LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"So was Jesus wrong about himself, then? He specifically stated he had flesh and bones, and that he was NOT a spirit.

Are the gospels a lie, then? They testify to the fact that the disciples felt Jesus' body and saw him eat food."

But he passes through walls. Both/and?

---

47, was Phillip spirit? Was he man? Was he part of a miracle?

Acts 39: Now when they came up out of the water, (M)the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

---

. Once again 47

---

If one stands in the 1st century with its world view then "Yes' Phillip is spirit but that's not the point. Thee point is Good News was moving into new Gentile country (the Eunuch) and Phillip was needed elsewhere, That's the point, not Phillip flying around like a ghost..

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"So was Jesus wrong about himself, then? He specifically stated he had flesh and bones, and that he was NOT a spirit.

Are the gospels a lie, then? They testify to the fact that the disciples felt Jesus' body and saw him eat food."

But he passes through walls. Both/and?

---

47, was Phillip spirit? Was he man? Was he part of a miracle?

Acts 39: Now when they came up out of the water, (M)the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

---

. Once again 47

---

If one stands in the 1st century with its world view then "Yes' Phillip is spirit but that's not the point. Thee point is Good News was moving into new Gentile country (the Eunuch) and Phillip was needed elsewhere, That's the point, not Phillip flying around like a ghost..

---

47, do you believe Jesus Christ was fully man and is fully God? If so, could He not be fully physical and fully trans-physical?

The hope of the Jewish people was that God would send a messiah to rescue them from their Roman oppressors. Many placed that hope in Jesus of Nazareth. From His teachings and from His miracles performed, the expectations of the Jewish people was extremely high as we see from His triumphant entry on Palm Sunday. Imagine how their hopes and dreams must have felt crushed as they walked past Calvary to see their hoped for Messiah hanging on a cross. For a first-century Jew, that was certainly not their image of a messiah. That is devastation!

What you want us to believe is, ordinary people's memories of His teachings, inspired them so much that they gave up all they had to share the gospel, at great physical risk, throughout the known world all the while teaching a physical resurrection. That's either some impressive memories or some really strange group hallucination.

Alister Begg does a much better job of this than I. I challenge you to listen to the following, in full.

The Resurrection (Part 1 of 4) - Program - Truth For Life https://www.truthforlife.org/broadcasts/2021/03/29/the-resurrection-part-1-of-4-/

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

Let's take a moment to digest what you're saying here just so we're all clear-

You are saying that the disciples saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, in that something was there that either reflected light, or light emanated from it, and that physical light entered their eyeballs and was focused on their retinas, and that image was sent to their brains to be processed, which deciphered color, shape, and movement, correct?

In other words, how the human body normally processes vision, that's what went on with the disciples as they were looking at the risen Jesus...this is what you are saying you believe, correct?

'47, How does a first century Jew find a Messiah in "He lives within my heart"?

How does one explain the 500 witnesses?

How does one explain the broiled fish on the shoreline?

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"So was Jesus wrong about himself, then? He specifically stated he had flesh and bones, and that he was NOT a spirit.

Are the gospels a lie, then? They testify to the fact that the disciples felt Jesus' body and saw him eat food."

But he passes through walls. Both/and?

---

47, was Phillip spirit? Was he man? Was he part of a miracle?

Acts 39: Now when they came up out of the water, (M)the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

---

. Once again 47

---

If one stands in the 1st century with its world view then "Yes' Phillip is spirit but that's not the point. Thee point is Good News was moving into new Gentile country (the Eunuch) and Phillip was needed elsewhere, That's the point, not Phillip flying around like a ghost..

---

I understand the point. You are saying a "resurrected christ" was spirit and Phillip was spirit and the church exploded into existence from some group hallucinations that you call spirit. Tell me where I am wrong please.

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

This is a squishy way of saying that a physical resurrection did not happen, without actually coming out and saying it. By couching it in terms of an inward, spiritual experience of the individual, you can still maintain there was a "resurrection" (albeit inside people's hearts) without admitting to an outright rejection of the central tenet of the Christian faith - that Christ died and rose again.

