Help me understand

14,007 Views | 299 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by curtpenn
D. C. Bear
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Porteroso said:

Osodecentx said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.


I cannot recall a specific reference for this in scripture.
curtpenn
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Oldbear83 said:

"We therefore, ask those righteous folks heaven to pray for us. They are taking those prayers straight to Jesus."

Since Christ is the intercessor for all Mankind, this reads wrong to me. Christ - and Christ alone - speaks to the Father on our behalf, and we all - every last one of us - have access to Christ.

I agree with James 5:16, but I also recall Mark 3:31, where Mary summoned Jesus to come out and speak with her, and in verse 33 Jesus replied "who are my mother and my brothers?" meaning clearly that Mary held no special privilege.


I think God allows for intercessory prayer out of His grace, but it comes from the heart of the one making intercession, not the one asking someone to intercede for him or her. That is, if my mother who passed some years ago and is now with Jesus, were to ask the Father to help me in something, if the Lord would grant it He would do so out of love for her, while me asking my departed mother to speak to the Lord might provoke Him to ask why I don't ask Him myself. As for the mother of Jesus, we have never met, have nothing in common except that we both love her son Jesus. It really makes no sense for me to pray to Mary for anything, nor does it change the moral condition of anyone to do so. It smacks of idolatry, it really does.
Love you man, but you need get past the whole "praying to" construction; asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me. It really is that simple.

"Christ - and Christ alone - speaks to the Father on our behalf, and we all - every last one of us - have access to Christ."

I and my Father are one. John 10:30 - Anyone speaking to Jesus Christ is speaking to God.

No need to search of idolatry where there is none.
GoldMind
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D. C. Bear said:

Porteroso said:

Osodecentx said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.


I cannot recall a specific reference for this in scripture.



Matthew 26:26
Winning by cheating is just as impressive as winning fairly, probably even more so. Your opponent was better than you in every way, and you beat them with your brain.
D. C. Bear
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GoldMind said:

D. C. Bear said:

Porteroso said:

Osodecentx said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.


I cannot recall a specific reference for this in scripture.



Matthew 26:26



Not finding it there.
fadskier
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GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


The original church was corrupt.

I have been a southern baptist all my life except whil I Baylor where I attended St. Paul's and loved it. There are many things about baptist workship that I do not like but in my current city, that is the only choice.

When I move next year, I will try and find a non-denominational church.

My baptist church does communion once a quarter and it is the focus of the service. While at St. Paul's I attended Enquirer's class (for non-Episcopalians) and remarked how much I love communion there. The Rector said it was all a matter of perspective. He says that many Epicopalians gloss over it because they do it every Sunday. I was a bit surprised because I feel that way about baptists...we rarely do it so it is not aa big deal.

ANYWAY, I do not like a sermon that is more than 20 minutes (which is usually every time) and I don't like the social time during church because it turns focus away from God.
Oldbear83
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"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
LIB,MR BEARS
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Oldbear83 said:

"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.

I think it comes down to this; God knows our heart. Unless we are in direct violation of His Word, I think we are good whether we ask Mom to pray for us or ask the all the saints that have gone before us to pray for us.

If the only thing I do is to ask for intercessionary prayer but never pray for myself, I am wrong.

All Christians of every stripe are to have a personal relationship with our triune God. If there is something we are uncomfortable with, whether it be quarterly Lord's Supper or asking Mary to pray for us, don't do it but don't hold it against others who do. If the Bible is not clear on this, then it seems to be open to interpretation just as food is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 8.
GoldMind
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Oldbear83 said:

"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.


I have never met Christ or God, yet I have a relationship with them. My relationship with them is as good or better than any other that I have.

I think mother of A God is more accurate. Theotokos means "God-bearer"

We believe we were created in gods image, and that god chose man to worship and glorify his son, to spread the word to all nations. If man is worthy of this task, don't you think it's ok to glorify him with images of his own creation?
Winning by cheating is just as impressive as winning fairly, probably even more so. Your opponent was better than you in every way, and you beat them with your brain.
curtpenn
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Oldbear83 said:

"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.
Do you ever pray for others? Have you ever asked others to pray for you, or for others for whom you are concerned?

