Looks Like It Is Time To Re-Write Baylor's History & Apologize

5,380 Views | 204 Replies | Last: 9 hrs ago by fadskier
Doc Holliday
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The Hound said:

If alumni donations are going to fund reports like this one then the school can expect for fewer donations in the future.

It would be hilarious to see Baylor follow Coca-Cola's lead and give a seminar on how we can all be "less white"
Some of the posters here are snakes and act like they don't want to follow the lead of Coca Cola as you pointed out, but secretly they do, and they know actions like going after the Baylor statue is the first step in a very slippery slope.

Right now they're telling us our fear or concern is unwarranted while institutions, universities, corporations and entertainment are crumbling all around us.
Porteroso
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BearTruth13 said:

Booray said:

fadskier said:

Booray said:

ATL Bear said:

Booray said:

One can be against removing statutes (particularly those on private grounds) and for giving full context to those memorialized. I am guessing that is what the result will be here. Y'all can keep perpetuating sanitized fairy tales and calling it history.


Sanitized fairy tales? Do tell.
A history of Baylor as a Christian institution that ignores the school's connection to slavery and racism is a sanitized fairy tale.
How was the institution connected to slavery and racism? I must missed something...sorry.


It was founded by a slave-owner and refused admittance to black students for 118 years, for starters


My job at Baylor was to give tours of campus to prospective students and their families. We would stop by the Baylor statue for a picture on the tour.

Do you think that would be a good time to say "this is a statue of our founder Judge Baylor. Like many in the 1800s, he was a slave owner. We feel that it is necessary to educate you on that fact. Now who wants to take a goofy picture on the statue?!" That won't be uncomfortable at all.

Maybe that's the point though. If the kids take a picture next to a statue, knowing nothing about it, and later realize who the person depicted actually was, they'd regret the picture?

I think knowledge is empowering. You don't really need to be telling kids that Judge Baylor was racist while giving campus tours, but you could mention that the campus is having an internal discussion about its roots, in an effort to be honest and transparent. Would that be so bad? Then the prospective students could inquire more if they want, later.

Knowledge doesn't truly hurt anyone other than those afraid of that particular knowledge.
Forest Bueller_bf
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beerman said:

Booray said:

nein51 said:

Just burn it down. I'd rather that than the horse**** changes we will surely make. If a group of academics can't see the harm in erasing history there's really no hope anyhow. Might we well just change the name to University A until someone comes up with a reason the letter A or the word university is racist or hurts someone's feelings in any way.
"Erasing history" is about the most amazingly ironic phrase you could use on this subject. The point of the exercise is to reveal history-what actually happened rather than some sanitized fairy tale. I am with those who say that "canceling" our ancestors based on current moral standards can be a bridge too far. But the idea we should pretend that only their praiseworthy actions shaped the world we live in is just as dumb.

For a bonus, it is also pretty surreal to complain about a "bunch of academics" giving input at a university.


I think it's ironic that you believe that BU has somehow "sanitized" history for well over 100 years to its constituents (students). I was taught over and over, in various departments, what I still feel like was in an accurate and uninhibited manner. I did not leave Baylor with any impression that the world we live in was shaped by men and women that were perfect in their methods, at the current time.

I also find it ironic that you would pick on the fact that someone would be skeptical of a "bunch of academics" giving the particular input the article referenced. There are certainly plenty of "academics" which I believe we all know means "profs and researchers" that are and would be more than capable of making a centric decisions regarding events that occurred in the 1800s and prior, but their track records say otherwise.

This is why Dr L makes the money she does and why she was chosen for the job, she needs to understand her audience, very clearly, as the impact for unwinding the history of Baylor, including the uncomfortable facts, could be devastating. There are plenty of ways to use past transgressions as teaching moments, and that would certainly fall into the capable hands of the "academics".
Looks like she might be searching for a different audience. Resets happen all the time. Just look at history.

Only time will tell what Baylor evolves into. It is obvious the Baylor of the future, will not be the Baylor of the past.

