With regard to Russia, I suppose it depends on how one defines "anti-Christian. When you're jailing Christians for spreading the Good News, and missionaries to your country must keep their identifies and purpose for being there secret for risk of prosecution, I would submit any reasonable person would call that "anti-Christian." When you are violently jailing and torturing evangelical Christian pastors in occupied Ukraine, again, I believe most reasonable people would find that "anti-Christian."

If on the other hand, your definition of "anti-Christian" is so narrowly-defined to mean a total ban on all forms of Christianity, such as a NK or Afghanistan, ok, sure, Russia isn't "anti-Christian" using that very narrow definition. But with all due respect, I don't think that's an intellectually honest position, and could easily be described as "grasping at things" to defend Russia on this point - something of which you've accused your opponents.

Now, I understand that Russia isn't Afghanistan, and shares some of the values of cultural Christianity. I also understand that despite being unsafe for Christians, it is not among the most hostile countries in the world to Christianity. But again, when a country bans the Great Commission, as Russia has indeed done, and is jailing those who violate that law, there is no other term to describe that law than "anti-Christian" despite the best efforts of some of the non-Christian Russian shills on this board (see Sam) to argue otherwise.

Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.

"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

Mothra said:

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Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.

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LOL you have a very hard time crafting a post without a strawman.

Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

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"I'll take "Silly Straw Men" for $100, Alex."

whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

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"I'll take "Silly Straw Men" for $100, Alex."

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Take Intro to Logic instead. If you want to misattribute a fallacy, you'll at least know what to call it.

sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

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Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

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You are painting an overly rosey picture of Christianity inside of Ukriane

[Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers.]

It's a cultural thing in Ukraine just like Greece or Romania

Everyone will basically mark Christian down on paper as their religion…regardless of if they really practice it

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/ukraine/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20annual%20November,the%20same%20as%20in%202021.

But again. Not sure why this matters it's not a religious war over who is more Christian

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Are you asking me to choose between the lesser of the evils in this binary juxtaposition? Very interesting. Never would have thunk-it.

But this one is easy. I choose freedom, each and every time. I choose the pagan society where the harvesters are allowed to freely harvest, and the fields are teeming with crops, as opposed to the pagan society where the harvesters are barred from picking the crops. Your mistake here is believing that an "Orthodox Russia" is in any way truly Christian because it shares some culturally-conservative Christian values when the fact is it is every bit as godless as Europe.

Again, I suspect our difference in opinion comes down to what we believe Christianity really is. Is it merely a set of values and cultural norms and traditions, or is it a faith that can save people's souls and is required to be shared? I can understand why someone who believes it is the former would prefer an "Orthodox Russia" to one that looks like Europe or even America.

BTW, I continue to find it ironic that a guy who prefers the authoritarianism of Russia to Europe continues to cite authoritarianism as the reason he will not vote for Trump.

whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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Thanks. I remember you being pro-US involvement in Ukraine in the past, and wanted to see if your position now extended to committing troops to engage in WWIII, as whiterock (not me) is advocating on this thread.

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LOL you have a very hard time crafting a post without a strawman.

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Feel free to clarify if you feel I've mischaracterized your position. Are you not advocating for American boots on the ground in Ukraine?

sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.

Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."

13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.

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Spot on.

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Mothra said:

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whiterock said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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NATO starts deploying troops as Russia races to win
By Stephen Bryen
April 26, 2024

NATO is starting to deploy combat troops to Ukraine. Soldiers from Poland, France, the UK, Finland and other NATO members are arriving in larger numbers.

Although Russia says there are over 3,100 mercenaries in Ukraine, these newly arriving troops are not mercenaries. They are in uniform, home country proclaimed via insignia. They mostly are concentrated in the western part of the country, although in some cases they are close to the actual fighting in the east.

