Apologize for being White

7,017 Views | 186 Replies | Last: 23 days ago by Waco1947
Porteroso
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Oldbear83 said:

"This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."

Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.
I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?
Canada2017
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When are people going to apologize for all the looted stores , stolen cars, beaten people , burned businesses , and murdered policemen ?

When are people going to apologize for abusing drugs and alcohol, for abandoning their children , for not leading productive lives ?


Never
Porteroso
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Canada2017 said:

Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:


WHATEVER THEY MAY BE

There it is...perfect .

Trillions spent in aid, social services , job placement , education , Affirmative Action .......and its not enough . It's never going to be 'enough'.

' Gee we don't really know what else to do.......but we still suck anyway .' Absolutely perfect .

Newsflash dude:

You might suck... but I don't .

Neither does anyone else who pays taxes , loyally raises a family and contributes to our society .
This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery. The government might spend a trillion dollars a minute on the issue, but it's clearly not being very effective, newsflash. We as a country are totally complacent, and ok with some neighborhoods just sucking, but that is where crime is high, where injustices happen.

And just because you don't know what else to do doesn't mean there's nothing else. You've already proven your ignorance. Go talk to a social worker, assuming you know of one.

There are plenty of ways to improve all of our lives, we just sit on our behinds on the issue of poverty and the strife it is bringing our country. Much of America was straight up built upon the backs of slaves, and so the one thing you posted correctly, is that no matter what the federal government does, it will never be enough to right that wrong.


Then by all means sell all your possessions and get to East St Louis pronto .

Find yourself some appropriate digs in the hood ....6 months lease minimal .

Should be extremely easy to find work in the area, righting the wrong of all those oppressed descendants of slavery ...155 years ago .

Cause typing on your little keyboard isn't going to provide you near the education such as living and working in East St Louis will .

Keep us updated .

Thanks



At least you're able to recognize that there's a problem with generational poverty. That's a good first step.
Canada2017
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Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:

Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:


WHATEVER THEY MAY BE

There it is...perfect .

Trillions spent in aid, social services , job placement , education , Affirmative Action .......and its not enough . It's never going to be 'enough'.

' Gee we don't really know what else to do.......but we still suck anyway .' Absolutely perfect .

Newsflash dude:

You might suck... but I don't .

Neither does anyone else who pays taxes , loyally raises a family and contributes to our society .
This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery. The government might spend a trillion dollars a minute on the issue, but it's clearly not being very effective, newsflash. We as a country are totally complacent, and ok with some neighborhoods just sucking, but that is where crime is high, where injustices happen.

And just because you don't know what else to do doesn't mean there's nothing else. You've already proven your ignorance. Go talk to a social worker, assuming you know of one.

There are plenty of ways to improve all of our lives, we just sit on our behinds on the issue of poverty and the strife it is bringing our country. Much of America was straight up built upon the backs of slaves, and so the one thing you posted correctly, is that no matter what the federal government does, it will never be enough to right that wrong.


Then by all means sell all your possessions and get to East St Louis pronto .

Find yourself some appropriate digs in the hood ....6 months lease minimal .

Should be extremely easy to find work in the area, righting the wrong of all those oppressed descendants of slavery ...155 years ago .

Cause typing on your little keyboard isn't going to provide you near the education such as living and working in East St Louis will .

Keep us updated .

Thanks

At least you're able to recognize that there's a problem with generational poverty. That's a good first step.



So your are not going to lead by example ?

Get a first hand education ?


Shocking .
Porteroso
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Canada2017 said:



When are people going to apologize for all the looted stores , stolen cars, beaten people , burned businesses , and murdered policemen ?

When are people going to apologize for abusing drugs and alcohol, for abandoning their children , for not leading productive lives ?


Never
You're simply having a different conversation than I am. In my reality, all sorts of dads abandon their children and abuse alcohol. Are you really claiming that it's only black dads that do those things? Pretty incredible that we're trying to have a conversation about racial bias in cop killings, and you're over there thinking "black people, oh yeah I remember what fox news said. They're all busy abandoning their kids and boozing up."
Canada2017
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Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:



When are people going to apologize for all the looted stores , stolen cars, beaten people , burned businesses , and murdered policemen ?

When are people going to apologize for abusing drugs and alcohol, for abandoning their children , for not leading productive lives ?


Never
You're simply having a different conversation than I am. In my reality, all sorts of dads abandon their children and abuse alcohol. Are you really claiming that it's only black dads that do those things? Pretty incredible that we're trying to have a conversation about racial bias in cop killings, and you're over there thinking "black people, oh yeah I remember what fox news said. They're all busy abandoning their kids and boozing up."


Where did i say only black people ?

YOU made that assumption.

The ones who need to 'apologize' are the ones who fail to live up to today's responsibilities.

And there are millions of them lounging around ....of all skin tones .

bearassnekkid
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Booray said:

Johnny Bear said:

Waco1947 said:

Doc Holliday said:

Is this what all this is really about?




No, apologize for what whites have "done." You can not help being white , but you can change and DO the things that make for justice.




And what exactly have whites "done" in the year 2020 to apologize for that blacks aren't at least equally culpable of doing? And if we're going to play the let's apologize for our ancestors' actions that we of course had absolutely nothing to do with game, then when are blacks going to apologize to fellow blacks for all of the black African slave traders of centuries past - without whom slavery in the USA would've never happened? You see, if we're going to waste time playing this game, then two can play it,


Let's start here: no requirement to accept personal responsibility. Can you say you are sorry that slavery and discrimination happened? Can you say you are sorry that racism exists? Can you say you are sorry that blacks are born into a world that often sees them as inferior based on their skin color?
I am sorry that slavery existed in any form, in any place, throughout human history. That includes virtually every inhabitable square inch of dirt on our planet, by the way. I am not responsible, however, for any of it.

I am sorry that racism exists, in every single race of people, and all across the globe. That includes blacks. I don't believe that racism exists only in people with certain skin tones. That is an absurd (and racist) notion.

You think blacks are seen as inferior based on their skin color? By whom? We had a black president of the united states, and blacks only make up 12% of the population. Who do you think voted for him? This idea that blacks are born into a world that views them as inferior is despicable, race-baiting fiction.
bearassnekkid
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engiBEAR said:

bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

whitetrash said:

Jack Bauer said:

Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.

Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.
Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.

Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.

This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"

Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.

Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.

And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?

What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?

And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"

What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
Oldbear83
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Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

"This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."

Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.
I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?
You're very lost if you believe 'not accepting a false narrative' means 'ignorant'.

Doc Holliday
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bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

whitetrash said:

Jack Bauer said:

Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.

Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.
Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.

Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.

This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"

Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.

Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.

And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?

What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?

And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"

What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
They want you to feel guilty, submit to their ideology and vote blue the rest of your life.

While they tell you you're a devil.

That's what they want.
br53
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Doc Holliday said:

bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

whitetrash said:

Jack Bauer said:

Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.

Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.
Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.

Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.

This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"

Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.

Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.

And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?

What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?

And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"

What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
They want you to feel guilty, submit to their ideology and vote blue the rest of your life.

While they tell you you're a devil.

That's what they want.
Exactly for proof see Drew Brees.
Porteroso
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Oldbear83 said:

Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

"This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."

Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.
I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?
You're very lost if you believe 'not accepting a false narrative' means 'ignorant'.



This was a lot for you to follow, but read first sentence you said describes the second sentence. The first is about ignorance, the second is about generational poverty. What is your alternative narrative you'd like to push? I bet you don't even have one, you just don't want to admit the fallout from slavery still affects our country. Ignorance is bliss for old bears like you.
Porteroso
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Canada2017 said:

Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:



When are people going to apologize for all the looted stores , stolen cars, beaten people , burned businesses , and murdered policemen ?

When are people going to apologize for abusing drugs and alcohol, for abandoning their children , for not leading productive lives ?


Never
You're simply having a different conversation than I am. In my reality, all sorts of dads abandon their children and abuse alcohol. Are you really claiming that it's only black dads that do those things? Pretty incredible that we're trying to have a conversation about racial bias in cop killings, and you're over there thinking "black people, oh yeah I remember what fox news said. They're all busy abandoning their kids and boozing up."


Where did i say only black people ?

YOU made that assumption.

The ones who need to 'apologize' are the ones who fail to live up to today's responsibilities.

And there are millions of them lounging around ....of all skin tones .



You were replying to my post about generational poverty often being traced back to slavery, right? Are the dots really so hard to connect, or was your post a random one off that's in the wrong thread?
Oldbear83
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Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

"This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."

Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.
I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?
You're very lost if you believe 'not accepting a false narrative' means 'ignorant'.



This was a lot for you to follow, but read first sentence you said describes the second sentence. The first is about ignorance, the second is about generational poverty. What is your alternative narrative you'd like to push? I bet you don't even have one, you just don't want to admit the fallout from slavery still affects our country. Ignorance is bliss for old bears like you.
Your arrogance does not help your argument, Porteroso. Instead of talking down to someone with a different opinion, you might try doing more to explain your position.

You threw out a broad and IMO largely false contention. Then you took offense when it was not accepted as Gospel. That's not my problem, it's yours.
Porteroso
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Oldbear83 said:

Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

"This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."

Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.
I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?
You're very lost if you believe 'not accepting a false narrative' means 'ignorant'.



This was a lot for you to follow, but read first sentence you said describes the second sentence. The first is about ignorance, the second is about generational poverty. What is your alternative narrative you'd like to push? I bet you don't even have one, you just don't want to admit the fallout from slavery still affects our country. Ignorance is bliss for old bears like you.
Your arrogance does not help your argument, Porteroso. Instead of talking down to someone with a different opinion, you might try doing more to explain your position.

You threw out a broad and IMO largely false contention. Then you took offense when it was not accepted as Gospel. That's not my problem, it's yours.

You are the one offended by my arrogance. I asked you to clarify your statement, and you didn't or more likely couldn't, instead tried to skirt the issue. You can have a discussion like an adult, or be treated as not worth the time, if you're just here to troll.
Canada2017
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Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:

Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:



When are people going to apologize for all the looted stores , stolen cars, beaten people , burned businesses , and murdered policemen ?

When are people going to apologize for abusing drugs and alcohol, for abandoning their children , for not leading productive lives ?


Never
You're simply having a different conversation than I am. In my reality, all sorts of dads abandon their children and abuse alcohol. Are you really claiming that it's only black dads that do those things? Pretty incredible that we're trying to have a conversation about racial bias in cop killings, and you're over there thinking "black people, oh yeah I remember what fox news said. They're all busy abandoning their kids and boozing up."


Where did i say only black people ?

YOU made that assumption.

The ones who need to 'apologize' are the ones who fail to live up to today's responsibilities.

And there are millions of them lounging around ....of all skin tones .



You were replying to my post about generational poverty often being traced back to slavery, right? Are the dots really so hard to connect, or was your post a random one off that's in the wrong thread?




Hope you are impressing yourself with this tripe because you sure aren't impressing me .

What is your background.....have you spent any significant amount of time overseas ?
engiBEAR
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bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

whitetrash said:

Jack Bauer said:

Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.

Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.
Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.

Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.

This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"

Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.

Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.

And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?

What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?

And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"

What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.

I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.

There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...

I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.

The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.

I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
Oldbear83
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Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

Porteroso said:

Oldbear83 said:

"This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."

Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.
I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?
You're very lost if you believe 'not accepting a false narrative' means 'ignorant'.



This was a lot for you to follow, but read first sentence you said describes the second sentence. The first is about ignorance, the second is about generational poverty. What is your alternative narrative you'd like to push? I bet you don't even have one, you just don't want to admit the fallout from slavery still affects our country. Ignorance is bliss for old bears like you.
Your arrogance does not help your argument, Porteroso. Instead of talking down to someone with a different opinion, you might try doing more to explain your position.

You threw out a broad and IMO largely false contention. Then you took offense when it was not accepted as Gospel. That's not my problem, it's yours.

You are the one offended by my arrogance. I asked you to clarify your statement, and you didn't or more likely couldn't, instead tried to skirt the issue. You can have a discussion like an adult, or be treated as not worth the time, if you're just here to troll.
You are so damn lazy Porteroso, you won't even read what I posted just in this thread.

So for your convenience, a recap of my prior posts here:

June 2, 123 PM:

"There are some very good minds on each side, who go to trouble to present their arguments rationally. There are also others who do nothing but troll or attack. You may notice I have take Florda to task from time to time for such comments, but literally none of you on the left ever challenge someone on your own side to raise their game.

