historian said:

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.. especially the regional rivalries that are important to fans. For example, the end of Bedlam is a disaster.

---

i agree. imo, local /regional rivalries are the most important part of college athletics and what makes it different than pro sports

when networks chip away at that, the sport loses appeal

So colleges are going to take a page from pro teams and hijack money by threatening to relocate??

Isn't that what OU is going to the City of Norman? They aren't necessarily threatening to move the entire campus but they are threatening that with the arena.

Edmond Bear said:

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historian said:

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Redbrickbear said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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A few notes:

• The proposed arena is 8,000 seats, not much bigger than Foster. With 23k undergraduates in Norman, OU's undergrad population is 64% larger than Baylor.
• OU + Private Sources is proposing to fund 40% of arena costs and make Norman fund the remainder. If you do the math based on Foster size, Foster cost, subtract Waco cost, you get about $188m in arena costs which means OU + Private sources are offering $75m.

In short, this seems like a total scam.

Norman turned down another arena proposal from OU in 2017. Will be interesting to see if Norman feels hostage to this proposal.

---

Not to mention that downtown Oklahoma City is 25 mins driving time from campus.

Imagine if Baylor's campus was 25 mins driving time from downtown Dallas

---

Not exactly a good comparison: OKC is nothing like Dallas if the Metroplex in terms of population, economy, entertainment options, restaurants, everything.

---

Coming from someone who has lived in both places, Exception for population and economy, OKC blows Dallas away.

The biggest difference? Because there is a smaller population, it's all actually accessible in OKC.

---

I'm in OKC right now for business......this place sucks.
If you are into small cities without much culture or amenities than OKC is a great place.......but OKC is boring.
Out of the two cities in Oklahoma, Tulsa is the much better choice.

One of the things I miss about baylorfans.com are people hyping up the most podunk places as the "greatest places to live"

Edmond Bear said:

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BluesBear said:

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Stop giving them money. Period. Unless you are providing royalty checks each year back to the citizens, enough of this tax payer imposed fees for Billionaires who don't want to use their own money. Another scam...

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That is freaking crazy talk. Taxpayer funded assets have transformed OKC into something really great. What do I care if a billionaire makes more money? I get the benefit of having a much better place to live.

---

Honestly....just so I know for future trips.......What makes OKC "something really great"?????

I'd like to do something this evening besides go to a bar, or a BBQ restaurant.

historian said:

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I will take your word for it. I've never been to OK.

---

You are not missing anything. The zoo is average. There are a couple of Cowboy museums. The area of OKC I like the most is the brick town area downtown around their minor league baseball park.

Tulsa is the superior city to OKC. Tulsa has nicer stuff than OKC even though the two cities are about the same.
Tulsa is one of those weird cities in that the nicer part of town is in South Tulsa, while North Tulsa is full of meth addicts.

South Tulsa has some beautiful neighborhoods that will remind you of Grapevine, East Plano or Colleyville. Nice homes with big country lots.

Edmond Bear said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Didn't Oklahoma just build an arena for the Thunder and it is building a new one?

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Yes - $900million. Should be nice.

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$900 million is a lot of money for a giant show polish can.

montypython said:

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CorsicanaBear said:

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The logic of these things is so wrong. These are not investments in the community, they are income transfers from people with less money to people with much more money.

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That's pretty much all it is.

These deals aren't given a ton of public scrutiny because sports are a very unique business.It's not like 100k people are buying amazon shirts and cheering for amazon in distribution centers. Then when amazon says they need a new distribution center to be competitive, fans and local government pony up.

That and civic leaders tend to push for these ridiculous taxes and so forth because they don't want their legacy to be the person who let xyz team leave the city.

---

Like it or not, major professional sports teams are a big part of the fabric of any city that has one. These owners know that and unfortunately take advantage of it.

But from a city development and tourism perspective, it is disastrous any time these cities lose a team.

Method Man said:

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historian said:

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I will take your word for it. I've never been to OK.

---

You are not missing anything. The zoo is average. There are a couple of Cowboy museums. The area of OKC I like the most is the brick town area downtown around their minor league baseball park.

Tulsa is the superior city to OKC. Tulsa has nicer stuff than OKC even though the two cities are about the same.
Tulsa is one of those weird cities in that the nicer part of town is in South Tulsa, while North Tulsa is full of meth addicts.

South Tulsa has some beautiful neighborhoods that will remind you of Grapevine, East Plano or Colleyville. Nice homes with big country lots.

---

So, business guys go to the local zoo on business trips? New one to me. The areas you are listing sound like you are reading them from an encyclopedia. Locals are not going to Bricktown. That's like saying 'The West End' is Dallas.

And, 10 years ago I would have agreed with you about Tulsa. But, OKC has easily surpassed Tulsa and Dallas.

But, thanks for the softball question:

- OKC has more live music and live concert venues, large and small. The Jones Assembly is easily the coolest venue anywhere.

- OKC has more Michelin starred chefs than Texas, the last two James Beard (national chef of the year) award winners, an Iron chef, a Bon Appetit and USA Today top 10 national restaurant (Ma Der Lao) and four top 50 restaurants (Cafe Kacao, Grey Sweater, Ma Der Lao, Nonesuch - also named the best new restaurant in America a few years ago by Bon Appetit.)

