Wayne LaPierre and his wife Susan kill elephants badly

2,909 Views | 92 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by drahthaar
Canada2017
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ShooterTX said:

Jack and DP said:

Shippou said:

I'm not a fan of trophy hunting endangered animals. I don't care about people hunting for sustenance or taking care of animals that have destroyed their property(wild pigs, coyotes, etc.)

But there's something about going across the globe and shooting animals that may not be around in 20-50 years that irks me.

Just my two cents, I don't give a damn about the nra or anything, I just like animals.


Are you a fan of African villages being able to eat? Watch this video and get back to me.




This is exactly what happens every time there is a big game hunter... the locals get the meat, and most of the money is used to fund anti-poaching programs.
When an ivory poacher kills an elephant, most of the meat rots before anyone finds the carcass.
Poaching is the problem. Organized & guided hunts are part of the solution. Would be poachers are turned into guides, and are later employed to hunt down and capture the poachers too.
The best way to preserve the elephants is to make them legally profitable. Take away the hunting, and they would be slaughtered for ivory, meat and pest control.

The highest population of the African scimitar horned orynx is on game ranches in Texas. Far more here than on the entire continent of Africa. Same for other African species. More Chtal in Texas, than India. Barbary sheep are almost extinct in their native Afghanistan, and very few in Morocco, but tens of thousands on Texas ranches.

All of these animals are preserved in Texas, without government assistance or regulation. There is a value to hunting them, and so there is a value in growing & maintaining a large & healthy herd of them.

Outlaw legal hunting is the fastest way to insure extinction.
100% correct.
quash
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bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
Jack and DP
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cms186 said:

Jack and DP said:

cms186 said:

Shippou said:

I'm not a fan of trophy hunting endangered animals. I don't care about people hunting for sustenance or taking care of animals that have destroyed their property(wild pigs, coyotes, etc.)

But there's something about going across the globe and shooting animals that may not be around in 20-50 years that irks me.

Just my two sense, I don't give a damn about the nra or anything, I just like animals.
I feel the same, if you're going to kill an animal for food or its causing damage to your property in some way then fine, but trophy killing, especially for harmless animals (relatively) like Elephants (which are endangered) then i dont really get the point, i mean, Mrs LaPierre shouted "Victory" after sawing off an elephants tail, Victory? over what? a large, slow, defenceless target?


Endangered?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/africa/zimbabwe-elephants-for-sale-intl/index.html
yes, endangered: https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/181008073/181022663


Not endangered

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=200104722

https://www.krugerpark.co.za/krugerpark-times-2-2-elephant-overpopulation-19037.html

https://www.voanews.com/africa/botswana-repatriate-elephants-angola-reduce-overpopulation

LIB,MR BEARS
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You obviously didn't read the link Jack and DP posted.
whiterock
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Jack and DP said:

cms186 said:

Jack and DP said:

cms186 said:

Shippou said:

I'm not a fan of trophy hunting endangered animals. I don't care about people hunting for sustenance or taking care of animals that have destroyed their property(wild pigs, coyotes, etc.)

But there's something about going across the globe and shooting animals that may not be around in 20-50 years that irks me.

Just my two sense, I don't give a damn about the nra or anything, I just like animals.
I feel the same, if you're going to kill an animal for food or its causing damage to your property in some way then fine, but trophy killing, especially for harmless animals (relatively) like Elephants (which are endangered) then i dont really get the point, i mean, Mrs LaPierre shouted "Victory" after sawing off an elephants tail, Victory? over what? a large, slow, defenceless target?


Endangered?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/25/africa/zimbabwe-elephants-for-sale-intl/index.html
yes, endangered: https://www.iucnredlist.org/species/181008073/181022663


Not endangered

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=200104722

https://www.krugerpark.co.za/krugerpark-times-2-2-elephant-overpopulation-19037.html

https://www.voanews.com/africa/botswana-repatriate-elephants-angola-reduce-overpopulation


Exactly. Opponents of hunting & guns love to employ the false dilemma.

being on the endangered species list, subject to CITES controls, does not not mean "endangered everywhere." Elephant populations are a small percentage of what they were 200 years ago, mostly due to loss of habitat. In some areas, they have disappeared and have no chance of recovery (habitat loss). In others, they have suitable habitat, but difficulty holding on for numerous reasons. And, in some areas, they are actually overpopulated.