As long as you continue such hypocrisy, it's impossible to consider you interested in a real discussion."



That hypocrisy is your behavior right now, Porteroso. But moving on:


June 2, 255 PM

"Some of the best advice I received as a young man, even though I sometimes found it hard to apply to internet discussions, is that while you may ask for many things, demanding them generally is a poor course of action, and this is especially true in divisive matters.

Like you, I have been around for a long time and have seen this nation face many crises related to race. There has been some good progress and a great many concessions made in the name of fairness. But I observe that the groups which make demands are never satisfied with whatever is decided - they always come back with more and more demands, including many which are nothing but greed and malice.

Literally trillions of tax dollars spent in programs to help one specific race, academic and social pandering to a single race to make the most extreme of that group feel important, special advantages in college admissions and employment in the name of that same sense of fairness, and yet the groups which have received the most are unwilling to address their own internal issues. Black on black crime remains the greatest criminal threat in the country, the lack of nuclear families keeps generations of Americans in poverty and lacing a vital stability in their hopes and dreams. And this week we see that the people most outraged (rightly) by an injustice, do great damage to their own credibility by destroying buildings in their own communities owned by innocent individuals and businesses, and looting as if that was more important than respecting the memory of Mr. Floyd.

My family fought in the Civil War to end Slavery, and has never engaged in any behavior which a reasonable person would call racist. I married someone outside my own race and have worked under and with countless people of all races, promoting many people of color over the years purely on the basis of their excellent work and skills. Yet I am judged on the basis of my own color, and told I am evil just for my own rational opinions based on experience and specific behavior of individuals."



I guess that was too much for you to bother reading, much less consider.


But moving on, my next post on June 3, 716 PM:

" Look at the fact that the officer most responsible was immediately denounced by police around the nation, and was indicted within four days. All the officers involved were immediately fired and are now facing criminal charges. Any or all of them could see 40 years in prison. That is certainly very different from the past.

I do not deny that police as a rule had issues with racism in the past, and that some departments are still not addressing the problem of abuse by officers. But a lot of these incidents involve black officers, and are in departments with black police chiefs. It's absurd to pretend black officers and chiefs would take part in a system meant to oppress blacks, Other factors and forces are involved, and false claims of systemic racism only get in the way of addressing the real causes.

" I would like to say that I do not mind anyone's opinion, especially when someone writes it to explain their own life choices. I think those statements can expand our comprehension of broader and diverse perspectives. But too often, people try to use their opinion to judge and insult others, and that shuts down any real discussion.

Also, I despise the phrase 'white privilege', because it smears millions of poor white Americans, and blames countless innocents with false claims. I do agree that in certain places, black Americans suffer persecution because of their race, but that is 'black persecution' not 'white privilege'.

"Privilege" is a reward or benefit. It is not a word properly used to describe not being harmed or attacked. And the phrase 'white privilege' implies that being white, in general, provides specific and tangible advantage and opportunity on the basis of race. Such claims do not help the oppressed or lead to effective advances in protecting the rights of all Americans."

Now with all that available for your consideration, can you offer a defense of your own opinion and
experience that advances the discussion, or do you want to continue being an ass?

Your choice.
engiBEAR
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Oldbear83 said:

Hello again, engiBear, and thanks for your request. I hope this can be a useful discussion on the subject.

You asked "I'm curious what makes my response irrational in your eyes? I felt like I civilly explained my point without namecalling or insults. So I'm genuinely interested in your perspective."

My perspective is colored by your posts in toto for this thread, so I must recap the relevant parts:

Yesterday at 348, you said "a man was murdered...he was further "subdued" though he was already face down in handcuffs and begging for breath. It's the continuation of a pattern that has been ongoing for far longer than 35 years."

As a subjective opinion, that's fine. I disagree with the claim, because it claims these tragedies and crimes are part of a system, which is in my opinion complete bilge. Look at the fact that the officer most responsible was immediately denounced by police around the nation, and was indicted within four days. All the officers involved were immediately fired and are now facing criminal charges. Any or all of them could see 40 years in prison. That is certainly very different from the past.

I do not deny that police as a rule had issues with racism in the past, and that some departments are still not addressing the problem of abuse by officers. But a lot of these incidents involve black officers, and are in departments with black police chiefs. It's absurd to pretend black officers and chiefs would take part in a system meant to oppress blacks, Other factors and forces are involved, and false claims of systemic racism only get in the way of addressing the real causes.

In that same post, you concluded by telling Canada "It sounds like you live in a bubble, friend, as I have for a lot of my life. It's time for us to listen and learn." That's very condescending and virtue signaling, and rejects a completely valid perspective just because you don't share it. And you posted this immediately after accusing Canada of the same thing.

Just minutes after that, you went after whitetrash (took his name too seriously, perhaps?) and told him "you guys likely speak up against abortion and gay rights but are quiet on this issue. Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society."

That's awfully damn arrogant, assumes things you have no knowledge of, and in the bargain throws out that horrid 'white privilege' lie.

Those comments and others, I believe, prompted bearassnekkid to make his comments today at 149 AM. He went to great trouble to discuss his opinion on privilege, and did so without insulting or attacking anyone. His GTFO comment at the end was effectively an idiom reinforcing the absurdity of demanding someone else live by your expectations in the name of justice.

Before I go on, I would like to say that I do not mind anyone's opinion, especially when someone writes it to explain their own life choices. I think those statements can expand our comprehension of broader and diverse perspectives. But too often, people try to use their opinion to judge and insult others, and that shuts down any real discussion.

Also, I despise the phrase 'white privilege', because it smears millions of poor white Americans, and blames countless innocents with false claims. I do agree that in certain places, black Americans suffer persecution because of their race, but that is 'black persecution' not 'white privilege'.

"Privilege" is a reward or benefit. It is not a word properly used to describe not being harmed or attacked. And the phrase 'white privilege' implies that being white, in general, provides specific and tangible advantage and opportunity on the basis of race. Such claims do not help the oppressed or lead to effective advances in protecting the rights of all Americans.

You followed those posts with the 316 PM post from today, saying "The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't". Again, as a personal statement I have no problem with it, but you went on to virtue signal, saying "Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate"

That was a lie, sir, and is offensive. We are fortunate to live in a world where many millions succeed with skin color playing no role at all. That is an accomplishment we should celebrate and use for further advances, not ignore or deny.