- Go to Riversport which includes a 1/2 mile man-made river rapids course and the US Olympic Training Center for river sports. OKC will be hosting the river-based Olympic events for the 2028 Olympics.

- Watch a movie being filmed; OKC is top 10 for permanent film studios. Most of of the B-movie Christian titles are made at Prairie Surf Studios. Weirdly, 'Tulsa King' is filmed in OKC. I've seen a dozen different stars around town, filming on the street or dining.

- Tulsa wins on museums. Although, OKC has the First Americans museum which is really cool and they are building a $1B Vegas style resort around it with 2 hotels, a giant indoor water park, and lagoon with beach area.

- If you like beer, The Prairie Bomb is a Top 10 US beer, brewed at Prairie Artisan Ales. The Big Friendly Brewery has won Brewery of the Year at the Great American Beer festival for the last 2 years (that's the Super Bowl of Beer festivals).

Locals don't go to Bricktown. Locals go to Midtown, The Plaza, and The Paseo. All are walkable for restaurant and bar crawls.

And, things keep getting better, in a few years you can:

- Gawk at the tallest building the world which is currently being built in your favorite part of town.

- Enjoy the new $1B NBA/concert arena.

- Enjoy our new 10k seat outdoor pro soccer and events center.

- Enjoy 2028 Olympic river events

This list can go on and on.

Edmond Bear said:

---

Method Man said:

---

historian said:

---

I will take your word for it. I've never been to OK.

---

You are not missing anything. The zoo is average. There are a couple of Cowboy museums. The area of OKC I like the most is the brick town area downtown around their minor league baseball park.

Tulsa is the superior city to OKC. Tulsa has nicer stuff than OKC even though the two cities are about the same.
Tulsa is one of those weird cities in that the nicer part of town is in South Tulsa, while North Tulsa is full of meth addicts.

South Tulsa has some beautiful neighborhoods that will remind you of Grapevine, East Plano or Colleyville. Nice homes with big country lots.

---

So, business guys go to the local zoo on business trips? New one to me. The areas you are listing sound like you are reading them from an encyclopedia. Locals are not going to Bricktown. That's like saying 'The West End' is Dallas.

And, 10 years ago I would have agreed with you about Tulsa. But, OKC has easily surpassed Tulsa and Dallas.

But, thanks for the softball question:

- OKC has more live music and live concert venues, large and small. The Jones Assembly is easily the coolest venue anywhere.

- OKC has more Michelin starred chefs than Texas, the last two James Beard (national chef of the year) award winners, an Iron chef, a Bon Appetit and USA Today top 10 national restaurant (Ma Der Lao) and four top 50 restaurants (Cafe Kacao, Grey Sweater, Ma Der Lao, Nonesuch - also named the best new restaurant in America a few years ago by Bon Appetit.)

- Go to Riversport which includes a 1/2 mile man-made river rapids course and the US Olympic Training Center for river sports. OKC will be hosting the river-based Olympic events for the 2028 Olympics.

- Watch a movie being filmed; OKC is top 10 for permanent film studios. Most of of the B-movie Christian titles are made at Prairie Surf Studios. Weirdly, 'Tulsa King' is filmed in OKC. I've seen a dozen different stars around town, filming on the street or dining.

- Tulsa wins on museums. Although, OKC has the First Americans museum which is really cool and they are building a $1B Vegas style resort around it with 2 hotels, a giant indoor water park, and lagoon with beach area.

- If you like beer, The Prairie Bomb is a Top 10 US beer, brewed at Prairie Artisan Ales. The Big Friendly Brewery has won Brewery of the Year at the Great American Beer festival for the last 2 years (that's the Super Bowl of Beer festivals).

Locals don't go to Bricktown. Locals go to Midtown, The Plaza, and The Paseo. All are walkable for restaurant and bar crawls.

And, things keep getting better, in a few years you can:

- Gawk at the tallest building the world which is currently being built in your favorite part of town.

- Enjoy the new $1B NBA/concert arena.

- Enjoy our new 10k seat outdoor pro soccer and events center.

- Enjoy 2028 Olympic river events

This list can go on and on.

---

You'd be amazed at what you can do when all of your afternoon appointments cancel. I'm not from Oklahoma....I'm a visitor....so speaking down to me as if I should know where all of these local spots are is kinda silly.
Thank you for some of the recommendations. It sounds like you are a very proud booster of Oklahoma City.

OKC is ok. The people are friendly. The women are country girl thick in the right places....but this city is just the definition of average.

In terms of cities in the Southwest I would rank OKC squarely behind Tulsa, and Ft Worth when it came to peer cities. All three of those cities are pretty similar in that they are big on the Cowboy culture.
Tulsa strikes me as having way more $$$ than OKC.

I would also add that in the context of peer city.
OKC is not a peer of any of the major Texas cities.
This place is nothing compared to Dallas, Houston or Austin. The only way you could compare OKC to Dallas is if you like small, boring cities with not a lot to do.

Don't even try to compare a city with 1.4 million people to cities like Houston or Dallas that have metro populations around 7 million people that dwarf the entire state of Oklahoma.

Method Man said:

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Edmond Bear said:

---

Method Man said:

---

historian said:

---

I will take your word for it. I've never been to OK.

---

You are not missing anything. The zoo is average. There are a couple of Cowboy museums. The area of OKC I like the most is the brick town area downtown around their minor league baseball park.

