"God is control." I hear that phrase a lot.

28,690 Views | 402 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Waco1947
Coke Bear
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UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?
Oldbear83
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UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
God does not enslave His children. We are allowed free will, to do good if we will and evil if we so will.

I do wonder why you seek to blame God for human acts of evil?
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
UBBY
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Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
God does not enslave His children. We are allowed free will, to do good if we will and evil if we so will.

I do wonder why you seek to blame God for human acts of evil?


He receives praise when good things happen. I would assume he would take blame when bad things happen also.

He allows these things to happen. He knows everything that will happen in the future does he not?

If you were God would you allow children to be murdered and raped?
Oldbear83
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UBBY said:

Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
God does not enslave His children. We are allowed free will, to do good if we will and evil if we so will.

I do wonder why you seek to blame God for human acts of evil?


He receives praise when good things happen. I would assume he would take blame when bad things happen also.

He allows these things to happen. He knows everything that will happen in the future does he not?

If you were God would you allow children to be murdered and raped?
I answered you. Why do you think repeating the question will bring a different answer?

I will observe that praise and blame are freely offered by people, and often out of emotion. I would say that God sees the heart and forgives someone speaking from pain or in ignorance, but someone speaking from malice or hatred puts themselves in peril with their words.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
UBBY
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Coke Bear said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?


There isn't a reason behind it. Its chance.

You also see instances where things go perfectly wrong like a woman being decapitated while driving. Or a man being crushed by his vehicle and later he dies a slow painful death.

People have this insatiable desire to attach meaning to something. Everything doesn't happen for a reason. That's very obvious to anyone who has studied human history.
UBBY
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Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
God does not enslave His children. We are allowed free will, to do good if we will and evil if we so will.

I do wonder why you seek to blame God for human acts of evil?


He receives praise when good things happen. I would assume he would take blame when bad things happen also.

He allows these things to happen. He knows everything that will happen in the future does he not?

If you were God would you allow children to be murdered and raped?
I answered you. Why do you think repeating the question will bring a different answer?

I will observe that praise and blame are freely offered by people, and often out of emotion. I would say that God sees the heart and forgives someone speaking from pain or in ignorance, but someone speaking from malice or hatred puts themselves in peril with their words.


How could you not be angry looking at it from my point of view?

Coke Bear
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UBBY said:

There isn't a reason behind it. Its chance.

You also see instances where things go perfectly wrong like a woman being decapitated while driving. Or a man being crushed by his vehicle and later he dies a slow painful death.

People have this insatiable desire to attach meaning to something. Everything doesn't happen for a reason. That's very obvious to anyone who has studied human history.
If God is the author of life then He has to authority to take it. Every day that we live is a gift from God.

For instance, suppose I was to give you $100 everyday for no reason, a gift. I could give you this $100 everyday for 10, 20, 40, or 60 years. You didn't deserve this money. You did nothing to earn it. I am a bad guy, if I stop giving it to you?

Just like our lives are a daily gift from God. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. So if an innocent woman is decapitated in an auto accident, it's sad, tragic, and justification for anger. If God decided that it was her time, that's His choice. The gift ended.

What about the guy who dies a slow, painful death in his auto accident. Maybe in that time he repented of his evils and reconciled with God and received eternal salvation.

We, as mere humans, may never know why God permits the evil until we get to Heaven. Just like the toddler that cries with the shots. He may not understand why a nurse stabbed him with a sharp object until he is older in life.

We Christians believe that any suffering on earth will be ultimately rewarded in Heaven.

Why are people quick to blame God for the evils, but not thank Him for the gifts that we receive?

Besides that "Problem of Evil", have you investigated the other proofs for God's existence?

Here is an article that can explain the Problem of Evilmuch better than I can.
Oldbear83
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UBBY said:

Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
God does not enslave His children. We are allowed free will, to do good if we will and evil if we so will.

I do wonder why you seek to blame God for human acts of evil?


He receives praise when good things happen. I would assume he would take blame when bad things happen also.

He allows these things to happen. He knows everything that will happen in the future does he not?

If you were God would you allow children to be murdered and raped?
I answered you. Why do you think repeating the question will bring a different answer?

I will observe that praise and blame are freely offered by people, and often out of emotion. I would say that God sees the heart and forgives someone speaking from pain or in ignorance, but someone speaking from malice or hatred puts themselves in peril with their words.


How could you not be angry looking at it from my point of view?


You choose to be angry.

Stop and consider for a moment, that we all die. Every one of us. It's just a matter of time.

Part of life is learning to tell what we can control, and what we cannot control. And there is a lot we cannot control, including a lot of what other people do.