You finished that post by calling bearassnekkid's very thoughtful post "snide comments".

I regard that as uncivil.

Again, thank you for your question, and for reading my lengthy opinion.
Thank you for your input. I really do appreciate your response.

I'll agree with you that my first comments were edgy, so I can see where you get the tone "in toto". There was plenty of sarcasm to go around, myself included. Fault could be found with all of us. Following that, I think we all tried to move from digs to a more productive conversation.

As far as bearassnekkid's post, I disagree with you and would like to clarify a couple of things:

1. I don't understand how my claim that his statement re: skin color being inaccurate is either a lie or offensive. My statement is citing statistics and studies (thus, stating facts). It's not my nor anyone else's opinion. And I'm not talking about slanted polls, I'm talking accredited studies -- some of which have even been conducted by our beloved Baylor University. So I wasn't dispelling his opinion with mine...I was saying he's wrong and there is credible information to show it. And is why I offered to share some of those references with him.

2. I used "snide comments" in reference to his saying my take was offensive to him and to GTFO. I think snide accurately describes what he said. So I told him to back off with that.
Oldbear83
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Thanks engiBear, I will follow up with a better post in a bit, but to your point about statistics, I recall the old quote about three kinds of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics.

The problem is sometimes how data is used. A lot gets manipulated to sell a position these days, so it's necessary to look deeper than a headline to find the real meat of the issue.

But more on that when I can treat the topic properly. Thanks again for your response.
bearassnekkid
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engiBEAR said:

bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:

whitetrash said:

Jack Bauer said:

Stephen A just told white people that if they are silent, then they are compliant.

Must be why every single upper-class white woman has to post a 3 paragraph statement on Facebook this week.
What if we speak up and tell him to STFU? Can't be accused of being silent then.
Perhaps it's worth an honest self-evaluation and deciding if you are quiet about this because you actually do enjoy the privileges you've enjoyed in your life? I'd have to say that you are compliant if you don't disagree with what's going on in our society.

Serious question: What is wrong with enjoying a privilege? I know people who have money because it was passed down to them by their parents (who worked hard and saved so they could give it to their children). Should those people feel bad that their parents left them money? Should they not enjoy the gift they received, simply because it wasn't something everyone else got? Did you ever get a bike one year for Christmas? Did you feel horrible about it, and refuse to enjoy it because some other kids didn't get a bike? The "privilege" talking point is moronic. I wasn't born with the ability to run a 4.3 forty yard dash. But I'm not telling the guy who was that he should feel bad about it, and that it isn't fair that he got a college scholarship, and that he should apologize for using his advantage and running faster than me. Life isn't fair. I'm not "owed" anything, nor do I expect outside forces to "level the playing field" for me.

This is absolute madness. It also, by the way, isn't about skin pigmentation. At all. It is almost entirely solely socio-economic. What disadvantage does a black child face in comparison to a white child in a trailer park outside Marshall, TX with no dad in the home and mother on meth? What does their skin color have to do with the "opportunities" they each have? And how is the trailer park kid "privileged?"

Make an intelligent case or GTFO with this crap. It is insulting.
Good question, and I'll answer: no, I don't blame anyone for enjoying a privilege. I've enjoyed quite a bit of privilege myself. I've also worked hard to get to where I am in life. Neither takes away from the other, and I'm comfortable with that. The reality is that I, as a white male, had opportunities in life that some of my black/brown peers haven't. Not all, but many of those instances, are because of the "hand I was dealt", which are either directly or indirectly linked to my race/ethnicity. My connections in life, whether it be from friends, family, church, etc. got me the opportunities I had. Thankfully, I worked hard and took advantage of them. But I can tell you from experience that I almost assuredly wouldn't have those connections if I wasn't white. I can give examples if you'd like. The point is not that privileged people can't take advantage of their privilege - heck, even build on it (like in your example of your friend's inheritance). The point is that we shouldn't be naive to think that privilege doesn't play a part and be comfortable enough to admit that to ourselves and others. As I said, I'm perfectly fine saying that I'm fortunate and was privileged to be given the opportunity for success that I was. It doesn't mean that my hard work didn't matter -- it just means that my hard work was a little (or a lot) more efficient because I didn't have to prove I belonged in the process.

Your argument about skin color not being a factor is simply inaccurate. Countless studies have been done on this subject, and it is generally accepted in the helping professions to not be true. In your example, their skin color is actually going to affect them a lot. I can recommend some resources if you'd like to study up on the subject.

And if you're so insulted by my perspective, then stop responding. But if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation, keep your snide comments to yourself.
I had the "advantage" of living in a home with two loving parents, who set good examples for me and had high expectations of me. We didn't have money though. So what?

What is the objective here? What is the point? If you're just saying "Man, it's so unfair that more white-skinned people have 'connections' or have 'nuclear families' or 'money from their family", then my response is "Ok. So what?" What do you want to do about it? What do you expect of me? Am I supposed to do something? Or just apologize that everyone doesn't start out with the exact same cards? I didn't get the best starting cards either. A LOT of people had extreme advantages over me. Do I get to complain or demand something be done about it?

And why? To what end? Should we take away everyone's money and start them all off at zero, and then give each person an equal amount of money so it's a level playing field? When did life give us "perfectly fair in all respects" guarantee? And how do we account for physical advantages? Should we make the faster guy in the race carry a weight plate on his back so the race is "fair?" Or make the better boxer fight with one hand tied behind his back? How is that "fair?"

What. Do. You. Want. To. See. Happen? Tell me what you think the problem is, and how you'd like it solved.
It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.

I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.

There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...

I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.

The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.

I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
All of that sounds great, and I don't disagree with any of it. But it's kind of a non-answer.

All you really said here is is that the problem, apparently, is that "people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances." I'll go with that as your starting point, but it requires some clarification. Dying at the hands of whom? Each other? Or are you referring to being killed by police? The latter is supposedly what the riots are all about, but it is fiction. People of color are not being killed by police disproportionately. (Notably, police, on the other hand, are being killed disproportionately by people of color). As you said . . . that's not someone's opinion, it is a statistic.