Carlos Cruz
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Regarding the people who take the position that we must all be "educated" on and confront the worst aspects of history and the darkest parts of the character of esteemed historical figures, do we get to do a deep dive into their history and hold their pasts up and pick them apart using a standard that seems right to us? If this sort of behavior really is beneficial and edifying, then why are not the people who want to rehash the past, reshape our stories, and sully the way we remember historical figures not giving us a complete view of their past and their shortcomings? If this exercise is a good thing, then why are the living not shining a light on themselves as brightly as they want to shine the light on the dead?
George Truett
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Thee University said:

You knew it was coming.

https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=222031


Taking a look at campus representations is totally consistent, and, in fact, demanded by the university's Christian mission.

Great work by the Regents and administration!
George Truett
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Booray said:

nein51 said:

Just burn it down. I'd rather that than the horse**** changes we will surely make. If a group of academics can't see the harm in erasing history there's really no hope anyhow. Might we well just change the name to University A until someone comes up with a reason the letter A or the word university is racist or hurts someone's feelings in any way.
"Erasing history" is about the most amazingly ironic phrase you could use on this subject. The point of the exercise is to reveal history-what actually happened rather than some sanitized fairy tale. I am with those who say that "canceling" our ancestors based on current moral standards can be a bridge too far. But the idea we should pretend that only their praiseworthy actions shaped the world we live in is just as dumb.

For a bonus, it is also pretty surreal to complain about a "bunch of academics" giving input at a university.
This.
George Truett
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tommie said:

Thee University said:

You knew it was coming.

https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=222031




Isn't the idea that the Confederacy wasn't about slavery the biggest rewrite of history in the of our nation?
Absolutely!
George Truett
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Thee University said:

tommie said:

Thee University said:

You knew it was coming.

https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=222031




Isn't the idea that the Confederacy wasn't about slavery the biggest rewrite of history in the of our nation?
What do you mean by Confederacy? The Confederacy covers a lot of ground.

The biggest re-write (by the victorious Northern Aggressors) in the history of our nation might be the causes for the Civil War or it could be Saddam Hussein and his Weapons of Mass Destruction or maybe it was American genocide of Indigenous people. History re-writes go on and on and on.

Your rewrite question above has been debated for 155+ years now.

The neo-Marxist enemies of the entire South use fake history to promote not only anti-Confederate narratives but also anti-South and ultimately anti-American narratives.
You might want to read the articles of succession of the Confederate States.

Most of them mention slavery as their reason for leaving the union.

There really is no argument, other than by those who want to revise history.
Robert Wilson
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We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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George Truett said:

Thee University said:

You knew it was coming.

https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=222031


Taking a look at campus representations is totally consistent, and, in fact, demanded by the university's Christian mission.

Great work by the Regents and administration!
Like Nein51 said, just burn it down. A better idea might be to turn Baylor buildings and land into the country's largest homeless shelter. Of course they would need to limit the number of evil white people they allow in to get food and shelter.

This will also free up more time for the Baylor Board of Regents and allow them to go destroy some other 176 year old entities.
"Fear does not prevent death. It prevents life."
Thee University
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I went to Baylor and graduated when it was still BAYLOR!!!!!

ATL Bear
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Robert Wilson said:

We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.

People don't want an honest discussion or evaluation of history. They want to pick a point in time, establish a horizon and comparative using modern standards of application. This isn't about reconciliation or progression. This is about power, plain and simple.
Robert Wilson
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ATL Bear said:

Robert Wilson said:

We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.

People don't want an honest discussion or evaluation of history. They want to pick a point in time, establish a horizon and comparative using modern standards of application. This isn't about reconciliation or progression. This about power, plain and simple.
Yep. That's why indulging in it in the name of harmony or getting along is sheer folly. It's a divisive power play, pure and simple.

Baylor just trucking along with the crowd on all this stuff (but usually a few steps behind it) is extremely disappointing. With Baylor's historic place, some really thoughtful theologians and historians on campus, and position as a private university, it has had an opportunity to be thoughtful and compassionate while choosing to orient itself differently to much of the identity-based SJW silliness that has been going on the last several years. We haven't done that. We continue to signal that we want to be part of a club that will never let us join anyway.
Carlos Cruz
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Doc Holliday
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Carlos Safety said:



Quote:

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - CS Lewis


Redbrickbear
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tommie said:

Thee University said:

tommie said:

Thee University said:

You knew it was coming.

https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=222031




Isn't the idea that the Confederacy wasn't about slavery the biggest rewrite of history in the of our nation?
What do you mean by Confederacy? The Confederacy covers a lot of ground.

