-2018-11550084426

Spending is up

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

The knee jerk reaction of every conservative is "its not revenue, its spending." The knee jerk reaction of every liberal is that "it is not spending, its revenue."

Of course, everyone who ever owned a business or ran a household budget knows in their heart that it is both. But since the Reagan years, the GOP has taken to heart Dick Cheney's maxim: deficits don't matter. They refuse to match spending to revenue. They don't offer any actual spending cuts. At least the Democrats attempt to pay for what they spend.

---

Revenue is up:

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762

---

Not really:

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxvox/did-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act-pay-itself-2018

The difference between my article and yours is that one (my WSJ article) measured calendar years and one (your balance article) measured fiscal years. But the second article I linked makes clear that when real revenue is measured rather than absolute, there is no question it has declined-however you capture a "year"

But the real killer comes from your source which says:

Revenues would be much higher without the Trump tax plan. It was also lowered by the extension of the Bush tax cuts and the Obama tax cuts. They were meant to fight the 2001 recession and the 2008 recession. They were supposed to spur the consumer spending that drives almost 70% of economic growth.

In other words, the supply side wet dream doesn't work all the time (or even most of the time).

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Face it, you've got nothing. Personally, I'd prefer to see Federal revenues decline every year for a very long time. Only way to drain the swamp is to starve the beast.

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Emblematic of the way "conservatives" have given up thinking in favor of dogma. The question discussed is the cause of the growing deficit. I say it is caused by tax and spending policy, the conservatives say it is only about spending.

Leads to a subsidiary question: what impact did the 2018 tax cuts have on the deficit? Conservatives say it reduced the deficit because revenues grew. I cite a Wall Street Journal article that says no--revenue fell during calendar 2018 and I cite a tax policy center piece that explains the obvious, that even year over year absolute increase in revenue growth is not proof that tax policy is reducing the deficit. Any real analysis must account for inflation, population growth and economic growth.

The conservatives cite fiscal year revenue for 2018 showing a 0.003% increase. There are multiple problems with that number. First, from an accounting perspective, the 2018 fiscal year includes significant tax receipts based on 2017 tax rates. (The 2018 US fiscal year ran from Oct. 1 2017 to Sept. 30-2018-that is why the WSJ calendar year measure is a more accurate test of the tax cut impact on revenue). Second, the number does not account for inflation or population growth. Third, it is is a minuscule increase. Fourth and most importantly, tax revenue received is just a measure of the economy and is only a very indirect measure of the effect of the tax rate changes. For instance-the same chart the conservatives rely on shows much larger tax revenue increases under Obama. If the question is which tax plan increases tax revenue and the chart is supposed to provide an answer, it is clear that the answer is "the Obama tax plan."

But you don't have to take my word or analysis as gospel. The very same article the conservatives rely on comes to the exact same conclusion: the Trump tax plan reduced federal government revenue. And the conservative's take on it all: "You got nothing."

WTH? Does it have to be engraved in stone by God for you to accept it? Your own source clearly and explicitly supports my argument.

The big issue is the deficit. It is undeniable that the GOP is increasing the deficit by reducing available revenue. That is all well and good if they are willing to reduce spending. But they aren't. They want to increase defense spending and entitlement spending for the affluent: see Medicare/Social Security/Farm subsidies. Trump himself tweets on news of the budget deal: we will worry about reductions a couple of years from now.

A real conservative says we need to reduce the deficit by greatly reducing safety net spending.

A moderate says our safety net is ok where it is, we need to reduce the deficit by taxing enough to pay for it.

A liberal says we need to expand the safety net and tax the wealthy greatly to pay for it.

A fool says we can reduce the deficit by reducing taxes and pretending we want to reduce the safety net.


This site is full of fools.

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I'm in favor of reducing spending. Sadly, Trump is as good as it gets for now. A$$hats like you spread idiocracy that can only lead to runaway spending. Yes, this site has its share of fools.

What spending are you going to cut in a way that will materially reduce the deficit?

Booray: "This site is full of fools."

Somewhat true, but the irony is there are so many more of them on the Left than on the Right.

"Free" college, "free" medicare for all, "gun free zones" which only disarm the victims, and on and on.

Booray said:

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What spending are you going to cut in a way that will materially reduce the deficit?

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I'd like us to resurrect Mister Proxmire. That is, let's start by cutting waste in departments which get most of the federal money. We can support Defense and Social Security, while at the same time going after useless spending within each department.

This works in private business, indeed it's vital to a corporation's survival to cut overhead and waste. The big problem is that the lobbyists never want a project cut in size, even for the best of reason.

Zero based budgeting combined with a 2% reduction per year in available funds across all categories including all entitlements. Let the howling begin.

Oldbear83 said:

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Booray: "This site is full of fools."

Somewhat true, but the irony is there are so many more of them on the Left than on the Right.

"Free" college, "free" medicare for all, "gun free zones" which only disarm the victims, and on and on.

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Who on this site is for Free College or Free Medicare for all? I bet not more than 5 posters.

Doc Holliday said:

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Booray, do you understand the following concept?

I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO HAVE MORE OF MY HARD EARNED MONEY WHERE THEY WILL RECKLESSLY SPEND IT ON BS THAT I WILL NEVER BENEFIT FROM.

Pretty simple concept.

I want to keep more of my money and I want D.C. to be frugal.

How does a grown ass man such as yourself grow up to be a patsy for careless politicians?

If it can't be this way...let it all burn down. It's not right.

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Your boy is the one signing off on all this spending. Instead of shouting at booray why don't you answer his question about budget cuts, and then call your congressman.