So I'm not sure your stated problem holds up to scrutiny. But even if it were true . . . what would you like to see done about it? What is the objective here? You didn't answer that. If people want to kick and scream about a perceived problem, they need to be able to say what they want changed. I don't think we've even gotten a good definition of the problem (and I've been begging for it on multiple threads), but I know for a fact I haven't heard a single person articulate what they'd like to see be done about it. Spend some time thinking about what you think the problem is, and what you want done about it . . . and then post those things here so we can discuss.


A few pertinent facts to ponder while you're framing the issue (and that relate to your statement above):

*In the last 5 years, police have shot and killed twice as many unarmed white people as they have black people. (Before you get the urge to point out the difference in population numbers, everyone already knows that rebuttal is a meaningless argument. What matters is the proportion of the violent criminal population a group represents. See next point.)

*Black men, who make up 6% of the population, commit 45% of the murders in the U.S. They commit 50% of the violent crime.

*A police officer is 19x more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by a police officer.

Any definition of the problem needs to take those statistical truths into account when framing the issue.
Oldbear83
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Hello again, engiBear. I'd like to post my thoughts regarding the matter of skin color and personal experience. This may help my earlier comment make sense.

My parents raised me to think about people as individuals, and to judge their personal character by how they acted rather than on appearances or social labels. My father traveled to many countries in Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Asia as part of his work, and he spoke seven different languages, which he said helped him understand people by hearing them directly. He led a Bible study for Vietnamese immigrants in the late 1970s at South Main Baptist Church in Houston, and helped a number of them become citizens.

This led to a shock for me, therefore, when I introduced my fiance to my parents. They had known we were dating but somehow did not expect us to marry. My father took strong exception to my fiance's Asian heritage, and bluntly asked me if I knew what I was getting into by marrying 'one of those people'.

I did not talk to my father for several weeks after that, and I still regard that incident as my deepest disappointment in the man. But it helped me understand that even good people with deep moral convictions can have blind spots in their experience and perspective. I have seen that point reinforced in my relationships with many people, and so I have always worked to discover and remedy such blind spots in my own experience.

Over the years, I have been privileged to know and become friends with many people from a wide variety of backgrounds and environments. I have also encountered people who were racist, bitter, sometimes out and out thugs, and I observe that there is no environment which is free of such people. I had a friend who lived in Dallas who went to Lake Highlands High School and got beat up for asking out a girl who was dating the football team quarterback. The QB was white, his family was rich, and he never saw so much as detention for breaking my friend's ribs. I knew a couple kids at Willowridge High School from when I was a baseball umpire who were in danger because they would not join a gang - they had to get rides home after games bc there were gangbangers looking for them on the street. I knew a couple Triad guys in Houston who ran drugs - one was killed by a rival group in '91. Thinking of gangs again, there was a street gang in the Heights who used to come watch high school games I worked as an umpire. Never a problem, at least for me, just a bunch of young men who liked to watch sports. I once put my job in danger by refusing to fire a gay floor manager who worked for me, not because I was defending gay rights per se, the Regional VP was a bigoted ****-head who expected everyone to kiss his ass and I refused to lose someone who the employees and customers loved. My point is not that I am perfect or don't have my own faceplants, but I do have a lot of experience, both from direct experience and from listening to my friends. My neighborhood has homeowners from all races and at least eight different countries, and we all get along fine because we all care about our families and being good neighbors to each other.

So I take it as a sign of lazy assumptions when some here - not you engiBear, but some here - assume false things about me, or anyone really, just because they think a few internet forum posts tell them everything about what that person has experienced or understands. It's easy but dumb for people to go after straw men rather than really listen to what someone else is saying, and in my experience skin color is often used as a predicate for those assumptions when the real cause of an issue lies in the specific individual's choices and actions.

No academic study can quantify real life.
Flaming Moderate
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Asian and Indian immigrants really should apologize for nuking fake emotional systematic racism claims.
engiBEAR
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Thank you for sharing. You certainly have a lot of life experience from which you speak.

I'll collect my thoughts and respond.
engiBEAR
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bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:



It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.

I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.

There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...

I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.

The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.

I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
All of that sounds great, and I don't disagree with any of it. But it's kind of a non-answer.

All you really said here is is that the problem, apparently, is that "people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances." I'll go with that as your starting point, but it requires some clarification. Dying at the hands of whom? Each other? Or are you referring to being killed by police? The latter is supposedly what the riots are all about, but it is fiction. People of color are not being killed by police disproportionately. (Notably, police, on the other hand, are being killed disproportionately by people of color). As you said . . . that's not someone's opinion, it is a statistic.

So I'm not sure your stated problem holds up to scrutiny. But even if it were true . . . what would you like to see done about it? What is the objective here? You didn't answer that. If people want to kick and scream about a perceived problem, they need to be able to say what they want changed. I don't think we've even gotten a good definition of the problem (and I've been begging for it on multiple threads), but I know for a fact I haven't heard a single person articulate what they'd like to see be done about it. Spend some time thinking about what you think the problem is, and what you want done about it . . . and then post those things here so we can discuss.


A few pertinent facts to ponder while you're framing the issue (and that relate to your statement above):

*In the last 5 years, police have shot and killed twice as many unarmed white people as they have black people. (Before you get the urge to point out the difference in population numbers, everyone already knows that rebuttal is a meaningless argument. What matters is the proportion of the violent criminal population a group represents. See next point.)

*Black men, who make up 6% of the population, commit 45% of the murders in the U.S. They commit 50% of the violent crime.

*A police officer is 19x more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by a police officer.

Any definition of the problem needs to take those statistical truths into account when framing the issue.
Your statistics actually support the point I am trying to make. I'll explain...

As you know with statistics, every sample (given a fair representation) will tend towards the average. And we've previously agreed that nothing about a person's skin color makes them any more or less intelligent, violent, hard-working, successful, or any other adjective.

With that in mind, there should be an equal proportion of populations represented in essentially every statistical category: from violent criminals and drug users, to CEOs, billionaires, government representatives, etc. Different races should have essentially equal average life expectancies, given their genetics and health shouldn't be better or worse based on their race or ethnicity.

But, as both of our statistics show, that's not the case. So my point, and one way of describing the "problem" that you've asked me to explain, is "WHY?".

Why, if all people are inherently equal, do the statistics skew so much against the favor of people of color? By statistical argument alone we should be asking these questions...especially given our country's history for racist tendencies. I'm not saying some wrongs haven't been righted, but we can't wipe our hands of this situation and act like things are fair and equal. They're simply still not.