NATO's plan to try and ward off disaster seems to be to fill in gaps in Ukraine's forces by importing "advisers," waiting for the US to commit its army to the battle after the election in November. The Russians know this and are in a race to try and collapse Ukraine's army before Biden returns to office, if in fact he does. If the Russians are successful, a bigger war in Europe will be avoided. If not, with the introduction of US forces, Europe will be plunged into World War III.

https://asiatimes.com/2024/04/nato-starts-deploying-troops-as-russia-races-to-win/

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other reporting indicates Nato troops are filling in logistics and support positions to speed up operations and free up Ukrainian troops for frontline duty.

as alluded to in your link, Nato cannot allow Ukraine to collapse, and will not.

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Ukraine falling is not worth WWIII. No thanks.

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Uh, WWIII has already started, buddy.

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Come again? You serious, Clark?

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Are you saying WWWIII doesn't start until we are involved directly?

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As much as you may want another WW and would love an excuse for committing our boys to a conflict with a nuclear armed power, we most definitively aren't in one. Hell, we had worse in the 70's, between Vietnam, Iran, Russia and Afghanistan (among others). This is no different from the past.

You'll know we are in another WW when the ballistic missiles start flying.

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Missiles are flying. Does it have to be nuclear to be a WW?

This next election will be very important for 2 reasons, border and the world situation. After all the debate and as much as I dislike him, I am voting Trump because he is enough of a wild card that neither Putin, Xi or Iran called him... Biden we are seeing is not that type of leader, I agree with some of his domestic stuff on education, but no matter how strong he tries to be, it is not recieved that way in Moscow, Beijing, Tehran, and Damascus.

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Intercontinental ballistic missiles.

Does it have to be? No. But it will be. There will be no debating it, as here.

I take it you're cool putting our boys' lives on the line in Ukraine?

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Damn, we committed troops?? You go to a meeting, come out and we have committed troops to Ukraine. Go figure.

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The politicians are testing the waters with the public. Russia gave a stern warning yesterday, with an implicit nuclear threat. The West seems to have backed down for now. Of course American media have completely failed to report any of this.

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Of course American media have completely failed to report any of this."

Yeah, the media have been such war mongers in the past and regularly give the White House passes on committing to war.

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They are not informing the public, to say the least.

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So, we have committed troops to Ukraine? I am not talking inspectors, advisors or any other handful here are there types. Troops are combat forces and the support that goes with them. Troops are Battalion, Brigade, Regiment, Division level? Don't play word games, you guys know what troops means.

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Sure I do. Do you know what testing the waters means? They are thinking about it and trying to gauge the reaction.

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In other words, no. There are not US troops in Ukraine, nor committed.

Think about it, we are 8 months from an election. Biden is going to order troops into Ukraine? No way.

If other NATO troops go, that is on them. This is not a Chapter 5 issue.

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No one said otherwise. So back to the original question: would you support committing American troops?

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No. I am good letting Ukraine fight with our weapons.

I don't want to commit troops because of the Russia/China alliance. If US troops get involved anywhere it should be western hemisphere (canal zone), Straits of Homuz, and/or Taiwan. Those are in our interest to troop commitment level. Ukraine and Israel weapons support.

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It's really strange that multiple posters have argued that because we support funding a democratic, strongly Christian ally in its defense against an enemy invader, then we should leave our families, travel across the world, and join the front lines.

I always ask in response . . . for what cause are you risking your life and fortune? Then crickets.

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1. It not a democracy...its got the same corruption and oligarchy problems as Russia and right now its not even holding elections.

It also banned the largest opposition party.

2. The Christian part is not really relevant...most countries in the region are Christian (at least on paper and by history)

Ukraine also has the same problem that most countries do in the region...its very culturally Christian but most people don't go to Church.

Plus this is not a Christian country being attack by Arab Muslim invaders.

Its a geo-strategic conflict (with DC deep in the mix) between two Slavic nations with a history of Orthodox Christianity with low levels of Church attendance

https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1129&page=1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe


ps

You can be sure DC is not waging this war to help out Christians....they never carried about Christians in the Middle East.

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I speak for myself, not DC, and Ukraine is in fact strongly Christian even based on church attendance.

