Proof of God or Presence of God?

6,628 Views | 205 Replies | Last: 13 days ago by Waco1947
Sam Lowry
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Waco1947 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.
The laws of physics apply equally to earthquakes and pebbles.

Using a science book to prove the power of God sounds like an idea that a religious fundamentalist would have.
Which and as my point.
Not on this thread, it isn't.
LIB,MR BEARS
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Waco1947 said:

Sam Lowry said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.
The laws of physics apply equally to earthquakes and pebbles.

Using a science book to prove the power of God sounds like an idea that a religious fundamentalist would have.
Which and as my point.
There is an "edit" feature that sober people often use. You should give it a try when your, you know... sober.
Waco1947
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Sam Lowry said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Busytarp reasoning
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

Dear Busy, However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.
The laws of physics apply equally to earthquakes and pebbles.

I think you confused my response to Busy with me. I am so sorry for my lack of of clarity. Please re-read my edit above.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Waco1947
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Uour premises:
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock.

So is that your logic?

However, Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Uour premises:
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock.

So is that your logic?

However, Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Florda_mike
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Funny how y'all keep working Waco!
Waco1947
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Uour premises:
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock.

So is that your logic?

However, Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
There is only one connection between spirit and physical-I exist through biology which is a science. Because I exist I am a human endowed with human rights. One of my rights is to lay claim to the spiritual world that God in Christ loves me and I am a person of worth
Waco1947
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Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
Waco1947
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Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Waco1947 said:

Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
So you base your reality and spirituality on Whitehead.

Christians base their reality and spirituality on God:
"I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host." - Isaiah 45:12






Did God move the rock, or not?



BusyTarpDuster2017
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Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Uour premises:
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock.

So is that your logic?

However, Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
There is only one connection between spirit and physical-I exist through biology which is a science. Because I exist I am a human endowed with human rights. One of my rights is to lay claim to the spiritual world that God in Christ loves me and I am a person of worth
Do you have free will over the control over your body? Could you raise your hand, for instance, by choice?
Waco1947
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
So you base your reality and spirituality on Whitehead.

Christians base their reality and spirituality on God:
"I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host." - Isaiah 45:12






Did God move the rock, or not?




.
So tell me about the grades of of reality. You ignore my well thought out answers.
Yes God can move a rock through a human. I am talking about rocks simply lying on the ground. Your answer must be the n a the physical reality we all live in. The Bible is not proof of science.
So can God create an earthquake!
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
So you base your reality and spirituality on Whitehead.

Christians base their reality and spirituality on God:
"I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host." - Isaiah 45:12






Did God move the rock, or not?




.
So tell me about the grades of of reality. You ignore my well thought out answers.
Yes God can move a rock through a human. I am talking about rocks simply lying on the ground. Your answer must be the n a the physical reality we all live in. The Bible is not proof of science.
So can God create an earthquake!

"Yes God can move a rock through a human."

Yes, but....

....how did God move the human, to move the rock??
Florda_mike
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Thread should be renamed to ......

As Waco turns .....

Or something to do with Waco1947
LIB,MR BEARS
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Did Jesus calm the storm
Did Jesus raise the dead
Multiply the fish and loaves
Give sight to the blind
And on and on and on
.
.
.
Did Jesus perform miracles then as we would understand miracles today?
Did just a bunch of backwards folks living in ancient times not understand what was going on?

Do you accept any miracles?

Do you deny all miracles?
Waco1947
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Did Jesus calm the storm
Did Jesus raise the dead
Multiply the fish and loaves
Give sight to the blind
And on and on and on
.
.
.
Did Jesus perform miracles then as we would understand miracles today?
Did just a bunch of backwards folks living in ancient times not understand what was going on?

Do you accept any miracles?

Do you deny all miracles?
What do you think is my answer?
Waco1947
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
So you base your reality and spirituality on Whitehead.

Christians base their reality and spirituality on God:
"I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host." - Isaiah 45:12






Did God move the rock, or not?




.
So tell me about the grades of of reality. You ignore my well thought out answers.
Yes God can move a rock through a human. I am talking about rocks simply lying on the ground. Your answer must be the n a the physical reality we all live in. The Bible is not proof of science.
So can God create an earthquake!

