Ken Starr's capacity to give Baylor a black eye and keep it black is undiminished.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/19/sports/starr-baylor.html

Shortly after his arrival and before trouble erupted with the football team, Mr. Starr hired a consulting firm, Margolis Healy, that specializes in campus security to scrutinize Baylor's handling of sexual assaults, which were occurring at a disturbing rate. He said in an interview with The Texas Tribune that this report found the university was complying with Title IX. And he added that sexual assault was not "endemic" to the university.

But a copy of this still-confidential report reviewed by The New York Times contradicts Mr. Starr's claims. The often devastating text revealed that Baylor was not complying with the demands of Title IX, the code of the civil rights law that governs education.

The Margolis Healy consultants found Baylor officials had ignored federal regulations and heaped Title IX responsibilities on officials who already had full-time jobs. Deans and department chairs and counselors lacked required training in how to handle dating violence, and the report found a single "overwhelmed" investigator who could not "realistically" comply with federal law. The university's sexual misconduct policy did not define sexual consent and focused instead on the woman's behavior in igniting problems. [Here I would like to refer readers of this excerpt to the Burqa thread currently trending in this queue.] The Baylor and Waco police neglected to share information and "underreported sexual assaults."

Administrators, the report stated, resisted addressing "sex and alcohol in any way." The report found that Baylor had sidestepped scandal "based to a certain extent on luck."

How Ken Starr deals with damning testimony - the end of the article linked above. Does anything know what actually aired on KWTX?

In November 2016, after his firing, Mr. Starr sat for an interview with the television station KWTX. Its reporter asked Mr. Starr about an email that a woman who said she was raped had sent to him. It bore the subject line: "I was raped at Baylor."

The woman had told ESPN's "Outside the Lines" that he had never responded to her email.
Did you see this email? a reporter asked Mr. Starr.

Mr. Starr looked at the camera and said: "I honestly may have. I'm not denying that I saw it."

At this point, a voice can be heard interrupting off-camera. Merrie Spaeth, whom Mr. Starr had introduced as a family friend, asked the news director not to use that part of the interview. Then she directed Mr. Starr to follow her out of the room. He returned and took a seat and changed his answer:

"I'm honestly going to say I have no recollection of that."

With that, he turned to Ms. Spaeth who works with a crisis communications public relations firm and served in the Reagan White House and asked, "Is that O.K.?"

"Don't' look at me," she instructed.

Mr. Starr turned back to the reporter and amended his answer a third time: "I honestly have no recollection of seeing such an email, and I believe that I would remember seeing such an email."

Take a close look at the Board that hired Starr in the first place. It was all politics. I have no doubt we had some football players who assaulted women. I have no doubt a few of those women at Baylor were very naive. Baylor needed to focus on what is best for Baylor and that was a total cleaning of the house, not just the football program. It didn't happen.

Since we still hear about the basketball death some two decades later do not expect the football mess to go away in the ensuing decades.

Stranger said:

---

Starr and Ian, more so than Briles, are responsible for the shame and ridicule brought upon Baylor University. Starr just needs to go away somewhere.

---

This story makes it abundantly clear that the problems re: sexual assault at Baylor did not start (or end) with Ken Starr. And that they weren't limited to the football team.

Starr was ineffectual and leaned whichever way the political wind was blowing. That's what he's done throughout his career. He is the prince and prophet of plausible deniability.

One big issue is that, in evangelical culture, women are blamed for their own sexual assaults. They're also blamed if they get pregnant. Or if they have consensual sex and don't get pregnant. As if those assaults were self-inflicted. And the pregnancies immaculate conceptions. And the consensual sex acts depended solely on the women's consent. Until the male leaders in evangelical congregations stop treating women as the sexual gatekeepers and blaming them solely, whether they are assaulted or a consensual partner (when the man involved also consented), these problems will continue.

After reading this article, I can't imagine how any parent with daughters would send them to Baylor.

Press is going to attack every attorney on Trump's side during this impeachment. That is what they do. Unfortunately Baylor will be drug they the mud again because of it. Horrible timing with the NCAA stuff still looming.

Jinx 2 said:

---

Stranger said:

---

Starr and Ian, more so than Briles, are responsible for the shame and ridicule brought upon Baylor University. Starr just needs to go away somewhere.

---

This story makes it abundantly clear that the problems re: sexual assault at Baylor did not start (or end) with Ken Starr. And that they weren't limited to the football team.

Starr was ineffectual and leaned whichever way the political wind was blowing. That's what he's done throughout his career. He is the prince and prophet of plausible deniability.

One big issue is that, in evangelical culture, women are blamed for their own sexual assaults. They're also blamed if they get pregnant. Or if they have consensual sex and don't get pregnant. As if those assaults were self-inflicted. And the pregnancies immaculate conceptions. And the consensual sex acts depended solely on the women's consent. Until the male leaders in evangelical congregations stop treating women as the sexual gatekeepers and blaming them solely, whether they are assaulted or a consensual partner (when the man involved also consented), these problems will continue.

After reading this article, I can't imagine how any parent with daughters would send them to Baylor.

---

Oh good grief. Who is blaming women for everything? It takes two to get pregnant. Women like you tend to just blame the women. Do women need to be extra careful when having sex? Yes, because they are the ones that are going to get pregnant...so yes, they bear an extra responsibility or at least an extra thought or two before saying yes. It's called biology...and science. Did you actually attend school?

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Stranger said:

---

Starr and Ian, more so than Briles, are responsible for the shame and ridicule brought upon Baylor University. Starr just needs to go away somewhere.

---

This story makes it abundantly clear that the problems re: sexual assault at Baylor did not start (or end) with Ken Starr. And that they weren't limited to the football team.

Starr was ineffectual and leaned whichever way the political wind was blowing. That's what he's done throughout his career. He is the prince and prophet of plausible deniability.

One big issue is that, in evangelical culture, women are blamed for their own sexual assaults. They're also blamed if they get pregnant. Or if they have consensual sex and don't get pregnant. As if those assaults were self-inflicted. And the pregnancies immaculate conceptions. And the consensual sex acts depended solely on the women's consent. Until the male leaders in evangelical congregations stop treating women as the sexual gatekeepers and blaming them solely, whether they are assaulted or a consensual partner (when the man involved also consented), these problems will continue.