Tulsa is the superior city to OKC. Tulsa has nicer stuff than OKC even though the two cities are about the same.
Tulsa is one of those weird cities in that the nicer part of town is in South Tulsa, while North Tulsa is full of meth addicts.

South Tulsa has some beautiful neighborhoods that will remind you of Grapevine, East Plano or Colleyville. Nice homes with big country lots.

---

So, business guys go to the local zoo on business trips? New one to me. The areas you are listing sound like you are reading them from an encyclopedia. Locals are not going to Bricktown. That's like saying 'The West End' is Dallas.

And, 10 years ago I would have agreed with you about Tulsa. But, OKC has easily surpassed Tulsa and Dallas.

But, thanks for the softball question:

- OKC has more live music and live concert venues, large and small. The Jones Assembly is easily the coolest venue anywhere.

- OKC has more Michelin starred chefs than Texas, the last two James Beard (national chef of the year) award winners, an Iron chef, a Bon Appetit and USA Today top 10 national restaurant (Ma Der Lao) and four top 50 restaurants (Cafe Kacao, Grey Sweater, Ma Der Lao, Nonesuch - also named the best new restaurant in America a few years ago by Bon Appetit.)

- Go to Riversport which includes a 1/2 mile man-made river rapids course and the US Olympic Training Center for river sports. OKC will be hosting the river-based Olympic events for the 2028 Olympics.

- Watch a movie being filmed; OKC is top 10 for permanent film studios. Most of of the B-movie Christian titles are made at Prairie Surf Studios. Weirdly, 'Tulsa King' is filmed in OKC. I've seen a dozen different stars around town, filming on the street or dining.

- Tulsa wins on museums. Although, OKC has the First Americans museum which is really cool and they are building a $1B Vegas style resort around it with 2 hotels, a giant indoor water park, and lagoon with beach area.

- If you like beer, The Prairie Bomb is a Top 10 US beer, brewed at Prairie Artisan Ales. The Big Friendly Brewery has won Brewery of the Year at the Great American Beer festival for the last 2 years (that's the Super Bowl of Beer festivals).

Locals don't go to Bricktown. Locals go to Midtown, The Plaza, and The Paseo. All are walkable for restaurant and bar crawls.

And, things keep getting better, in a few years you can:

- Gawk at the tallest building the world which is currently being built in your favorite part of town.

- Enjoy the new $1B NBA/concert arena.

- Enjoy our new 10k seat outdoor pro soccer and events center.

- Enjoy 2028 Olympic river events

This list can go on and on.

---

You'd be amazed at what you can do when all of your afternoon appointments cancel. I'm not from Oklahoma....I'm a visitor....so speaking down to me as if I should know where all of these local spots are is kinda silly.
Thank you for some of the recommendations. It sounds like you are a very proud booster of Oklahoma City.

OKC is ok. The people are friendly. The women are country girl thick in the right places....but this city is just the definition of average.

In terms of cities in the Southwest I would rank OKC squarely behind Tulsa, and Ft Worth when it came to peer cities. All three of those cities are pretty similar in that they are big on the Cowboy culture.

This place is nothing compared to Dallas, Houston or Austin. The only way you could compare OKC to Dallas is you like small, boring cities with not a lot to do.

---

If you are going to say OKC sucks and is average. You are going to get a list of reasons why it is way better than average.

Saying that OKC is big on cowboy culture was true 30 years ago. But, bringing up cowboy culture and OKC today, shows you don't really know what you are talking about.

And, as someone who has lived in Dallas, goes to Tulsa for events frequently, and travels nationally for work and has seen every large and mid-size city in the US multiple times, OKC is top 10% easily.

It's not Austin. Austin has great live music and great restaurants. It's not New York or LA or Atlanta. But, it is a top 3 mid-size city.

You know what OKC has the large cities don't? Access.

In Dallas, people talk about going to Cowboys games. But, only a small handful actually do it. Too many people competing for the same event. People talk about some awesome restaurant but very few actually do it because it is an hour+ in traffic. My LA co-workers talk about going to the beach but almost no one does because they live 2 hours away in traffic.

In OKC, I can actually get NBA tickets. I actually go to the nationally rated restaurants. I actually do all of the cool things.

Edmond Bear said:

---

In OKC, I can actually get NBA tickets. I actually go to the nationally rated restaurants. I actually do all of the cool things.

---

Never lived in the state of Oklahoma, nor has it ever come across my mind but OKC sounds a lot like Charlotte or Jacksonville

Along the lines of the taxpayers giving money to sports teams/owners for new stadiums....


One of the arguments I have always heard is that it is done to boost the economy, build up an area, etc.

But has anyone ever done a study to show what sort of impact a sports team has on the immediate local economy?

In some areas I would think the impact is pretty noticeable.

For example, Arlington.

Maybe someone can speak to this but I was told that the area with the stadiums was not very developed in the 90s. Then the new ballpark was built, then the cowboys and now the new Rangers stadium. Around it you have multiple new hotels, restaurants and a new National museum being built. It is hard to prove that none of that would not have come there if not for the stadiums but it seems reasonable they only did.

There are always events going on at the stadiums- high school sports, little league, cheerleading, church, business meetings, minor league/ secondary sports teams, etc.

So in this case it seems like the money on new stadiums led to more development but I know that is not the case in all cities. Seems like a good idea for a study in economics.

cowboycwr said:

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Along the lines of the taxpayers giving money to sports teams/owners for new stadiums....


