It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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BearTruth13 said:

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Also the whole scandal in the early 2000s really showed a dark side to the Catholic structure.

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no it didn't. It showed the dark side of human nature.

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Yes, and really the dark side of all human structures where the organization and serving the organization becomes more important than the people it is supposed to serve.

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The former youth director at the church I grew up in who had become a pastor of his own SBC church had an affair with an underage girl he was counciling. After a couple years of coverup and denials, from both him and church leadership, he finally resigned.

Sin doesn't have a denomination nor does coverup

---

My wife and I met as singles at Prestonwood in 1982. Were later members at First, Dallas and Park Cities. Considering the extra curricular activities of Billy Webber, Joel Gregory, and Alan Walworth, we used to joke that perhaps we carried a curse along with our membership.

Proud 1992 Alum said:

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It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.

---

I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.

Side note: I still refer to my Scoffield, Ryrie, and Criswell study Bibles from time to time though I abandoned Dispensationalism a long time ago, decided Calvinism may or may not be accurate, and have become indifferent to conversations re Pre-, Post-, or Amillennialism. I simply embrace the mystery and hope for a happy outcome trusting in the work of our Lord and Savior.

curtpenn said:

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Proud 1992 Alum said:

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It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.

---

I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.

---

curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

The conflation is yours. I'm simply asking for prayers. Play all the semantic games you wish.

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

Nobody prays TO anyone except God and Jesus. We (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox) ask certain saints to watch over us, George, Christopher, Michael etc.

No one would ask Mary forgiveness, wisdom etc.

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

The conflation is yours. I'm simply asking for prayers. Play all the semantic games you wish.

---

BS.

You know full well there is not a single instruction or example in Scripture of praying TO a human.

And you admitted you pray TO Mary in an earlier post, which makes sense, because how else will you make contact with her?

That is the point and that is the problem.

You see no sin in behavior which is unpleasantly similar to a seance.

Oldbear83 said:

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curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

The conflation is yours. I'm simply asking for prayers. Play all the semantic games you wish.

---

BS.

You know full well there is not a single instruction or example in Scripture of praying TO a human.

And you admitted you pray TO Mary in an earlier post, which makes sense, because how else will you make contact with her?

That is the point and that is the problem.

You see no sin in behavior which is unpleasantly similar to a seance.

---

Your responses are beginning to verge on the comical. Thanks for the chuckles.

curtpenn said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

The conflation is yours. I'm simply asking for prayers. Play all the semantic games you wish.

---

BS.

You know full well there is not a single instruction or example in Scripture of praying TO a human.

And you admitted you pray TO Mary in an earlier post, which makes sense, because how else will you make contact with her?

That is the point and that is the problem.

You see no sin in behavior which is unpleasantly similar to a seance.

---

Your responses are beginning to verge on the comical. Thanks for the chuckles.

---

Evasion. Expected, but still disappointing.

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

The conflation is yours. I'm simply asking for prayers. Play all the semantic games you wish.

---

BS.

You know full well there is not a single instruction or example in Scripture of praying TO a human.

And you admitted you pray TO Mary in an earlier post, which makes sense, because how else will you make contact with her?

That is the point and that is the problem.

You see no sin in behavior which is unpleasantly similar to a seance.

---

Your responses are beginning to verge on the comical. Thanks for the chuckles.

---

Evasion. Expected, but still disappointing.

---

And yet I have not seen any scripture forbidding requesting intercessory prayer. What do you have?

I rejected your brand of juridical/legalistic faith a long time ago and discovered a richness and depth in my faith walk that I never knew existed. No need now for neo-Pharisees or Roman Popes.

GoldMind said:

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Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

Nobody prays TO anyone except God and Jesus. We (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox) ask certain saints to watch over us, George, Christopher, Michael etc.

No one would ask Mary forgiveness, wisdom etc.

---

Why? Is it not sufficient to have the Creator of the universe watch over us? Is His Son insufficient to redeem us? Is it insufficient for the Spirit to dwell in us?