I do have a relationship with Mary and other saints, as well as people I have known who are no longer present. I do ask Jesus himself, as well as asking others to ask on my behalf. No different than a community praying for someone. Why not "both/and" - Jesus and others?

I invite you to consider the reality of the greater Communion of Saints beyond your limited "community of believers".
GoldMind
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I'm out, I think I've got the concept.

Thank you everyone.
Winning by cheating is just as impressive as winning fairly, probably even more so. Your opponent was better than you in every way, and you beat them with your brain.
LIB,MR BEARS
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GoldMind said:

I'm out, I think I've got the concept.

Thank you everyone.
Good discussion. Thx
Osodecentx
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Porteroso said:

Osodecentx said:

Porteroso said:

Osodecentx said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.
Do you believe those who don't celebrate communion every time they gather can be saved?

Yes. We all live in violation of a lot of the rules given to us. Grace is still there, no matter how much of the Bible we ignore. Do you come from an ultra legalistic background?
No, mostly SBC except for a time in a nondenominational church.

Do you come from an ultra legalistic background?
Oldbear83
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curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.
Do you ever pray for others? Have you ever asked others to pray for you, or for others for whom you are concerned?

I do have a relationship with Mary and other saints, as well as people I have known who are no longer present. I do ask Jesus himself, as well as asking others to ask on my behalf. No different than a community praying for someone. Why not "both/and" - Jesus and others?

I invite you to consider the reality of the greater Communion of Saints beyond your limited "community of believers".
I pray for people I directly know, not people I never met.

Your mileage may differ.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Canon
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Porteroso said:

Mothra said:

trey3216 said:

GoldMind said:

Mothra said:

GoldMind said:

This isn't a send up of the style of worship that anyone chooses, I've just always been curious as to why some denominations like baptist are so far from the original church.

I am Episcopalian and have many catholic and orthodox friends. And one guy in my division is from Egypt and he's Coptic. Which is interesting.


So what liturgy do you believe the early church engaged in which Baptists do not?

I would argue it's just the opposite - there is little evidence of liturgy in the church of Acts.


There's 2000 years of tradition, and the Bible clearly supports contemplative prayer, worshiping as a group, affirming faith, the use of wine in holy eucharist, confession of sin and teaches us that Christ admonished his apostles to continue his mission. Liturgy just organizes it all. Christ and his disciples created the framework for an amalgamated form of worship, and being that they were a group of middle eastern Jews, they had clearly been following Jewish "liturgy" and law their entire lives.

Do you not think that this continuation of the jewish faith would have similar structure?
I think one of the reasons Baptists don't have standard liturgy and scripted organization is because it makes worshipping Christ a formality rather than a spiritual conversation from the heart.
Bingo. Can't tell you how many Presbyterian services I have sat through the years where the pastor reads a prayer from a script to the congregation, and we have our little script and are supposed to respond to it. None of it comes from the heart.

This is the biggest difference. Baptists have this monopoly on theology, this huge ego. They are above doing any regular thing the Bible asks. Other denominations make sure you can follow the Bible, at least on Sunday, in an organized manner. Baptists don't get it even more than those nailing Jesus to the cross. They are those same religious leaders, barely changed until today.


Do baptists tell non-baptists how to worship? Isn't it a bigger ego to think your one elected leader speaks directly for God or calling your church 'catholic', suggesting you are the only universal Christian church?
Canon
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Porteroso said:

Osodecentx said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.


Can you cite that scripture please.

Here's a start. https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/communion-bible-verses/
D. C. Bear
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Canon said:

Porteroso said:

Osodecentx said:

GoldMind said:

There's much of the Baptist denomination that I do not understand. Can anyone explain why the Eucharist is not taken every Sunday and why it's grape juice?
It's left up to the individual congregations to celebrate as their consciences dictate

A nice way of saying "screw the Bible." We are supposed to take wine as often as we meet, and any church contradicting the Bible is a pretender.


Can you cite that scripture please.