The biggest re-write (by the victorious Northern Aggressors) in the history of our nation might be the causes for the Civil War or it could be Saddam Hussein and his Weapons of Mass Destruction or maybe it was American genocide of Indigenous people. History re-writes go on and on and on.

Your rewrite question above has been debated for 155+ years now.

The neo-Marxist enemies of the entire South use fake history to promote not only anti-Confederate narratives but also anti-South and ultimately anti-American narratives.


The fact that the South Carolina militia attacked the Union soldiers at Fort Sumter is what started the "War of Northern Aggression" is in itself a rewrite.

You attack a dude. He beats your ass (and frees millions of people forced to work against their will in the process) is not "Northern Aggression." It's righteous.

Calling it Northern Aggression or "States Rights" is all a rewrite.
The Federal soldiers were given notice to leave the sovereign territory of South Carolina in peace....they refused to do so...that made them imperialist occupiers.

The North sent army after army to invade the South killing 33% of the male population and destroying most of its cities....not the other way around.

Yes it most certainly was a war of northern aggression.

Secession was a right in 1776, it was right in 1835, it was a right in 1861, and it remains a right to this day.
Forest Bueller_bf
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LIB,MR BEARS said:

ABRAHAM was too old.

ISAAC was a daydreamer.

JACOB lied.

LEAH was ugly.

JOSEPH was abused.

MOSES was a murderer and couldn't talk.

GIDEON was afraid.

SAMSON had long hair and was afraid.

RAHAB was a prostitute.

JEREMIAH and TIMOTHY were too young.

DAVID was a murderer and adulterer.

ELIJAH was suicidal.

ISAIAH preached naked.

JONAH ran from God.

NAOMI was a widow.

JOB went bankrupt.

JOHN THE BAPTIST ate bugs.

PETER denied Christ.

The DISCIPLES fell asleep while praying.

MARTHA worried about everything.

MARY MAGDLENE was demon possessed.

The SAMARITAN WOMAN was divorcedmore than once

ZACCHEUS was too small.

PAUL was a murderer.

TIMOTHY had an ulcer.

LAZARUS was dead!

Judge Baylor was a slave owner

Only Jesus was perfect.

NEXT
SOLOMON was the grand prize sinner.

300 concubines
700 wives

and worshipped Idols. Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.
Carlos Cruz
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Forest Bueller_bf said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

ABRAHAM was too old.

ISAAC was a daydreamer.

JACOB lied.

LEAH was ugly.

JOSEPH was abused.

MOSES was a murderer and couldn't talk.

GIDEON was afraid.

SAMSON had long hair and was afraid.

RAHAB was a prostitute.

JEREMIAH and TIMOTHY were too young.

DAVID was a murderer and adulterer.

ELIJAH was suicidal.

ISAIAH preached naked.

JONAH ran from God.

NAOMI was a widow.

JOB went bankrupt.

JOHN THE BAPTIST ate bugs.

PETER denied Christ.

The DISCIPLES fell asleep while praying.

MARTHA worried about everything.

MARY MAGDLENE was demon possessed.

The SAMARITAN WOMAN was divorcedmore than once

ZACCHEUS was too small.

PAUL was a murderer.

TIMOTHY had an ulcer.

LAZARUS was dead!

Judge Baylor was a slave owner

Only Jesus was perfect.

NEXT
SOLOMON was the grand prize sinner.

300 concubines
700 wives

and worship Idols. Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Molech the abomination of the Ammonites, on the mountain east of Jerusalem. And so he did for all his foreign wives, who made offerings and sacrificed to their gods.
We build those same high places. We call them Planned Parenthood clinics.
fadskier
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I'm tired of apologizing for things I did not do. I did not support slavery, I did not support succession. I don't support racism in any form if I am aware of it. If I think it is racist, then I don't support it. If YOU think it is racist, then I may or may not support it.