One of the arguments I have always heard is that it is done to boost the economy, build up an area, etc.

But has anyone ever done a study to show what sort of impact a sports team has on the immediate local economy?

In some areas I would think the impact is pretty noticeable.

For example, Arlington.

Maybe someone can speak to this but I was told that the area with the stadiums was not very developed in the 90s. Then the new ballpark was built, then the cowboys and now the new Rangers stadium. Around it you have multiple new hotels, restaurants and a new National museum being built. It is hard to prove that none of that would not have come there if not for the stadiums but it seems reasonable they only did.

There are always events going on at the stadiums- high school sports, little league, cheerleading, church, business meetings, minor league/ secondary sports teams, etc.

So in this case it seems like the money on new stadiums led to more development but I know that is not the case in all cities. Seems like a good idea for a study in economics.

---

The problem with using Arlington as an example is that you have to wonder what building all of those stadiums has really done for the city of Arlington?

Arlington is by far the largest suburb in the metroplex...yet its business community is nowhere close to smaller suburbs like Irving, Plano, Richardson, or Frisco....the initial 3 cities all invested heavily in DART and public transportation.

For the last 15 years most of the visitors to those major events in Arlington have stayed in Dallas or FT Worth for their lodging and entertainment.
The new Loews Hotel will help keep some visitors and their $$$ local to Arlington, but most people that come in town for an event at Jerry World will spend the bulk of their money in Dallas.

I'm just playing the devils advocate...... because I'm one that thinks that using taxpayer $$$ for local stadiums does have some benefit to the local community.

Edmond Bear said:

---

Method Man said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

Method Man said:

---

historian said:

---

I will take your word for it. I've never been to OK.

---

You are not missing anything. The zoo is average. There are a couple of Cowboy museums. The area of OKC I like the most is the brick town area downtown around their minor league baseball park.

Tulsa is the superior city to OKC. Tulsa has nicer stuff than OKC even though the two cities are about the same.
Tulsa is one of those weird cities in that the nicer part of town is in South Tulsa, while North Tulsa is full of meth addicts.

South Tulsa has some beautiful neighborhoods that will remind you of Grapevine, East Plano or Colleyville. Nice homes with big country lots.

---

So, business guys go to the local zoo on business trips? New one to me. The areas you are listing sound like you are reading them from an encyclopedia. Locals are not going to Bricktown. That's like saying 'The West End' is Dallas.

And, 10 years ago I would have agreed with you about Tulsa. But, OKC has easily surpassed Tulsa and Dallas.

But, thanks for the softball question:

- OKC has more live music and live concert venues, large and small. The Jones Assembly is easily the coolest venue anywhere.

- OKC has more Michelin starred chefs than Texas, the last two James Beard (national chef of the year) award winners, an Iron chef, a Bon Appetit and USA Today top 10 national restaurant (Ma Der Lao) and four top 50 restaurants (Cafe Kacao, Grey Sweater, Ma Der Lao, Nonesuch - also named the best new restaurant in America a few years ago by Bon Appetit.)

- Go to Riversport which includes a 1/2 mile man-made river rapids course and the US Olympic Training Center for river sports. OKC will be hosting the river-based Olympic events for the 2028 Olympics.

- Watch a movie being filmed; OKC is top 10 for permanent film studios. Most of of the B-movie Christian titles are made at Prairie Surf Studios. Weirdly, 'Tulsa King' is filmed in OKC. I've seen a dozen different stars around town, filming on the street or dining.

- Tulsa wins on museums. Although, OKC has the First Americans museum which is really cool and they are building a $1B Vegas style resort around it with 2 hotels, a giant indoor water park, and lagoon with beach area.

- If you like beer, The Prairie Bomb is a Top 10 US beer, brewed at Prairie Artisan Ales. The Big Friendly Brewery has won Brewery of the Year at the Great American Beer festival for the last 2 years (that's the Super Bowl of Beer festivals).

Locals don't go to Bricktown. Locals go to Midtown, The Plaza, and The Paseo. All are walkable for restaurant and bar crawls.

And, things keep getting better, in a few years you can:

- Gawk at the tallest building the world which is currently being built in your favorite part of town.

- Enjoy the new $1B NBA/concert arena.

- Enjoy our new 10k seat outdoor pro soccer and events center.

- Enjoy 2028 Olympic river events

This list can go on and on.

---

You'd be amazed at what you can do when all of your afternoon appointments cancel. I'm not from Oklahoma....I'm a visitor....so speaking down to me as if I should know where all of these local spots are is kinda silly.
Thank you for some of the recommendations. It sounds like you are a very proud booster of Oklahoma City.

OKC is ok. The people are friendly. The women are country girl thick in the right places....but this city is just the definition of average.

In terms of cities in the Southwest I would rank OKC squarely behind Tulsa, and Ft Worth when it came to peer cities. All three of those cities are pretty similar in that they are big on the Cowboy culture.

This place is nothing compared to Dallas, Houston or Austin. The only way you could compare OKC to Dallas is you like small, boring cities with not a lot to do.

---

If you are going to say OKC sucks and is average. You are going to get a list of reasons why it is way better than average.

Saying that OKC is big on cowboy culture was true 30 years ago. But, bringing up cowboy culture and OKC today, shows you don't really know what you are talking about.