And the comparison is Russia.



Democracies can still be corrupt - virtually all are.

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1. The religious angle is just strange.

It has no bearing on the conflict.

Greece, Romania, Russia, Belarus, Serbia are all majority Orthodox Christian nations as well (at least on paper)

This is not like in East Timor where the Muslim Indonesians were persecuting the East Timorese for being Christians.

2. And of course Russia claims to be a democracy as well…it certainly has multiparty elections.

But no one buys that because of the corruption. Well untrained under Zelensky's rule is little different in form.

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It s simple. I'm a Christian first and foremost. We have a country hostile to Christianity that aligns with the most anti-Christian regimes in the worlld and is run by a tyrant invading one of the most Christian countries and cultures in the world that wants to align with the free world..

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Russia is not an anti-Christian state.

Your tract reads like a conspiracy theory .

This is a war over land and geo-strategic concerns.

Not religion

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You keep creating straw men. I'm never said it was the reason or even a reason for the invasion. It's a significant factor to me and my views on it. And, yes, it is an anti-Christian state. It's why most Christians other than Russian Orthodox cannot freely worship. .

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I think you grasping at things to use against the Russian state (and there are plenty of other legitimate issues)

"Anti-Christian" is not a good one

Most Christian nations in history have restricted the worship of other Christian sects they did not like.

Catholic France , Lutheran Sweden, Anglican England, etc

Our own Puritan Massachusetts was constantly kicking people out or executing them for preaching non-approved forms of Christianity.

Plus the modern Russian State is officially secular even if it has a close association with the Orthodox Church.

(If you really cared about Christians being persecuted you would start with some of the countries supported by DC)

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No idea why my post had a weird face emoji. I don't use them.

Grasping? I'm just explaining part of my reasoning. You obviously disagree.

I don't care if it's Muslims. Atheists, or other. Russia invaded a strongly Christian country and is murdering innocent civilian Christians almost daily.

What do ancient practices in other countries have to do with Russia now? Nothing.

With respect, we support missionaries in China, Africa, and the Mid East. I wish I could do more, but trust me, I care.

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

You are painting an overly rosey picture of Christianity inside of Ukriane

[Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers.]

It's a cultural thing in Ukraine just like Greece or Romania

Everyone will basically mark Christian down on paper as their religion…regardless of if they really practice it

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/ukraine/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20annual%20November,the%20same%20as%20in%202021.

But again. Not sure why this matters it's not a religious war over who is more Christian

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Wait, you cite a link on Russia persecution of Christians to somehow support your arguments?

Not sure why it matters? Again, a tyrant hostile to Christianity and aligned with the world's worst Christian persecutors invades (and murders civilians in) a strongly Christian ally of ours that wants to align with the West and our other allies. It may not be a religious war per se, but it sure as heck affects millions of Ukrainian Christians and Christianity itself worldwide. The stronger Russia, North Korea, China, and Iran (and others) are, the worse it is for Christians.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

You are painting an overly rosey picture of Christianity inside of Ukriane

[Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers.]

It's a cultural thing in Ukraine just like Greece or Romania

Everyone will basically mark Christian down on paper as their religion…regardless of if they really practice it

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/ukraine/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20annual%20November,the%20same%20as%20in%202021.

But again. Not sure why this matters it's not a religious war over who is more Christian

---

Wait, you cite a link on Russia persecution of Christians to somehow support your arguments?

Not sure why it matters? .

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You have gone off on a tangent about how "Christian" Ukraine supposedly is…the link proves that it's not a particularly devout country at all.

Rates of religious attendance like that of Russia or Romania

And I never said that Russia does not harass and limit the freedoms of other Christian sects that are competition to the ROC

But you seem to think this is some kind of religious war and that DC even cares about Christianity at all or religious freedom…when it of course does not

Our government is literally in bed with Saudi Arabia

"Who is the most Christian in the war" is not a particularly serious form of argument

It's a land and geo-strategic conflict

Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

You are painting an overly rosey picture of Christianity inside of Ukriane

[Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers.]