D. C. Bear said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

Nobody prays TO anyone except God and Jesus. We (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox) ask certain saints to watch over us, George, Christopher, Michael etc.

No one would ask Mary forgiveness, wisdom etc.

---

Why? Is it not sufficient to have the Creator of the universe watch over us? Is His Son insufficient to redeem us? Is it insufficient for the Spirit to dwell in us?

---

Why are we told over and over again to pray for one another? Is intercessory prayer not needed or efficacious?

You obviously have not bothered to read all of my posts, curtpenn. There is good in asking a believer to pray for you. The problem with Mary and all the departed believers in that role is twofold:

1 you cannot reach them by mail, text, phone, visit or anyway that you could reach out to a person alive on earth. You instead use a method not used even once in Scripture, which is not advisable

2 there is a big difference in asking someone who knows you as family or friend to speak on your behalf, and asking someone you never personally met to do so. That risks idolizing that person


I want to emphasize again that I am not sitting as anyone's judge, but like someone at a party suggesting that someone might want to hand over their car keys after a few drinks.

D. C. Bear said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

Nobody prays TO anyone except God and Jesus. We (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox) ask certain saints to watch over us, George, Christopher, Michael etc.

No one would ask Mary forgiveness, wisdom etc.

---

Why? Is it not sufficient to have the Creator of the universe watch over us? Is His Son insufficient to redeem us? Is it insufficient for the Spirit to dwell in us?

---

The creator of the universe chose man as his proclaimers. He made his son man, and created man in his image. If men are so insignificant, what are we doing?

We pray in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. By baptism, taking the sacraments, men become part of the Holy Spirit through Christ.

I do it because that's how I feel close to God and have done so for 34 years. Need all the prayer I can get.

How exactly do you contact saints and angels, Goldmind?

My cell service wont reach there, and email won't work either.

Oldbear83 said:

---

How exactly do you contact saints and angels, Goldmind?

My cell service wont reach there, and email won't work either.

---

You remind me of the rich man in the parable of Lazarus.

Indeed? Explain please.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Indeed? Explain please.

---

No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

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Indeed? Explain please.

---

No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

---

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.

Oldbear83 said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Indeed? Explain please.

---

No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

---

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.

---

The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

curtpenn said:

---

Proud 1992 Alum said:

---

It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.

---

I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.

---

Again, with all due respect, this does not a good argument make. You have not a single example you can point to in scripture of prayers to long dead mortals, and your position is because the bible doesn't say you cannot do it, it must be ok? I would argue that the fact Christ constantly references that he is the only way to God is our answer.

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

Nobody prays TO anyone except God and Jesus. We (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox) ask certain saints to watch over us, George, Christopher, Michael etc.

No one would ask Mary forgiveness, wisdom etc.

---

But is there any evidence that dead mortals actually watch over you?

curtpenn said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Nowhere in Scripture are believers told to pray to humans.

Not. Even. Once.

---

Holy Scripture is full of instruction to pray for one another. Sorry you are unable to grasp this simple truth. Requesting intercessory prayer is simply asking for prayers.

---

Show me one verse where we were told to pray TO a human, alive or dead. You are being dishonest to conflate praying for someone into praying to someone.

---

Nobody prays TO anyone except God and Jesus. We (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox) ask certain saints to watch over us, George, Christopher, Michael etc.

No one would ask Mary forgiveness, wisdom etc.

---

Why? Is it not sufficient to have the Creator of the universe watch over us? Is His Son insufficient to redeem us? Is it insufficient for the Spirit to dwell in us?

---

Why are we told over and over again to pray for one another? Is intercessory prayer not needed or efficacious?

---

You conflate praying for one another with asking our dead forefathers to watch over us?

Hmmm.

Canon said:

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Canon said:

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Did Jesus give us explicit instructions on how to pray? In those instructions, did He tell us precisely to Whom we are to pray?

(See Matthew 6)

---

Any Catholic friends care to answer these?

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Indeed he did.