And, as someone who has lived in Dallas, goes to Tulsa for events frequently, and travels nationally for work and has seen every large and mid-size city in the US multiple times, OKC is top 10% easily.

It's not Austin. Austin has great live music and great restaurants. It's not New York or LA or Atlanta. But, it is a top 3 mid-size city.

You know what OKC has the large cities don't? Access.

In Dallas, people talk about going to Cowboys games. But, only a small handful actually do it. Too many people competing for the same event. People talk about some awesome restaurant but very few actually do it because it is an hour+ in traffic. My LA co-workers talk about going to the beach but almost no one does because they live 2 hours away in traffic.

In OKC, I can actually get NBA tickets. I actually go to the nationally rated restaurants. I actually do all of the cool things.

---

I don't know how many times I have to keep telling you this.....but I'm not from here. I'm not from Oklahoma or OKC.
I'm typing this in downtown OKC as we speak. There is cowboy and country/western stuff everywhere around here.

The fact that you know more about OKC doesn't mean chit to me. I've been coming here for over 10 years....so my opinion on your city is not something I came to yesterday.

OKC is boring. Its an average place. From your last 3 paragraphs it sounds like large cities intimidate you....and thats okay.

If you are wanting a smaller city with a very conservative culture to raise your kids then I would recommend Tulsa over OKC any day of the week. Tulsa is a much nicer looking city.

Please don't come with this garbage opinion that OKC compares to anything like Houston or Dallas.
Comparing cities with metro populations of 7 million to cities with 1.5 million is silly.

Edmond Bear said:

---

Method Man said:

---

Edmond Bear said:

---

Method Man said:

---

historian said:

---

I will take your word for it. I've never been to OK.

---

You are not missing anything. The zoo is average. There are a couple of Cowboy museums. The area of OKC I like the most is the brick town area downtown around their minor league baseball park.

Tulsa is the superior city to OKC. Tulsa has nicer stuff than OKC even though the two cities are about the same.
Tulsa is one of those weird cities in that the nicer part of town is in South Tulsa, while North Tulsa is full of meth addicts.

South Tulsa has some beautiful neighborhoods that will remind you of Grapevine, East Plano or Colleyville. Nice homes with big country lots.

---

So, business guys go to the local zoo on business trips? New one to me. The areas you are listing sound like you are reading them from an encyclopedia. Locals are not going to Bricktown. That's like saying 'The West End' is Dallas.

And, 10 years ago I would have agreed with you about Tulsa. But, OKC has easily surpassed Tulsa and Dallas.

But, thanks for the softball question:

- OKC has more live music and live concert venues, large and small. The Jones Assembly is easily the coolest venue anywhere.

- OKC has more Michelin starred chefs than Texas, the last two James Beard (national chef of the year) award winners, an Iron chef, a Bon Appetit and USA Today top 10 national restaurant (Ma Der Lao) and four top 50 restaurants (Cafe Kacao, Grey Sweater, Ma Der Lao, Nonesuch - also named the best new restaurant in America a few years ago by Bon Appetit.)

- Go to Riversport which includes a 1/2 mile man-made river rapids course and the US Olympic Training Center for river sports. OKC will be hosting the river-based Olympic events for the 2028 Olympics.

- Watch a movie being filmed; OKC is top 10 for permanent film studios. Most of of the B-movie Christian titles are made at Prairie Surf Studios. Weirdly, 'Tulsa King' is filmed in OKC. I've seen a dozen different stars around town, filming on the street or dining.

- Tulsa wins on museums. Although, OKC has the First Americans museum which is really cool and they are building a $1B Vegas style resort around it with 2 hotels, a giant indoor water park, and lagoon with beach area.

- If you like beer, The Prairie Bomb is a Top 10 US beer, brewed at Prairie Artisan Ales. The Big Friendly Brewery has won Brewery of the Year at the Great American Beer festival for the last 2 years (that's the Super Bowl of Beer festivals).

Locals don't go to Bricktown. Locals go to Midtown, The Plaza, and The Paseo. All are walkable for restaurant and bar crawls.

And, things keep getting better, in a few years you can:

- Gawk at the tallest building the world which is currently being built in your favorite part of town.

- Enjoy the new $1B NBA/concert arena.

- Enjoy our new 10k seat outdoor pro soccer and events center.

- Enjoy 2028 Olympic river events

This list can go on and on.

---

You'd be amazed at what you can do when all of your afternoon appointments cancel. I'm not from Oklahoma....I'm a visitor....so speaking down to me as if I should know where all of these local spots are is kinda silly.
Thank you for some of the recommendations. It sounds like you are a very proud booster of Oklahoma City.

OKC is ok. The people are friendly. The women are country girl thick in the right places....but this city is just the definition of average.

In terms of cities in the Southwest I would rank OKC squarely behind Tulsa, and Ft Worth when it came to peer cities. All three of those cities are pretty similar in that they are big on the Cowboy culture.

This place is nothing compared to Dallas, Houston or Austin. The only way you could compare OKC to Dallas is you like small, boring cities with not a lot to do.

---

If you are going to say OKC sucks and is average. You are going to get a list of reasons why it is way better than average.

Saying that OKC is big on cowboy culture was true 30 years ago. But, bringing up cowboy culture and OKC today, shows you don't really know what you are talking about.