This all comes back to the unanswered question I posed above - what makes Jesus a deity? I believe we have your answer to that question: absolutely nothing. For you, Christ possesses no supernatural, deific qualities. He died just like every other mortal man. In short, your Jesus is no different than any other good man who inspired followers. His teachings may "live" inside our heats, but he, like them, is not alive in any physical sense.

In short, I see no evidence that you believe in the God of scripture, nor any evidence that you are in fact Christian - at least as the Bible defines it.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

"So was Jesus wrong about himself, then? He specifically stated he had flesh and bones, and that he was NOT a spirit.

Are the gospels a lie, then? They testify to the fact that the disciples felt Jesus' body and saw him eat food."

But he passes through walls. Both/and?

---

47, was Phillip spirit? Was he man? Was he part of a miracle?

Acts 39: Now when they came up out of the water, (M)the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

---

. Once again 47

---

If one stands in the 1st century with its world view then "Yes' Phillip is spirit but that's not the point. Thee point is Good News was moving into new Gentile country (the Eunuch) and Phillip was needed elsewhere, That's the point, not Phillip flying around like a ghost..

---

47, do you believe Jesus Christ was fully man and is fully God? If so, could He not be fully physical and fully trans-physical?

The hope of the Jewish people was that God would send a messiah to rescue them from their Roman oppressors. Many placed that hope in Jesus of Nazareth. From His teachings and from His miracles performed, the expectations of the Jewish people was extremely high as we see from His triumphant entry on Palm Sunday. Imagine how their hopes and dreams must have felt crushed as they walked past Calvary to see their hoped for Messiah hanging on a cross. For a first-century Jew, that was certainly not their image of a messiah. That is devastation!

What you want us to believe is, ordinary people's memories of His teachings, inspired them so much that they gave up all they had to share the gospel, at great physical risk, throughout the known world all the while teaching a physical resurrection. That's either some impressive memories or some really strange group hallucination.

Alister Begg does a much better job of this than I. I challenge you to listen to the following, in full.

The Resurrection (Part 1 of 4) - Program - Truth For Life https://www.truthforlife.org/broadcasts/2021/03/29/the-resurrection-part-1-of-4-/

---

You went right past my answer in your rush to argue. Please to my post first

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

This is a squishy way of saying that a physical resurrection did not happen, without actually coming out and saying it. By couching it in terms of an inward, spiritual experience of the individual, you can still maintain there was a "resurrection" (albeit inside people's hearts) without admitting to an outright rejection of the central tenet of the Christian faith - that Christ died and rose again.

This all comes back to the unanswered question I posed above - what makes Jesus a deity? I believe we have your answer to that question: absolutely nothing. For you, Christ possesses no supernatural, deific qualities. He died just like every other mortal man. In short, your Jesus is no different than any other good man who inspired followers. His teachings may "live" inside our heats, but he, like them, is not alive in any physical sense.

In short, I see no evidence that you believe in the God of scripture, nor any evidence that you are in fact Christian - at least as the Bible defines it.

---

What makes my answer squishy about the resurrection other than you disagree with it?
God is perfect transcendent love and Jesus embodied that prefect love. Perfect Love is what makes God, God and Jesus embodies that love. Deity is next perfect love.

Negative 47. I read your talking in circles. I'm good with just one circle. I don't need a merrie-go-round.

It's obvious to me, you do not believe in the God of the Bible or in the resurrected Christ Jesus. You treat the Bible like a menu; "I'd like a helping of grace, mercy and love . Can I substitute extra mercy in place of miracles?" It seems that what you don't understand is that you have created a god of your making that suits your wants, rather than the GOD of the Bible. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Negative 47. I read your talking in circles. I'm good with just one circle. I don't need a merrie-go-round.

It's obvious to me, you do not believe in the God of the Bible or in the resurrected Christ Jesus. You treat the Bible like a menu; "I'd like a helping of grace, mercy and love . Can I substitute extra mercy in place of miracles?" It seems that what you don't understand is that you have created a god of your making that suits your wants, rather than the GOD of the Bible. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

---

For your sake you are denying reality and physics a and I hope you begin to align belief with physics. God does not need your defense but God need your faith and love in a real world.