I did not attend graduate from Baylor because of it's history. Being half-Spanish ancestory I am fairly certain that Baylor did (and Texas did) discriminate against people of Mexican/Spansih/Latin American descent. Guess what, I don't care!!!!

I have seen many, many brown people on campus so I am fairly certain that brown skin color isn't an issue any more.

I do not need to be pandered to or have Baylor tell me who the first brown graduate was or anything like that. I refuse to give it to that kind of pandering.

MOVE THE FREAK ON!!!!

FYI, there were laws on the book that mandated discimination against Hispanics in Texas. There are there no longer. Again, move on...
GrowlTowel
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George Truett said:

Thee University said:

tommie said:

Thee University said:

You knew it was coming.

https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=222031




Isn't the idea that the Confederacy wasn't about slavery the biggest rewrite of history in the of our nation?
What do you mean by Confederacy? The Confederacy covers a lot of ground.

The biggest re-write (by the victorious Northern Aggressors) in the history of our nation might be the causes for the Civil War or it could be Saddam Hussein and his Weapons of Mass Destruction or maybe it was American genocide of Indigenous people. History re-writes go on and on and on.

Your rewrite question above has been debated for 155+ years now.

The neo-Marxist enemies of the entire South use fake history to promote not only anti-Confederate narratives but also anti-South and ultimately anti-American narratives.
You might want to read the articles of succession of the Confederate States.

Most of them mention slavery as their reason for leaving the union.

There really is no argument, other than by those who want to revise history.
Speaking of revising history, how do you internalize your handle? By today's standards, wasn't George Truett a racist? He was pastor of First Baptist in Dallas and First Baptist didn't allow blacks to worship there under his leadership. He was pretty much anti-Catholic as well.
What makes the offended right?
BearTruth13
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Porteroso said:

BearTruth13 said:

Booray said:

fadskier said:

Booray said:

ATL Bear said:

Booray said:

One can be against removing statutes (particularly those on private grounds) and for giving full context to those memorialized. I am guessing that is what the result will be here. Y'all can keep perpetuating sanitized fairy tales and calling it history.


Sanitized fairy tales? Do tell.
A history of Baylor as a Christian institution that ignores the school's connection to slavery and racism is a sanitized fairy tale.
How was the institution connected to slavery and racism? I must missed something...sorry.


It was founded by a slave-owner and refused admittance to black students for 118 years, for starters


My job at Baylor was to give tours of campus to prospective students and their families. We would stop by the Baylor statue for a picture on the tour.

Do you think that would be a good time to say "this is a statue of our founder Judge Baylor. Like many in the 1800s, he was a slave owner. We feel that it is necessary to educate you on that fact. Now who wants to take a goofy picture on the statue?!" That won't be uncomfortable at all.

Maybe that's the point though. If the kids take a picture next to a statue, knowing nothing about it, and later realize who the person depicted actually was, they'd regret the picture?

I think knowledge is empowering. You don't really need to be telling kids that Judge Baylor was racist while giving campus tours, but you could mention that the campus is having an internal discussion about its roots, in an effort to be honest and transparent. Would that be so bad? Then the prospective students could inquire more if they want, later.

Knowledge doesn't truly hurt anyone other than those afraid of that particular knowledge.
Should tours of Waco downtown stop at the spot of the Waco lynching? Prior to the Magnolia stop?

People know that humanity sucked (especially in the 1800s). I'm all for teaching history. But there is a time and place.
bubbadog
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ATL Bear said:

Robert Wilson said:

We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.

People don't want an honest discussion or evaluation of history. They want to pick a point in time, establish a horizon and comparative using modern standards of application. This isn't about reconciliation or progression. This is about power, plain and simple.
That's true of some people -- I tend to think of the cancel culture types. But that's far from all.

Speaking generally (not specifically about Baylor), I simply want to see all of our history acknowledged, warts and all. An honest discussion and evaluation, as you say.

I also know that many parts of our history -- they tend to be parts that we're not especially proud of -- never seem to get taught to schoolchildren or even publicly discussed.

We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.