After reading this article, I can't imagine how any parent with daughters would send them to Baylor.

---

Jinx, I encourage you to never send children to Baylor.

If you are going to believe an attorney who says "Starr presided over Baylor at a time when hundreds of young women were assaulted" which is patently untrue, you have no business sending kids to Baylor or being involved with Baylor in any way.

Yes, Starr was asleep at the wheel. Yes, Baylor did not comply with Title IX at the same time 80% of universities also did not comply with Title IX and did not have full-time staff. Yes, Baylor has had a Baptist view of sex and it is either judgmental or hands-off.

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

As a Baptist, I have never had the thought that a woman getting pregnant is "all her fault" which is what Jinx said.

I went back and read the article. I posted earlier after just reading a few paragraphs. Now I'm really pissed. It was as suspected. Those who tried were fired. The culprits are still running the place.

Patty Crawford quote follows...

Quote:

---

"When I got there, Baylor, a school older than the state of Texas, did not have a single Title IX file," she said. "There is a group of faculty and administrators who are working very hard to get across that Title IX and diversity initiative are not biblical."

She eventually quit in disgust, but only after she established protocols and tabulated 417 allegations of sexual assault and harassment over several years, 90 percent of which had nothing to do with athletics.

"It was utterly overwhelming," she said. "And football was definitely not the worst."

She said that Mr. Starr was not among those who bridled at a federal role and that he said he wanted the school to comply with laws. But he did not shy from asserting the school's religious injunctions. He emphasized after he left Baylor that the university's prohibitions against premarital and gay sex were "Orthodox Christian doctrine" and "those are our values and we do not apologize."

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Stranger said:

---

Starr and Ian, more so than Briles, are responsible for the shame and ridicule brought upon Baylor University. Starr just needs to go away somewhere.

---

This story makes it abundantly clear that the problems re: sexual assault at Baylor did not start (or end) with Ken Starr. And that they weren't limited to the football team.

Starr was ineffectual and leaned whichever way the political wind was blowing. That's what he's done throughout his career. He is the prince and prophet of plausible deniability.

One big issue is that, in evangelical culture, women are blamed for their own sexual assaults. They're also blamed if they get pregnant. Or if they have consensual sex and don't get pregnant. As if those assaults were self-inflicted. And the pregnancies immaculate conceptions. And the consensual sex acts depended solely on the women's consent. Until the male leaders in evangelical congregations stop treating women as the sexual gatekeepers and blaming them solely, whether they are assaulted or a consensual partner (when the man involved also consented), these problems will continue.

After reading this article, I can't imagine how any parent with daughters would send them to Baylor.

---

Jinx, I encourage you to never send children to Baylor.

If you are going to believe an attorney who says "Starr presided over Baylor at a time when hundreds of young women were assaulted" which is patently untrue, you have no business sending kids to Baylor or being involved with Baylor in any way.

Yes, Starr was asleep at the wheel. Yes, Baylor did not comply with Title IX at the same time 80% of universities also did not comply with Title IX and did not have full-time staff. Yes, Baylor has had a Baptist view of sex and it is either judgmental or hands-off.

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/14675790/baylor-officials-accused-failing-investigate-sexual-assaults-fully-adequately-providing-support-alleged-victims

During the first rape, Tanya was shoved into the muddy ground before her pants were pulled down. After it was over, the Baylor football player allowed her to get up and walk away, but then he pushed her, face forward, into a metal fence and raped her again.

He disappeared after handing Tanya her shirt back. Dazed, Tanya made her way back into the party, found her friends, and told one of them, "I think I was just raped."

Once at the hospital, in Waco, Texas, Tanya recounted for Waco police and a nurse what had happened: A Baylor University football player named Tevin Elliott had raped her. The defensive end would end up arrested by Waco police, charged with sexually assaulting Tanya, kicked off the football team and expelled.

Days later, Tanya said she went to Baylor's campus police department, asking officers if there was anything they could do for her, because she'd been assaulted by a fellow student. She didn't ask for anything specific, but she thought maybe a campus escort or security could be provided, because Elliott remained in Waco.
There is nothing we can do, because the assault happened off campus.

A few days later, she said she contacted Baylor's student health center, seeking counseling.

There is no one who can see you now. You could, though, put your name on a waiting list. Maybe you should see someone off campus.

With final exams coming up and Tanya's schoolwork already beginning to suffer, her mother called Baylor's academic services group for assistance.

Sorry. No resources are available. Even "if a plane falls on your daughter, there's nothing we can do to help you."

Tanya, a Baylor freshman at the time, was one of five women who reported to police that they were either raped or assaulted -- in incidents from October 2009 to April 2012 -- by Elliott, who was convicted on two counts of sexual assault in January 2014 for the incident involving Tanya.

Despite being a private school, Baylor is required by federal law -- Title IX -- to thoroughly investigate allegations of sexual violence, and provide security, counseling services and academic help to those who report assaults. Part of the law's goal is to help keep victims in school.

Yet an investigation by Outside the Lines found several examples in Tanya's case, and others at Baylor, in which school officials either failed to investigate, or adequately investigate, allegations of sexual violence. In many cases, officials did not provide support to those who reported assaults. Moreover, it took Baylor more than three years to comply with a federal directive: In April 2011, the U.S. Department of Education sent a letter to all colleges and universities outlining their responsibilities under Title IX, including the need for each school to have a Title IX coordinator. Baylor didn't hire a full-time coordinator until fall 2014.

"They didn't just not respond; they responded by turning me away and telling me that it was not possible for me to receive help from them," said Tanya, whose identity is being kept private by Outside the Lines because she was the victim of a sexual assault.

Tanya's story is similar to others at Baylor and an array of universities nationwide; the U.S. Department of Education is investigating complaints against 161 institutions for their handling of sexual violence investigations. In a more recent Baylor case, university officials agreed to a monetary settlement with another victim of a football player's assault. Defensive end Sam Ukwuachu was convicted of sexual assault in August after a Baylor soccer player reported to Waco police that he'd assaulted her in October 2013. During Ukwuachu's trial, it was disclosed that Baylor officials had conducted an internal investigation into the assault complaint and cleared him of any wrongdoing.