It's easy to think something along the lines of "everyone is responsible for their choice(s)" -- and that is true, though it is often misused. I see it used as a way to explain the high proportion of black people who commit violent crimes, a statistic you cited (as a side note, I'm not necessarily including you in this group, as you haven't said this explicitly). I wonder why it doesn't also make us pause and question why the percentage of the white population doesn't match. Is it because whites are better behaved or are less violent? Certainly not, and we've established that.

In my opinion, asking the questions "why" leads you to listen and learn, ultimately realizing there is a "problem". Characterizing the problem more beyond that leads down lots of rabbit holes that would take more time than I have to give right now. What to do about it is even another discussion.
Doc Holliday
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engiBEAR said:

bearassnekkid said:

engiBEAR said:



It sounds like you and I came from similar backgrounds. I too had loving and involved parents, though we didn't have much money either. I had a better start than some but had disadvantages compared to others. It sounds like you did, too.

I used to think similarly to you. I thought "Why should I care if it largely doesn't affect me? The problem is too big so why should I even try to understand?" For context, I've largely voted red during my life, am an active business person and pro-capitalist, and was born and raised in the south. It's not like I'm some "leftist nutjob". I just admitted that things weren't adding up and started trying to find out why. I haven't solved the issue and am not saying I'm going to. But the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. So let's start there.

There are a lot of things I would ultimately like to see happen but would take quite a while to type. I'll just start with what I feel is a good first step...

I would like each of us to be willing to admit that we have implicit biases based on our background and that it is possible (even likely) that some of them are not accurate. Then do the work to read and listen to people who have studied these topics -- in this case, multiple topics involving race. The key is being willing to unlearn something that isn't true and relearn what is. Not everything you and I learned is false, but some things are.

The reality is that people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances. That's not someone's opinion...it is a statistic. I finally decided that if I really am going to profess to care about people above anything else, I should learn why that is. I'm sure you would agree with me that there is nothing inherently better or worse about a person based on the color of their skin. So if it's not "nature" (i.e. genetics, intelligence, etc.) then it must be some other cause. This is far from my area of expertise, so I consulted numerous people and resources that have dedicated their lives to these topics.

I'm just asking that you and some others on this board do the same.
All of that sounds great, and I don't disagree with any of it. But it's kind of a non-answer.

All you really said here is is that the problem, apparently, is that "people of color are imprisoned and are dying at a disproportionately high rate based on their circumstances." I'll go with that as your starting point, but it requires some clarification. Dying at the hands of whom? Each other? Or are you referring to being killed by police? The latter is supposedly what the riots are all about, but it is fiction. People of color are not being killed by police disproportionately. (Notably, police, on the other hand, are being killed disproportionately by people of color). As you said . . . that's not someone's opinion, it is a statistic.

So I'm not sure your stated problem holds up to scrutiny. But even if it were true . . . what would you like to see done about it? What is the objective here? You didn't answer that. If people want to kick and scream about a perceived problem, they need to be able to say what they want changed. I don't think we've even gotten a good definition of the problem (and I've been begging for it on multiple threads), but I know for a fact I haven't heard a single person articulate what they'd like to see be done about it. Spend some time thinking about what you think the problem is, and what you want done about it . . . and then post those things here so we can discuss.


A few pertinent facts to ponder while you're framing the issue (and that relate to your statement above):

*In the last 5 years, police have shot and killed twice as many unarmed white people as they have black people. (Before you get the urge to point out the difference in population numbers, everyone already knows that rebuttal is a meaningless argument. What matters is the proportion of the violent criminal population a group represents. See next point.)

*Black men, who make up 6% of the population, commit 45% of the murders in the U.S. They commit 50% of the violent crime.

*A police officer is 19x more likely to be killed by a black person than a black person is to be killed by a police officer.

Any definition of the problem needs to take those statistical truths into account when framing the issue.
Your statistics actually support the point I am trying to make. I'll explain...

As you know with statistics, every sample (given a fair representation) will tend towards the average. And we've previously agreed that nothing about a person's skin color makes them any more or less intelligent, violent, hard-working, successful, or any other adjective.

With that in mind, there should be an equal proportion of populations represented in essentially every statistical category: from violent criminals and drug users, to CEOs, billionaires, government representatives, etc. Different races should have essentially equal average life expectancies, given their genetics and health shouldn't be better or worse based on their race or ethnicity.

But, as both of our statistics show, that's not the case. So my point, and one way of describing the "problem" that you've asked me to explain, is "WHY?".

Why, if all people are inherently equal, do the statistics skew so much against the favor of people of color? By statistical argument alone we should be asking these questions...especially given our country's history for racist tendencies. I'm not saying some wrongs haven't been righted, but we can't wipe our hands of this situation and act like things are fair and equal. They're simply still not.

It's easy to think something along the lines of "everyone is responsible for their choice(s)" -- and that is true, though it is often misused. I see it used as a way to explain the high proportion of black people who commit violent crimes, a statistic you cited (as a side note, I'm not necessarily including you in this group, as you haven't said this explicitly). I wonder why it doesn't also make us pause and question why the percentage of the white population doesn't match. Is it because whites are better behaved or are less violent? Certainly not, and we've established that.

In my opinion, asking the questions "why" leads you to listen and learn, ultimately realizing there is a "problem". Characterizing the problem more beyond that leads down lots of rabbit holes that would take more time than I have to give right now. What to do about it is even another discussion.

Bro we're way past understanding 'why'.

Why doesn't the racial data match percentages equally across the races? Because people that live in those areas had good intentioned policies that actually caused a massive breakdown of those areas where certain ethnicities lived for decades.

Yes, there are hidden backfires to things like raising minimum wages, mass regulations and so on that drive people away or trap them in poverty. The proper time for reparations was the 1960's (there was no family wealth to draw from because of the government) so the black community could have an escape plan from big government and heavy bureaucratic states causing the problem.

Now imagine this on a massive scale nationwide with all sorts of policies that sound great on paper but actually destroy an entire race's ability to escape.

#WalkAway
Porteroso
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Canada2017 said:

Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:

Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:



When are people going to apologize for all the looted stores , stolen cars, beaten people , burned businesses , and murdered policemen ?

When are people going to apologize for abusing drugs and alcohol, for abandoning their children , for not leading productive lives ?