People make choices about what they think, feel, say and do. The thing that impresses me is not that some people do very bad things, but how many do good even when there is no benefit for them.

People donate to help people they don't know, may not even meet.

People give money, blood, even organs.

People look out for children and animals when they show up alone.

one reason I believe in God, is because I see so many people who live the way He does.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
curtpenn
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UBBY said:

Coke Bear said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?


There isn't a reason behind it. Its chance.

You also see instances where things go perfectly wrong like a woman being decapitated while driving. Or a man being crushed by his vehicle and later he dies a slow painful death.

People have this insatiable desire to attach meaning to something. Everything doesn't happen for a reason. That's very obvious to anyone who has studied human history.
FWIW, I've heard that "everything happens for a reason" all my life and have never really accepted it. I commend you for wrestling with these difficult issues. For your further consideration, may I suggest the works of CS Lewis and Peter Kreeft as good places to search?

https://www.amazon.com/God-Dock-C-S-Lewis/dp/0802871836/ref=sr_1_1?crid=AJZ2F6D6QM81&keywords=god+in+the+dock+cs+lewis&qid=1571796530&sprefix=god+in+the+dock%2Caps%2C162&sr=8-1

http://www.peterkreeft.com/

Blessings for your journey.
JXL
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UBBY said:

Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
God does not enslave His children. We are allowed free will, to do good if we will and evil if we so will.

I do wonder why you seek to blame God for human acts of evil?


He receives praise when good things happen. I would assume he would take blame when bad things happen also.

He allows these things to happen. He knows everything that will happen in the future does he not?

If you were God would you allow children to be murdered and raped?


How would you prevent that from happening while preserving free will?
Waco1947
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Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:


We agree. It is lab coat theology (not liturgy). It is also the way people think. Magical Santa Claus is an old theism that has died out logically, theologically, and secularly. A better theism is built on love and justice. Scientifically, your existence as a decision making, physically thinking, tells me that you are a human being of value and exist as such because of God's love.


I'm still waiting on the answers to the simple questions that I posed before. I have copied and pasted them below for your review. I took the time to honor your question.

Waco1947 said:

If a Christian theology is going to make a scientific claim then those proponents need to back it up with science. Your scientific claim is "God is all powerful." You brought science to the table then had better defend it with science. You can't and you will not admit it.
Fair enough. I present the Universe ...
The universe was created from nothing (ex nihilo). The creator of the universe would have to be outside of time and space. A being that has these abilities to do this would be All-powerful. I believe that being to be God; therefore, God is All-powerful.
If I understand correctly, you claim that God is NOT all-powerful, but a God of Love.

Please provide specific answers to the following:

Who created the universe?
How did your God come into existence?
Where is the proof for your God of Love?


Who created the universe? I don't know. Neither do you or scientists.
How did your God come into existence? Existentially. Through my human consciousness that I am valued and worthy because I have free will - I can make decisions. My value rests on my ability to make decisions and not dependent on someone else's will.
Where is the proof for your God of Love? Jesus on the cross and His resurrection
Waco1947
Waco1947
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Your question: " How did your God come into existence?"
I owe you a better answer. I hinted but did not flesh out my answer. I'll come at it again tomorrow.
Waco1947
JXL
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Waco1947 said:

Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:


We agree. It is lab coat theology (not liturgy). It is also the way people think. Magical Santa Claus is an old theism that has died out logically, theologically, and secularly. A better theism is built on love and justice. Scientifically, your existence as a decision making, physically thinking, tells me that you are a human being of value and exist as such because of God's love.


I'm still waiting on the answers to the simple questions that I posed before. I have copied and pasted them below for your review. I took the time to honor your question.

Waco1947 said:

If a Christian theology is going to make a scientific claim then those proponents need to back it up with science. Your scientific claim is "God is all powerful." You brought science to the table then had better defend it with science. You can't and you will not admit it.
Fair enough. I present the Universe ...
The universe was created from nothing (ex nihilo). The creator of the universe would have to be outside of time and space. A being that has these abilities to do this would be All-powerful. I believe that being to be God; therefore, God is All-powerful.
If I understand correctly, you claim that God is NOT all-powerful, but a God of Love.

Please provide specific answers to the following:

Who created the universe?
How did your God come into existence?
Where is the proof for your God of Love?


Who created the universe? I don't know. Neither do you or scientists.
How did your God come into existence? Existentially. Through my human consciousness that I am valued and worthy because I have free will - I can make decisions. My value rests on my ability to make decisions and not dependent on someone else's will.
Where is the proof for your God of Love? Jesus on the cross and His resurrection


The resurrection of Jesus from the dead is the proof of the all-powerful God that you have been searching for over this entire thread.
UBBY
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JXL said:

UBBY said:

Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
God does not enslave His children. We are allowed free will, to do good if we will and evil if we so will.