And not all of this phenomenon concerns our racial history. Sometimes it's just the parts that we don't think put us in the best light. For example, in a HS class what you're likely to learn about the War of 1812 is the Battle of New Orleans (our only clear victory, which was irrelevant to the resolution of the war), the siege of Fort McHenry, and maybe the burning of Washington. Even a college class isn't likely to cover our multiple failed attempts to invade Canada during that war, although you might learn about our naval victories on the Great Lakes. Only because of Dr. Armitstead at BU did we learn about the "Bladensburg Races" -- how our poorly trained militia panicked when they saw the rockets' red glare (basically just flares), ran for their lives in fear and left the capital undefended.

bubbadog
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Seems to be a whole lot of angst on this thread about things that haven't happened, may not happen, and in my opinion probably never will happen.

If they do anything to "put Baylor in context," I very much doubt it would involve taking down Judge Baylor's statue. I would oppose such a thing. How do you take down the statue of the school's namesake without also 86'ing the name of the school itself? You don't, and they won't. It's not like the school was named for Hitler or Stalin, or even Gen. Jeffrey Amherst, who infamously traded smallpox-infested blankets to the Indians. Last time I checked, Amherst hasn't abandoned its prestigious name. They didn't change or erase references to Jeffrey Amherst. Bear in mind we're talking about uber-liberal Massachusetts here. They did change the name of their mascot from the Lord Jeffs (always sounded a bit powder-puffy anyway) to Mammoths.
https://www.amherst.edu/amherst-story/amherst-pride/mascot/faqs

My guess is they'll add some interpretive content on a plaque near the statue and throw in some of it during freshman orientation, maybe a paragraph on the university's website under the history section or as a companion to content about mission/values. And that would be about it.

We'll see.
fadskier
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bubbadog said:

ATL Bear said:

Robert Wilson said:

We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.

People don't want an honest discussion or evaluation of history. They want to pick a point in time, establish a horizon and comparative using modern standards of application. This isn't about reconciliation or progression. This is about power, plain and simple.
That's true of some people -- I tend to think of the cancel culture types. But that's far from all.

Speaking generally (not specifically about Baylor), I simply want to see all of our history acknowledged, warts and all. An honest discussion and evaluation, as you say.

I also know that many parts of our history -- they tend to be parts that we're not especially proud of -- never seem to get taught to schoolchildren or even publicly discussed.

We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.

And not all of this phenomenon concerns our racial history. Sometimes it's just the parts that we don't think put us in the best light. For example, in a HS class what you're likely to learn about the War of 1812 is the Battle of New Orleans (our only clear victory, which was irrelevant to the resolution of the war), the siege of Fort McHenry, and maybe the burning of Washington. Even a college class isn't likely to cover our multiple failed attempts to invade Canada during that war, although you might learn about our naval victories on the Great Lakes. Only because of Dr. Armitstead at BU did we learn about the "Bladensburg Races" -- how our poorly trained militia panicked when they saw the rockets' red glare (basically just flares), ran for their lives in fear and left the capital undefended.


I'd be all for educational sites for slave markets...I think there is a lack of education on things like that. Would black people tolerate that?

I want to go visit the store where Emmett Tim's downfall began as well as the site where his body was found...lout to be a statue in Money, MS of him. Horrible, horrible thing.
whitetrash
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fadskier said:

bubbadog said:

ATL Bear said:

Robert Wilson said:

We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.

People don't want an honest discussion or evaluation of history. They want to pick a point in time, establish a horizon and comparative using modern standards of application. This isn't about reconciliation or progression. This is about power, plain and simple.
That's true of some people -- I tend to think of the cancel culture types. But that's far from all.

Speaking generally (not specifically about Baylor), I simply want to see all of our history acknowledged, warts and all. An honest discussion and evaluation, as you say.

I also know that many parts of our history -- they tend to be parts that we're not especially proud of -- never seem to get taught to schoolchildren or even publicly discussed.

We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.

And not all of this phenomenon concerns our racial history. Sometimes it's just the parts that we don't think put us in the best light. For example, in a HS class what you're likely to learn about the War of 1812 is the Battle of New Orleans (our only clear victory, which was irrelevant to the resolution of the war), the siege of Fort McHenry, and maybe the burning of Washington. Even a college class isn't likely to cover our multiple failed attempts to invade Canada during that war, although you might learn about our naval victories on the Great Lakes. Only because of Dr. Armitstead at BU did we learn about the "Bladensburg Races" -- how our poorly trained militia panicked when they saw the rockets' red glare (basically just flares), ran for their lives in fear and left the capital undefended.