The elephant I took was from a herd of 10 that left the Zambezi River valley due to culling pressure. That's right. Culling operations. The government of Zimbabwe was using game department employees to cull elephant herds in order to protect existing habitat in government parks & hunting concesssions. (Overpopulated elephants destroy forest & scrub habitat in ways that take decades to recover, unlike grasslands which recover annually from overpopulated plains game). Ten young bulls left the valley and entered a well developed commercial farming area, doing much damage to farm infrastructure (that generated hard currency to a nation starved for it), to include garden plots of farm employees. So the local game management council sold hunts for small amounts to make the elephants "pay their way...." the money generated being used to repair elephant damage. The intention was that aspiring professional hunters would get a chance to earn their ratings on dangerous game without having to bid for game in commercial hunting concessions against wealthy foreigners. I shot the second one taken. The next day, they were gone back to the Zambezi Valley. So the process worked exactly as planned. Two elephants taken, to the tune of about $4000ZD (About USD 8k at the time) in trophy fees (10% of market price), plus the value of all the meat (fed to locals.) I sold the skin for $1400. Net cost to me = $600. And it happened in the long grass. For the last 100 years, elephant range has been constricted to the scrub and forested areas of Southern Africa. The Zim farmer who was my rated hunter for the hunt was quite nostalgic about that. "Do you know how long it's been since a wild elephant was taken in the long grass?"

The are many parts of Africa where elephants are so numerous they pose a problem.
Canon
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quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.



1. A fetus is a human being. It's a baby human being.
2. Blastocysts in a freezer have no inevitability for life. They are not analogs to those implanted. It's the difference between a packet of tomato seeds in a hardware store and a germinating baby tomato plant in a garden.

Dismembering a growing baby in the womb and then scraping/sucking it out is quite different than unplugging a freezer. I'm sure you agree.
quash
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Canon said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.



1. A fetus is a human being. It's a baby human being.
2. Blastocysts in a freezer have no inevitability for life. They are not analogs to those implanted. It's the difference between a packet of tomato seeds in a hardware store and a germinating baby tomato plant in a garden.

Dismembering a growing baby in the womb and then scraping/sucking it out is quite different than unplugging a freezer. I'm sure you agree.


Those blastocysts didn't form in a freezer

But you know that.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
Sam Lowry
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

Canon said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.



1. A fetus is a human being. It's a baby human being.
2. Blastocysts in a freezer have no inevitability for life. They are not analogs to those implanted. It's the difference between a packet of tomato seeds in a hardware store and a germinating baby tomato plant in a garden.

Dismembering a growing baby in the womb and then scraping/sucking it out is quite different than unplugging a freezer. I'm sure you agree.


Those blastocysts didn't form in a freezer

But you know that.

They are humans IMO.
Canon
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

Canon said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.



1. A fetus is a human being. It's a baby human being.
2. Blastocysts in a freezer have no inevitability for life. They are not analogs to those implanted. It's the difference between a packet of tomato seeds in a hardware store and a germinating baby tomato plant in a garden.

Dismembering a growing baby in the womb and then scraping/sucking it out is quite different than unplugging a freezer. I'm sure you agree.


Those blastocysts didn't form in a freezer

But you know that.



They don't form in an environment that can or will inevitably lead to growth into a baby human either. It takes extraordinary external means to implant them into that environment (often failing repeatedly). When we have a 'Brave new world' I'll change my mind on them too, but we aren't there yet. Until then abortion (actively killing, dismembering and extracting them from their mother's womb) is murder and unplugging a freezer is not.

I think you and I can at least agree on the argument of environment and inevitability. It's an apples to packet of apple seeds comparison.
SSadler
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Can we get this thread back to NRA and elephant-killing.

Please start another thread for the "fetus is a human" discussion.
Canon
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SSadler said:

Can we get this thread back to NRA and elephant-killing.

Please start another thread for the "fetus is a human" discussion.


No.
quash
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SSadler said:

Can we get this thread back to NRA and elephant-killing.