"Yes God can move a rock through a human."

Yes, but....

....how did God move the human, to move the rock??The Holy Spirit
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
So you base your reality and spirituality on Whitehead.

Christians base their reality and spirituality on God:
"I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host." - Isaiah 45:12






Did God move the rock, or not?




.
So tell me about the grades of of reality. You ignore my well thought out answers.
Yes God can move a rock through a human. I am talking about rocks simply lying on the ground. Your answer must be the n a the physical reality we all live in. The Bible is not proof of science.
So can God create an earthquake!

"Yes God can move a rock through a human."

Yes, but....

....how did God move the human, to move the rock??The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit?

How does a spirit move something physical??
jupiter
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Waco1947
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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
So you base your reality and spirituality on Whitehead.

Christians base their reality and spirituality on God:
"I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host." - Isaiah 45:12






Did God move the rock, or not?




.
So tell me about the grades of of reality. You ignore my well thought out answers.
Yes God can move a rock through a human. I am talking about rocks simply lying on the ground. Your answer must be the n a the physical reality we all live in. The Bible is not proof of science.
So can God create an earthquake!

"Yes God can move a rock through a human."

Yes, but....

....how did God move the human, to move the rock??The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit?

How does a spirit move something physical??
You answered that one yourself. Way back in the thread.
Waco1947
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jupiter said:



He is right.
BusyTarpDuster2017
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Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

Alfred North Whitehead Grades of existential reality and my reality and spirituality based on it.

1. Grade 1 - Physics- Natural forces i.e. gravity, electromagnetic fields, wind, water, erosion et. All responding to each other whether a human wills them to stop or not.
2. Grade 2 - Rocks, dirt, Mountains, inanimate objects on which physics acts.
3. Grade 3 is living beings me, you, my dog, etc. We are temporal - with a beginning date and an expiration date and we live in the NOW moment.
4. Grade 4 / We are human beings and of a different order by ability to think, write, speak. and we live this existential, now moment.
Physics act upon us too. For instance gravity holds us to the earth or wind can knock up down. Grades 1,2,3 do not "know" or "conceptualize." We, Grade 4 beings, feel, think, prayer, relate, etc and through those functions we influence, direct, or experience this moment.
5. The Bible Exegetical/Faith/Relational/Spiritual is Grade 5. All humans share and exist in this Grade 5 reality. For me, the proof of the Bible and its authority over is the transcendent love of God. It is a part of our lives and beyond our lives because God is a love beyond all human love in whom we have our hope.
As God transcends this world it means that God is here and beyond. God was most clearly seen in this world in Jesus Christ. God loves us and in Jesus God showed how much God loves us.
God also commanded we love (not suggested). Love especially self sacrificing love as shown by Jesus is the greatest sign of fulfilling God's love command.
So you base your reality and spirituality on Whitehead.

Christians base their reality and spirituality on God:
"I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host." - Isaiah 45:12






Did God move the rock, or not?




.
So tell me about the grades of of reality. You ignore my well thought out answers.
Yes God can move a rock through a human. I am talking about rocks simply lying on the ground. Your answer must be the n a the physical reality we all live in. The Bible is not proof of science.
So can God create an earthquake!

"Yes God can move a rock through a human."

Yes, but....

....how did God move the human, to move the rock??The Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit?

How does a spirit move something physical??
You answered that one yourself. Way back in the thread.
The Holy Spirit was YOUR answer. I'm asking you how that is possible, given that you don't believe God can move anything physical.

Think about it hard - between God's Holy Spirit communicating to a human, and that human picking up a rock, there is a transition point between something spiritual and something physical:


God ===> Holy Spirit ===> human "heart"/mind/soul ===> human brain activated ===> human physical action


We know that God's Holy Spirit is spirit. We also know that in order for a human brain to "sense" or "receive" that communication from the Spirit there must be a physical movement of atoms and molecules in that human's brain as its neurons "fire", or become activated - which is a physical event, ultimately leading to the physical movement of muscles to pick up the rock.

So at what point in that series of events above did the transition between spiritual and physical occur?
And how do you explain how it ocurred?

