Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

---

No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

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I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

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Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

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Don't agree. Actually, no real reason to "argue". Either they will be saved, or they won't. Not my job to argue them into anything.

Waco1947 said:

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Because creation needs a creator hence Genesis 1

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I'm sure you were taught that Genesis is poetry and didactic fiction, not a science book.

Not many young-earth creationist around here.

UBBY said:

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fadskier said:

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Midnight Rider said:

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fadskier said:

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Midnight Rider said:

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fadskier said:

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Midnight Rider said:

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And won't we all be surprised if we find there ain't no pearly gates, above us only sky, and all this debate about whose understanding of the scripture is correct is just a bunch of mental masturbation.

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If you don't care, why are you here?

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Because I don't know.

---

Don't know what? If God is in control? If God is control (as in the op.) If there is a Heaven? What?

---

I don't know if there is a God. If there happens to be a God, I don't know if he is in control (or is control). I don't know if there is a heaven. But I have an innate curiosity about these things, which draws me into theological discussions.

---

Yes
I'm not sure
Yes

I would say this. If you believe in God, accept Jesus as your Savior and it all turns out false...you've lost nothing. It it turns out to be true, you've gained everything.

---

You can say this about all religions.

---

You can say it, but it is only true of Christianity.

fadskier said:

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UBBY said:

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fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

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And won't we all be surprised if we find there ain't no pearly gates, above us only sky, and all this debate about whose understanding of the scripture is correct is just a bunch of mental masturbation.

---

If you don't care, why are you here?

---

Because I don't know.

---

Don't know what? If God is in control? If God is control (as in the op.) If there is a Heaven? What?

---

I don't know if there is a God. If there happens to be a God, I don't know if he is in control (or is control). I don't know if there is a heaven. But I have an innate curiosity about these things, which draws me into theological discussions.

---

Yes
I'm not sure
Yes

I would say this. If you believe in God, accept Jesus as your Savior and it all turns out false...you've lost nothing. It it turns out to be true, you've gained everything.

---

You can say this about all religions.

---

You can say it, but it is only true of Christianity.

---

Really? What evidence is there of heaven? Of course the answer is there is none. So then it turns back to faith does it not? Faith is belief without sufficient evidence. In any other line of discourse about fact based claims, this line of thinking would be laughed out of the room.

This all comes down to faith. Christians and Christianity hold this in the highest regard. This is a big part where we just disagree about what line of thinking should deserve respect. In science, truth is all. In religion, faith is all. This is about as invidious as comparisons get.

This doesn't mean I don't respect people who have faith, I just disagree with them.

UBBY said:

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fadskier said:

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UBBY said:

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fadskier said:

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Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

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Midnight Rider said:

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And won't we all be surprised if we find there ain't no pearly gates, above us only sky, and all this debate about whose understanding of the scripture is correct is just a bunch of mental masturbation.

---

If you don't care, why are you here?

---

Because I don't know.

---

Don't know what? If God is in control? If God is control (as in the op.) If there is a Heaven? What?

---

I don't know if there is a God. If there happens to be a God, I don't know if he is in control (or is control). I don't know if there is a heaven. But I have an innate curiosity about these things, which draws me into theological discussions.

---

Yes
I'm not sure
Yes

I would say this. If you believe in God, accept Jesus as your Savior and it all turns out false...you've lost nothing. It it turns out to be true, you've gained everything.

---

You can say this about all religions.

---

You can say it, but it is only true of Christianity.

---

Really? What evidence is there of heaven? Of course the answer is there is none. So then it turns back to faith does it not? Faith is belief without sufficient evidence. In any other line of discourse about fact based claims, this line of thinking would be laughed out of the room.

This all comes down to faith. Christians and Christianity hold this in the highest regard. This is a big part where we just disagree about what line of thinking should deserve respect. In science, truth is all. In religion, faith is all. This is about as invidious as comparisons get.

This doesn't mean I don't respect people who have faith, I just disagree with them.

---

I was referring to the part about Christ.

fadskier said:

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UBBY said:

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fadskier said:

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UBBY said:

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fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

And won't we all be surprised if we find there ain't no pearly gates, above us only sky, and all this debate about whose understanding of the scripture is correct is just a bunch of mental masturbation.