Never
You're simply having a different conversation than I am. In my reality, all sorts of dads abandon their children and abuse alcohol. Are you really claiming that it's only black dads that do those things? Pretty incredible that we're trying to have a conversation about racial bias in cop killings, and you're over there thinking "black people, oh yeah I remember what fox news said. They're all busy abandoning their kids and boozing up."


Where did i say only black people ?

YOU made that assumption.

The ones who need to 'apologize' are the ones who fail to live up to today's responsibilities.

And there are millions of them lounging around ....of all skin tones .

You were replying to my post about generational poverty often being traced back to slavery, right? Are the dots really so hard to connect, or was your post a random one off that's in the wrong thread?
Hope you are impressing yourself with this tripe because you sure aren't impressing me .

What is your background.....have you spent any significant amount of time overseas ?
I'm not into the doxxing scene, but thanks for the offer. I asked you a question, and you're not impressed? What kind of response is that? There's enough of "you can't have that opinion because you're white" or "... black" going around right now, I get to have my opinion.

If your point was really that regardless of race, dads who abandon their children need to apologize, sure. You're right, they all do. It just seems suspect that you'd be making the comment without relation to race, given the current thread and the current social climate.
Porteroso
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Quote:

"There are some very good minds on each side, who go to trouble to present their arguments rationally. There are also others who do nothing but troll or attack. You may notice I have take Florda to task from time to time for such comments, but literally none of you on the left ever challenge someone on your own side to raise their game.

As long as you continue such hypocrisy, it's impossible to consider you interested in a real discussion."



That hypocrisy is your behavior right now, Porteroso. But moving on:
Wait, what? Where is the hypocrisy? Can you remember what we're talking about?

Quote:

This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."


Quote:

Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.

Quote:

I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?
I just want this one question answered. Is that too hard? How does ignorance "succinctly describe" generational poverty?
Quote:

(oldbear dismisses the necessity of Affirmative Action)... and yet the groups which have received the most are unwilling to address their own internal issues. Black on black crime remains the greatest criminal threat in the country, the lack of nuclear families keeps generations of Americans in poverty and lacing a vital stability in their hopes and dreams.
I'm curious, what does this mean? Black people won't deal with their "own internal issues?" On the face of it, it sounds incredibly backwards. I can let you explain why you think that violence isn't an issue independent of skin color, one that all of us need to be dealing with in our own neighborhoods.

I'll let you explain why familial breakup is a black person problem, and not something that plagues every human.

The rest of your post is a weak attempt at discrediting the idea of systemic racism. I think the term is far overused, but to deny that the general "system," or more accurately, the economy, the education system, the job market, the justice system, is racist, is ridiculous, and we can clear that up right away with objective metrics.

I haven't even gotten to the point where I talk much about my own opinion, I've been asking you now for several posts why you think ignorance describes generational poverty.
D. C. Bear
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Porteroso said:

Quote:

"There are some very good minds on each side, who go to trouble to present their arguments rationally. There are also others who do nothing but troll or attack. You may notice I have take Florda to task from time to time for such comments, but literally none of you on the left ever challenge someone on your own side to raise their game.

As long as you continue such hypocrisy, it's impossible to consider you interested in a real discussion."



That hypocrisy is your behavior right now, Porteroso. But moving on:
Wait, what? Where is the hypocrisy? Can you remember what we're talking about?

Quote:

This is a particularly ignorant viewpoint... There are entire neighborhoods, zip codes, where most people can trace the root of their generational poverty straight back to slavery."


Quote:

Fascinating. The first sentence of that post succinctly describes the second sentence.

Quote:

I must be lost, or is the repub talking point these days that poverty = ignorance?
I just want this one question answered. Is that too hard? How does ignorance "succinctly describe" generational poverty?
Quote:

(oldbear dismisses the necessity of Affirmative Action)... and yet the groups which have received the most are unwilling to address their own internal issues. Black on black crime remains the greatest criminal threat in the country, the lack of nuclear families keeps generations of Americans in poverty and lacing a vital stability in their hopes and dreams.
I'm curious, what does this mean? Black people won't deal with their "own internal issues?" On the face of it, it sounds incredibly backwards. I can let you explain why you think that violence isn't an issue independent of skin color, one that all of us need to be dealing with in our own neighborhoods.

I'll let you explain why familial breakup is a black person problem, and not something that plagues every human.

The rest of your post is a weak attempt at discrediting the idea of systemic racism. I think the term is far overused, but to deny that the general "system," or more accurately, the economy, the education system, the job market, the justice system, is racist, is ridiculous, and we can clear that up right away with objective metrics.

I haven't even gotten to the point where I talk much about my own opinion, I've been asking you now for several posts why you think ignorance describes generational poverty.


While familial breakup is not exclusively an African American issue, it is a much more pronounced issue when it comes to African American children.

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race?loc=1&loct=1#1/any/false/37/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431

I am going to assume the Annie E. Casey Foundation is providing legitimate data.
Porteroso
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D. C. Bear said:


While familial breakup is not exclusively an African American issue, it is a much more pronounced issue when it comes to African American children.

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race?loc=1&loct=1#1/any/false/37/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431

I am going to assume the Annie E. Casey Foundation is providing legitimate data.
I'm not saying all cultures experience all problems equally. I want to understand, before going off on oldbear, why he thinks blacks are "unwilling to address their own internal issues."

That's an incredible statement on several levels, and I'm blown away enough that I want to understand more of why he thinks that, or even finds that to be an acceptable thing to say. I get that it's the internet and all, but still.

P.S. Oldbear if you could still answer the original question, thanks.
D. C. Bear
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Porteroso said:

D. C. Bear said:


While familial breakup is not exclusively an African American issue, it is a much more pronounced issue when it comes to African American children.

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race?loc=1&loct=1#1/any/false/37/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431

I am going to assume the Annie E. Casey Foundation is providing legitimate data.
I'm not saying all cultures experience all problems equally. I want to understand, before going off on oldbear, why he thinks blacks are "unwilling to address their own internal issues."

That's an incredible statement on several levels, and I'm blown away enough that I want to understand more of why he thinks that, or even finds that to be an acceptable thing to say. I get that it's the internet and all, but still.


I was answering you question about familial breakup.