I do wonder why you seek to blame God for human acts of evil?


He receives praise when good things happen. I would assume he would take blame when bad things happen also.

He allows these things to happen. He knows everything that will happen in the future does he not?

If you were God would you allow children to be murdered and raped?


How would you prevent that from happening while preserving free will?
That's a good question and a difficult one to answer. You wouldn't have complete free will. Or the creator could modify what constitutes as free will.
TexasScientist
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Coke Bear said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?
If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.
D. C. Bear
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TexasScientist said:

Coke Bear said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?
If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.


We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.
Coke Bear
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I appreciate your response.
Waco1947 said:

Who created the universe? I don't know. Neither do you or scientists.
The cosmological argument states that anything that begins to exist must have a creator.
The universe began to exist; therefore, it must have a creator.
That creator must be outside of time and space. We(Christians, Jews, and Muslims) call that creator God (who is all-powerful)
Waco1947 said:

How did your God come into existence? Existentially. Through my human consciousness that I am valued and worthy because I have free will - I can make decisions. My value rests on my ability to make decisions and not dependent on someone else's will.
I look forward to your explanation tomorrow.
Waco1947 said:

Where is the proof for your God of Love? Jesus on the cross and His resurrection
How does a God that is not all-powerful resurrect Himself? Conquering death with a Glorified body after a few days in a tomb is the greatest miracle of all-time. It would take an all-powerful being to do that.
Oldbear83
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UBBY said:

JXL said:

UBBY said:

Oldbear83 said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
God does not enslave His children. We are allowed free will, to do good if we will and evil if we so will.

I do wonder why you seek to blame God for human acts of evil?


He receives praise when good things happen. I would assume he would take blame when bad things happen also.

He allows these things to happen. He knows everything that will happen in the future does he not?

If you were God would you allow children to be murdered and raped?


How would you prevent that from happening while preserving free will?
That's a good question and a difficult one to answer. You wouldn't have complete free will. Or the creator could modify what constitutes as free will.
Walk that through.

Let's say you decide you want to ban murder and rape. We can all agree those are bad, right?

So boom, if we are playing god now no one can murder or rape anyone. Problem is, you have limited free will at the decision level, so while you have eliminated something very bad, you took something of the human spirit away to do it.

But worse, you still have problems, No more murder or rape, but there is still robbery and assault and political corruption. I expect you'd want to get rid of those, right?

So boom, now everyone not only won't commit crimes or do something unethical, they cannot commit crimes or do anything unethical. So humanity has less suffering but even less freedom.

Along the way, to get a world where no one does anything that hurts someone else, you will have eliminated not only violence, but any kind of discrimination. No one can even think in a way that is out of line with what you decide is the right way to think. That's Stalin's wet dream, you know, but it's all for the Greater Good.

But turns out there is still suffering going on. Even without murder, people still die, from disease and accidents and natural disaster. People still suffer from addictions and bad choices too.

So let's say you make those go away. No one suffers in any way, anymore.

Of course, you'd have to change some laws of nature to make this work. For one thing, no one dying means you need somewhere for all those extra people to live. No one going hungry and no one even thinking badly of another human, those require, well, you would basically have to make all humans slaves to the greater good, no one able to really achieve more than anyone else or be greater than anyone else, in the name of a perfectly equal equity for all.

What's more, there would be no such thing as virtue or honor, anymore. If everyone has enough food, there is no one who will stand out for feeding the hungry, when no one is sick or alone, no one stands out for visiting the sick and the lonely. If no one suffers injustice, no one stands out as a hero for protecting the weak and the unprivileged. If everyone is the same, no one does anything heroic or noble.

Mankind would become vapid, useless except as a large group of pets for their god.

One thing I have seen in my life, that speaks to the presence of God, is how many people go out of their way to protect the innocent, to help the homeless, to feed the hungry, to right wrongs and defend those who need help. I believe one reason we live in a world of suffering, is so we learn to do something to help those who suffer. One reason we go through bad things, is so we can tell someone honestly that we have been through the same thing, and so we know what they are feeling, and we honestly know how to help.

Goodness is a choice made by people who decide they want to solve problems one person at a time.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Coke Bear
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TexasScientist said:

If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen?
Bad things happen because there's evil in the world. God is ALL good. He cannot cause evil to happen. He allows evil to happen with His permissive will.
TexasScientist said:

We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality.
God created the world In Statu Viae, in a state of journeying toward perfection. He gave our first parents paradise, but they fell. They had free will to choose what they wanted to do.