And, as someone who has lived in Dallas, goes to Tulsa for events frequently, and travels nationally for work and has seen every large and mid-size city in the US multiple times, OKC is top 10% easily.

It's not Austin. Austin has great live music and great restaurants. It's not New York or LA or Atlanta. But, it is a top 3 mid-size city.

You know what OKC has the large cities don't? Access.

In Dallas, people talk about going to Cowboys games. But, only a small handful actually do it. Too many people competing for the same event. People talk about some awesome restaurant but very few actually do it because it is an hour+ in traffic. My LA co-workers talk about going to the beach but almost no one does because they live 2 hours away in traffic.

In OKC, I can actually get NBA tickets. I actually go to the nationally rated restaurants. I actually do all of the cool things.

---

Top 3 Mid size city.....according to who?
You....the OKC booster?


If you are saying top 3 city in Oklahoma then I would agree with you. I would rank OKC behind Tulsa and Ft Worth when it comes to medium sized cities in the Southwest.

What are you defining as mid size city? Less than 3 million people in the metro population?
That my definition of a medium sized city.

All of these medium sized cities are superior to Oklahoma City:
-New Orleans
-San Antonio
-Austin
-Las Vegas
-Raleigh-Durham
-Nashville

Method Man said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Along the lines of the taxpayers giving money to sports teams/owners for new stadiums....


One of the arguments I have always heard is that it is done to boost the economy, build up an area, etc.

But has anyone ever done a study to show what sort of impact a sports team has on the immediate local economy?

In some areas I would think the impact is pretty noticeable.

For example, Arlington.

Maybe someone can speak to this but I was told that the area with the stadiums was not very developed in the 90s. Then the new ballpark was built, then the cowboys and now the new Rangers stadium. Around it you have multiple new hotels, restaurants and a new National museum being built. It is hard to prove that none of that would not have come there if not for the stadiums but it seems reasonable they only did.

There are always events going on at the stadiums- high school sports, little league, cheerleading, church, business meetings, minor league/ secondary sports teams, etc.

So in this case it seems like the money on new stadiums led to more development but I know that is not the case in all cities. Seems like a good idea for a study in economics.

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The problem with using Arlington as an example is that you have to wonder what building all of those stadiums has really done for the city of Arlington?

Arlington is by far the largest suburb in the metroplex...yet its business community is nowhere close to smaller suburbs like Irving, Plano, Richardson, or Frisco....the initial 3 cities all invested heavily in DART and public transportation.

For the last 15 years most of the visitors to those major events in Arlington have stayed in Dallas or FT Worth for their lodging and entertainment.
The new Loews Hotel will help keep some visitors and their $$$ local to Arlington, but most people that come in town for an event at Jerry World will spend the bulk of their money in Dallas.

I'm just playing the devils advocate...... because I'm one that thinks that using taxpayer $$$ for local stadiums does have some benefit to the local community.

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Your first sentence was the point of my post..... a study that gathers that data to see what it has done. Because like I mentioned there are numerous hotels around the stadiums that have been built or being built currently that more than likely would not be there if not for the stadiums.

This study could also look at where the participants stay. I would find it highly unlikely that people fly into DFW for a game or event at the stadiums mere minutes away from the airport to then travel 30 minutes to a hotel.

I would bet the majority of people who come in to an event at any of the 3 stadiums stay close to it like people tend to do for a business convention/gathering. They don't go to the convention and then drive 30 minutes away to a hotel.

But again this would be the point of the study- track how many events the stadiums have, where the people stay, where they eat, etc. and the economic boost this provides

or for some cities how many events go to other places and the stadium doesn't provide a boost.

Jack Bauer said:

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So colleges are going to take a page from pro teams and hijack money by threatening to relocate??

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I would be beyond livid if a college team threatened to do this to my town.

**** OU. I would help them pack for the move and tell them to let the door hit them on the way out.

Stefano DiMera said:

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SMU is 5 miles from downtown Dallas.

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And I have looked, but I cannot find that "hilltop" they keep referring to.

Pecos 45 said:

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Stefano DiMera said:

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SMU is 5 miles from downtown Dallas.

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And I have looked, but I cannot find that "hilltop" they keep referring to.

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Go to the top step at the entrance to Dallas Hall and turn around. You have an unobstructed view of the downtown skyline. It's the highest point N of downtown until you get to Hillcrest HS at Walnut Hill.

Method Man said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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Method Man said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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Method Man said:

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historian said:

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I will take your word for it. I've never been to OK.

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You are not missing anything. The zoo is average. There are a couple of Cowboy museums. The area of OKC I like the most is the brick town area downtown around their minor league baseball park.

Tulsa is the superior city to OKC. Tulsa has nicer stuff than OKC even though the two cities are about the same.
Tulsa is one of those weird cities in that the nicer part of town is in South Tulsa, while North Tulsa is full of meth addicts.

South Tulsa has some beautiful neighborhoods that will remind you of Grapevine, East Plano or Colleyville. Nice homes with big country lots.

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So, business guys go to the local zoo on business trips? New one to me. The areas you are listing sound like you are reading them from an encyclopedia. Locals are not going to Bricktown. That's like saying 'The West End' is Dallas.

And, 10 years ago I would have agreed with you about Tulsa. But, OKC has easily surpassed Tulsa and Dallas.