Here's a start. https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/communion-bible-verses/


No, he can't, because there is no scriptural mandate to take the Lord's Supper every Sunday.
Proud 1992 Alum
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This thread has been very interesting to read. I really don't understand praying to Mary, saints or dead relatives. I also don't understand the concept that the communion wine and bread are the literal blood and body of Christ. It makes sense to me that the wine and bread are symbolic. If anyone has an article on either subject, I would be interested in reading it.
Sam Lowry
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The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.
D. C. Bear
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Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
Sam Lowry
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D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.
LIB,MR BEARS
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D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
Someone show me the unflawed church.

Scripture has been wrongly used by EVERY denomination at one time or another. It is our job Christians to seek out the truth. If a pastor, priest or fellow Christian tells me something to be true, I don't typically don't accept it as truth until I find something in the Bible to support it.

There is a saying used by Allistair Begg, "The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things." We can argue over secondary points until we become enemies or we can choose to have minor differences and be brothers-in-Christ.

There will be Catholics in both heaven and hell just as there will be Baptist in both heaven and hell. Are you sharing the gospel or, are you being a stumbling block?
Canon
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Sam Lowry said:

D. C. Bear said:

Sam Lowry said:

The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.


So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?
I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.


So you are saying they are of use? What use?
curtpenn
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Oldbear83 said:

curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.
Do you ever pray for others? Have you ever asked others to pray for you, or for others for whom you are concerned?

I do have a relationship with Mary and other saints, as well as people I have known who are no longer present. I do ask Jesus himself, as well as asking others to ask on my behalf. No different than a community praying for someone. Why not "both/and" - Jesus and others?

I invite you to consider the reality of the greater Communion of Saints beyond your limited "community of believers".
I pray for people I directly know, not people I never met.

Your mileage may differ.


Do you ask others to pray for you and/or your other prayer concerns?
curtpenn
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Proud 1992 Alum said:

This thread has been very interesting to read. I really don't understand praying to Mary, saints or dead relatives. I also don't understand the concept that the communion wine and bread are the literal blood and body of Christ. It makes sense to me that the wine and bread are symbolic. If anyone has an article on either subject, I would be interested in reading it.


"This is my body... this is my blood". What could be more plain?

https://bible.org/seriespage/68-last-supper-luke-227-23

Once again, I believe it's counter productive to think of asking Mary or others to pray for you and the situations that are your prayer concerns as "praying to". It's no different from asking your pastor to pray for you, or bringing up your prayer requests in small groups or Sunday School.
Oldbear83
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curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.
Do you ever pray for others? Have you ever asked others to pray for you, or for others for whom you are concerned?

I do have a relationship with Mary and other saints, as well as people I have known who are no longer present. I do ask Jesus himself, as well as asking others to ask on my behalf. No different than a community praying for someone. Why not "both/and" - Jesus and others?

I invite you to consider the reality of the greater Communion of Saints beyond your limited "community of believers".
I pray for people I directly know, not people I never met.

Your mileage may differ.


Do you ask others to pray for you and/or your other prayer concerns?
People I know, sometimes yes. But never strangers or people who have no idea who I am.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Proud 1992 Alum
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Not to be disrespectful of your religious beliefs, but I don't see the similarity between asking a family member or friend to pray to God on my behalf and asking a human being who died 2,000 years ago to intercede on my behalf. That makes sense with Jesus because he is a divine supernatural being. While I believe Mary and all dead Christians are in heaven with God, I don't think they are following things on earth. Wouldn't asking a dead relative for intercession for a gravely ill child cause that dead relative to feel grief or anxiety etc? I have always thought of heaven as an end to earthly heartache and pain.
Coke Bear
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Proud 1992 Alum said:

Not to be disrespectful of your religious beliefs, but I don't see the similarity between asking a family member or friend to pray to God on my behalf and asking a human being who died 2,000 years ago to intercede on my behalf. That makes sense with Jesus because he is a divine supernatural being. While I believe Mary and all dead Christians are in heaven with God, I don't think they are following things on earth. Wouldn't asking a dead relative for intercession for a gravely ill child cause that dead relative to feel grief or anxiety etc? I have always thought of heaven as an end to earthly heartache and pain.
"He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living" - Mark 12:27

The saints in heaven are more alive than us on earth. They are experiencing the beatific vision. They are perfected in holiness. They have nothing but love in their hearts.
Coke Bear
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Oldbear83 said:

People I know, sometimes yes. But never strangers or people who have no idea who I am.

Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?

When a pastor offers a prayer at a football game, graduation ceremony, etc, does he know EVERY single person?

Where does it say in the Bible that pray only works for those we know?

Why would God only let prayer be effective for those who know each other? Is God that limiting?
Oldbear83
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"Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?"

Actually, yes he does.

And he never prays to Jesus' earthly relatives.
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
Coke Bear
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Proud 1992 Alum said:

This thread has been very interesting to read. I really don't understand praying to Mary, saints or dead relatives. I also don't understand the concept that the communion wine and bread are the literal blood and body of Christ. It makes sense to me that the wine and bread are symbolic. If anyone has an article on either subject, I would be interested in reading it.
Thank you for asking an open and honest question. Here are two articles/audios on the Eucharist. You may not accept this, but these are frank explanations of the Catholic position:

Eucharist 1
Eucharist 2

Here's two short ones on Mary and the Saints:

Mary
Mary and the Saints
Coke Bear
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Oldbear83 said:

"Does your pastor know EVERY single person in the congregation on every Sunday?"

Actually, yes he does.

And he never prays to Jesus' earthly relatives.
And the rest of the questions in my above post?

Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "prays to Jesus' earthly relatives"?
curtpenn
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Coke Bear said:

Proud 1992 Alum said:

This thread has been very interesting to read. I really don't understand praying to Mary, saints or dead relatives. I also don't understand the concept that the communion wine and bread are the literal blood and body of Christ. It makes sense to me that the wine and bread are symbolic. If anyone has an article on either subject, I would be interested in reading it.
Thank you for asking an open and honest question. Here are two articles/audios on the Eucharist. You may not accept this, but these are frank explanations of the Catholic position:

Eucharist 1
Eucharist 2

Here's two short ones on Mary and the Saints:

Mary
Mary and the Saints

Thanks for the links. Will check them out. Honestly, though 40+ years a Southern Baptist, later in life I lean Catholic - just not Roman Catholic; too great a cultural leap for me. The Via Media of the Anglican church as essentially Reformed Catholic (though I know Rome cannot agree) is comforting and comfortable to me.

I've been blessed by the works of Thomas Cranmer, Richard Hooker, and especially Lancelot Andrewes over the last 20+ years. Here's an excerpt and link to an exposition of one of Andrewes' sermons on the Eucharist:

"By tying all of these things together; the Incarnation, Christ's partaking of our nature, our partaking of his body and blood, our partaking of his divine nature, with "the receiving of [the sacrament of communion with his Body and Blood] by us a means whereby He might 'dwell in us, and we in Him,'" Lancelot Andrewes unlocks the glorious mysteries of God's grace in the sacrament. He unlocks for modern readers, especially those who are not scholars, the deeper meaning of Cranmer and Hooker who were before him, who emphasized "the communion of the blood of Christ...the communion of the body of Christ."

Modern readers, especially those who have been unaware of the original Greek New Testament, have mistaken the word "communion" for something that places the Real Presence of Christ a step away from us, as it were. Instead, this same word that speaks of the fellowship of the Eternal Son with the flesh and blood he took into His own Person, brings us as close as possible; it puts us in Christ and Christ in us. We are joined to His Divine Nature as he joined His uncreated Person to our created nature. It cannot get closer than this. That is Real presence in the sacrament.

