Is God all knowing? Do we have free will? If so....

8,793 Views | 118 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Waco1947
Waco1947
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So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?
Waco1947
Doc Holliday
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There's no way in hell you're a pastor.
Polycarp
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Waco1947 said:

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?


So 47, what is it you say about and all powerful God?
bearassnekkid
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Waco1947 said:

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?
Because He is a God of relationship. Free will is the only thing that makes real love and relationship possible. So God loved us enough to give us the power to reject Him. Because of that, we also can have real relationship with him. Elaine is in "eternal damnation" (i.e., eternal separation from God) because she chose to be. There is nothing "cruel" about that.
MoneyBear
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God's patience is the way to harmonize these two points. God is able to see infinite timelines for His creation and He patiently gives people the opportunity to find the thread that leads to Him. Consider what 2Peter 3 says about God's patience toward the people in the time of Noah (Genesis 6:3) even after He told Noah that He would destroy the world. Why is it wrong for God to allow us to choose? Seems to me that creating a race of predestined, preprogrammed robots is the more cynical course.
Sic'em
JXL
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It's impossible to say what God knows. We do know that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9). Thus, the idea that people are predestined for Heaven or Hell from birth is a fallacy.

Because it cannot be determined what God knows, nor is God subject to linear time, the relevant factor becomes your free will. You still have the ability to freely choose to follow Him or not, and it is entirely your choice to make.

Jack and DP
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Elaine's really Eric.
Waco1947
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Waco1947 said:

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?
Paradox or is the premise and conclusion logically true?
Waco1947
ScottS
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God gives Elaine the chance to accept. He gave Stehpen Hawking an extra 50 years beyond his medical evaluation. 47, you ask why is God so cruel. Maybe you need to ask why Elaine is so cruel.
JXL
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Waco1947 said:

Waco1947 said:

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?
Paradox or is the premise and conclusion logically true?


Neither. Elaine was not predestined to Hell from the moment of her creation. She had free will and the ability to choose.
Osodecentx
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Waco1947 said:

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?
"The creation of man whom God in His foreknowledge knew doomed to sin was the awful index of God's omnipotence. For it would have been a thing of trifling and contemptible ease for Perfection to create mere perfection. To do so would, to speak truth, be not creation but extension. Separateness is identity and the only way for God to create, truly create, man was to make him separate from God Himself, and to be separate from God is to be sinful. The creation of evil is therefore the index of God's glory and His power. That had to be so that the creation of good might be the index of man's glory and power. But by God's help. By His help and in His wisdom."
Robert Penn Warren from All The King's Men
Waco1947
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Osodecentx said:

Waco1947 said:

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?
"The creation of man whom God in His foreknowledge knew doomed to sin was the awful index of God's omnipotence. For it would have been a thing of trifling and contemptible ease for Perfection to create mere perfection. To do so would, to speak truth, be not creation but extension. Separateness is identity and the only way for God to create, truly create, man was to make him separate from God Himself, and to be separate from God is to be sinful. The creation of evil is therefore the index of God's glory and His power. That had to be so that the creation of good might be the index of man's glory and power. But by God's help. By His help and in His wisdom."
Robert Penn Warren from All The King's Men

So God is cruel? God creates human so they can go to hell and God knows it? That's not God that's a monster. Why a monster? "God created evil as the index?" So what? God creates humans knowing full well that they fail?
Now God is love - 100% love and grace. How can such of goodness and grace a God create evil?
I believe God created Elaine knowing she would sin but in the end God would save her.
Waco1947
Oldbear83
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Question, Waco. Suppose someone hates God, and God knows it.

Would it be a kindness to force that person to be with God for all eternity, against their will?

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
ScottS
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Oldbear83 said:

Question, Waco. Suppose someone hates God, and God knows it.

Would it be a kindness to force that person to be with God for all eternity, against their will?




A spin off in this question....does 1947 believe God will bring atheists to heaven? Also, does 1947 believe there is a hell?
Waco1947
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Oldbear83 said:

Question, Waco. Suppose someone hates God, and God knows it.

Would it be a kindness to force that person to be with God for all eternity, against their will?


Answer my question please.
Waco1947
Waco1947
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ScottS said:

Oldbear83 said:

Question, Waco. Suppose someone hates God, and God knows it.

Would it be a kindness to force that person to be with God for all eternity, against their will?




A spin off in this question....does 1947 believe God will bring atheists to heaven? Also, does 1947 believe there is a hell?
I will be happy to answer as soon as you answer mine.
Waco1947
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Question, Waco. Suppose someone hates God, and God knows it.

Would it be a kindness to force that person to be with God for all eternity, against their will?