"I wouldn't call it an investigation," said McLennan County Assistant District Attorney Hilary LaBorde, who prosecuted the Elliott and Ukwuachu cases in court. "They didn't have someone that seemed to know anything about how college rape occurs."

Edmond Bear said:

---

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Fifth-rape-reported-to-Baylor-police-in-two-months-president-addresses-students-505317231.html

WACO, Texas (KWTX) According to the Baylor police crime log, the university has received another allegation of campus-sexual assault/rape.

The log states, the alleged rape occurred on Jan. 26 at 11th Street Flat, off-campus housing, and was reported to campus police on Jan. 30. just before 3 p.m.

With regards to the off-campus incident, the university says with multiple ways of reporting, "A person's way of reporting might reflect their decision to not involve law enforcement at this time, and under Title IX they have a right to do so."

If they report it to the Title IX Office, they are informed of their rights and can decide at a later date if they would like to move forward with a criminal investigation.

The report of a fifth rape comes days after three campus-sexual assault/rapes were reported to have occurred at South Russell Hall on campus.

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Fifth-rape-reported-to-Baylor-police-in-two-months-president-addresses-students-505317231.html

WACO, Texas (KWTX) According to the Baylor police crime log, the university has received another allegation of campus-sexual assault/rape.

The log states, the alleged rape occurred on Jan. 26 at 11th Street Flat, off-campus housing, and was reported to campus police on Jan. 30. just before 3 p.m.

With regards to the off-campus incident, the university says with multiple ways of reporting, "A person's way of reporting might reflect their decision to not involve law enforcement at this time, and under Title IX they have a right to do so."

If they report it to the Title IX Office, they are informed of their rights and can decide at a later date if they would like to move forward with a criminal investigation.

The report of a fifth rape comes days after three campus-sexual assault/rapes were reported to have occurred at South Russell Hall on campus.

---

It's ridiculous to hold a university responsible for what happens OFF campus.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/2017/03/24/new-details-emerge-from-rape-survey-of-ut-students/

https://news.utexas.edu/2015/09/21/campus-sexual-assault-survey-details-prevalence-at-ut-austin/

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas/2018/06/29/sexual-assault-survivors-say-texas-am-chose-its-brand-over-justice/

https://www.statesman.com/news/20191002/texas-state-significantly-underreported-sexual-assaults-in-past-years

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2014/11/03/tcu-student-reported-rape-at-campus-dorm/

Jinx is right. It is only happening at Baylor.

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Fifth-rape-reported-to-Baylor-police-in-two-months-president-addresses-students-505317231.html

WACO, Texas (KWTX) According to the Baylor police crime log, the university has received another allegation of campus-sexual assault/rape.

The log states, the alleged rape occurred on Jan. 26 at 11th Street Flat, off-campus housing, and was reported to campus police on Jan. 30. just before 3 p.m.

With regards to the off-campus incident, the university says with multiple ways of reporting, "A person's way of reporting might reflect their decision to not involve law enforcement at this time, and under Title IX they have a right to do so."

If they report it to the Title IX Office, they are informed of their rights and can decide at a later date if they would like to move forward with a criminal investigation.

The report of a fifth rape comes days after three campus-sexual assault/rapes were reported to have occurred at South Russell Hall on campus.

---

Baylor is a small city of 23,000 students, professors, and admin. Unfortunately, when you gather that many people together there are terrible things that happen.

You are missing the point that the highest causal indicators of sexual assault are less prevalent at Baylor than other universities. They exist at Baylor but not to the degree of other universities.

If a parent should not send their daughter to Baylor, they shouldn't send them anywhere. Using your logic, we should lock all of our daughters in closets.

TDS thread

Take away TDS and no story here

Jinx 2 said:

---

Starr was ineffectual and leaned whichever way the political wind was blowing. That's what he's done throughout his career. He is the prince and prophet of plausible deniability.

---

Respectfully disagree

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Fifth-rape-reported-to-Baylor-police-in-two-months-president-addresses-students-505317231.html

WACO, Texas (KWTX) According to the Baylor police crime log, the university has received another allegation of campus-sexual assault/rape.

The log states, the alleged rape occurred on Jan. 26 at 11th Street Flat, off-campus housing, and was reported to campus police on Jan. 30. just before 3 p.m.

With regards to the off-campus incident, the university says with multiple ways of reporting, "A person's way of reporting might reflect their decision to not involve law enforcement at this time, and under Title IX they have a right to do so."

If they report it to the Title IX Office, they are informed of their rights and can decide at a later date if they would like to move forward with a criminal investigation.

The report of a fifth rape comes days after three campus-sexual assault/rapes were reported to have occurred at South Russell Hall on campus.

---

Baylor is a small city of 23,000 students, professors, and admin. Unfortunately, when you gather that many people together there are terrible things that happen.

You are missing the point that the highest causal indicators of sexual assault are less prevalent at Baylor than other universities. They exist at Baylor but not to the degree of other universities.

If a parent should not send their daughter to Baylor, they shouldn't send them anywhere. Using your logic, we should lock all of our daughters in closets.

---

The University of Montana was famously flagged as a rape school by Jon Krakauer (who wrote Under the Banner of Heaven about how Mormon culture made Elizabeth Smartt more vulnerable to kidnaping and rape). The University of Montana made a similar argument to the one you're making, that rape and sexual assault happened at all schools.

But they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session before they can register for classes: https://inthesetimes.com/article/21104/University-Montana-rape-sexual-assault-experiment-education-training

Baylor probably wouldn't do this, because part of the training is understanding what constitutes "consent," and Baylor does not want to acknowledge that premarital sex, consensual or not, occurs.

I was at Baylor in the late 1970s through 1980. I can assure you that, even 40 years ago, both consensual and non-consensual sex occurred. Often. Professor Armistead's wife worked at Planning Parenthood then and talked about how often she saw Baylor girls seeking birth control and abortions. It was a lot less shameful for a girl to have a quiet abortion than it was to have a very public pregnancy and be forever shamed for it at your school, in your church and in your hometown. Parents were often willing supporters. Sometimes boyfriends were.