I'd be all for educational sites for slave markets...I think there is a lack of education on things like that. Would black people tolerate that?

I want to go visit the store where Emmett Tim's downfall began as well as the site where his body was found...lout to be a statue in Money, MS of him. Horrible, horrible thing.


Natchez makes a big deal of the "Forks of the Road" slave market site, which I think was the largest inland market.
whitetrash
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bubbadog said:


For example, in a HS class what you're likely to learn about the War of 1812 is the Battle of New Orleans (our only clear victory, which was irrelevant to the resolution of the war), the siege of Fort McHenry, and maybe the burning of Washington. Even a college class isn't likely to cover our multiple failed attempts to invade Canada during that war, although you might learn about our naval victories on the Great Lakes. Only because of Dr. Armitstead at BU did we learn about the "Bladensburg Races" -- how our poorly trained militia panicked when they saw the rockets' red glare (basically just flares), ran for their lives in fear and left the capital undefended.




I know all about the battles for Canada because my parents were stationed at Fort Niagara, NY in the mid 1950s. It's on one bank of the mouth of the Niagara River on Lake Ontario, across the river from Fort Mississauga, ON. They bombarded each other for months from positions equivalent to the Americans being at McLane Stadium and the Brits being at the law school.

By the 1950s the fort featured anti-aircraft batteries in case the Russkies attacked over the North Pole.
ATL Bear
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bubbadog said:

ATL Bear said:

Robert Wilson said:

We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.

People don't want an honest discussion or evaluation of history. They want to pick a point in time, establish a horizon and comparative using modern standards of application. This isn't about reconciliation or progression. This is about power, plain and simple.
That's true of some people -- I tend to think of the cancel culture types. But that's far from all.

Speaking generally (not specifically about Baylor), I simply want to see all of our history acknowledged, warts and all. An honest discussion and evaluation, as you say.

I also know that many parts of our history -- they tend to be parts that we're not especially proud of -- never seem to get taught to schoolchildren or even publicly discussed.

We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.

And not all of this phenomenon concerns our racial history. Sometimes it's just the parts that we don't think put us in the best light. For example, in a HS class what you're likely to learn about the War of 1812 is the Battle of New Orleans (our only clear victory, which was irrelevant to the resolution of the war), the siege of Fort McHenry, and maybe the burning of Washington. Even a college class isn't likely to cover our multiple failed attempts to invade Canada during that war, although you might learn about our naval victories on the Great Lakes. Only because of Dr. Armitstead at BU did we learn about the "Bladensburg Races" -- how our poorly trained militia panicked when they saw the rockets' red glare (basically just flares), ran for their lives in fear and left the capital undefended.


Critical analysis of the events of the time isn't what's happening. For example, staying with the War of 1812, people aren't evaluating Andrew Jackson's fitness for President due to his harsh tactics including Marshall Law in New Orleans, but instead saying does he need to have a statue because he had slaves and acquired land from the Indians, regardless of whether or not he actually took the land after defeating the Creek who were fighting for the British. History simply can't be viewed through a prism of modern social awareness.
ABC BEAR
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ATL Bear said:

Robert Wilson said:

We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.

People don't want an honest discussion or evaluation of history. They want to pick a point in time, establish a horizon and comparative using modern standards of application. This isn't about reconciliation or progression. This is about power, plain and simple.
If Judge Baylor had operated an abortion clinic in a black neighborhood, he would be considered a hero by today's woke standards.
Doc Holliday
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bubbadog said:

Seems to be a whole lot of angst on this thread about things that haven't happened, may not happen, and in my opinion probably never will happen.

If they do anything to "put Baylor in context," I very much doubt it would involve taking down Judge Baylor's statue. I would oppose such a thing. How do you take down the statue of the school's namesake without also 86'ing the name of the school itself?
The same way the Washington Redskins are now the Washington football team.