It's a cultural thing in Ukraine just like Greece or Romania

Everyone will basically mark Christian down on paper as their religion…regardless of if they really practice it

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/ukraine/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20annual%20November,the%20same%20as%20in%202021.

But again. Not sure why this matters it's not a religious war over who is more Christian

---

Wait, you cite a link on Russia persecution of Christians to somehow support your arguments?

Not sure why it matters? .

---

You have gone off on a tangent about how "Christian" Ukraine supposedly is…the link proves that it's not a particularly devout country at all.

Rates of religious attendance like that of Russia or Romania

And I never said that Russia does not harass and limit the freedoms of other Christian sects that are competition to the ROC

But you seem to think this is some kind of religious war and that DC even cares about Christianity at all or religious freedom…when it of course does not

Our government is literally in bed with Saudi Arabia

"Who is the most Christian in the war" is not a particularly serious form of argument

It's a land and geo-strategic conflict

---

Whatever metric you want to use - % of Christians; church attendance; important of religion, etc. - on numbers alone, Ukraine is double or more Christian as Russia.

More importantly, Russia and Putin persecute Christians, which you finally acknowledge.

You may not think it is a serious argument, but as a Christian, in evaluating any kind of policy issue, the first thing I consider is its effect on Christians or Christianity. You obviously don't think that way, and that is fine. But to say it's not serious is bizarre.

What is not serious is your Saudi Arabia example. First of all, you'll never have to accuse me of defending Saudi Arabia. I've done business there for 20 years. My Company once asked me to take a short-term assignment there, and I declined.

But, I never said - and it would be stupid to say - that we should not have any relationships with anti-Christian countries. In the Middle East, that is not possible. The only way to avoid it is to have no relationships there at all.

The issue is that Russia' strongest allies - all over the world - are the most anti-Christian countries overall or in their regions. Asia, Africa, South America, Middle East.

And, unlike the U.S., which tries to influence its allies in this regard (I wish more aggressively sometimes), Russia does not and, in fact, does many of the same things.

sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

You are painting an overly rosey picture of Christianity inside of Ukriane

[Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers.]

It's a cultural thing in Ukraine just like Greece or Romania

Everyone will basically mark Christian down on paper as their religion…regardless of if they really practice it

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-report-on-international-religious-freedom/ukraine/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20annual%20November,the%20same%20as%20in%202021.

But again. Not sure why this matters it's not a religious war over who is more Christian

---

Wait, you cite a link on Russia persecution of Christians to somehow support your arguments?

Not sure why it matters? .

---

You have gone off on a tangent about how "Christian" Ukraine supposedly is…the link proves that it's not a particularly devout country at all.

Rates of religious attendance like that of Russia or Romania

And I never said that Russia does not harass and limit the freedoms of other Christian sects that are competition to the ROC

But you seem to think this is some kind of religious war and that DC even cares about Christianity at all or religious freedom…when it of course does not

Our government is literally in bed with Saudi Arabia

"Who is the most Christian in the war" is not a particularly serious form of argument

It's a land and geo-strategic conflict

---

Whatever metric you want to use - % of Christians; church attendance; important of religion, etc. - on numbers alone, Ukraine is double or more Christian as Russia.

More importantly, Russia and Putin persecute Christians, which you finally acknowledge.

---

The differences between the two countries in terms of religious adherence are negligible.

Most European nations have low levels of religious adherence.

Again…this is NOT a religious war so it's not really that relevant.

If Ukraine was Jewish and Russian was Buddhist nothing would change in terms of the conflict

And you are mad the Putin's government harasses evangelical Christians…understandable… so do Western European governments (our allies) if they speak out again homosexuality, abortion, or preach against Islam

You don't seem concern about that.









Finland has persecuted and prosecuted a female Christian ex-politician on trial now 3 times for speaking out for Biblical morality

sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

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Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.

Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."