God gives us a lifetime to make the decision (free will) as to whether we would like to spend eternity with him or not. We have it better than the angels. They got one instance to make that choice. We fail in his eyes continually; however, he always gives us a chance to repent. He keeps giving us this opportunity right up to our death to make that choice.

TexasScientist said:

If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.
I'm really sorry for what ever happened in your life to cause you to believe this. I don't hear a great deal of joy here.
Waco1947
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If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.
Waco1947
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

god in a box, that's what Waco wants.

The real God in heaven, Waco denies.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Coke Bear
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Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?


Waco1947
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Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?



All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.
Waco1947
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?



All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.
Waco denies God, so it is no surprise he denies Scripture,

That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
JXL
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Waco1947 said:

Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?



All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.


As you have been previously told (several times), no one is predestined for Hell.
Coke Bear
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Waco1947 said:

All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.
Are you saying that Jesus is wrong about hell?

In one way you are correct ... you have made up your God. Your philosophy has been proven incorrect and contradictory time and time again on this site. I pray for you daily to reject this false theism. I hope others on here pray for you as well.
Waco1947
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JXL said:

Waco1947 said:

Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?



All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.


As you have been previously told (several times), no one is predestined for Hell.
Then why does An All Knowing God create Alice knowing full well she will be tormented in your hell?
Waco1947
Oldbear83
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Waco1947 said:

JXL said:

Waco1947 said:

Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?



All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.


As you have been previously told (several times), no one is predestined for Hell.
Then why does An All Knowing God create Alice knowing full well she will be tormented in your hell?
You are still refusing to learn the truth, Waco.

Your idol blinds you and fills you with hate for the Lord.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Waco1947
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Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.
Are you saying that Jesus is wrong about hell?

In one way you are correct ... you have made up your God. Your philosophy has been proven incorrect and contradictory time and time again on this site. I pray for you daily to reject this false theism. I hope others on here pray for you as well.
I made up my by existentialism - that is this real world- and process philosophy grounded in science. My theism is not "made up" but grounded in life and science and as reality itself in love.
Your theism is based on a made up magical, supernatural myth of an ancient people.
However as in all myths these two Three Truths the scripture can be grounded in reality God is spiritual, we can make decisions which proves our worth and God is love.
Those three truths are grounded in the truth behind the myth. God is spiritual, love, and our very existence proves our worth. And as importantly the secular world can believe them too. It's a new theism.
The old theism requires us to suspend our belief in matter, forces, mathematics and history and to doubt our own free will

Waco1947
Waco1947
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Oldbear83 said:

Waco1947 said:

JXL said:

Waco1947 said:

Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?



All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.


As you have been previously told (several times), no one is predestined for Hell.
Then why does An All Knowing God create Alice knowing full well she will be tormented in your hell?
You are still refusing to learn the truth, Waco.

Your idol blinds you and fills you with hate for the Lord.

Trick question: What is truth?
2nd trick question: How can a Christian like myself "hate the Lord" when I have declared time and again "God is love?"
Jesus is rather clear about a house cannot be divid
Matthew " Any kingdom where people fight each other will end up ruined. And a town or family that fights will soon destroy itself. 26 So if Satan fights against himself, how can his kingdom last? 27 If I use the power of Beelzebul to force out demons, whose power do your own followers use to force them out? Your followers are the ones who will judge you. 28 But when I force out demons by the power of God's Spirit, it proves that God's kingdom has already come to you. 29 How can anyone break into a strong man's house and steal his things, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can take everything."
How can your hate for me force out my God's love for me.
God is love is not a statement of hate.
Waco1947
Canada2017
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Waco1947 said:

Oldbear83 said:

Waco1947 said:

JXL said:

Waco1947 said:

Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?



All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.


As you have been previously told (several times), no one is predestined for Hell.
Then why does An All Knowing God create Alice knowing full well she will be tormented in your hell?
You are still refusing to learn the truth, Waco.

Your idol blinds you and fills you with hate for the Lord.

Trick question: What is truth?
2nd trick question: How can a Christian like myself "hate the Lord" when I have declared time and again "God is love?"
Jesus is rather clear about a house cannot be divid
Matthew " Any kingdom where people fight each other will end up ruined. And a town or family that fights will soon destroy itself. 26 So if Satan fights against himself, how can his kingdom last? 27 If I use the power of Beelzebul to force out demons, whose power do your own followers use to force them out? Your followers are the ones who will judge you. 28 But when I force out demons by the power of God's Spirit, it proves that God's kingdom has already come to you. 29 How can anyone break into a strong man's house and steal his things, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can take everything."
How can your hate for me force out my God's love for me.
God is love is not a statement of hate.