But, thanks for the softball question:

- OKC has more live music and live concert venues, large and small. The Jones Assembly is easily the coolest venue anywhere.

- OKC has more Michelin starred chefs than Texas, the last two James Beard (national chef of the year) award winners, an Iron chef, a Bon Appetit and USA Today top 10 national restaurant (Ma Der Lao) and four top 50 restaurants (Cafe Kacao, Grey Sweater, Ma Der Lao, Nonesuch - also named the best new restaurant in America a few years ago by Bon Appetit.)

- Go to Riversport which includes a 1/2 mile man-made river rapids course and the US Olympic Training Center for river sports. OKC will be hosting the river-based Olympic events for the 2028 Olympics.

- Watch a movie being filmed; OKC is top 10 for permanent film studios. Most of of the B-movie Christian titles are made at Prairie Surf Studios. Weirdly, 'Tulsa King' is filmed in OKC. I've seen a dozen different stars around town, filming on the street or dining.

- Tulsa wins on museums. Although, OKC has the First Americans museum which is really cool and they are building a $1B Vegas style resort around it with 2 hotels, a giant indoor water park, and lagoon with beach area.

- If you like beer, The Prairie Bomb is a Top 10 US beer, brewed at Prairie Artisan Ales. The Big Friendly Brewery has won Brewery of the Year at the Great American Beer festival for the last 2 years (that's the Super Bowl of Beer festivals).

Locals don't go to Bricktown. Locals go to Midtown, The Plaza, and The Paseo. All are walkable for restaurant and bar crawls.

And, things keep getting better, in a few years you can:

- Gawk at the tallest building the world which is currently being built in your favorite part of town.

- Enjoy the new $1B NBA/concert arena.

- Enjoy our new 10k seat outdoor pro soccer and events center.

- Enjoy 2028 Olympic river events

This list can go on and on.

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You'd be amazed at what you can do when all of your afternoon appointments cancel. I'm not from Oklahoma....I'm a visitor....so speaking down to me as if I should know where all of these local spots are is kinda silly.
Thank you for some of the recommendations. It sounds like you are a very proud booster of Oklahoma City.

OKC is ok. The people are friendly. The women are country girl thick in the right places....but this city is just the definition of average.

In terms of cities in the Southwest I would rank OKC squarely behind Tulsa, and Ft Worth when it came to peer cities. All three of those cities are pretty similar in that they are big on the Cowboy culture.

This place is nothing compared to Dallas, Houston or Austin. The only way you could compare OKC to Dallas is you like small, boring cities with not a lot to do.

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If you are going to say OKC sucks and is average. You are going to get a list of reasons why it is way better than average.

Saying that OKC is big on cowboy culture was true 30 years ago. But, bringing up cowboy culture and OKC today, shows you don't really know what you are talking about.

And, as someone who has lived in Dallas, goes to Tulsa for events frequently, and travels nationally for work and has seen every large and mid-size city in the US multiple times, OKC is top 10% easily.

It's not Austin. Austin has great live music and great restaurants. It's not New York or LA or Atlanta. But, it is a top 3 mid-size city.

You know what OKC has the large cities don't? Access.

In Dallas, people talk about going to Cowboys games. But, only a small handful actually do it. Too many people competing for the same event. People talk about some awesome restaurant but very few actually do it because it is an hour+ in traffic. My LA co-workers talk about going to the beach but almost no one does because they live 2 hours away in traffic.

In OKC, I can actually get NBA tickets. I actually go to the nationally rated restaurants. I actually do all of the cool things.

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Top 3 Mid size city.....according to who?
You....the OKC booster?


If you are saying top 3 city in Oklahoma then I would agree with you. I would rank OKC behind Tulsa and Ft Worth when it comes to medium sized cities in the Southwest.

What are you defining as mid size city? Less than 3 million people in the metro population?
That my definition of a medium sized city.

All of these medium sized cities are superior to Oklahoma City:
-New Orleans
-San Antonio
-Austin
-Las Vegas
-Raleigh-Durham
-Nashville

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Yeah, I was a little zealous with top 3.

Look, if you are in OKC tonight, you need to get out of the Best Western or whatever crappy old hotel you are staying in where you see cowboy stuff and go to Fassler Hall for a beer. Then, walk over to Barrio's and sit on the patio for decent mexican. Order a Cheech and Chong Old Fashioned.

Next time you are in town, get reservations at Grey Sweater and enjoy dinner for once.

IF you two are in town together you should meet up so you can show him around to the places you are naming.

San Antonio is not "medium sized"

historian said:

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San Antonio us not "medium sized"

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What would you define a city with a metro population of approximately 2.5 million people?
Are you calling San Antonio a small or large city?

Gotta be large. It has more people than Dallas (not talking metro pop.)

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Gotta be large. It has more people than Dallas (not talking metro pop.)

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You can only really judge cities based on their metropolitan populations.

San Antonio is not a larger city than Atlanta, Boston or Dallas.....but if you only look at a cities proper population you might get tricked into saying something foolish like:
"San Antonio is a larger city than Atlanta, Dallas, or Boston because San Antonio has a proper population of 1.4 million while Boston only has 675k and Atlanta has 500k"

If you were to ever go to any of these cities, it would be clear as daylight that they were larger, more robust cities than San Antonio.

San Antonio has a large proper population because it has very few suburbs. While Dallas is the opposite.
Dallas is similar to Los Angeles in that it has a bunch of heavily populated suburbs.