13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

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They have good reason to worry about church activities with the Americans. The official Ukrainian church is a thoroughly politicized project designed to weaken Russian Orthodoxy and deepen ethnic divisions in Ukraine. There's no doubt we'd like nothing better than to do the same in Russia.

Mothra said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Are you asking me to choose between the lesser of the evils in this binary juxtaposition? Very interesting. Never would have thunk-it.

But this one is easy. I choose freedom, each and every time. I choose the pagan society where the harvesters are allowed to freely harvest, and the fields are teeming with crops, as opposed to the pagan society where the harvesters are barred from picking the crops. Your mistake here is believing that an "Orthodox Russia" is in any way truly Christian because it shares some culturally-conservative Christian values when the fact is it is every bit as godless as Europe.

Again, I suspect our difference in opinion comes down to what we believe Christianity really is. Is it merely a set of values and cultural norms and traditions, or is it a faith that can save people's souls and is required to be shared? I can understand why someone who believes it is the former would prefer an "Orthodox Russia" to one that looks like Europe or even America.

BTW, I continue to find it ironic that a guy who prefers the authoritarianism of Russia to Europe continues to cite authoritarianism as the reason he will not vote for Trump.

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So Russian Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity. That figures.

Sam Lowry said:

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sombear said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

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"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.

Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."

13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

They have good reason to worry about church activities with the Americans. The official Ukrainian church is a thoroughly politicized project designed to weaken Russian Orthodoxy and deepen ethnic divisions in Ukraine. There's no doubt we'd like nothing better than to do the same in Russia.

---

Yea Rod Dreher had an interesting article that talked about while the ROC is in bed with Putin other parts of the Orthodox world are in bed with the CIA


[A reader points out that The Atlantic's long story critical of the Russian Orthodox Church, and supportive of Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, left out the fact that Team Bart has received financial support from the US Government:

During the Second World War, the Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras pledged his loyalty to the OSS, the precursor of the CIA. Athenagoras was desperate for the Nazis to lose and good for him! But he was absolutely sold out to the United States, as this brief talk given by a historian and admirer at a Greek Orthodox college in Boston explains. Excerpt:

This strategic alliance was forged during Athenagoras's years as Archbishop of North and South America. But for Athenagoras, at least, the relationship was far more than strategic. His love for America was deep, even passionate. In 1953, the U.S. Consul in Istanbul wrote of a visit with Athenagoras, "the Patriarch spent much of his time in expressing his love and admiration for the United States and all things our country represents. He went so far as to state that the cornerstone of the policy which he had set for himself as Patriarch was to advance American ideals. His expressions of admiration for the United States were at times so unrestrained as to become almost embarrassing."

I don't cite this to criticize Athenagoras. His close alliance with the US during the Cold War made a certain kind of sense, given Moscow's complete ownership of the Russian Orthodox system. I'm only pointing out that the image given in The Atlantic story about a wicked Russian church that advances Putin's goals, versus an innocent Ecumenical Patriarchate that only wants the best for global Orthodoxy, is unfounded. The Ecumenical Patriarchate has long been a vehicle for US geopolitical interests. Even if you think the EP's support of an autocephalous (self-governing) Ukrainian Orthodox church free of Moscow is justified, you must not be so naive as to think that this move was immaculately conceived, and that the new Ukrainian church was born without geopolitical interests at stake.]

https://orthochristian.com/126469.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

Sam Lowry said:

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Mothra said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Are you asking me to choose between the lesser of the evils in this binary juxtaposition? Very interesting. Never would have thunk-it.

But this one is easy. I choose freedom, each and every time. I choose the pagan society where the harvesters are allowed to freely harvest, and the fields are teeming with crops, as opposed to the pagan society where the harvesters are barred from picking the crops. Your mistake here is believing that an "Orthodox Russia" is in any way truly Christian because it shares some culturally-conservative Christian values when the fact is it is every bit as godless as Europe.