So, are you gonna answer me?

You said "absolutely yes" when i asked if the disciples saw the risen Jesus with their physical vision - that means their eyeballs actually received physical light rays onto their retinas and the image was physically sent to their brain, in the same way we see everyday objects like trees, people, etc.

By saying "absolutely yes", this is what you are saying, correct?

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Negative 47. I read your talking in circles. I'm good with just one circle. I don't need a merrie-go-round.

It's obvious to me, you do not believe in the God of the Bible or in the resurrected Christ Jesus. You treat the Bible like a menu; "I'd like a helping of grace, mercy and love . Can I substitute extra mercy in place of miracles?" It seems that what you don't understand is that you have created a god of your making that suits your wants, rather than the GOD of the Bible. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

---

For your sake you are denying reality and physics a and I hope you begin to align belief with physics. God does not need your defense but God need your faith and love in a real world.

---

"Space-time is not the root level of reality." 1st-century religionists understood this. 21st-century scientists are beginning to understand it as well.

Waco47 is making essentially the same argument made by John Shelby Spong in his book, Resurrection - Myth or Reality? (As anyone familiar with Spong knows, of course, his answer to that question was "myth.)

However, the notion that the Resurrection was purely a spiritual and not a physical phenomenon runs into insurmountable problems. First, the early Christians were unanimous in describing it as physical. They knew the difference between physical and spiritual phenomena. Second, a purely spiritual experience would not have motivated the early church to proclaim Christ's physical resurrection in the face of certain persecution and death. Third, how would a purely spiritual experience have been shared by numerous people?

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Negative 47. I read your talking in circles. I'm good with just one circle. I don't need a merrie-go-round.

It's obvious to me, you do not believe in the God of the Bible or in the resurrected Christ Jesus. You treat the Bible like a menu; "I'd like a helping of grace, mercy and love . Can I substitute extra mercy in place of miracles?" It seems that what you don't understand is that you have created a god of your making that suits your wants, rather than the GOD of the Bible. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

---

For your sake you are denying reality and physics a and I hope you begin to align belief with physics. God does not need your defense but God need your faith and love in a real world.

---

"Space-time is not the root level of reality." 1st-century religionists understood this. 21st-century scientists are beginning to understand it as well.

---

"Root level?" I don't know this phrase

"You won't find Jesus in the land of the dead. He is still with us.

The powers killed him but they couldn't stop him. They crucified him and buried him in a rich man's tomb. But imperial execution and a tomb couldn't hold him.

He's still loose in the world. He's still out there, still here, still recruiting people to share his passion for the Kingdom of God a transformed world here and now. It's not over."
Marcus Borg

Here is the key to our differences " "the Bible is a human product: it tells us how our religious ancestors saw things, not how God sees things." "But believing something to be true has nothing to do with whether it is true."
Marcus Borg

Waco1947 said:

---

Here is the key to our differences " "the Bible is a human product: it tells us how our religious ancestors saw things, not how God sees things." "But believing something to be true has nothing to do with whether it is true."
Marcus Borg

---

You're absolutely right - this IS the key to our differences.
Because nothing in that quote is even remotely Christian.
The bible is God inspired and even God directed. It is not merely a human product. Jesus told us directly how God sees things. A Christian believes this.
You aren't one.

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Negative 47. I read your talking in circles. I'm good with just one circle. I don't need a merrie-go-round.

It's obvious to me, you do not believe in the God of the Bible or in the resurrected Christ Jesus. You treat the Bible like a menu; "I'd like a helping of grace, mercy and love . Can I substitute extra mercy in place of miracles?" It seems that what you don't understand is that you have created a god of your making that suits your wants, rather than the GOD of the Bible. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

---

For your sake you are denying reality and physics a and I hope you begin to align belief with physics. God does not need your defense but God need your faith and love in a real world.

---

"Space-time is not the root level of reality." 1st-century religionists understood this. 21st-century scientists are beginning to understand it as well.

---

"Root level?" I don't know this phrase

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_directory

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Negative 47. I read your talking in circles. I'm good with just one circle. I don't need a merrie-go-round.