Nobody thought that would happen. It's like boiling a frog, you won't realize it until they're hauling the statue away. Because you don't fathom it happening is precisely why it does: you put up no defense early on and brush it off.
bubbadog
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ATL Bear said:

bubbadog said:

ATL Bear said:

Robert Wilson said:

We can dress this up all we want, but the primary result of this exercise will be to pull people and events out of the stream of history and to judge people and their actions 150-200 years out of the context in which they lived and in which those actions took place. There is absolutely no way to make that fair nor reasonable.

People don't want an honest discussion or evaluation of history. They want to pick a point in time, establish a horizon and comparative using modern standards of application. This isn't about reconciliation or progression. This is about power, plain and simple.
That's true of some people -- I tend to think of the cancel culture types. But that's far from all.

Speaking generally (not specifically about Baylor), I simply want to see all of our history acknowledged, warts and all. An honest discussion and evaluation, as you say.

I also know that many parts of our history -- they tend to be parts that we're not especially proud of -- never seem to get taught to schoolchildren or even publicly discussed.

We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.

And not all of this phenomenon concerns our racial history. Sometimes it's just the parts that we don't think put us in the best light. For example, in a HS class what you're likely to learn about the War of 1812 is the Battle of New Orleans (our only clear victory, which was irrelevant to the resolution of the war), the siege of Fort McHenry, and maybe the burning of Washington. Even a college class isn't likely to cover our multiple failed attempts to invade Canada during that war, although you might learn about our naval victories on the Great Lakes. Only because of Dr. Armitstead at BU did we learn about the "Bladensburg Races" -- how our poorly trained militia panicked when they saw the rockets' red glare (basically just flares), ran for their lives in fear and left the capital undefended.


Critical analysis of the events of the time isn't what's happening. For example, staying with the War of 1812, people aren't evaluating Andrew Jackson's fitness for President due to his harsh tactics including Marshall Law in New Orleans, but instead saying does he need to have a statue because he had slaves and acquired land from the Indians, regardless of whether or not he actually took the land after defeating the Creek who were fighting for the British. History simply can't be viewed through a prism of modern social awareness.
Agree with your assessment of how the super-woke crowd would view Andrew Jackson. (I will pause here only to note that Jackson was a pretty divisive figure in his own day as well.) There have been other discussions, maybe back on the old BaylorFans site, where I described the shadings of gray in Jackson's Indian removal policy that were getting ignored even before the New Wokeness. Yes, removal was favored by what land-grabbers and big planters. But there were also "liberals" of the time who believed that removal was the only way to preserve the Native Americans and their cultural identity; they thought they were helping by removing them to Oklahoma.

I stand by my larger point. Your first sentence is accurate insofar as it applies to the super work. They may be the loudest voices, sort of like politicized conservative evangelicals have been the loudest voice in Christianity, but they don't speak for a majority.
fadskier
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Doc Holliday said:

bubbadog said:

Seems to be a whole lot of angst on this thread about things that haven't happened, may not happen, and in my opinion probably never will happen.

If they do anything to "put Baylor in context," I very much doubt it would involve taking down Judge Baylor's statue. I would oppose such a thing. How do you take down the statue of the school's namesake without also 86'ing the name of the school itself?
The same way the Washington Redskins are now the Washington football team.

Nobody thought that would happen. It's like boiling a frog, you won't realize it until they're hauling the statue away. Because you don't fathom it happening is precisely why it does: you put up no defense early on and brush it off.
This. and it isn't even that Native Americans that are upset about it. It is Native American political organizations and woke white people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html

It's like my very conservative but very Democrat grandmother (who voted in 2016 for her first ever Republican) said about gay marriage when it was an issue...once you except that, they'll push for more...they'll be telling you to call boys girls and girls boys and you'll be branded a hater if you don't....

welp, here we are....
bubbadog
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Doc Holliday said:

bubbadog said:

Seems to be a whole lot of angst on this thread about things that haven't happened, may not happen, and in my opinion probably never will happen.

If they do anything to "put Baylor in context," I very much doubt it would involve taking down Judge Baylor's statue. I would oppose such a thing. How do you take down the statue of the school's namesake without also 86'ing the name of the school itself?
The same way the Washington Redskins are now the Washington football team.