Again, I suspect our difference in opinion comes down to what we believe Christianity really is. Is it merely a set of values and cultural norms and traditions, or is it a faith that can save people's souls and is required to be shared? I can understand why someone who believes it is the former would prefer an "Orthodox Russia" to one that looks like Europe or even America.

BTW, I continue to find it ironic that a guy who prefers the authoritarianism of Russia to Europe continues to cite authoritarianism as the reason he will not vote for Trump.

---

So Russian Orthodoxy isn't real Christianity.

---

Said no one.

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.

Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."

13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

They have good reason to worry about church activities with the Americans. The official Ukrainian church is a thoroughly politicized project designed to weaken Russian Orthodoxy and deepen ethnic divisions in Ukraine. There's no doubt we'd like nothing better than to do the same in Russia.

---

Yea Rod Dreher had an interesting article that talked about while the ROC is in bed with Putin other parts of the Orthodox world are in bed with the CIA

---

CIA...that sounds familiar. Is this the one you mean?



https://orthochristian.com/117882.html

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.

Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."

13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

They have good reason to worry about church activities with the Americans. The official Ukrainian church is a thoroughly politicized project designed to weaken Russian Orthodoxy and deepen ethnic divisions in Ukraine. There's no doubt we'd like nothing better than to do the same in Russia.

---

Yea Rod Dreher had an interesting article that talked about while the ROC is in bed with Putin other parts of the Orthodox world are in bed with the CIA

---

CIA...that sounds familiar. Is this the one you mean?



https://orthochristian.com/117882.html

---

Church leaders supporting freedom and liberty and fighting tyranny. . . I'm shocked and appalled!

Thank God that's never happened before [camera slowly pans to clergy in every freedom and liberty movement, including our own revolution].

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

We can point to - and I often do - improper restrictions on religious liberty in our own country and every one of our allies.

Yet, we're not invading a Christian country and murdering innocent Christian civilians. And Christians of all kinds are free to worship as they please. And as bad as we and our allies can sometimes be on religious liberty, we all are heaven on earth compared to Russia, Iran, China, and North Korea.

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.

Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."

13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

They have good reason to worry about church activities with the Americans. The official Ukrainian church is a thoroughly politicized project designed to weaken Russian Orthodoxy and deepen ethnic divisions in Ukraine. There's no doubt we'd like nothing better than to do the same in Russia.

---

Yea Rod Dreher had an interesting article that talked about while the ROC is in bed with Putin other parts of the Orthodox world are in bed with the CIA

---

CIA...that sounds familiar. Is this the one you mean?



https://orthochristian.com/117882.html

---

Church leaders supporting freedom and liberty and fighting tyranny. . . I'm shocked and appalled!

Thank God that's never happened before [camera slowly pans to clergy in every freedom and liberty movement, including our own revolution].

---

"CIA" and "freedom" don't even belong in the same thread.

sombear said:

---

Yet, we're not invading a Christian country and murdering innocent Christian civilians. And Christians of all kinds are free to worship as they please. And as bad as we and our allies can sometimes be on religious liberty, we all are heaven on earth compared to Russia, Iran, China, and North Korea.

---

That's exactly what Kiev is doing to the Donbas with our support.

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.

Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."

13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

They have good reason to worry about church activities with the Americans. The official Ukrainian church is a thoroughly politicized project designed to weaken Russian Orthodoxy and deepen ethnic divisions in Ukraine. There's no doubt we'd like nothing better than to do the same in Russia.

---

Yea Rod Dreher had an interesting article that talked about while the ROC is in bed with Putin other parts of the Orthodox world are in bed with the CIA

---

CIA...that sounds familiar. Is this the one you mean?



https://orthochristian.com/117882.html

---

Church leaders supporting freedom and liberty and fighting tyranny. . . I'm shocked and appalled!

Thank God that's never happened before [camera slowly pans to clergy in every freedom and liberty movement, including our own revolution].

---

"CIA" and "freedom" don't even belong in the same thread.

---

USA and freedom do, and the former Soviet nations likely would still be under communist rule without us. That is why most of Eastern Europe is so appreciative of the U.S. But, yes, the CIA played a significant role.