The problem with his statement is that it treats an entire ethnic group as monolithic. There are, however, a wide number of problems in the African American community that tend to be more severe than those same problems in the broader population. There are also those who benefit from a poor relationship between law enforcement and the African American community.
Porteroso
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D. C. Bear said:

Porteroso said:

D. C. Bear said:


While familial breakup is not exclusively an African American issue, it is a much more pronounced issue when it comes to African American children.

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race?loc=1&loct=1#1/any/false/37/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431

I am going to assume the Annie E. Casey Foundation is providing legitimate data.
I'm not saying all cultures experience all problems equally. I want to understand, before going off on oldbear, why he thinks blacks are "unwilling to address their own internal issues."

That's an incredible statement on several levels, and I'm blown away enough that I want to understand more of why he thinks that, or even finds that to be an acceptable thing to say. I get that it's the internet and all, but still.
I was answering you question about familial breakup.

The problem with his statement is that it treats an entire ethnic group as monolithic. There are, however, a wide number of problems in the African American community that tend to be more severe than those same problems in the broader population. There are also those who benefit from a poor relationship between law enforcement and the African American community.
I agree that communities tend to have different struggles. We'll just see what he says. I really wonder how he knows so much about all black Americans, internally, that he can tell us they won't face their problems. Like I said, an incredible statement.

Black Americans face 1 major challenge, generational poverty. For the sake of argument, take an educated white person. If that person falls into poverty for more than 3 years, the chances of regaining economic stability are very slim. Many black Americans coming from generational poverty never have a real shot. We can talk (and many on this forum do) about how everyone has the chance to make something of themselves, but it's not really true, if you've ever cared to even read an article about it. Poverty, especially when it's the only condition your entire family, and your friends, have ever known, is incredibly difficult to come out of. And it doesn't just affect blacks, there are Hispanic, white, Native American families that deal with it, and it's hard for any of them to come out of it.

My opinion is that we could combat poverty in a way that doesn't account for race, just bend over backwards at the local, state, and federal level, to give anyone in poverty a real chance at a great education. You could get all of America behind that, but before we can talk about that, we have to recognize that poverty is a problem, and we need to recognize that for many reasons, generational poverty, especially generational poverty that traces its roots back to slavery, is really, really bad for society.

And here we are, back at square one. Oldbear, why does "ignorance" so succinctly describe "generational poverty that traces its roots back to slavery?"
Canada2017
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Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:

Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:

Porteroso said:

Canada2017 said:



When are people going to apologize for all the looted stores , stolen cars, beaten people , burned businesses , and murdered policemen ?

When are people going to apologize for abusing drugs and alcohol, for abandoning their children , for not leading productive lives ?


Never
You're simply having a different conversation than I am. In my reality, all sorts of dads abandon their children and abuse alcohol. Are you really claiming that it's only black dads that do those things? Pretty incredible that we're trying to have a conversation about racial bias in cop killings, and you're over there thinking "black people, oh yeah I remember what fox news said. They're all busy abandoning their kids and boozing up."


Where did i say only black people ?

YOU made that assumption.

The ones who need to 'apologize' are the ones who fail to live up to today's responsibilities.

And there are millions of them lounging around ....of all skin tones .

You were replying to my post about generational poverty often being traced back to slavery, right? Are the dots really so hard to connect, or was your post a random one off that's in the wrong thread?
Hope you are impressing yourself with this tripe because you sure aren't impressing me .

What is your background.....have you spent any significant amount of time overseas ?
I'm not into the doxxing scene, but thanks for the offer. I asked you a question, and you're not impressed? What kind of response is that? There's enough of "you can't have that opinion because you're white" or "... black" going around right now, I get to have my opinion.

If your point was really that regardless of race, dads who abandon their children need to apologize, sure. You're right, they all do. It just seems suspect that you'd be making the comment without relation to race, given the current thread and the current social climate.


No real world experience .

'Ignore'



nein51
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Results from Robin Hood have shown that money doesn't fix schools. The problems that create a poor school environment are much more complex than money can fix (assuming you meant money when you said bend over backwards because everyone always means more money).

Greatest predictors of educational success are things like educated parents (which has been tied to having any expectation of success, not going to college is not an option, for example), two parent households, attendance and the list goes on. Money is a factor but only in the sense that school districts with money tend to be in areas where success is not an option, both parents are in home and attending class is an expectation.

Fixing poorly performing schools (of which there are literally thousands; which also disproportionately effect Latinos) is incredibly complex.
Oldbear83
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Porteroso said:

D. C. Bear said:


While familial breakup is not exclusively an African American issue, it is a much more pronounced issue when it comes to African American children.

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bar/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race?loc=1&loct=1#1/any/false/37/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/431

I am going to assume the Annie E. Casey Foundation is providing legitimate data.
I'm not saying all cultures experience all problems equally. I want to understand, before going off on oldbear, why he thinks blacks are "unwilling to address their own internal issues."

That's an incredible statement on several levels, and I'm blown away enough that I want to understand more of why he thinks that, or even finds that to be an acceptable thing to say. I get that it's the internet and all, but still.

P.S. Oldbear if you could still answer the original question, thanks.
Maybe you could make the effort to read what I have already posted, in total and in context, Porteroso?

Snipping out bits here and there will not help you understand.

I'm not trying to be snide, but I have posted a great deal on this thread, but you seem to just ignore what you cannot attack.

That's not going to lead to much of a discussion.

But with regard to your 'internal issues', every group has those. Police departments, for example, need to decide how they will deal with bad actors in their ranks. I have been friends with LEOs for decades, and have heard stories about wrongdoing by cops from cops, in addition to some personal experience with both really honorable and really disgusting people wearing badges. We can talk all we want about regulating or controlling from the outside, but the truth is that the first and best line of defense against police brutality starts with the officers themselves. I can promise you that no effective reform will come from HPD Chief Acevedo or Mayor Turner at HPD, despite the brutal murder of two innocent Houstonians last year; it has to come from the ranks.

Similarly, each community must address problems in their own numbers. The most serious threat to a black person, statistically, is another black person, but black-on-black violence is given almost no attention by the political and social groups. That means the greatest danger is essentially unaddressed, and has been for decades.

Yes, other demographics have their own problems and failings to address, but for this thread the topic is the threat of violence to blacks, and like it or not the most progress that matters will have to come from within that community.
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