It's obvious to me, you do not believe in the God of the Bible or in the resurrected Christ Jesus. You treat the Bible like a menu; "I'd like a helping of grace, mercy and love . Can I substitute extra mercy in place of miracles?" It seems that what you don't understand is that you have created a god of your making that suits your wants, rather than the GOD of the Bible. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

---

For your sake you are denying reality and physics a and I hope you begin to align belief with physics. God does not need your defense but God need your faith and love in a real world.

---

"Space-time is not the root level of reality." 1st-century religionists understood this. 21st-century scientists are beginning to understand it as well.

---

"Root level?" I don't know this phrase

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_directory

---

I don't get the reality of a "root system?" It's a computer

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Negative 47. I read your talking in circles. I'm good with just one circle. I don't need a merrie-go-round.

It's obvious to me, you do not believe in the God of the Bible or in the resurrected Christ Jesus. You treat the Bible like a menu; "I'd like a helping of grace, mercy and love . Can I substitute extra mercy in place of miracles?" It seems that what you don't understand is that you have created a god of your making that suits your wants, rather than the GOD of the Bible. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

---

For your sake you are denying reality and physics a and I hope you begin to align belief with physics. God does not need your defense but God need your faith and love in a real world.

---

"Space-time is not the root level of reality." 1st-century religionists understood this. 21st-century scientists are beginning to understand it as well.

---

"Root level?" I don't know this phrase

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_directory

---

I don't get the reality of a "root system?" It's a computer

---

It's an analogy. The point is that the rules of physics aren't absolute.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Negative 47. I read your talking in circles. I'm good with just one circle. I don't need a merrie-go-round. Then show me your proof please?

It's obvious to me, you do not believe in the God of the Bible or in the resurrected Christ Jesus. You treat the Bible like a menu; "I'd like a helping of grace, mercy and love . Can I substitute extra mercy in place of miracles?" It seems that what you don't understand is that you have created a god of your making that suits your wants, rather than the GOD of the Bible. For your sake, I hope I'm wrong.

---

For your sake you are denying reality and physics a and I hope you begin to align belief with physics. God does not need your defense but God need your faith and love in a real world.

---

"Space-time is not the root level of reality." 1st-century religionists understood this. 21st-century scientists are beginning to understand it as well.

---

"Root level?" I don't know this phrase

---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_directory

---

I don't get the reality of a "root system?" It's a computer

---

It's an analogy. The point is that the rules of physics aren't absolute.

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

This is a squishy way of saying that a physical resurrection did not happen, without actually coming out and saying it. By couching it in terms of an inward, spiritual experience of the individual, you can still maintain there was a "resurrection" (albeit inside people's hearts) without admitting to an outright rejection of the central tenet of the Christian faith - that Christ died and rose again.

This all comes back to the unanswered question I posed above - what makes Jesus a deity? I believe we have your answer to that question: absolutely nothing. For you, Christ possesses no supernatural, deific qualities. He died just like every other mortal man. In short, your Jesus is no different than any other good man who inspired followers. His teachings may "live" inside our heats, but he, like them, is not alive in any physical sense.

In short, I see no evidence that you believe in the God of scripture, nor any evidence that you are in fact Christian - at least as the Bible defines it.

---

What makes my answer squishy about the resurrection other than you disagree with it?
God is perfect transcendent love and Jesus embodied that prefect love. Perfect Love is what makes God, God and Jesus embodies that love. Deity is next perfect love.

---

It's squishy because you don't actually believe in Christ's physical resurrection. You do not believe he was truly raised from dead.

For you, God is more of an idea or an emotion. He does not truly exist, other than in people's minds. And for you, that is where his "resurrection," as you would term it, occurred - in our hearts and minds. It allows you to represent to your congregation that you believe in Christianity's central tenets when the truth is you believe nothing of the sort.

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

This is a squishy way of saying that a physical resurrection did not happen, without actually coming out and saying it. By couching it in terms of an inward, spiritual experience of the individual, you can still maintain there was a "resurrection" (albeit inside people's hearts) without admitting to an outright rejection of the central tenet of the Christian faith - that Christ died and rose again.