---

If you don't care, why are you here?

---

Because I don't know.

---

Don't know what? If God is in control? If God is control (as in the op.) If there is a Heaven? What?

---

I don't know if there is a God. If there happens to be a God, I don't know if he is in control (or is control). I don't know if there is a heaven. But I have an innate curiosity about these things, which draws me into theological discussions.

---

Yes
I'm not sure
Yes

I would say this. If you believe in God, accept Jesus as your Savior and it all turns out false...you've lost nothing. It it turns out to be true, you've gained everything.

---

You can say this about all religions.

---

You can say it, but it is only true of Christianity.

---

Really? What evidence is there of heaven? Of course the answer is there is none. So then it turns back to faith does it not? Faith is belief without sufficient evidence. In any other line of discourse about fact based claims, this line of thinking would be laughed out of the room.

This all comes down to faith. Christians and Christianity hold this in the highest regard. This is a big part where we just disagree about what line of thinking should deserve respect. In science, truth is all. In religion, faith is all. This is about as invidious as comparisons get.

This doesn't mean I don't respect people who have faith, I just disagree with them.

---

I was referring to the part about Christ.

---

In that case yes lol.

UBBY said:

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fadskier said:

---

UBBY said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

And won't we all be surprised if we find there ain't no pearly gates, above us only sky, and all this debate about whose understanding of the scripture is correct is just a bunch of mental masturbation.

---

If you don't care, why are you here?

---

Because I don't know.

---

Don't know what? If God is in control? If God is control (as in the op.) If there is a Heaven? What?

---

I don't know if there is a God. If there happens to be a God, I don't know if he is in control (or is control). I don't know if there is a heaven. But I have an innate curiosity about these things, which draws me into theological discussions.

---

Yes
I'm not sure
Yes

I would say this. If you believe in God, accept Jesus as your Savior and it all turns out false...you've lost nothing. It it turns out to be true, you've gained everything.

---

You can say this about all religions.

---

You can say it, but it is only true of Christianity.

---

Really? What evidence is there of heaven? Of course the answer is there is none. So then it turns back to faith does it not? Faith is belief without sufficient evidence. In any other line of discourse about fact based claims, this line of thinking would be laughed out of the room.

This all comes down to faith. Christians and Christianity hold this in the highest regard. This is a big part where we just disagree about what line of thinking should deserve respect. In science, truth is all. In religion, faith is all. This is about as invidious as comparisons get.

This doesn't mean I don't respect people who have faith, I just disagree with them.

---

Is "faith" belief doctrine (for example the Virgin Birth or an All powerful God? For many faith means "I believe in impossible unprovable doctrines."

or is faith following Jesus in his command to love."

You don't really care about the opinions of others, you just want to espouse your own. People have proven you wrong time and time again and you just bluster...

I asked Ubby not you.

Waco1947 said:

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UBBY said:

---

fadskier said:

---

UBBY said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

fadskier said:

---

Midnight Rider said:

---

And won't we all be surprised if we find there ain't no pearly gates, above us only sky, and all this debate about whose understanding of the scripture is correct is just a bunch of mental masturbation.

---

If you don't care, why are you here?

---

Because I don't know.

---

Don't know what? If God is in control? If God is control (as in the op.) If there is a Heaven? What?

---

I don't know if there is a God. If there happens to be a God, I don't know if he is in control (or is control). I don't know if there is a heaven. But I have an innate curiosity about these things, which draws me into theological discussions.

---

Yes
I'm not sure
Yes

I would say this. If you believe in God, accept Jesus as your Savior and it all turns out false...you've lost nothing. It it turns out to be true, you've gained everything.

---

You can say this about all religions.

---

You can say it, but it is only true of Christianity.

---

Really? What evidence is there of heaven? Of course the answer is there is none. So then it turns back to faith does it not? Faith is belief without sufficient evidence. In any other line of discourse about fact based claims, this line of thinking would be laughed out of the room.

This all comes down to faith. Christians and Christianity hold this in the highest regard. This is a big part where we just disagree about what line of thinking should deserve respect. In science, truth is all. In religion, faith is all. This is about as invidious as comparisons get.