Answer my question please.
My question answers yours. Your answer is the opportunity to advance the discussion.

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
BearN
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ScottS
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1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question
BearN
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Doc Holliday
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Hmm relevant to 47:

This is a trend I'm sure many on here have witnessed. Revelations lays it out: this is humanity's corruption of Christianity. It's only going to get worse. Our little pastor here is already doubting his god.

bearassnekkid
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Waco1947 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Question, Waco. Suppose someone hates God, and God knows it.

Would it be a kindness to force that person to be with God for all eternity, against their will?


Answer my question please.


I have answered it. God isn't the author of evil. He allows rejection of Him by his created beings (bestows Free Will on them) in order to make real relationship (love) possible. That rejection by the created is the introduction of evil.

The fact that some freely choose to reject him does not implicate Him in their evil. Nor does his foreknowing of their rejection (since he is outside linear time) eradicate their freedom of choice. Their freedom creates their culpability, thus rendering their separation from God a just outcome of their rejection.
Golem
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Doc Holliday said:

There's no way in hell you're a pastor.


Yes there is. He is certain to be a pastor in hell.
JXL
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bearassnekkid said:

Waco1947 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Question, Waco. Suppose someone hates God, and God knows it.

Would it be a kindness to force that person to be with God for all eternity, against their will?


Answer my question please.


I have answered it. God isn't the author of evil. He allows rejection of Him by his created beings (bestows Free Will on them) in order to make real relationship (love) possible. That rejection by the created is the introduction of evil.

The fact that some freely choose to reject him does not implicate Him in their evil. Nor does his foreknowing of their rejection (since he is outside linear time) eradicate their freedom of choice. Their freedom creates their culpability, thus rendering their separation from God a just outcome of their rejection.


Absolutely correct.
Osodecentx
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Waco1947 said:

Osodecentx said:

Waco1947 said:

So if God creates Elaine with free will and knows that she will use that free will to reject Christ and go to hell.
Why would God create Elaine in the first place knowing she will suffer eternal damnation?
Remember the orthodox premise is "God is all knowing!"
And "God gave us free will!"
Why is God so cruel to humans that God supposedly loves?
"The creation of man whom God in His foreknowledge knew doomed to sin was the awful index of God's omnipotence. For it would have been a thing of trifling and contemptible ease for Perfection to create mere perfection. To do so would, to speak truth, be not creation but extension. Separateness is identity and the only way for God to create, truly create, man was to make him separate from God Himself, and to be separate from God is to be sinful. The creation of evil is therefore the index of God's glory and His power. That had to be so that the creation of good might be the index of man's glory and power. But by God's help. By His help and in His wisdom."
Robert Penn Warren from All The King's Men

So God is cruel? God creates human so they can go to hell and God knows it? That's not God that's a monster. Why a monster? "God created evil as the index?" So what? God creates humans knowing full well that they fail?
Now God is love - 100% love and grace. How can such of goodness and grace a God create evil?
I believe God created Elaine knowing she would sin but in the end God would save her.

We are really different. I don't know what to say. That you can read Warren's quote and come away with the response you posted leaves me speechless.

I'll drop out of the thread at this point. Fare thee well
Forest Bueller
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Really time to stop engaging 47, he drops this subject about once a week and isn't doing it to learn, he is doing it to lecture.

Anybody coming out of unbelief into faith in Jesus, simply needs to run from his foolishness, there is nothing to be learned or gained, and his teachings if believed, certainly erodes authentic faith.
Oldbear83
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Since Waco has not answered for a while, and I want to believe he means well, I am posting what I believe he meant by his earlier post, and my thoughts on that perspective.

One of the most difficult doctrines for Christians to consider is the existence of hell. Christ was the embodiment of forgiveness and patience, so it seems wrong to some people to believe that there is a place of unending torment for those who reject Christ. Some people focus on the promise that Christ will rule all creation when He returns, and extend that to a belief in universal salvation, that all humanity will be saved.

Personally, I like the notion, since it denies evil even a single victory of God, but Scripture is plain that hell exists and is a terrible end for some. Here are some of Jesus' warnings about hell:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' Matthew 25:41

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

"If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." Mark 9:43

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:18

Also, there are detailed descriptions in other books of the Bible which make plain that hell is an awful place of torment and punishment. If we accept Scripture as true, we must accept that hell exists. I think that Waco has chosen to believe some parts of Scripture, but has rejected others, a dangerous practice which has led many well-meaning people into serious error.