Communion, fellowship, with His Body and Blood is all about the glorious hope of our calling and election: He took our created nature, so that we may take his body and blood, and so we partake of his Divine Nature."

http://anglicancontinuum.blogspot.com/2009/12/lancelot-andrewes-on-eucharisric.html
curtpenn
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Proud 1992 Alum said:

Not to be disrespectful of your religious beliefs, but I don't see the similarity between asking a family member or friend to pray to God on my behalf and asking a human being who died 2,000 years ago to intercede on my behalf. That makes sense with Jesus because he is a divine supernatural being. While I believe Mary and all dead Christians are in heaven with God, I don't think they are following things on earth. Wouldn't asking a dead relative for intercession for a gravely ill child cause that dead relative to feel grief or anxiety etc? I have always thought of heaven as an end to earthly heartache and pain.
I understand what you are saying because that is how I thought most of my life prior to being confirmed in the Episcopal Church 20+ years ago. Post-Reformation denominations dispensed with much that was believed by most Christians in most places at most times as a reaction against Rome. I believe much of great value was lost in that process, though I understand why.

The basic notion is that all believers are eternally part of the Communion of Saints which knows no temporal bounds. The celebration of the Eucharist is a physical reminder of this reality as we gather at the Lord's Table to observe and celebrate his Passion along with the Mystical Body of all faithful people. We are all alive in Christ now and eternally.

I invite you to consider that heaven is infinitely more than an end to earthly heartache and pain. I commend to you the last bit of CS Lewis' novel, The Last Battle:

"Then Aslan turned to them and said: "You do not yet look so happy as I mean you to be." Lucy said, "We're so afraid of being sent away, Aslan. And you have sent us back into our own world so often." "No fear of that," said Aslan. "Have you not guessed?" Their hearts leaped and a wild hope rose within them. "There was a real railway accident," said Aslan softly. "Your father and mother and all of you are - as you used to call it in the Shadowlands - dead. The term is over: the holidays have begun. The dream is ended: this is the morning." And as He spoke He no longer looked to them like a lion; but the things that began to happen after that were so great and beautiful that I cannot write them. And for us this is the end of all the stories, and we can most truly say that they all lived happily ever after. But for them it was only the beginning of the real story. All their life in this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has read: which goes on forever: in which every chapter is better than the one before."

Blessings +
curtpenn
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Proud 1992 Alum said:

Not to be disrespectful of your religious beliefs, but I don't see the similarity between asking a family member or friend to pray to God on my behalf and asking a human being who died 2,000 years ago to intercede on my behalf. That makes sense with Jesus because he is a divine supernatural being. While I believe Mary and all dead Christians are in heaven with God, I don't think they are following things on earth. Wouldn't asking a dead relative for intercession for a gravely ill child cause that dead relative to feel grief or anxiety etc? I have always thought of heaven as an end to earthly heartache and pain.
If you like reading, I commend to you the works of Peter Kreeft; raised Lutheran but converted to Roman Catholic and a prolific apologist/author who has been on the faculty at Boston College for decades. I probably have at least a dozen of his books on my bookshelf. He is very skilled at speaking to most theological issues in a way that makes sense to we lay people.

https://peterkreeft.com/featured-writing.htm
curtpenn
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Oldbear83 said:

curtpenn said:

Oldbear83 said:

"asking Mary to pray for me is no different than asking my own mother to pray for me."

Yes, it very much is different. You have a relationship, a direct and important one, with your mother. With all due respect to Mary, you have never met and have no relationship, so there is no reason you should reach to her when you can just ask Jesus Himself.

Here's the thing for me. We are a community of believers, so it makes perfect sense for someone to ask someone else for help, and even more for a believer to ask the Father to help someone he or she knows needs His help. But we need to avoid the dangers of tokenism and icon worship, and calling anyone "Mother of God" gets way too close to the cliff.
Do you ever pray for others? Have you ever asked others to pray for you, or for others for whom you are concerned?

I do have a relationship with Mary and other saints, as well as people I have known who are no longer present. I do ask Jesus himself, as well as asking others to ask on my behalf. No different than a community praying for someone. Why not "both/and" - Jesus and others?

I invite you to consider the reality of the greater Communion of Saints beyond your limited "community of believers".
I pray for people I directly know, not people I never met.

Your mileage may differ.
Are you praying to your pastor when you ask him to pray for you or your other concerns?
 
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