Please start another thread for the "fetus is a human" discussion.
Like Canon says, all threads because abortion.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
bearassnekkid
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quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.

Cool story. What species do you believe pregnant women are carrying in their wombs if not human?

If you want to make the asinine argument about "personhood" of an unborn human, fine. Knock yourself out. But pretending they aren't human beings is absurd. If your argument somehow involves parsing out the word "being" . . . then by all means feel free to embarrass yourself.
Sam Lowry
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Canon said:

quash said:

Canon said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.



1. A fetus is a human being. It's a baby human being.
2. Blastocysts in a freezer have no inevitability for life. They are not analogs to those implanted. It's the difference between a packet of tomato seeds in a hardware store and a germinating baby tomato plant in a garden.

Dismembering a growing baby in the womb and then scraping/sucking it out is quite different than unplugging a freezer. I'm sure you agree.


Those blastocysts didn't form in a freezer

But you know that.



They don't form in an environment that can or will inevitably lead to growth into a baby human either. It takes extraordinary external means to implant them into that environment (often failing repeatedly). When we have a 'Brave new world' I'll change my mind on them too, but we aren't there yet. Until then abortion (actively killing, dismembering and extracting them from their mother's womb) is murder and unplugging a freezer is not.

I think you and I can at least agree on the argument of environment and inevitability. It's an apples to packet of apple seeds comparison.
Seed is more analogous to seed. It's even called the same thing. Embryos in a freezer would be like seedlings on a shelf at the garden store. They won't survive unless they're planted, but they are germinated and very much alive.
Canon
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Sam Lowry said:

Canon said:

quash said:

Canon said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.



1. A fetus is a human being. It's a baby human being.
2. Blastocysts in a freezer have no inevitability for life. They are not analogs to those implanted. It's the difference between a packet of tomato seeds in a hardware store and a germinating baby tomato plant in a garden.

Dismembering a growing baby in the womb and then scraping/sucking it out is quite different than unplugging a freezer. I'm sure you agree.


Those blastocysts didn't form in a freezer

But you know that.



They don't form in an environment that can or will inevitably lead to growth into a baby human either. It takes extraordinary external means to implant them into that environment (often failing repeatedly). When we have a 'Brave new world' I'll change my mind on them too, but we aren't there yet. Until then abortion (actively killing, dismembering and extracting them from their mother's womb) is murder and unplugging a freezer is not.

I think you and I can at least agree on the argument of environment and inevitability. It's an apples to packet of apple seeds comparison.
Seed is more analogous to seed. It's even called the same thing. Embryos in a freezer would be like seedlings on a shelf at the garden store. They won't survive unless they're planted, but they are germinated and very much alive.
Fair. But broadly, the analogy of inevitability holds true, particularly because they are stored indefinitely in a freezer. It's the freezer that makes them more akin to seed packets, because the germination is the key....the seeds in a packet contain all the blocks for a growable plant, just like the blastocyst, and nothing will inevitably happen unless implanted.

Either way, you get the point of the analogy....an implanted blastocyst is inevitably a human. I can certainly concede minor points on that difference.
Florda_mike
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.

Cool story. What species do you believe pregnant women are carrying in their wombs if not human?

If you want to make the asinine argument about "personhood" of an unborn human, fine. Knock yourself out. But pretending they aren't human beings is absurd. If your argument somehow involves parsing out the word "being" . . . then by all means feel free to embarrass yourself.


Good luck with that argument with him

Maybe ask him what he thinks about if his mom had "aborted him at 9 months?"
quash
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Florda_mike said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.

Cool story. What species do you believe pregnant women are carrying in their wombs if not human?

If you want to make the asinine argument about "personhood" of an unborn human, fine. Knock yourself out. But pretending they aren't human beings is absurd. If your argument somehow involves parsing out the word "being" . . . then by all means feel free to embarrass yourself.


Good luck with that argument with him

Maybe ask him what he thinks about if his mom had "aborted him at 9 months?"
Stay classy Florda.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
Florda_mike
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

Florda_mike said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.

Cool story. What species do you believe pregnant women are carrying in their wombs if not human?