This all comes back to the unanswered question I posed above - what makes Jesus a deity? I believe we have your answer to that question: absolutely nothing. For you, Christ possesses no supernatural, deific qualities. He died just like every other mortal man. In short, your Jesus is no different than any other good man who inspired followers. His teachings may "live" inside our heats, but he, like them, is not alive in any physical sense.

In short, I see no evidence that you believe in the God of scripture, nor any evidence that you are in fact Christian - at least as the Bible defines it.

---

What makes my answer squishy about the resurrection other than you disagree with it?
God is perfect transcendent love and Jesus embodied that prefect love. Perfect Love is what makes God, God and Jesus embodies that love. Deity is next perfect love.

---

It's squishy because you don't actually believe in Christ's physical resurrection. You do not believe he was truly raised from dead.

For you, God is more of an idea or an emotion. He does not truly exist, other than in people's minds. And for you, that is where his "resurrection," as you would term it, occurred - in our hearts and minds. It allows you to represent to your congregation that you believe in Christianity's central tenets when the truth is you believe nothing of the sort.

---

No, my God in Christ died on the cross that's not emotion. That's pain and sacrifice. My God is is present and that's real. See the OP

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

This is a squishy way of saying that a physical resurrection did not happen, without actually coming out and saying it. By couching it in terms of an inward, spiritual experience of the individual, you can still maintain there was a "resurrection" (albeit inside people's hearts) without admitting to an outright rejection of the central tenet of the Christian faith - that Christ died and rose again.

This all comes back to the unanswered question I posed above - what makes Jesus a deity? I believe we have your answer to that question: absolutely nothing. For you, Christ possesses no supernatural, deific qualities. He died just like every other mortal man. In short, your Jesus is no different than any other good man who inspired followers. His teachings may "live" inside our heats, but he, like them, is not alive in any physical sense.

In short, I see no evidence that you believe in the God of scripture, nor any evidence that you are in fact Christian - at least as the Bible defines it.

---

What makes my answer squishy about the resurrection other than you disagree with it?
God is perfect transcendent love and Jesus embodied that prefect love. Perfect Love is what makes God, God and Jesus embodies that love. Deity is next perfect love.

---

It's squishy because you don't actually believe in Christ's physical resurrection. You do not believe he was truly raised from dead.

For you, God is more of an idea or an emotion. He does not truly exist, other than in people's minds. And for you, that is where his "resurrection," as you would term it, occurred - in our hearts and minds. It allows you to represent to your congregation that you believe in Christianity's central tenets when the truth is you believe nothing of the sort.

---

No, my God in Christ died on the cross that's not emotion. That's pain and sacrifice. My God is is present and that's real. See the OP

---

God in Christ?

If God spoke and performed acts through Christ, then God manipulated the physical realm. There's no way around this. Jesus had to physically move his body and his mouth in order to do and say things. God's will was manifested physically through him in this way, including going to the cross. You believe this, right? Or no?

If God CAN'T control the physical realm, then Jesus was just a bunch of atoms and molecules, and whatever he said and did was only the result of deterministic physics that was set in motion from the moment of the Big Bang (which of course, God couldn't have anything to do with). God would not have been able to intervene in this process in order to effect His will, such as communicate to us through Jesus' words and actions, or send Jesus to the cross. If this is true, then there would be no meaning in what Jesus said or did outside of what meaning we create for ourselves. There would be no reason to believe that Jesus had anything to do with God. And certainly no reason to worship him, or "believe" in him.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

This is a squishy way of saying that a physical resurrection did not happen, without actually coming out and saying it. By couching it in terms of an inward, spiritual experience of the individual, you can still maintain there was a "resurrection" (albeit inside people's hearts) without admitting to an outright rejection of the central tenet of the Christian faith - that Christ died and rose again.

This all comes back to the unanswered question I posed above - what makes Jesus a deity? I believe we have your answer to that question: absolutely nothing. For you, Christ possesses no supernatural, deific qualities. He died just like every other mortal man. In short, your Jesus is no different than any other good man who inspired followers. His teachings may "live" inside our heats, but he, like them, is not alive in any physical sense.

