Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

Wangchung said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

If you vote for and promote democrats you don't have to worry about any of this stuff, save for public virtue signaling. No modern day democrat can truly be a Christian.

---

These beliefs are existential for you and me.
They are theological statements that you probably subscribed to. They are Biblical. Do you live them or simply believe them.

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

CammoTX said:

---

Does God create this world toward love, justice and hope?

God allows and wills evil to exist in this world for his glory. If this world can give us justice, why would we need God?

---

"This world" does not give us justice. I said "God" not the world.

So where is the Holy spirit?

The thoughts seem to be philosophical. I am not sure they can be put into a finite logic box.

My faith is based on acceptance of the Holy Spirit.

Guy Noir said:

---

So where is the Holy spirit?

The thoughts seem to be philosophical. I am not sure they can be put into a finite logic box.

My faith is based on acceptance of the Holy Spirit.

---

The Holy Spirit indeed is all around us.

To speak of God and God's action here and now is always to speak of humankind and how humans open themselves to self understanding, doing the next loving thing and possibilities for change and new life.
All theological beliefs are here and now, existential happenings. That is God acts in history and in each humans history.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

---

God may seek love, justice, and hope but the prince of the power of the air has other ideas. Both the Bible and the daily headlines tell us which side is winning at the moment.

The Bible is also quite clear that sins are forgiven when forgiveness is sought, and not otherwise.

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

---

The fact God is love does not equate to all sins are forgiven. Indeed God shows otherwise throughout scripture - people are regularly disciplined for their sin.

God showed his love by throwing man a lifeline named Jesus.

---

At the end of life is God love or punishment?

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

---

God may seek love, justice, and hope but the prince of the power of the air has other ideas. Both the Bible and the daily headlines tell us which side is winning at the moment.

The Bible is also quite clear that sins are forgiven when forgiveness is sought, and not otherwise.

---

Can you prove there is a "power of the air?"

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

---

The fact God is love does not equate to all sins are forgiven. Indeed God shows otherwise throughout scripture - people are regularly disciplined for their sin.

God showed his love by throwing man a lifeline named Jesus.

---

At the end of life is God love or punishment?

---

Depends on whether you grabbed the life line.

---

So God is punishment if I choose wrong?

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

---

The fact God is love does not equate to all sins are forgiven. Indeed God shows otherwise throughout scripture - people are regularly disciplined for their sin.

God showed his love by throwing man a lifeline named Jesus.

---

At the end of life is God love or punishment?

---

Depends on whether you grabbed the life line.

---

So God is punishment if I choose wrong?

---

I am not sure what "God is punishment" means, but God very clearly says throughout scripture there are repercussions for failing to repent and believe in his Son, absolutely.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

---

As an Episcopalian, much of what you say sounds to me like typical Episcobabble.

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

I didn't set up anything. What are you on about? SMH... same old, same old with you.

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

---

So God does punish?

curtpenn said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

I didn't set up anything. What are you on about? SMH... same old, same old with you.

---

Yes you did. Either believe of perish. Is that right?

Episcopalbabbel is not helpful.
My argument is "God is love." Indeed God threw me a lifeline but if I do not grab it your position is clear; I go to hell.
Is this a correct position for you?
If not, then why not?
I'm anxious to hear your response

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

---

The fact God is love does not equate to all sins are forgiven. Indeed God shows otherwise throughout scripture - people are regularly disciplined for their sin.

God showed his love by throwing man a lifeline named Jesus.

---

At the end of life is God love or punishment?

---

Depends on whether you grabbed the life line.

---

So God is punishment if I choose wrong?

---

I am not sure what "God is punishment" means, but God very clearly says throughout scripture there are repercussions for failing to repent and believe in his Son, absolutely.

---

And is that repercussion the way God set up human life?

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

You have a lifetime to accept Christ. If, in your free will, you have chosen to reject him, how would it be loving for Him to force Himself on you?

Every young lady knows a man cannot force her to love him. Why do you think God can force a person to love Him?

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

---

So God does punish?

---

Stands condemned, ALREADY.

You said you were a preacher, right?

Waco1947 said:

---

curtpenn said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

I didn't set up anything. What are you on about? SMH... same old, same old with you.

---

Yes you did. Either believe of perish. Is that right?

---

You should check to see who post what. That way you don't appear to be either foolish, drunk or both.

Unless you are referring to another thread, Curt didn't say that.

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

---

So God does punish?

---

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So it would stand to reason that if I don't "open the door", I will not sup with Him.

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Premise 1 God continues to create this world toward love, justice and hope
Premise 2 God is love
2a Jesus is Lord
2b God reigns in grace.
2c The Holy Spirit guides and sustains us.
2d God calls us to social action - God performs mighty deeds with God's arm.
God scatters those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
God brings down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
God fills the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. (Luke1)
Premise 3 Theological statements summons us to action in our lives.
Premise 4 God forgives all sin (see Premise 1)
Conclusion: We, Christians, continually decide in this real world and in our own existence, how we understand ourselves and if we will affirm these statements with our lives and faith. We proclaim our theological statements with our lives or we don't.
.

---

Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going.

Premise 4 is only partly true - God forgives all sin *when He is asked.*

---

" Premise 1 is contrary to what the Bible says - the world is in a downward spiral. Christians may be called to seek love and justice and hope, but that is not the way that the world is going."
God continues to seek and create love , justice, and hope. I said God seeks justice, love and hope not the world.
And is you believe God working in this world then what you doing about it?
Premise 4 relates to Premise #1 "God is love." Which means all is forgiven not the consequences but all sin.

---

God may seek love, justice, and hope but the prince of the power of the air has other ideas. Both the Bible and the daily headlines tell us which side is winning at the moment.

The Bible is also quite clear that sins are forgiven when forgiveness is sought, and not otherwise.

---

Can you prove there is a "power of the air?"

---

Do you ever read your own post?

Waco1947 said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Not a false dilemma. You set up the dichotomy. So which is it love or punishment?
I choose wrong and God punishes me?

---

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

---

So God does punish?

---

You call it punishment. Others might call it getting what we deserve. But absolutely, there are consequences to unrepentant sin. I don't know how any reasonable person could read what I quoted and state otherwise.

Neither is incompatible with the idea that God is love.