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Yet, we're not invading a Christian country and murdering innocent Christian civilians. And Christians of all kinds are free to worship as they please. And as bad as we and our allies can sometimes be on religious liberty, we all are heaven on earth compared to Russia, Iran, China, and North Korea.

---

That's exactly what Kiev is doing to the Donbas with our support.

---

ROFL. Not even remotely close, shill.

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

sombear said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Mothra said:

---

"Exactly. The idea that Russia is "anti-Christian" because they don't support someone's preferred sect is just ahistorical nonsense."

LOL. Russian shill gonna Russian shill.

---

Tell us which is better in your opinion. An Orthodox Russia with excessive restrictions on the time, place, and manner of evangelizing? Or a pseudo-pagan Russia formed in the image of Western NGOs? Try not to weasel. This is your chance to be "pragmatic."

---

Russia is Orthodox in name only. I have great respect for the church. My Serbian grandparents and their ancestors were all Orthodox. Russian Orthodox is not your father's Orthodox.

Leadership is corrupt and have become Putin shills. They help Putin crackdown on other churches/faiths. Non-Orthodox Christians cannot freely worship. I know this first-hand. My former Russian colleagues held secret Bible studies. We exchanged emails with Scripture and prayers, and they had to use temporary email addresses and did not use their own devices. Their supervisors interrogated them about their "Christian activities with the Americans."

13% of Russians attend church once a month or more and say their faith is important to them. 7% attend church "mostly weekly." Only 1/4 of Russian Orthodox say they are certain there is a God.

Christianity is flourishing and growing in Ukraine. 86% Christian. There are more Evangelicals in government than any other Euro. Ukrainian Orthodox work closely with other Christians on a variety of issues and projects. 44% of Christians attend church and say their faith is very important to them.

---

They have good reason to worry about church activities with the Americans. The official Ukrainian church is a thoroughly politicized project designed to weaken Russian Orthodoxy and deepen ethnic divisions in Ukraine. There's no doubt we'd like nothing better than to do the same in Russia.

---

Yea Rod Dreher had an interesting article that talked about while the ROC is in bed with Putin other parts of the Orthodox world are in bed with the CIA

---

CIA...that sounds familiar. Is this the one you mean?



https://orthochristian.com/117882.html

---

Church leaders supporting freedom and liberty and fighting tyranny. . . I'm shocked and appalled!

Thank God that's never happened before [camera slowly pans to clergy in every freedom and liberty movement, including our own revolution].

---

"CIA" and "freedom" don't even belong in the same thread.

---

USA and freedom do, and the former Soviet nations likely would still be under communist rule without us. That is why most of Eastern Europe is so appreciative of the U.S. But, yes, the CIA played a significant role.

---

Yep, the old USA was doing God's work in helping to crush communism.

(Of course it's still around in China, Cuba, Vietnam, etc)

But the Cold War in Europe is over

We won

Russia is not a communist-atheist state…as you said it's a more conservative even religious-nationalist nation and oligarchy.

It's not a threat to Western civilization…that is for sure

sombear said:

---

Again, the issue is Ukraine v. Russia. and there simply is no comparison when it comes to Christianity. It is night and day.

.

---

Its such a myopic argument

It's NOT a religious war so it does not fundamentally matter to the conflict at hand.

The conflict is over issues of land, spheres of influence, geo-political concerns…even ethnic issues….not religion

(PS as I have show you…with actual polls…their rates of religious attendance are very similar to other orthodox countries

"Only 12 percent of Orthodox Ukrainians report attending church weekly, and this mirrors trends in other parts of Eastern Europe, where religious behavior such as daily prayer and worship attendance is reportedly low compared to the number of followers"

"In Russia just 6 percent of the population…. go to church several times a month")

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/02/10/russians-return-to-religion-but-not-to-church/

https://www.usip.org/sites/default/files/2023-10/pw_193-mapping_religious_landscape_ukraine.pdf