Any thoughts??
LIB,MR BEARS
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Waco1947 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

Did Jesus calm the storm
Did Jesus raise the dead
Multiply the fish and loaves
Give sight to the blind
And on and on and on
.
.
.
Did Jesus perform miracles then as we would understand miracles today?
Did just a bunch of backwards folks living in ancient times not understand what was going on?

Do you accept any miracles?

Do you deny all miracles?
What do you think is my answer?
No answer? Neither will I answer you.
Waco1947
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Your life and my life flow into each other as wave flows into wave, and unless there is peace and joy and freedom for you, there can be no real peace or joy or freedom for me. To see realitynot as we expect it to be but as it isis to see that unless we live for each other and in and through each other, we do not really live very satisfactorily: that there can really be life only where there really is, in just this sense, love. This is not just the way things ought to be. Most of the time it is not the way we want things to be. It is the way things are. And not for one instant do I believe that it is by accident that it is the way things are. That would be quite an accident.

-Originally published in The Magnificent Defeat and later in Listening to Your Life
LIB,MR BEARS
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Waco1947 said:

Your life and my life flow into each other as wave flows into wave, and unless there is peace and joy and freedom for you, there can be no real peace or joy or freedom for me. To see realitynot as we expect it to be but as it isis to see that unless we live for each other and in and through each other, we do not really live very satisfactorily: that there can really be life only where there really is, in just this sense, love. This is not just the way things ought to be. Most of the time it is not the way we want things to be. It is the way things are. And not for one instant do I believe that it is by accident that it is the way things are. That would be quite an accident.

-Originally published in The Magnificent Defeat and later in Listening to Your Life

So, if I understand you correctly, blah blah blah blah, blah blah, blah and/or blah love?

And what of the disciples and how they died?
JXL
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Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Uour premises:
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock.

So is that your logic?

However, Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.


To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible.



Can it be proven from the Bible that Jesus had power over wind and waves?
LIB,MR BEARS
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JXL said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Uour premises:
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock.

So is that your logic?

However, Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.


To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible.



Can it be proven from the Bible that Jesus had power over wind and waves?
eye witness accounts provide evidence not proof.

While you may be able to provide evidence that you had oatmeal this morning, you cannot provide proof.

Why do you want proof when there is plenty of eyewitness testimony.
LIB,MR BEARS
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Do you have proof that your wife loves you or just evidence?
Waco1947
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JXL said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

Waco1947 said:

BusyTarp "If we have free will, then that means our "heart" (a non-physical thing) can effect change in the physical realm, i.e. manipulate atoms in the way we "choose".

So if we can do it, why can't God?

Here, I'll prove God can manipulate an atom: God tells Jesus to pick up a rock. Jesus picks up the rock. Therefore, God moved the atoms in the rock from one place to another. God's will was manifested in the physical realm.

I made no circular argument about the bible. I merely showed how your beliefs are against what it says.

Waco1947
Premise 1 God tells Jesus

Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock. "is that your logic?'

However, "Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.
To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible. One looks at science books to understand these phenomena not the Bible.
Use a science book to prove God moves atoms. It is your claim God has the power to create earthquakes and heal people.

Did God cause the rock to move or not? Yes or no?

Think about it, Waco.
What we have here, is God's WILL, which is spirit, effecting change in the physical realm...right?
SPIRIT moved rock!!
According to your theology, how could there be a connection between spirit and physical like this??

It doesn't matter how small you think moving a rock is. If it is shown that God's Spirit moved a rock, it completely busts your claim that God can't manipulate anything physical!

So you've been proven wrong. Your theology has been proven wrong.
Uour premises:
Premise 1 God tells Jesus
Premise 2 Jesus moves the rock.
Conclusion: therefore God moves the atoms in the rock.

So is that your logic?

However, Moving rocks, even if it's Jesus, is of a different order than healing cancer or sending earthquakes.


To make a claim a God moves atoms in the human body or diverts bullets or sends earthquake cannot be proven by the Bible.



Can it be proven from the Bible that Jesus had power over wind and waves?
Sure from the Bible. But the over riding point to the wind and waves is faith.
Waco1947
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

Do you have proof that your wife loves you or just evidence?
To ask that question is to say God exists. And I believe God exists.
 
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