Women in my day were unlikely to report a rape because they were either blamed by others or, equally common, blamed themselves (for drinking, for passing out, for walking home alone, for being in their apartment or dorm room alone, for going into a dorm room with a guy, whatever). What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

I didn't drink at all during undergrad--I've always hated beer and I sure wasn't going to drink that nasty trash can punch of everclear and Hawaiian Punch that was the beverage of choice at parties, often served in a borrowed McDonald's slushy machine. But if I had, there was always a party where I could have had all the free alcohol I wanted. Can't imagine that's changed in the last 40 years.

Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe. School administrators don't want to report events like sexual assaults, including those where obvious criminal misconduct occurred, because it contradicts the narrative that Baylor is safer and sexual assaults are less likely to occur there. One result is that women who were assaulted and reported it to administrators hoping for help and counseling were treated with callous disregard. The NYTimes reported one girl, a freshman nursing student, being told that her rape was not an excuse for finding herself unable to focus on her studies--that, as a nurse, she would be dealing with traumatic events all the time. Another girl was told that, by reporting a rape, SHE might be expelled for premarital sex. None of this is in the least defensible.

The major difference between my era and now appears to be that we knew better than to report a rape to authorities. We knew we would inevitably be blamed because the "asking for it" narrative was still very popular well into the 1990s. It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault. A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens whose assault is an administrative inconvenience rather than a shame and a tragedy.

Osodecentx said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Starr was ineffectual and leaned whichever way the political wind was blowing. That's what he's done throughout his career. He is the prince and prophet of plausible deniability.

---

Respectfully disagree

---

I've grown to be disrespectful of the "Jinx" ilks here

They are a threat to end our country as we know it

They are the enemy therefore and I know my enemies

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Fifth-rape-reported-to-Baylor-police-in-two-months-president-addresses-students-505317231.html

WACO, Texas (KWTX) According to the Baylor police crime log, the university has received another allegation of campus-sexual assault/rape.

The log states, the alleged rape occurred on Jan. 26 at 11th Street Flat, off-campus housing, and was reported to campus police on Jan. 30. just before 3 p.m.

With regards to the off-campus incident, the university says with multiple ways of reporting, "A person's way of reporting might reflect their decision to not involve law enforcement at this time, and under Title IX they have a right to do so."

If they report it to the Title IX Office, they are informed of their rights and can decide at a later date if they would like to move forward with a criminal investigation.

The report of a fifth rape comes days after three campus-sexual assault/rapes were reported to have occurred at South Russell Hall on campus.

---

Baylor is a small city of 23,000 students, professors, and admin. Unfortunately, when you gather that many people together there are terrible things that happen.

You are missing the point that the highest causal indicators of sexual assault are less prevalent at Baylor than other universities. They exist at Baylor but not to the degree of other universities.

If a parent should not send their daughter to Baylor, they shouldn't send them anywhere. Using your logic, we should lock all of our daughters in closets.

---

The University of Montana was famously flagged as a rape school by Jon Krakauer (who wrote Under the Banner of Heaven about how Mormon culture made Elizabeth Smartt more vulnerable to kidnaping and rape). The University of Montana made a similar argument to the one you're making, that rape and sexual assault happened at all schools.

But they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session before they can register for classes: https://inthesetimes.com/article/21104/University-Montana-rape-sexual-assault-experiment-education-training

Baylor probably wouldn't do this, because part of the training is understanding what constitutes "consent," and Baylor does not want to acknowledge that premarital sex, consensual or not, occurs.

I was at Baylor in the late 1970s through 1980. I can assure you that, even 40 years ago, both consensual and non-consensual sex occurred. Often. Professor Armistead's wife worked at Planning Parenthood then and talked about how often she saw Baylor girls seeking birth control and abortions. It was a lot less shameful for a girl to have a quiet abortion than it was to have a very public pregnancy and be forever shamed for it at your school, in your church and in your hometown. Parents were often willing supporters. Sometimes boyfriends were.

Women in my day were unlikely to report a rape because they were either blamed by others or, equally common, blamed themselves (for drinking, for passing out, for walking home alone, for being in their apartment or dorm room alone, for going into a dorm room with a guy, whatever). What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

I didn't drink at all during undergrad--I've always hated beer and I sure wasn't going to drink that nasty trash can punch of everclear and Hawaiian Punch that was the beverage of choice at parties, often served in a borrowed McDonald's slushy machine. But if I had, there was always a party where I could have had all the free alcohol I wanted. Can't imagine that's changed in the last 40 years.

Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe. School administrators don't want to report events like sexual assaults, including those where obvious criminal misconduct occurred, because it contradicts the narrative that Baylor is safer and sexual assaults are less likely to occur there. One result is that women who were assaulted and reported it to administrators hoping for help and counseling were treated with callous disregard. The NYTimes reported one girl, a freshman nursing student, being told that her rape was not an excuse for finding herself unable to focus on her studies--that, as a nurse, she would be dealing with traumatic events all the time. Another girl was told that, by reporting a rape, SHE might be expelled for premarital sex. None of this is in the least defensible.

The major difference between my era and now appears to be that we knew better than to report a rape to authorities. We knew we would inevitably be blamed because the "asking for it" narrative was still very popular well into the 1990s. It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault. A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens whose assault is an administrative inconvenience rather than a shame and a tragedy.

---

You are making some assumptions here that are untrue:

Jinx: ...they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session...

My daughter at Baylor was required to take online training about sexual assault. Baylor also heavily promotes the 'It's On Us' campaign which encourages students and administrators to say something about sexual assault.

Jinx: Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe.

No one is suggesting it is more safe for these reasons. They are suggesting it is more safe because Baylor has lower levels of alcohol and drug use than its peer universities. Alcohol and drug use are strong correlating indicators of sexual assault.

Jinx: It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault.

This may have been true prior to the sexual assault scandal but is not true today.

Jinx: A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens

The Baylor student population is 60/40 women. And, the university is run by women. It is one of the few universities that heavily emphasizes women's sports. Women are not treated as second class citizens.