This doesn't mean I don't respect people who have faith, I just disagree with them.

---

Is "faith" belief doctrine (for example the Virgin Birth or an All powerful God? For many faith means "I believe in impossible unprovable doctrines."

or is faith following Jesus in his command to love."

---

I'm sure many on here could explain the Christian viewpoint on faith better than I can.

From my viewpoint it is a trust and belief in God that everything will be alright in the end and that if you have faith in what the Bible teaches you will be rewarded in the afterlife. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong but this seems to me to be what Christian faith is in relation to God and the Bible.

My issue with faith is that any religion can claim it without any empirical evidence. I know then that a response could be that that's the point of having faith.

It's one thing for you to have faith in yourself or in other people, it's another type of faith to believe in specific exact events without any evidence in the known universe.

Ubby you are close to the kingdom of God. Faith is knowing God goes with you through all joy and tragedy and maybe there is no "happy ending" but God's loving presence is with you.

UBBY: "My issue with faith is that any religion can claim it without any empirical evidence. I know then that a response could be that that's the point of having faith.

It's one thing for you to have faith in yourself or in other people, it's another type of faith to believe in specific exact events without any evidence in the known universe."

A good post and perfectly rational concern.

My response starts with a comment that this is why Bible study is so important. It's completely natural to trust your own instincts and mind, but it also leads to a lot of error. I am reminded of the verse in Judges (21:25) which reads:"In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as they saw fit"

A lot of people here, I believe, would see that condition as a good thing, everybody just doing their best to do right as they saw it. But every human has blind sports, biases, and personal failings, which over time lead to mistakes, sometimes serious errors with bad terrible consequences.

This means that beyond a certain point, we all need to trust God's help for our needs, and sometimes that does mean believing in "specific exact events". That does not mean blindly going along with what someone in a religious position says - Jesus was very harsh in rebuking the Scribes and Pharisees, since their actual behavior led people into sin instead of a greater relationship with the Lord.

The Bible says in many places not to test the Lord, That means - to me - you take your child to a doctor when sick, not assuming prayer will save them. It means you work hard for your money, not assuming you will have your bills paid by God so you don't have to work. It means you pray about life decisions, but also do your homework to understand as much as possible.

But it also means you don't ignore God out of arrogance or fear. Trusting in God is more than a social comfort zone. There are times where it does involve meeting a specific need, which is also why prayer matters, Prayer is not just asking for what we want, as if God were some kind of cosmic vending machine, it's about understanding what we are to do in different situations. If we can understand what God wants, it's easier to know what we should ask for in order to do what is set for us.

I appreciate your honest thoughts and points. I'll try to explain from a Catholic viewpoint

UBBY said:

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I'm sure many on here could explain the Christian viewpoint on faith better than I can.
From my viewpoint it is a trust and belief in God that everything will be alright in the end and that if you have faith in what the Bible teaches you will be rewarded in the afterlife. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong but this seems to me to be what Christian faith is in relation to God and the Bible.

---

Just a little nuance here, if you mean "alright in the end" as the afterlife, more or less - yes. If you mean that phrase to be "as at end of a journey or earthly suffering", no. That would be the "Health and Wealth gospel". That is a very dangerous philosophy or theology. Because many times we don't get what we want. Christ tells us to take up our cross daily. We ARE going to suffer on earth. If we die in friendship with Jesus, we will get to heaven and enjoy being in the presence of God.

UBBY said:

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My issue with faith is that any religion can claim it without any empirical evidence. I know then that a response could be that that's the point of having faith.
It's one thing for you to have faith in yourself or in other people, it's another type of faith to believe in specific exact events without any evidence in the known universe.

---

It depends on what evidence are you requiring evidence of a Creator or divinity of Jesus. I believe one should start with believe in a Prime Mover or Creator. From their one can walk thru believe in the existence of Jesus and then the evidence of his divinity.

Are people not capable of having personal failings or mistakes and find a way to correct them and grow as a person without assistance from the Bible? I have in my own life.

Doesn't it go back to God's will when talking about prayer? You can prayer for whatever you want or for whomever you want but God will act as he sees fit.

How does prayer allow you to understand what to do in different situations?