Nobody thought that would happen. It's like boiling a frog, you won't realize it until they're hauling the statue away. Because you don't fathom it happening is precisely why it does: you put up no defense early on and brush it off.
Anybody who didn't think the Redskins eventually would have to change their name hadn't been paying attention for a couple of decades.

And it's a false equivalency to say that's like the Baylor situation.
The Hound
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fadskier said:

Doc Holliday said:

bubbadog said:

Seems to be a whole lot of angst on this thread about things that haven't happened, may not happen, and in my opinion probably never will happen.

If they do anything to "put Baylor in context," I very much doubt it would involve taking down Judge Baylor's statue. I would oppose such a thing. How do you take down the statue of the school's namesake without also 86'ing the name of the school itself?
The same way the Washington Redskins are now the Washington football team.

Nobody thought that would happen. It's like boiling a frog, you won't realize it until they're hauling the statue away. Because you don't fathom it happening is precisely why it does: you put up no defense early on and brush it off.
This. and it isn't even that Native Americans that are upset about it. It is Native American political organizations and woke white people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html

It's like my very conservative but very Democrat grandmother (who voted in 2016 for her first ever Republican) said about gay marriage when it was an issue...once you except that, they'll push for more...they'll be telling you to call boys girls and girls boys and you'll be branded a hater if you don't....

welp, here we are....


I wonder if that poll includes the many white people that claim to be Native American because of like a 1/8 or less ancestry. Like, I'm not supporting the name change I'm just saying that polls like that are misleading
Thee University
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bubbadog said:


We put up historical markers on the site of where some early school or pioneer trading post once was but won't officially mark the site of the old slave market. Every county square in my state has a monument to its Confederate veterans or war dead -- and I have no problem with that -- but there's no public monument anywhere to the 20,000 Black men from the state who joined the Union Army and fought and died for their own freedom. If taking down Confederate statues today is cancelling, you might say that much of our history got pre-cancelled generations earlier.


A very large number of Confederate monuments around this great, free country were bought and paid for by the widows, kids and grandkids of Confederate Veterans. They raised the $$$$ by collecting pennies, nickels, dimes and other donations. They were proud of their ancestors and 95%+ did not own or have any slaves. They did not march hundreds and thousands of mile on foot and horseback to allow slave owners to keep their labor pool. They did not risk their lives voluntarily so that Boss Hog could wallow around on his plantation and they come home maimed to a mud hut or at best a log cabin.

Nothing prevented blacks, browns and yellows from erecting monuments and roadside historical markers of ancestors they were/are proud of or sites they deem historical.

Today I'm certain Black Lives Matter would part with $100 million or so so get those monuments erected. Don't you think? All it takes is a little work and sacrifice!!!
Doc Holliday
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bubbadog said:

Doc Holliday said:

bubbadog said:

Seems to be a whole lot of angst on this thread about things that haven't happened, may not happen, and in my opinion probably never will happen.

If they do anything to "put Baylor in context," I very much doubt it would involve taking down Judge Baylor's statue. I would oppose such a thing. How do you take down the statue of the school's namesake without also 86'ing the name of the school itself?
The same way the Washington Redskins are now the Washington football team.

Nobody thought that would happen. It's like boiling a frog, you won't realize it until they're hauling the statue away. Because you don't fathom it happening is precisely why it does: you put up no defense early on and brush it off.
Anybody who didn't think the Redskins eventually would have to change their name hadn't been paying attention for a couple of decades.

And it's a false equivalency to say that's like the Baylor situation.
I could make an argument that gains tractions by claiming the Baylor name is more racist than the Redskins using rhetoric that the University was founded upon a racist slave owner.

You may not see it that way, but they do. You're a liberal which is very very different from the new woke left.

Quote:

Onilenla added to the Lariat that "integration didn't happen until 1963, so you have 118 years where there's no black people on this campus," and he doesn't want to see the statue on campus "because I know I'm not supposed to be here, according to him. Having him off campus is going to be the start of racial healing."

"Once we remove that from campus, then we can start removing the rest of the stuff off the campus that makes us feel uncomfortable," Onilenla noted to the publication.





 
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