Finally:
....What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

This is still good advice. Bad people are still bad people no matter how much education any institution attempts. And, Baylor is a small city of 27,000 people which will have some percent of bad people.

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

The University of Montana was famously flagged as a rape school by Jon Krakauer (who wrote Under the Banner of Heaven about how Mormon culture made Elizabeth Smartt more vulnerable to kidnaping and rape). The University of Montana made a similar argument to the one you're making, that rape and sexual assault happened at all schools.

But they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session before they can register for classes: https://inthesetimes.com/article/21104/University-Montana-rape-sexual-assault-experiment-education-training

Baylor probably wouldn't do this, because part of the training is understanding what constitutes "consent," and Baylor does not want to acknowledge that premarital sex, consensual or not, occurs.

I was at Baylor in the late 1970s through 1980. I can assure you that, even 40 years ago, both consensual and non-consensual sex occurred. Often. Professor Armistead's wife worked at Planning Parenthood then and talked about how often she saw Baylor girls seeking birth control and abortions. It was a lot less shameful for a girl to have a quiet abortion than it was to have a very public pregnancy and be forever shamed for it at your school, in your church and in your hometown. Parents were often willing supporters. Sometimes boyfriends were.

Women in my day were unlikely to report a rape because they were either blamed by others or, equally common, blamed themselves (for drinking, for passing out, for walking home alone, for being in their apartment or dorm room alone, for going into a dorm room with a guy, whatever). What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

I didn't drink at all during undergrad--I've always hated beer and I sure wasn't going to drink that nasty trash can punch of everclear and Hawaiian Punch that was the beverage of choice at parties, often served in a borrowed McDonald's slushy machine. But if I had, there was always a party where I could have had all the free alcohol I wanted. Can't imagine that's changed in the last 40 years.

Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe. School administrators don't want to report events like sexual assaults, including those where obvious criminal misconduct occurred, because it contradicts the narrative that Baylor is safer and sexual assaults are less likely to occur there. One result is that women who were assaulted and reported it to administrators hoping for help and counseling were treated with callous disregard. The NYTimes reported one girl, a freshman nursing student, being told that her rape was not an excuse for finding herself unable to focus on her studies--that, as a nurse, she would be dealing with traumatic events all the time. Another girl was told that, by reporting a rape, SHE might be expelled for premarital sex. None of this is in the least defensible.

The major difference between my era and now appears to be that we knew better than to report a rape to authorities. We knew we would inevitably be blamed because the "asking for it" narrative was still very popular well into the 1990s. It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault. A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens whose assault is an administrative inconvenience rather than a shame and a tragedy.

---

You are making some assumptions here that are untrue:

Jinx: ...they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session...

My daughter at Baylor was required to take online training about sexual assault. Baylor also heavily promotes the 'It's On Us' campaign which encourages students and administrators to say something about sexual assault.

Jinx: Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe.

No one is suggesting it is more safe for these reasons. They are suggesting it is more safe because Baylor has lower levels of alcohol and drug use than its peer universities. Alcohol and drug use are strong correlating indicators of sexual assault.

Jinx: It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault.

This may have been true prior to the sexual assault scandal but is not true today.

Jinx: A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens

The Baylor student population is 60/40 women. And, the university is run by women. It is one of the few universities that heavily emphasizes women's sports. Women are not treated as second class citizens.



Finally:
....What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

This is still good advice. Bad people are still bad people no matter how much education any institution attempts. And, Baylor is a small city of 27,000 people which will have some percent of bad people.

---

Respectfully, online training is not the same as a required in person training session you must undergo before you can register for class. I think it also helps to have men and women in the same room when the training happens.

I'd be interested to see if drinking and drug use are really lower at Baylor. That was not my experience; the major difference between Baylor and the state schools in Colorado was that the drug of choice was alcohol and dope-smokers were more rare.

Neither of my daughters went to Baylor; they both went to good liberal arts colleges where their issue with drinking was that they watched both women and men, but more often men, literally endanger their health by binge drinking so much they got alcohol poisoning, especially during their freshman years. One daughter had a harrowing night rescuing a girl who was blind drunk and staggering alone down the street; she pulled the girl into the back seat of her car, tryng not to worry about what would happen if the girl vomited, and managed to get the girl back to her dorm room and in bed. That kind of behavior, IMO, could benefit from parents sitting down with the kids and giving the "if you aren't in control of your body, you have ceded that control to someone else who can hurt or even kill you" talk.

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

The University of Montana was famously flagged as a rape school by Jon Krakauer (who wrote Under the Banner of Heaven about how Mormon culture made Elizabeth Smartt more vulnerable to kidnaping and rape). The University of Montana made a similar argument to the one you're making, that rape and sexual assault happened at all schools.

But they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session before they can register for classes: https://inthesetimes.com/article/21104/University-Montana-rape-sexual-assault-experiment-education-training

Baylor probably wouldn't do this, because part of the training is understanding what constitutes "consent," and Baylor does not want to acknowledge that premarital sex, consensual or not, occurs.

I was at Baylor in the late 1970s through 1980. I can assure you that, even 40 years ago, both consensual and non-consensual sex occurred. Often. Professor Armistead's wife worked at Planning Parenthood then and talked about how often she saw Baylor girls seeking birth control and abortions. It was a lot less shameful for a girl to have a quiet abortion than it was to have a very public pregnancy and be forever shamed for it at your school, in your church and in your hometown. Parents were often willing supporters. Sometimes boyfriends were.

Women in my day were unlikely to report a rape because they were either blamed by others or, equally common, blamed themselves (for drinking, for passing out, for walking home alone, for being in their apartment or dorm room alone, for going into a dorm room with a guy, whatever). What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

I didn't drink at all during undergrad--I've always hated beer and I sure wasn't going to drink that nasty trash can punch of everclear and Hawaiian Punch that was the beverage of choice at parties, often served in a borrowed McDonald's slushy machine. But if I had, there was always a party where I could have had all the free alcohol I wanted. Can't imagine that's changed in the last 40 years.

Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe. School administrators don't want to report events like sexual assaults, including those where obvious criminal misconduct occurred, because it contradicts the narrative that Baylor is safer and sexual assaults are less likely to occur there. One result is that women who were assaulted and reported it to administrators hoping for help and counseling were treated with callous disregard. The NYTimes reported one girl, a freshman nursing student, being told that her rape was not an excuse for finding herself unable to focus on her studies--that, as a nurse, she would be dealing with traumatic events all the time. Another girl was told that, by reporting a rape, SHE might be expelled for premarital sex. None of this is in the least defensible.

The major difference between my era and now appears to be that we knew better than to report a rape to authorities. We knew we would inevitably be blamed because the "asking for it" narrative was still very popular well into the 1990s. It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault. A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens whose assault is an administrative inconvenience rather than a shame and a tragedy.

---

You are making some assumptions here that are untrue:

Jinx: ...they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session...

My daughter at Baylor was required to take online training about sexual assault. Baylor also heavily promotes the 'It's On Us' campaign which encourages students and administrators to say something about sexual assault.

Jinx: Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe.

No one is suggesting it is more safe for these reasons. They are suggesting it is more safe because Baylor has lower levels of alcohol and drug use than its peer universities. Alcohol and drug use are strong correlating indicators of sexual assault.

Jinx: It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault.

This may have been true prior to the sexual assault scandal but is not true today.

Jinx: A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens

The Baylor student population is 60/40 women. And, the university is run by women. It is one of the few universities that heavily emphasizes women's sports. Women are not treated as second class citizens.



Finally:
....What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

This is still good advice. Bad people are still bad people no matter how much education any institution attempts. And, Baylor is a small city of 27,000 people which will have some percent of bad people.

---

Respectfully, online training is not the same as a required in person training session you must undergo before you can register for class. I think it also helps to have men and women in the same room when the training happens.

I'd be interested to see if drinking and drug use are really lower at Baylor. That was not my experience; the major difference between Baylor and the state schools in Colorado was that the drug of choice was alcohol and dope-smokers were more rare.

Neither of my daughters went to Baylor; they both went to good liberal arts colleges where their issue with drinking was that they watched both women and men, but more often men, literally endanger their health by binge drinking so much they got alcohol poisoning, especially during their freshman years. One daughter had a harrowing night rescuing a girl who was blind drunk and staggering alone down the street; she pulled the girl into the back seat of her car, tryng not to worry about what would happen if the girl vomited, and managed to get the girl back to her dorm room and in bed. That kind of behavior, IMO, could benefit from parents sitting down with the kids and giving the "if you aren't in control of your body, you have ceded that control to someone else who can hurt or even kill you" talk.

---

Before, you said Baylor would never train. Now, you are splitting hairs about the effectiveness of training.

Multiple studies show that religious education and frequency of church attendance are related to lower uses of alcohol and drugs. Further, the more frequently a person attends worship, the rates drop significantly. This may not match your personal experience but that just leaves you making judgments based on anecdotes.

Now, if you want to argue that Baylor in the past has had a judgmental, "Church Lady" approach to alcohol and sex. I'm happy to go with you there. But, based on my daughter's first hand experience, that isn't the case today.

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

You are making some assumptions here that are untrue:

Jinx: ...they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session...

My daughter at Baylor was required to take online training about sexual assault. Baylor also heavily promotes the 'It's On Us' campaign which encourages students and administrators to say something about sexual assault.

Jinx: Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe.

No one is suggesting it is more safe for these reasons. They are suggesting it is more safe because Baylor has lower levels of alcohol and drug use than its peer universities. Alcohol and drug use are strong correlating indicators of sexual assault.

Jinx: It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault.

This may have been true prior to the sexual assault scandal but is not true today.

Jinx: A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens

The Baylor student population is 60/40 women. And, the university is run by women. It is one of the few universities that heavily emphasizes women's sports. Women are not treated as second class citizens.



Finally:
....What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

This is still good advice. Bad people are still bad people no matter how much education any institution attempts. And, Baylor is a small city of 27,000 people which will have some percent of bad people.

---

Respectfully, online training is not the same as a required in person training session you must undergo before you can register for class. I think it also helps to have men and women in the same room when the training happens.

I'd be interested to see if drinking and drug use are really lower at Baylor. That was not my experience; the major difference between Baylor and the state schools in Colorado was that the drug of choice was alcohol and dope-smokers were more rare.

Neither of my daughters went to Baylor; they both went to good liberal arts colleges where their issue with drinking was that they watched both women and men, but more often men, literally endanger their health by binge drinking so much they got alcohol poisoning, especially during their freshman years. One daughter had a harrowing night rescuing a girl who was blind drunk and staggering alone down the street; she pulled the girl into the back seat of her car, tryng not to worry about what would happen if the girl vomited, and managed to get the girl back to her dorm room and in bed. That kind of behavior, IMO, could benefit from parents sitting down with the kids and giving the "if you aren't in control of your body, you have ceded that control to someone else who can hurt or even kill you" talk.

---

Before, you said Baylor would never train. Now, you are splitting hairs about the effectiveness of training.

Multiple studies show that religious education and frequency of church attendance are related to lower uses of alcohol and drugs. Further, the more frequently a person attends worship, the rates drop significantly. This may not match your personal experience but that just leaves you making judgments based on anecdotes.

Now, if you want to argue that Baylor in the past has had a judgmental, "Church Lady" approach to alcohol and sex. I'm happy to go with you there. But, based on my daughter's first hand experience, that isn't the case today.

---

Are these studies of teens? Or generally?

This study suggests that social engagement/involvement-whether religious or secular-is associated with less drug use in teens.

Religiosity and teen drug use reconsidered: a social capital perspective.
Bartkowski JP1, Xu X.
Author information

Erratum in

• Am J Prev Med. 2008 Jan;34(1):85.