Sam Lowry said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Canon said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

---

So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

---

I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

---

So you are saying they are of use? What use?

---

Reducing the penance endured after death.

---

What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

---

"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

---

These verses do not support the idea that there will be penance after death (another idea that Catholicism has added to scripture).

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Indeed? Explain please.

---

No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

---

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.

---

The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

---

I have, actually. You, whether you realize it or not, are doing just what you falsely accuse me of doing.

I get it that you don't like the idea that praying to a dead human might be a bad thing. I get it that you will ignore any explanation that shows that intercessory prayer by someone alive that you know is nowhere near the same thing as praying to a dead person you never met, hoping to improve your standing with God by name-dropping.

I even get it that you resort to spiteful attacks to try to shut up anything that might challenge your habits. That's natural for a lot of people, but this issue is important, in part for the historical impact it had on the creation of the Protestant Reformation, and in part for the erosion of faith in Christ by reaching out to humans instead of our Lord for the things we need.

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Proud 1992 Alum said:

---

It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.

---

I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.

---

Again, with all due respect, this does not a good argument make. You have not a single example you can point to in scripture of prayers to long dead mortals, and your position is because the bible doesn't say you cannot do it, it must be ok? I would argue that the fact Christ constantly references that he is the only way to God is our answer.

---

Revelation 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11

Saints are not dead, but fully alive in Christ see John 11:25, 14:6.

There are other examples, see Genesis 20:7 and also Job 42:8.

Oldbear83 said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Indeed? Explain please.

---

No, I won't.

You can go read it though, Luke 16:19-31

---

I am familiar with it, and it does not seem to support what you imply.

I am not a rich man who ignores poor beggars while throwing parties. Neither are you, for that matter. And neither of us is a beggar who lives in abject suffering, so you can forget that notion.

There is one interesting aspect to the story you mention, however. The rich man asks Abraham twice to do things for him, and is twice rejected. The second time, when the rich man asks Abraham to speak to his brothers, Abraham reminds him that the brothers have "Moses and the Prophets", meaning Scripture. So in that story, Abraham is quoted telling the man that Scripture is there for guidance and direction, and we are not to depend on people who no longer live on the earth.

---

The rich man, even in hell, is still all about himself. Abraham tells him why he's there, and he's still too stupid and selfish to repent. Instead, he asks Abraham to send Lazarus to intercede on his brothers, who are probably *******s as well, behalf.

So, instead of cracking stupid jokes about cell phones, perhaps you can offer something of substance to this discussion.

---

I have, actually. You, whether you realize it or not, are doing just what you falsely accuse me of doing.

I get it that you don't like the idea that praying to a dead human might be a bad thing. I get it that you will ignore any explanation that shows that intercessory prayer by someone alive that you know is nowhere near the same thing as praying to a dead person you never met, hoping to improve your standing with God by name-dropping.

I even get it that you resort to spiteful attacks to try to shut up anything that might challenge your habits. That's natural for a lot of people, but this issue is important, in part for the historical impact it had on the creation of the Protestant Reformation, and in part for the erosion of faith in Christ by reaching out to humans instead of our Lord for the things we need.

---

Yea that's in your head, just like Rhule is a crappy coach.

You've been a complete turd since you joined this board.

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Proud 1992 Alum said:

---

It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.

---

I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.

---

Again, with all due respect, this does not a good argument make. You have not a single example you can point to in scripture of prayers to long dead mortals, and your position is because the bible doesn't say you cannot do it, it must be ok? I would argue that the fact Christ constantly references that he is the only way to God is our answer.

---

Revelation 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11

Saints are not dead, but fully alive in Christ see John 11:25, 14:6.

There are other examples, see Genesis 20:7 and also Job 42:8.

---

To clarify, I meant dead on the earth. There is no scriptural support for the position that saints hear our prayers, much less intercede on our behalf. And certainly, there is no scriptural support for the position that we should pray to them, or ask for their intercession.

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Proud 1992 Alum said:

---

It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.

---

I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.