Shouldn't people be able to decide for themselves with evidence whether there is a creator or not?

UBBY said:

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Are people not capable of having personal failings or mistakes and find a way to correct them and grow as a person without assistance from the Bible? I have in my own life.

Doesn't it go back to God's will when talking about prayer? You can prayer for whatever you want or for whomever you want but God will act as he sees fit.

How does prayer allow you to understand what to do in different situations?

---

As a Christian, I question that myself sometimes.

UBBY said:

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Are people not capable of having personal failings or mistakes and find a way to correct them and grow as a person without assistance from the Bible? I have in my own life.

Doesn't it go back to God's will when talking about prayer? You can prayer for whatever you want or for whomever you want but God will act as he sees fit.

How does prayer allow you to understand what to do in different situations?

---

A person can learn on their own, but they learn faster and better with a good teacher. It's the same with Scripture. Proper grounding in the fundamentals is very important.

As to God, it's a mistake to impose negative qualities. Your post seems to think a person who loves God might be cheated or abused by Him, which is not the case. True, sometimes we get situations in Life which we do not like or understand, but it's been my experience that not only does God supply us with everything we need, He also is receptive to things we desire, so long as what we desire is right with Him. That is, I have had stressful days when I asked God to lighten the noise and He did so. I have received blessings by request which included good rest, healing faster than usual, and success in a test. Not so I could have an easy life, but so I could get through difficult times, is how I understand the matter. And I understand better why some bad things had to happen. The suffering I have endured, from discrimination and cancer to name two big ones, has helped me to be able to tell others who have suffered, that I indeed have been there myself and know what it is like.

Prayer is a thing which confuses a lot of people. Some think you just ask for what you want, but that can be materialism or laziness. Others think it's God demanding we praise him or else. It is - again for me - a lot more like a really good and long friendship with someone you can trust and who has great perception and wisdom. God does not make us do anything, so we keep our free will, but communion with God helps me to grow, to gain perspective about other people, to seek peace and strength and wisdom, This in turn helps me see new possibilities in solving problems and trying to grow as a person.

UBBY said:

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Shouldn't people be able to decide for themselves with evidence whether there is a creator or not?

---

Keep it up Ubby. You are asking right questions. You will hear and have heard an old theism.
There is a new theism out there called "Existential/Process" theism that allows you to be secular and spiritual. Keep asking.

UBBY said:

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Are people not capable of having personal failings or mistakes and find a way to correct them and grow as a person without assistance from the Bible?

---

How do you know what is "correct?"

Ubby
Prayers:
1. Praise
2. Thanksgiving
3. Confession
4. Commitment "God I promise ...."
5. Petition "God be with those people there...,"
6. Intervention ""God go with me through this trial ...."
7. Whining "Why me Lord?"
8. Screaming in anger "What the hell God?" Do

UBBY said:

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Shouldn't people be able to decide for themselves with evidence whether there is a creator or not?

---

Absolutely. Please let me know where/if I have implied otherwise.

I will add one caveat to that ... a person should look at good evidence for the existence of a creator.

I've been blessed to have be raised in a family with a strong belief in God. As I matured, I never wavered in faith, but I began to investigate logic and reason. I looked at many of the common rejections of a creator and various cosmological, philosophical, and moral arguments for God. I found them very compelling for believe in that creator, God.

Waco1947 said:

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There is a new theism out there called "Existential/Process" theism that allows you to be secular and spiritual. Keep asking.

---

Ubby, please disregard this new theism. It was made up by man about 100 years ago. It is false and extremely flawed. It denies everything taught in Christianity. No real Christian theologian takes it seriously.

I trust a faith that has been around for 2000 years and another 2000+ years with our Hebrew brethren.

Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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There is a new theism out there called "Existential/Process" theism that allows you to be secular and spiritual. Keep asking.

---

Ubby, please disregard this new theism. It was made up by man about 100 years ago. It is false and extremely flawed. It denies everything taught in Christianity. No real Christian theologian takes it seriously.

I trust a faith that has been around for 2000 years and another 2000+ years with our Hebrew brethren.

---

If a Christian theology is going to make a scientific claim then those proponents need to back it up with science. Your scientific claim is "God is all powerful." You brought science to the table then had better defend it with science. You can't and you will not admit it.