If you want to make the asinine argument about "personhood" of an unborn human, fine. Knock yourself out. But pretending they aren't human beings is absurd. If your argument somehow involves parsing out the word "being" . . . then by all means feel free to embarrass yourself.


Good luck with that argument with him

Maybe ask him what he thinks about if his mom had "aborted him at 9 months?"
Stay classy Florda.


Are you happy with your mom for not aborting you at 9 months?
quash
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Florda_mike said:

quash said:

Florda_mike said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.

Cool story. What species do you believe pregnant women are carrying in their wombs if not human?

If you want to make the asinine argument about "personhood" of an unborn human, fine. Knock yourself out. But pretending they aren't human beings is absurd. If your argument somehow involves parsing out the word "being" . . . then by all means feel free to embarrass yourself.


Good luck with that argument with him

Maybe ask him what he thinks about if his mom had "aborted him at 9 months?"
Stay classy Florda.


Are you happy with your mom for not aborting you at 9 months?
My mom died four years ago today. Go **** yourself.
“Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.” (The Law, p.6) Frederic Bastiat
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

SSadler said:

Can we get this thread back to NRA and elephant-killing.

Please start another thread for the "fetus is a human" discussion.
Like Canon says, all threads because abortion.
Some people have convictions. Odd, I know.

Herron2
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quash said:

bearassnekkid said:

quash said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

Herron2 said:

bear2be2 said:

LIB,MR BEARS said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

bear2be2 said:

Robert Wilson said:

People like to act like there is some clean line between killing for meat and killing for sport. There's not. Real hunters know that.

I'm a pragmatist. The motivations don't particularly matter to me. The results and impact do.
Then you should be pro trophy hunting in Africa. That's the only reason the big species have made a comeback.

I support conservation efforts that don't actively deplete the population one is pretending to care about preserving. Is it good that the money hunters spend on these sick trips have had the unintended consequence of helping conservation efforts in these populations? Yes. Would these "hunters" stop killing these animals if they hadn't? No. This is just a fortuitous bounce that allows these sick ****ers to feel good about murdering exotic animals. But it's their money, not trophy hunting that has allowed these populations to rebound.
So are you a fan of, or opposed to:
Ducks Unlimited
Quality Deer Management Association
Pheasants Forever
National Wild Turkey Federation
Costal Conservation Association
Bonefish and Tarpon Trust

Warm fuzzy feelings about wildlife does nothing to help wildlife. The majority of help wildlife gets comes from the sportsmen that harvest these animals by way of licensing fees, stamps, permits and membership fees in organizations that support their habitat and populations.

Dang facts just get in the way.
My problem is exclusively with international big game/trophy hunting. But don't let assumptions get in your way.


So how do you feel about killing unborn humans?
Not a fan. What does that have to do with this discussion?
Had you pegged as a Democrat voter. If so, your actions would say otherwise since that party has openly embraced abortion on demand. If not, then sincere apologies for the confusion.

Regarding the thread, I find it highly hypocritical (arguably psychopathic/pure evil) for those posters (again, not necessarily you) who would condemn hunting of any sort yet write off innocent human life by voting for Democrats who align with their party's platform.


I condemn kick and shoot.

I want government out of the abortion equation. It's an individual choice.

Taking the life of another human being is never merely an "individual choice." That stance is an intellectual and moral cop-out.


A fetus is not a human being. Now get down to the fertility clinic and protest the death of all those human beings that didn't get implanted.



Huh? Science says otherwise. Human life starts at conception - Human Biology 101, day 1. When you were a zygote, you were as much a human as you are now. Again, basic proven science. From your posts I've read, you're way better than this. Don't discredit yourself with an obvious lie or ignorance of beginner science.
LIB,MR BEARS
How long do you want to ignore this user?
How is a fetus different from a newborn?
How is an adolescent different from an adult?
How is a zygote different from a octogenarian?
drahthaar
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Quite a derail here, from legitimate hunting and discussion of shooting skills and conservation, to abortion rights, philosophy and IVF. Mostly argued on the flash of sentiment and opinion with little light of informed knowledge.

Please introduce Critical Race Theory here--ought to be an interesting dialogue.
 
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