You issue false statements constantly old snake .

On an internet message board such foolishness is of no consequence.

But if you have played your little 'minister' charade with innocent/ vulnerable people out in the real world.....then no doubt you have damaged many .
Oldbear83
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If your faith is "grounded in science" it is not faith but humanism.

Thus endeth the lesson.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
JXL
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Waco1947 said:

JXL said:

Waco1947 said:

Coke Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

If God knows all and creates Alice and she decides against God then she goes to hell.
Why would a loving God create a person God knows is going to hell to suffer for all eternity. That's a damn cruel God.
It's an old theism. Time for a new existential, secular theism.

As you said, she decided against God. God gave Alice what she wanted. God loves her that much. Forcing her to be with Him is cruel.

The new existential theism should ask Jesus about:

Matthew 13:42 - And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43 - If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Why should I trust some made-up theism that's about 100 years old just because you have issues, when I have a Church that was founded by Jesus?



All those quotes reflect an old theism. Alice still goes to hell and God knew it the moment she was born. That is a malicious God and not mine.


As you have been previously told (several times), no one is predestined for Hell.
Then why does An All Knowing God create Alice knowing full well she will be tormented in your hell?


Like I told you the last time we had this exact same conversation, Alice is not predestined for Hell. She had free will to make her own choices.
TexasScientist
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D. C. Bear said:

TexasScientist said:

Coke Bear said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?
If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.


We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.
Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?
JXL
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TexasScientist said:

D. C. Bear said:

TexasScientist said:

Coke Bear said:

UBBY said:

If God is love and all powerful why does he allow children to be raped and murdered?
UBBY I'll assume that your question was asked out of genuine interest, not just being snarky, so I'll do my best to give a fair response

God give all free will. Unfortunately, people use their free will to inflict harm on others. The GREATEST harm that man ever inflicted was that we (mankind) killed God (Jesus). He never committed a sin, yet He was scourged, beaten, and crucified to death. Having said that, an even GREATER good came from that the salvation of all souls the promise of eternal life with Him in Heaven.

A greater good will come out of all suffering. As parents, most of us have allowed people to stick sharp objects into our infant children's bodies. Our toddler does not understand at that moment that a nurse just injected them with a vaccine to prevent them from contracting a life-threatening illness.

We may not ever know what it is on this side of the veil why people endured great suffering on earth. One of the only comforts that I can take away is to now that in Heaven; there will be only joy, no suffering.

Finally, as a corollary to your question if there is NO God, why do good things happen, like miraculous cures from cancer or people surviving auto accidents with no injury?
If you're going to give 'god' credit for good things, then you have to give him credit for bad things. If there is a god, why do bad things happen? We live in an universe of chaos, without distinction of good or bad. You look forward to only joy and happiness in 'heaven.' This begs the question, if there is a loving and just god who is creating a heaven, why wouldn't he create it to begin with, and place people there to begin with, instead of creating something imperfect and flawed from the standpoint of sustaining life and preventing unnecessary suffering of cognizant and self aware beings. The answer is obvious and clear to anyone who objectively considers reality. If there were a god as you describe, then he would be immoral and wicked.


We do not live in a universe of chaos on a physical level, nor do we live in a moral world of chaos without distinction of good or bad.

Insofar as the universe was created by God. everything in it can be credited to God. So what? You don't like the way God created the universe, and your response to that is to conclude that there is no God because "bad things" happen. In your argument, any suffering at all, from the pain of a paper cut to the sun in your eyes is conclusive evidence that there is no God. That doesn't hold up real well.
Actually it holds up very well. You haven't explained why a god of love would create a universe that is hostile to life, and is full of pain and suffering for sentient beings. If his goal is to create a utopian heaven somewhere, then why didn't he create that to begin with, create everyone to be in the state they will be in heaven, and skip all the rest? Unless, your god is evil and has a sadistic side to him. Oh, wait, that seems to fit the god described in the OT, NT, and the Quran? Your god doesn't make sense, and doesn't hold up, and is essentially no different than any other god postulated by any other religion, past or present. Even the the various sects and cults of Christianity do not agree on the tenets and beliefs of what it means to be a Christian. Beside that, there is no objective evidence that any such god exists. In fact, objective reality indicates that there is no such god, and that there is no need for any such god to explain the existence of anything. Isn't your belief irrational and illogical?


The universe you describe is not compatible with free will.
 
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