In short, I see no evidence that you believe in the God of scripture, nor any evidence that you are in fact Christian - at least as the Bible defines it.

---

What makes my answer squishy about the resurrection other than you disagree with it?
God is perfect transcendent love and Jesus embodied that prefect love. Perfect Love is what makes God, God and Jesus embodies that love. Deity is next perfect love.

---

It's squishy because you don't actually believe in Christ's physical resurrection. You do not believe he was truly raised from dead.

For you, God is more of an idea or an emotion. He does not truly exist, other than in people's minds. And for you, that is where his "resurrection," as you would term it, occurred - in our hearts and minds. It allows you to represent to your congregation that you believe in Christianity's central tenets when the truth is you believe nothing of the sort.

---

No, my God in Christ died on the cross that's not emotion. That's pain and sacrifice. My God is is present and that's real. See the OP

---

God in Christ?

If God spoke and performed acts through Christ, then God manipulated the physical realm. There's no way around this. Jesus had to physically move his body and his mouth in order to do and say things. God's will was manifested physically through him in this way, including going to the cross. You believe this, right? Or no?

If God CAN'T control the physical realm, then Jesus was just a bunch of atoms and molecules, and whatever he said and did was only the result of deterministic physics that was set in motion from the moment of the Big Bang (which of course, God couldn't have anything to do with). God would not have been able to intervene in this process in order to effect His will, such as communicate to us through Jesus' words and actions, or send Jesus to the cross. If this is true, then there would be no meaning in what Jesus said or did outside of what meaning we create for ourselves. There would be no reason to believe that Jesus had anything to do with God. And certainly no reason to worship him, or "believe" in him.

---

You keep circling back an argument that I am not making. My argument is that God not manipulate atom - physics. God did not "manipulate" Jesus or anybody. We have free will God speaks to human hearts.
Prove to me God can manipulate an atom.
Your circular argument about the "Bible. Says so" doubles to "The Bible says so."

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

This is a squishy way of saying that a physical resurrection did not happen, without actually coming out and saying it. By couching it in terms of an inward, spiritual experience of the individual, you can still maintain there was a "resurrection" (albeit inside people's hearts) without admitting to an outright rejection of the central tenet of the Christian faith - that Christ died and rose again.

This all comes back to the unanswered question I posed above - what makes Jesus a deity? I believe we have your answer to that question: absolutely nothing. For you, Christ possesses no supernatural, deific qualities. He died just like every other mortal man. In short, your Jesus is no different than any other good man who inspired followers. His teachings may "live" inside our heats, but he, like them, is not alive in any physical sense.

In short, I see no evidence that you believe in the God of scripture, nor any evidence that you are in fact Christian - at least as the Bible defines it.

---

What makes my answer squishy about the resurrection other than you disagree with it?
God is perfect transcendent love and Jesus embodied that prefect love. Perfect Love is what makes God, God and Jesus embodies that love. Deity is next perfect love.

---

It's squishy because you don't actually believe in Christ's physical resurrection. You do not believe he was truly raised from dead.

For you, God is more of an idea or an emotion. He does not truly exist, other than in people's minds. And for you, that is where his "resurrection," as you would term it, occurred - in our hearts and minds. It allows you to represent to your congregation that you believe in Christianity's central tenets when the truth is you believe nothing of the sort.

---

No, my God in Christ died on the cross that's not emotion. That's pain and sacrifice. My God is is present and that's real. See the OP

---

God in Christ?

If God spoke and performed acts through Christ, then God manipulated the physical realm. There's no way around this. Jesus had to physically move his body and his mouth in order to do and say things. God's will was manifested physically through him in this way, including going to the cross. You believe this, right? Or no?

If God CAN'T control the physical realm, then Jesus was just a bunch of atoms and molecules, and whatever he said and did was only the result of deterministic physics that was set in motion from the moment of the Big Bang (which of course, God couldn't have anything to do with). God would not have been able to intervene in this process in order to effect His will, such as communicate to us through Jesus' words and actions, or send Jesus to the cross. If this is true, then there would be no meaning in what Jesus said or did outside of what meaning we create for ourselves. There would be no reason to believe that Jesus had anything to do with God. And certainly no reason to worship him, or "believe" in him.