---

Again, with all due respect, this does not a good argument make. You have not a single example you can point to in scripture of prayers to long dead mortals, and your position is because the bible doesn't say you cannot do it, it must be ok? I would argue that the fact Christ constantly references that he is the only way to God is our answer.

---

Revelation 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11

Saints are not dead, but fully alive in Christ see John 11:25, 14:6.

There are other examples, see Genesis 20:7 and also Job 42:8.

---

To clarify, I meant dead on the earth. There is no scriptural support for the position that saints hear our prayers, much less intercede on our behalf. And certainly, there is no scriptural support for the position that we should pray to them, or ask for their intercession.

---

At this point, you DC and Oldbear83 just don't care enough to consider what the majority of Christians worldwide have accepted for centuries.

People forget quickly, Martin Luther and Henry VIII didnt have an issue with theology, they had an issue with ecclesiastical order.

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

GoldMind said:

---

Mothra said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Proud 1992 Alum said:

---

It seems that posters are talking past each other on here because of a central disagreement. Some believe that a living human can communicate with a biologically dead but spiritually alive human. Therefore, they believe that they can communicate with Mary, saints, relatives, or any believer, including asking these biologically dead believers to pray for them. Others, including myself, don't believe in communicating with biologically dead humans despite the fact that we believe each biologically dead believer's soul is spiritually alive.

---

I don't think we are talking past each other at all. We just have differing views on the Communion of Saints. One side mostly argues from silence and the other has 2000 years of teaching and practice. I totally understand the reaction contra Rome. Just think it went too far.

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Again, with all due respect, this does not a good argument make. You have not a single example you can point to in scripture of prayers to long dead mortals, and your position is because the bible doesn't say you cannot do it, it must be ok? I would argue that the fact Christ constantly references that he is the only way to God is our answer.

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Revelation 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11

Saints are not dead, but fully alive in Christ see John 11:25, 14:6.

There are other examples, see Genesis 20:7 and also Job 42:8.

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To clarify, I meant dead on the earth. There is no scriptural support for the position that saints hear our prayers, much less intercede on our behalf. And certainly, there is no scriptural support for the position that we should pray to them, or ask for their intercession.

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At this point, you DC and Oldbear83 just don't care enough to consider what the majority of Christians worldwide have accepted for centuries.

People forget quickly, Martin Luther and Henry VIII didnt have an issue with theology, they had an issue with ecclesiastical order.

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I use scripture as my guide for determining whether man-made denominations are accurate in their beliefs and practices. As we all should.

And Martin Luther's central teachings were that the Bible is the central source of religious authority and that salvation is reached through faith and not deeds, which diverged from Catholicism and shaped the core of Protestantism.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Canon said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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The Church Fathers are full of references to transubstantiation and intercessory prayer. Not a big deal. This hoopla is just another product of the so-called Reformation.

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So, would you be willing to make sure my sins are forgiven if I sponsor a brick in your new cathedral?

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I assume you're referring to indulgences? They would not be of any use unless your sins were already forgiven.

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So you are saying they are of use? What use?

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Reducing the penance endured after death.

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What penance after death? Did Jesus Christ pay the penalty for my sins or did he not?

"It Is FINISHED". Not it's a down payment. Not a 50/50 split. Not 90/10. Not 99/1. PAID IN FULL.

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"With what grace God has bestowed on me, I have laid a foundation as a careful architect should; it is left for someone else to build upon it. Only, whoever builds on it must be careful how he builds. The foundation which has been laid is the only one which anybody can lay; I mean Jesus Christ. But on this foundation different men will build in gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, or straw, and each man's workmanship will be plainly seen. It is the day of the Lord that will disclose it, since that day is to reveal itself in fire, and fire will test the quality of each man's workmanship. He will receive a reward, if the building he has added on stands firm; if it is burnt up, he will be the loser; and yet he himself will be saved, though only as men are saved by passing through fire."

1 Corinthians 3:10-15

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Then perhaps my understanding on penance is different than yours. What is yours?

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I understand it as a temporary, rather than eternal, punishment for sin.