Waco1947 said:

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If a Christian theology is going to make a scientific claim then those proponents need to back it up with science. Your scientific claim is "God is all powerful." You brought science to the table then had better defend it with science. You can't and you will not admit it.

---

Fair enough. I present the Universe ...
The universe was created from nothing (ex nihilo). The creator of the universe would have to be outside of time and space. A being that has these abilities to do this would be All-powerful. I believe that being to be God; therefore, God is All-powerful.
If I understand correctly, you claim that God is NOT all-powerful, but a God of Love.

Please provide specific answers to the following:

Who created the universe?
How did your God come into existence?
Where is the proof for your God of Love?

Sam Lowry said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

---

No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

---

I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

---

Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

---

Wrong. We have rules that govern our universe without any rule-maker.

TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

---

No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

---

I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

---

Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

---

Wrong. We have rules that govern our universe without any rule-maker.

---

Your god, then, is Chance.

Oldbear83 said:

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Lots to unpack from your post, TS, so let me respond by point, please:


TS: "If heaven is going to be utopia, but you still have free will there, then why wouldn't Yahweh have put all living things in the Universe, including people, there to begin with?"

First, I think you make a mistake by imagining 'Utopia'. One detriment to lack of a classical education, is that people fail to understand that 'Utopia' literally means 'no where', as in a place which cannot exist.

I would suggest that a better concept would be a place where everything is as it should be, which also explains why we do not start there. The Bible tells us we started in Eden, which is Paradise, but screwed up the place through our decisions and actions. To you this may be just a fable, but if one accepts that Adam and Eve, who were not born in sin, screwed up, then anyone who was human would sooner or later screw up. I know you're not into Bible reading TS, but if you read through the Bible you will find many accounts of human failing and redemption through God's love.

Therefore, it makes sense that heaven would be a place God has prepared for us after we have learned from our mistakes and His grace.


TS: " Why subject them to struggles and misfortunes of this life?"

Why did you go to school? Why did you have to complete assignments and study for tests? When you started working, why did you start at the bottom of the crew, with no credibility or reputation? Don't you have to work your way to accomplishment, even if you have great potential? The struggles and misfortunes of this life serve to remind us not to love the short life here too much, to be sensitive and compassionate to those around us who suffer, that we might work to ease each other's pain and troubles, and we grow through challenges and tests of life.



TS: " Why require them to believe in just one religion out of thousands?"

You see from an invalid perspective. Why does 2+2 equal 4 and not whatever we want it to be? Why are there specific chemical properties, so that we are warned against mixing certain chemicals, and to check our numbers before we put something into practice? Why does computer code have to be written in a certain syntax?

Everything requires order, and one cannot serve God while denying Him. It matters therefore that we seek God in our hearts and work, and love each other as creations of God. If someone is able to do this, the details will sort themselves out in due time.


TS: " Would any loving god really require all of the convoluted mental gymnastics necessary, to reconcile all of the biblical contradictions, and inconsistencies?"

You see what you believe to be 'contradictions', although they are not, because you are bigoted against believing, and so you create excuses to run from God. It's important to understand Scripture In context, and not confuse it for something it never claimed to be.

Jesus once advised people to give Caesar what was his, and to give God what is His. The same principle applies here to biblical wisdom.


TS: " Why require the convoluted justification of biblical atrocities that one has to embrace, in order to convince oneself the religious culture one is born into is true and virtuous?"

Strange, the only atrocities I see in Scripture were evils done by men, and are no worse than atrocities still committed today.

You seem to be confusing human behavior for divine direction. And you certainly seem blind to the history of humanism.


TS: " Would a benevolent god place mankind in this position, in a chaotic universe, demanding blind faith in the unbelievable, without objective evidence, and under penalty for failure to believe?"

All this question tells me is that you are emotionally bigoted against faith, and desperately want God to be under human control. Your demand for "objective evidence', for example, amounts to nothing more than demanding God prove Himself to human satisfaction, limited to human comprehension and human standards.

That notion is frankly absurd if you give it any real thought.

Actually it's pretty good evidence there is no god.