---

You keep circling back an argument that I am not making. My argument is that God not manipulate atom - physics. God did not "manipulate" Jesus or anybody. We have free will God speaks to human hearts.
Prove to me God can manipulate an atom.
Your circular argument about the "Bible. Says so" doubles to "The Bible says so."

---

If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Dusty. Physics is eternal said, "But do YOU believe he walked through walls and disappeared suddenly as the gospels tell us, or do you not? I do not believe them as actuality, they violate the laws of physics. I believe that the report by the disciples reflects their 1st century view but the deeper importance that you ignore is that Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them. That appearance s their witness and I believe their witness, that is; to them Jesus was a real presence. Jesus is a real presence to me but not a presence that defies the physics. Please grasp the fact that the stories reflect two realities - What is reported as physical but more importantly, the faith event that is reported.

If you do believe, then how does that reconcile with physics of the 21st century,? It does not reconcile with physics now or in the 1st century. Physics is eternal. The laws weren't violated in the stories of the Old and New Testaments.
Biblical times were not "special times" where miracles existed. Physics then, now and not yet.

Tell us, or he actually didn't. Which do you believe? You didn't answer the question.
Asked and answered. Both. But I am not sure "which" is reference to..

Your own argument that Jesus was a spirit, not a physical body. You are creating a false straw man. To the disciples and the writers of the Gospels Jesus is physical and speaks about and acts out in his ministry the spiritual.

---

You said "Jesus overcame the grave to appear before them."

So, you believe the disciples actually saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes, correct? Jesus "appeared" was an actual physical event, that the disciples sensed with their physical vision, right?

---

Absolutely Yes but with one caveat they see with 1st century eyes.
If I were transported to the first century and maintained my 21st-century understandings I would not "see" what the disciples were seeing but I could see that they were overwhelmed with joy at. Christ's presence.

---

This is a squishy way of saying that a physical resurrection did not happen, without actually coming out and saying it. By couching it in terms of an inward, spiritual experience of the individual, you can still maintain there was a "resurrection" (albeit inside people's hearts) without admitting to an outright rejection of the central tenet of the Christian faith - that Christ died and rose again.

This all comes back to the unanswered question I posed above - what makes Jesus a deity? I believe we have your answer to that question: absolutely nothing. For you, Christ possesses no supernatural, deific qualities. He died just like every other mortal man. In short, your Jesus is no different than any other good man who inspired followers. His teachings may "live" inside our heats, but he, like them, is not alive in any physical sense.

In short, I see no evidence that you believe in the God of scripture, nor any evidence that you are in fact Christian - at least as the Bible defines it.

---

What makes my answer squishy about the resurrection other than you disagree with it?
God is perfect transcendent love and Jesus embodied that prefect love. Perfect Love is what makes God, God and Jesus embodies that love. Deity is next perfect love.

---

It's squishy because you don't actually believe in Christ's physical resurrection. You do not believe he was truly raised from dead.

For you, God is more of an idea or an emotion. He does not truly exist, other than in people's minds. And for you, that is where his "resurrection," as you would term it, occurred - in our hearts and minds. It allows you to represent to your congregation that you believe in Christianity's central tenets when the truth is you believe nothing of the sort.

---

No, my God in Christ died on the cross that's not emotion. That's pain and sacrifice. My God is is present and that's real. See the OP

---

A man can die on a cross. That doesn't make him God. The question is, was he resurrected, was he physically raised from the dead, and is he physically alive today (and not just in our hearts and minds)? And related to that question is, when we die, will our physical spirits see him in Heaven? Or do you even believe in Heaven?

Vote 47 for Texas Governor

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

---

The laws of physics apply equally to earthquakes and pebbles.

Using a science book to prove the power of God sounds like an idea that a religious fundamentalist would have.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

---

The laws of physics apply equally to earthquakes and pebbles.

Using a science book to prove the power of God sounds like an idea that a religious fundamentalist would have.

---

Which and as my point.