Waco also seems to reject the notion of free will. If God is omniscient, yet allows a person to sin, that in Waco's opinion (as I read it) makes God culpable for our sin, so Waco rejects both the notion of free will and of God's absolute knowledge and power. Waco falls prey to the false contention that God may be all-powerful or perfectly good, but not both. Waco fails to understand that his assumption falsely limits God to human conditions.

To correct the error, I would start by using the analogy of school. While people have different aptitudes for learning and a range of teacher quality, within each classroom the students have the same opportunity to learn the subject. Over the term each student makes a series of decisions about attendance, paying attention in class, doing assignments and homework, and studying for tests. Each student has a lot of control over how well he or she will do in the class, and the final grade is a result of the decisions made by the student throughout the term. Some students blame the teacher without real cause, some blame the school, and some blame the subject, but in the end each student is largely responsible for his or her final grade, according to the work each student put into the class. Some students receive praise and awards for their work, while poor students are embarrassed by their results and some receive penalties such as failing grades or having to repeat a class. Behavioral punishments could include detention, suspension, or expulsion in extreme cases, again due to the student's personal behavior choices.

Or consider the analogy of employment. While there are elements to your personal situation you cannot control, you generally can influence your career path through effort and attitude. Hard work and supporting your team gets you rewards, while a poor attitude and shoddy work can get you fired.

Throughout life, we see that while there are many things outside your control, you still have a lot of control of your outcomes, due to your attitude and effort. Free will is therefore readily apparent to some degree. It is therefore equally obvious that while there are things God controls that we cannot have a say in, we also receive the fruits of our work and character from God, according to our own will.

Since God is good, He offers us His gifts but will not force them upon us. When someone despises God, and there are indeed such people, God does not compel them to suffer His presence, but allows them their will and chosen outcome. God sends messages to such people to warn them of their course and consequence, but if they commit to their own damnation they have made their choice and God allows them their resolution.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
ScottS
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If 47 doesn't believe in hell, does he skip sections of the bible that mention hell, when pastoring his congregation?
bearassnekkid
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ScottS said:

If 47 doesn't believe in hell, does he skip sections of the bible that mention hell, when pastoring his congregation?
He doesn't have a congregation. His screenname is a sock for another poster here. Honestly, it's a pretty impressive troll job.
Waco1947
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ScottS said:

1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question
That's a silly answer to a logic question.
Waco1947
Waco1947
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Forest Bueller said:

Really time to stop engaging 47, he drops this subject about once a week and isn't doing it to learn, he is doing it to lecture.

Anybody coming out of unbelief into faith in Jesus, simply needs to run from his foolishness, there is nothing to be learned or gained, and his teachings if believed, certainly erodes authentic faith.

They can't drop it. These are the kind questions people ask in their heads in Sunday School because Oldbear will jump on them.
I have learned and the question in the OP is from my learnings in logic and philosophy and reason.
If the answer is "I believe on faith." No one else can engage that personal revelation but if one uses reason to make their case then it is a right and good thing to challenge their reasoning.
Do you not answer queries in Sunday School with reason?
Waco1947
ScottS
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Waco1947 said:

ScottS said:

1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question
That's a silly answer to a logic question.


Its not silly at all. The bible clearly outlines hell and the way to avoid going there. You seem to have a problem with the bible's definition of the way to get there and if God really would send someone there. I think you said it would be cruel all the while you ignore the cruelness of someone rejecting God.
Waco1947
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ScottS said:

Waco1947 said:

ScottS said:

1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question
That's a silly answer to a logic question.


Its not silly at all. The bible clearly outlines hell and the way to avoid going there. You seem to have a problem with the bible's definition of the way to get there and if God really would send someone there. I think you said it would be cruel all the while you ignore the cruelness of someone rejecting God.

"The Bible clearly outline hell and the way.there."
The Bible also clearly says God is all knowing.
Thinking people put these two notions together and say "Why would God create a person that God knows is going to Hell?
Waco1947
Waco1947
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Waco1947 said:

ScottS said:

Waco1947 said:

ScottS said:

1947 I believe the bible

Now answer my question
That's a silly answer to a logic question.


Its not silly at all. The bible clearly outlines hell and the way to avoid going there. You seem to have a problem with the bible's definition of the way to get there and if God really would send someone there. I think you said it would be cruel all the while you ignore the cruelness of someone rejecting God.

"The Bible clearly outline hell and the way.there."
The Bible also clearly says God is all knowing.
Thinking people put these two notions together and say "Why would God create a person that God knows is going to Hell?
So ScottS Why?
Waco1947
Oldbear83
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Waco: "These are the kind questions people ask in their heads in Sunday School because Oldbear will jump on them."

So Waco feels fine to throw shade at me, but lacks the courage to answer my post to him.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
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