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Although religiosity has often been shown to have a deterrent effect on teen drug use, noteworthy theoretic gaps and contradictory findings have left important questions unanswered.
METHODS:
Conceptualizing religion as a measure of social capital and using cross-sectional data from Monitoring the Future (1996), a nationally representative sample of American high school seniors collected annually, this study is designed to shed new light on the relationship between religiosity and drug use among American youth. Levels of teen drug use for three different components of faith-based social capital-exposure to and internalization of religious norms, integration within religious networks, and trust in religious phenomena-are explored with respect to high school seniors' use of alcohol, marijuana, and other illicit drugs during the year prior to the survey. In addition, drug use associated with faith-based and secular forms of civic engagement among teens (e.g., participation in religious youth groups vs secular organizations such as sports and school clubs, theistic trust vs secular trust) are compared.
RESULTS:
Among religiosity variables, integration within congregational networks (i.e., worship service attendance) exhibits the most consistent negative association with youth drug use. Theistic trust is not associated with teen drug use, but secular trust and civic participation in secular organizations are associated with less drug use.
CONCLUSIONS:
Elements of both religious and secular social capital are associated with lower reported drug use, thereby suggesting that multiple avenues for the prevention of teen drug use might be pursued. Implications and directions for future research are discussed.

Teens - http://marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_substance_abuse

"Decades of research indicate that a higher level of religious involvement is associated with a reduced likelihood of abusing alcohol5) or drugs.6) The relationship between religious practice and the avoidance or moderate use of alcohol is well documented, whether or not denominational tenets specifically prohibit the use of alcohol.7)

Adolescents,8) psychiatric patients,9) and recovering addicts10) all show lower rates of alcohol abuse the more frequently they engage in religious activities. For adolescents, higher levels of religious practice by their mothers are related to significantly lower rates of alcohol abuse, even after controlling for religious denomination and the adolescents' peer associationstwo factors that also influence the level of drinking.11)"

Edmond Bear said:

---

Teens - http://marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_substance_abuse

"Decades of research indicate that a higher level of religious involvement is associated with a reduced likelihood of abusing alcohol5) or drugs.6) The relationship between religious practice and the avoidance or moderate use of alcohol is well documented, whether or not denominational tenets specifically prohibit the use of alcohol.7)

Adolescents,8) psychiatric patients,9) and recovering addicts10) all show lower rates of alcohol abuse the more frequently they engage in religious activities. For adolescents, higher levels of religious practice by their mothers are related to significantly lower rates of alcohol abuse, even after controlling for religious denomination and the adolescents' peer associationstwo factors that also influence the level of drinking.11)"

---

Marripedia is an agenda-driven research source that only makes available social science studies that support certain positions generally shared by the conservative Christian community / Mormons.

What appears to be true is that higher social engagement--whether religious or secular--correlates to less drug use. People who are active church-goers have higher social engagement. But church isn't the only place where people can engage socially, and belief in God isn't a necessary component to sobriety.

Whoever is in charge of the clattering train needs to let Dershowitz handle the public speaking on behalf of the Prez. Ken needs to be out of sight/out of mind. Don't have a clue what he brings to the table in this gig, other than it is just as stupid as the one he rode herd on in Cigargate. Damned waste of a good Cuban.

I stopped reading at N.Y. Slimes

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Stranger said:

---

Starr and Ian, more so than Briles, are responsible for the shame and ridicule brought upon Baylor University. Starr just needs to go away somewhere.

---

This story makes it abundantly clear that the problems re: sexual assault at Baylor did not start (or end) with Ken Starr. And that they weren't limited to the football team.

Starr was ineffectual and leaned whichever way the political wind was blowing. That's what he's done throughout his career. He is the prince and prophet of plausible deniability.

One big issue is that, in evangelical culture, women are blamed for their own sexual assaults. They're also blamed if they get pregnant. Or if they have consensual sex and don't get pregnant. As if those assaults were self-inflicted. And the pregnancies immaculate conceptions. And the consensual sex acts depended solely on the women's consent. Until the male leaders in evangelical congregations stop treating women as the sexual gatekeepers and blaming them solely, whether they are assaulted or a consensual partner (when the man involved also consented), these problems will continue.

After reading this article, I can't imagine how any parent with daughters would send them to Baylor.

---

Jinx, I encourage you to never send children to Baylor.

If you are going to believe an attorney who says "Starr presided over Baylor at a time when hundreds of young women were assaulted" which is patently untrue, you have no business sending kids to Baylor or being involved with Baylor in any way.

Yes, Starr was asleep at the wheel. Yes, Baylor did not comply with Title IX at the same time 80% of universities also did not comply with Title IX and did not have full-time staff. Yes, Baylor has had a Baptist view of sex and it is either judgmental or hands-off.

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

The numbers were high.

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

Teens - http://marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_substance_abuse

"Decades of research indicate that a higher level of religious involvement is associated with a reduced likelihood of abusing alcohol5) or drugs.6) The relationship between religious practice and the avoidance or moderate use of alcohol is well documented, whether or not denominational tenets specifically prohibit the use of alcohol.7)

Adolescents,8) psychiatric patients,9) and recovering addicts10) all show lower rates of alcohol abuse the more frequently they engage in religious activities. For adolescents, higher levels of religious practice by their mothers are related to significantly lower rates of alcohol abuse, even after controlling for religious denomination and the adolescents' peer associationstwo factors that also influence the level of drinking.11)"

---

Marripedia is an agenda-driven research source that only makes available social science studies that support certain positions generally shared by the conservative Christian community / Mormons.

What appears to be true is that higher social engagement--whether religious or secular--correlates to less drug use. People who are active church-goers have higher social engagement. But church isn't the only place where people can engage socially, and belief in God isn't a necessary component to sobriety.

---

When your OP proof point is the NY Times which is unabashedly activist liberal (according to its own journalists) you lose all credence for knocking any other source.

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

But, to think that a university that does not have the same level of attributes (drinking and drugs) that are associated with increased levels of sexual assault that other universities have and to think that Baylor has higher levels of sexual assault is either flat ignorance or disingenous.

---

https://www.kwtx.com/content/news/Fifth-rape-reported-to-Baylor-police-in-two-months-president-addresses-students-505317231.html

WACO, Texas (KWTX) According to the Baylor police crime log, the university has received another allegation of campus-sexual assault/rape.

The log states, the alleged rape occurred on Jan. 26 at 11th Street Flat, off-campus housing, and was reported to campus police on Jan. 30. just before 3 p.m.

With regards to the off-campus incident, the university says with multiple ways of reporting, "A person's way of reporting might reflect their decision to not involve law enforcement at this time, and under Title IX they have a right to do so."

