Thanks for a thoughtful and not inflammatory response.Osodecentx said:Black churches did lead out. Do you know of any major denominational churches that won't allow Black families in the church? I don't. Don't you think that is an improvement?J.B.Katz said:Black churches led the Civil Rights movement.Osodecentx said:You need to change churches.J.B.Katz said:Back when "religious values" were promoted as a basis for American culture (one nation, under God), we had Jim Crow laws and then strict segregation in the South, women didn't have equal opportunities for education or employment, contraception was outlawed in some states, rape was generally viewed as the fault of the woman, drunk driving was a misdeanor and considered an "accident," state colleges supported with taxpayer dollars could reject black applicants, and belting kids with a leather strap was an accepted form of punishment.Osodecentx said:The reason we're in decline is because of the efforts to diminish religious valuesTexasScientist said:It would take at least three generations of educating children about sciences, mathmatics, world history, democracy and captialism in an effort to break or moderate their fanatical religious views.Osodecentx said:This is a Trump policy, too.TexasScientist said:It will be inexcusible, a tragedy, and a travesty of justice in terms of what is fair and right to those who have risked their lives relying on U.S. assurances and ability to bring change to Afghanistan. They most cerainly have been given a death sentence by the Biden administration.Osodecentx said:We need to get as many out as possible. We evacuated many Vietnamese who fought with us.CHP Bear said:Wonder what the over and under is for executed interpreters and family members?Osodecentx said:Does anyone believe the Taliban are not going to take over Afghanistan when we're gone?CHP Bear said:"If", "Unexpected"TexasScientist said:
President Joe Biden's decision to withdraw a residual U.S. force could look like an amateurish, unforced error if an expected Taliban resurgence materializes.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/07/opinion-biden-afghan-withdrawal-498702
It will be inexcusible, a tragedy, and a travesty of justice in terms of what is fair and right to those who have risked their lives relying on U.S. assurances and ability to bring change to Afghanistan.
That is where the USA is right now. It's what nation in decline looks like
Religious people led the civil rights movement. Get a copy of Eyes on the Prize by Williams
Most white churches wouldn't allow Black families to worship there. I was a kid in the 1950s and a teenager in the 1960s and my church refused to allow Black people in. So much for "red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight."
You're deflecting.
My point is that we have never been one nation under God. Like all nations, we have an ugly history of abusing immigrants and minorities and people we've conquered (native Americans) both thorugh the law and despite the law.
The idea that the past was some kind of Christian-values utopia that we've now moved away from is bunk.
What has changed significantly is that a lot more people went to church in the past. That change, where churches are losing members, is not due to a decline in values. Policy-wise, we're trying to treat all people, including women and minorities, better than we did in the past. It's due to the politicization of churches and the rank hypocrisy of religious leaders who lie about, ignore or cover up child abuse by pedophile priests / pastors, commit financial fraud and cheer false prophets like Trump on for waving a Bible upside down from the steps of a church he didn't belong to.
I agree that America has never been one nation under God and she has some sad chapters in her history. I've never claimed America was a Christian values utopia, but we're sure not getting any closer now.
All mainline denominations are losing parishioners. Most of the increased politicization to which you refer (and I agree there has been increased politicization) has been on the liberal side of the argument. Homosexual marriage, transgenders, and abortion are just 3 examples. In those churches it is no longer good enough to embrace homosexuals, they expect me to embrace the lifestyle and say it is normal. Those churches, most churches actually, tare silent in the cases of a deacon/elder having an affair (while in leadership) or young adults (POSSLQ) cohabiting. This isn't God's best for the POSSLQs, homosexual, or transgenders.
So in summary, the Christian church has never been perfect and never will be. If that is your standard, then all fall short. My observation is that most are striving to become better and more accurately reflect the love of Jesus.
I honestly don't believe any church expects you "to embrace a lifstyle and say it is normal." If one tenet of your religious beliefs is that homosexuality is a sin and another is that abortion should never be permitted under any circumstance, because God should make all decisions about reproduction (which is the way I'd characterize the Catholic doctrine), there are plenty of churches where leaders and members share your beliefs. They remain free to enforce those beliefs by refusing to ordain homosexuals and even kicking people who are openly gay and unapologetic about that out of the congregation. Women who go to those churches are free to act on their beliefs about abortion.
One reason churches are losing members is that leaders of these churches too often don't practice in private what they preach from the pulpit. Remember the pentacostal preacher from CO Springs who got outed for hiring gay prostitutes? "It's OK for me but not for thee" is not a message that resonates with people under 40.
In a nation with separation of church and state, however, those beliefs should not be codified into law.
Republicans face a conundrum; they present themselves as the party of personal freedom, but then try to limit that freedom to gun rights and other conservative-approved activities, while imposing limits on other personal freedoms, like someone's decision to be openly gay and chose a same-sex spouse or a woman's decision to end a pregnancy. In for a penny, in for a pound with the personal freedom tenet; you either believe in it and accept that this will mean some people are free to commit sins you don't approve of, or you don't, in which case you shouldn't whinge about masks, social distancing, reasonable gun regulations, school systems requiring students to be vaccinated for a host of illnesses from polio to typhoid to diptheria to tetanus to measles.