TS: " Isn't it all nonsense?"
No, faith is not 'nonsense'. It is beautiful, like the trust of a child and the love of a couple who have been married a half-century. Faith makes things possible which ordinary humans cannot imagine will ever be so.



TS: " Isn't belief nonsense?"

No. Belief is the necessary floor on which all accomplishment starts its walk. This is true of secular atheists as much as the most devout priest.

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TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

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Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

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Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

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I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

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If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

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No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

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I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

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Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

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Wrong. We have rules that govern our universe without any rule-maker.

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That is simply faith on your part. It is your hope in the unprovable.

Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

---

No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

---

I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

---

Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

---

Wrong. We have rules that govern our universe without any rule-maker.

---

Your god, then, is Chance.

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billions of physical dynamics that in and of themselves follow physics, mathematics, chemistry and biological laws that are completely unpredictable because all you is process and change and added to it are 7 B human decisions making possibilities that make for chaos or chance.

Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

---

No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

---

I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

---

Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

---

Wrong. We have rules that govern our universe without any rule-maker.

---

Your god, then, is Chance.

---

billions of physical dynamics that in and of themselves follow physics, mathematics, chemistry and biological laws that are completely unpredictable because all you is process and change and added to it are 7 B human decisions making possibilities that make for chaos or chance.

---

Yup, that's a lab-coat liturgy right there.

Oldbear83 said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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TexasScientist said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Says who what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God islobe) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend.

---

Are you really making the argument that there are no scientists who conclude that creation requires a creator?

You want to talk about things that are spiritual rather than physical, but drawing a distinction between the physical and spiritual is not all that relevant if you also claim that God is real. If you claim that God is real, then the realm of science is only examining one facet of reality.

In any event, Christian belief is that God is spirit and also that God intervened physically in the world.

---

Says who - what physicist or scientist?
Stay in theology. Theology concerns itself with the spiritual (specifically God is love) not the object world.
You are trying to sneak God into an object world. Stay spiritual my friend. Again look at love for your faith not trying to prove God with science. You can't.

---

I don't need to prove God with science. I am asking you if you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator. Are you really making that argument?

---

If you are going to argue with TXS or secular people then you need science.

---

No, actually, I don't. In any event, I am asking you a question.

Do you actually believe there aren't scientists who say that the creation requires a creator? Yes or no?

---

I don't know but it doesn't help your argument. It's not a numbers game it's physics. Can God over rule physics?

---

Physics is mere description. There are no rules without a rule-maker.

---

Wrong. We have rules that govern our universe without any rule-maker.

---

Your god, then, is Chance.

---

billions of physical dynamics that in and of themselves follow physics, mathematics, chemistry and biological laws that are completely unpredictable because all you is process and change and added to it are 7 B human decisions making possibilities that make for chaos or chance.

---

Yup, that's a lab-coat liturgy right there.

We agree. It is lab coat theology (not liturgy). It is also the way people think. Magical Santa Claus is an old theism that has died out logically, theologically, and secularly. A better theism is built on love and justice. Scientifically, your existence as a decision making, physically thinking, tells me that you are a human being of value and exist as such because of God's love.

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Waco1947 said:

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We agree. It is lab coat theology (not liturgy). It is also the way people think. Magical Santa Claus is an old theism that has died out logically, theologically, and secularly. A better theism is built on love and justice. Scientifically, your existence as a decision making, physically thinking, tells me that you are a human being of value and exist as such because of God's love.

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I'm still waiting on the answers to the simple questions that I posed before. I have copied and pasted them below for your review. I took the time to honor your question.

Waco1947 said:

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If a Christian theology is going to make a scientific claim then those proponents need to back it up with science. Your scientific claim is "God is all powerful." You brought science to the table then had better defend it with science. You can't and you will not admit it.

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Fair enough. I present the Universe ...
The universe was created from nothing (ex nihilo). The creator of the universe would have to be outside of time and space. A being that has these abilities to do this would be All-powerful. I believe that being to be God; therefore, God is All-powerful.
If I understand correctly, you claim that God is NOT all-powerful, but a God of Love.

Please provide specific answers to the following:

Who created the universe?
How did your God come into existence?
Where is the proof for your God of Love?

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?