If they report it to the Title IX Office, they are informed of their rights and can decide at a later date if they would like to move forward with a criminal investigation.

The report of a fifth rape comes days after three campus-sexual assault/rapes were reported to have occurred at South Russell Hall on campus.

---

Baylor is a small city of 23,000 students, professors, and admin. Unfortunately, when you gather that many people together there are terrible things that happen.

You are missing the point that the highest causal indicators of sexual assault are less prevalent at Baylor than other universities. They exist at Baylor but not to the degree of other universities.

If a parent should not send their daughter to Baylor, they shouldn't send them anywhere. Using your logic, we should lock all of our daughters in closets.

---

The University of Montana was famously flagged as a rape school by Jon Krakauer (who wrote Under the Banner of Heaven about how Mormon culture made Elizabeth Smartt more vulnerable to kidnaping and rape). The University of Montana made a similar argument to the one you're making, that rape and sexual assault happened at all schools.

But they also took action to reduce campus rape. Among other actions, the school now requires all students to go through a mandatory training session before they can register for classes: https://inthesetimes.com/article/21104/University-Montana-rape-sexual-assault-experiment-education-training

Baylor probably wouldn't do this, because part of the training is understanding what constitutes "consent," and Baylor does not want to acknowledge that premarital sex, consensual or not, occurs.

I was at Baylor in the late 1970s through 1980. I can assure you that, even 40 years ago, both consensual and non-consensual sex occurred. Often. Professor Armistead's wife worked at Planning Parenthood then and talked about how often she saw Baylor girls seeking birth control and abortions. It was a lot less shameful for a girl to have a quiet abortion than it was to have a very public pregnancy and be forever shamed for it at your school, in your church and in your hometown. Parents were often willing supporters. Sometimes boyfriends were.

Women in my day were unlikely to report a rape because they were either blamed by others or, equally common, blamed themselves (for drinking, for passing out, for walking home alone, for being in their apartment or dorm room alone, for going into a dorm room with a guy, whatever). What we did back then was warn each other: Don't let __________ walk you home. Don't go into _________'s dorm room. Never get in a car alone with ______.

I didn't drink at all during undergrad--I've always hated beer and I sure wasn't going to drink that nasty trash can punch of everclear and Hawaiian Punch that was the beverage of choice at parties, often served in a borrowed McDonald's slushy machine. But if I had, there was always a party where I could have had all the free alcohol I wanted. Can't imagine that's changed in the last 40 years.

Baylor may wish to promote the idea that it is somehow safer than other schools because (in theory) premarital sex and alcohol are both prohibited on campus because of its religious affiliation. IMO, that claim and the fact that it's false but promoted to parents as true makes Baylor LESS safe. School administrators don't want to report events like sexual assaults, including those where obvious criminal misconduct occurred, because it contradicts the narrative that Baylor is safer and sexual assaults are less likely to occur there. One result is that women who were assaulted and reported it to administrators hoping for help and counseling were treated with callous disregard. The NYTimes reported one girl, a freshman nursing student, being told that her rape was not an excuse for finding herself unable to focus on her studies--that, as a nurse, she would be dealing with traumatic events all the time. Another girl was told that, by reporting a rape, SHE might be expelled for premarital sex. None of this is in the least defensible.

The major difference between my era and now appears to be that we knew better than to report a rape to authorities. We knew we would inevitably be blamed because the "asking for it" narrative was still very popular well into the 1990s. It appears that Baylor administrators would prefer a "Don't ask, don't tell" policy relating to rape and sexual assault. A good reason for women to go to a school where women aren't viewed as second-class citizens whose assault is an administrative inconvenience rather than a shame and a tragedy.

---

I'm guessing you had no idea that Baylor implemented all 105 recommendations made by Pepper Hamilton, is that right?

https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/texas/baylor-implements-all-105-pepper-hamilton-recommendations/

https://www.kcentv.com/mobile/article/news/local/baylor-works-to-complete-105-pepper-hamilton-recommendations/439258913

https://www.wacotrib.com/news/higher_education/baylor-announces-task-forces-teams-to-carry-out-pepper-hamilton/article_c0d85d1f-ff20-5066-aad8-767f53a0d982.html

Edmond Bear said:

---

Jinx 2 said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

Teens - http://marripedia.org/effects_of_religious_practice_on_substance_abuse

"Decades of research indicate that a higher level of religious involvement is associated with a reduced likelihood of abusing alcohol5) or drugs.6) The relationship between religious practice and the avoidance or moderate use of alcohol is well documented, whether or not denominational tenets specifically prohibit the use of alcohol.7)

Adolescents,8) psychiatric patients,9) and recovering addicts10) all show lower rates of alcohol abuse the more frequently they engage in religious activities. For adolescents, higher levels of religious practice by their mothers are related to significantly lower rates of alcohol abuse, even after controlling for religious denomination and the adolescents' peer associationstwo factors that also influence the level of drinking.11)"

---

Marripedia is an agenda-driven research source that only makes available social science studies that support certain positions generally shared by the conservative Christian community / Mormons.

What appears to be true is that higher social engagement--whether religious or secular--correlates to less drug use. People who are active church-goers have higher social engagement. But church isn't the only place where people can engage socially, and belief in God isn't a necessary component to sobriety.

---

When your OP proof point is the NY Times which is unabashedly activist liberal (according to its own journalists) you lose all credence for knocking any other source.

---

The New York Times is a newspaper. = Not perfect but damn good = Trump isn't going to look going in their coverage = familiarity = contempt cuz they've known Trump and his Dad for a lifetime (so of course they have no credibility with people whose memory involves the non "neglectionary" portion of the new testament plus whatever else Fox told you to think over the past few months.

Marripedia is a partisan research forum.

I'm guessing you didn't attend Baylor's (very good, at least in my ancient era) journalism school.

For RWNJs, journalism = climate change = stuff we don't "believe in" because it doesn't suit our "worldview"

When you're ready to rejoin the real world, let me know.

Aliceinbubbleland said:

---

I don't think Jinx understands how a ***** works.

---

But I certainly understand how a dick acts.