The San Antonio Metro Population is: 2.5 million people
Atlanta: 7.2 Million
Boston: 8.3 million
Dallas: 8.6 million

A large city is really anything over 5 million people.
There are 14 cities in the United States with metro populations of over 5 million people.
Those cities are going to have the largest GDP's, the most corporations, the most $$$....etc

Method Man said:

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BigGameBaylorBear said:

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Gotta be large. It has more people than Dallas (not talking metro pop.)

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You can only really judge cities based on their metropolitan populations.

San Antonio is not a larger city than Atlanta, Boston or Dallas.....but if you only look at a cities proper population you might get tricked into saying something foolish like:
"San Antonio is a larger city than Atlanta, Dallas, or Boston because San Antonio has a proper population of 1.4 million while Boston only has 675k and Atlanta has 500k"

If you were to ever go to any of these cities, it would be clear as daylight that they were larger, more robust cities than San Antonio.

San Antonio has a large proper population because it has very few suburbs. While Dallas is the opposite.
Dallas is similar to Los Angeles in that it has a bunch of heavily populated suburbs.

The San Antonio Metro Population is: 2.5 million people
Atlanta: 7.2 Million
Boston: 8.3 million
Dallas: 8.6 million

A large city is really anything over 5 million people.
There are 14 cities in the United States with metro populations of over 5 million people.
Those cities are going to have the largest GDP's, the most corporations, the most $$$....etc

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Let's be reminded that Fort Worth has never been a suburb of Dallas.

I would think SA would be a large city just maybe on the lower end when ranking them. And that would be whether you are talking about actual city limits or the metro area.

Method Man said:

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historian said:

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San Antonio us not "medium sized"

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What would you define a city with a metro population of approximately 2.5 million people?
Are you calling San Antonio a small or large city?

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Of course it's a large city: it's the seventh largest city in the country by population. Such things are all relative but by American standards, San Antonio cannot be anything but large. Austin, Ft Worth, & El Paso are large too. Waco, Corpus Christi, etc are medium sized cities.

Metropolitan area is not the ONLY way to measure or compare cities. In some cases it might be the best but not necessarily always. Even by that standard, though, SA is large. Any metropolitan are of 1 million or more is large.

Internationally, things are different. The developing world has plenty of megacities with 20 million or more. Thankfully, the US does not except maybe the greater NYC area. There are not many cities over 10 million people in the more advanced countries: London, Paris, Tokyo, Seoul, etc.

historian said:

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Metropolitan area is not the ONLY way to measure or compare cities..

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Per Capita income is one.

And then another measure that people get very mad if you mention…but let's just say it has to do with how safe the local parks are and if you can leave your car unlocked while getting groceries

cowboycwr said:

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I would think SA would be a large city just maybe on the lower end when ranking them. And that would be whether you are talking about actual city limits or the metro area.

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I guess it matters what everyone considers "large" or small.

San Antonio is generally considered a "Small Market" when it comes to sports markets. This is why the Spurs are the only professional franchise in the city.

Its typically the most populated 30-35 cities/TV markets that have the money, GDP, and resources to support professional sport franchise.

I would consider a city with a metro population of 1.5 to 3 Million to be a medium sized city.

historian said:

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Metropolitan area is not the ONLY way to measure or compare cities. In some cases it might be the best but not necessarily always. Even by that standard, though, SA is large. Any metropolitan are of 1 million or more is large.

Internationally, things are different. The developing world has plenty of megacities with 20 million or more. Thankfully, the US does not except maybe the greater NYC area. There are not many cities over 10 million people in the more advanced countries: London, Paris, Tokyo, Seoul, etc.

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Historian,

San Antonio is not really the 7th largest city in the United States....in actuality its more like 23-25th. .
A city with a metro area of only 1 million people is NOT that big.....not big enough to support multiple pro sports franchises.

The reason you have to compare metro area when comparing cities are for people that say dumb things like San Antonio is larger than Dallas. If you say something like that you are essentially excluding all the people that live in Plano, Irving, Richardson, Frisco, Garland as Dallas residents.

When I was younger I used to think I was really clever when I told people that Jacksonville, Fl was actually bigger than Miami. J-Ville has a larger proper population than Miami.....but Miami is a much larger city when you factor in the residents that live in the suburbs.

If you want to really understand what the largest cities in the United States are please follow this link:
These cities are going to be the largest TV markets, the cities with the highest GDP...the cities with the most people and the most influence.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area#:~:text=Combined%20Statistical%20Area%20(CSA)%20is,demonstrate%20economic%20or%20social%20linkage.

Edmond Bear said:

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Method Man said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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Method Man said:

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Edmond Bear said:

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Method Man said:

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historian said:

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I will take your word for it. I've never been to OK.

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You are not missing anything. The zoo is average. There are a couple of Cowboy museums. The area of OKC I like the most is the brick town area downtown around their minor league baseball park.

Tulsa is the superior city to OKC. Tulsa has nicer stuff than OKC even though the two cities are about the same.
Tulsa is one of those weird cities in that the nicer part of town is in South Tulsa, while North Tulsa is full of meth addicts.

South Tulsa has some beautiful neighborhoods that will remind you of Grapevine, East Plano or Colleyville. Nice homes with big country lots.

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So, business guys go to the local zoo on business trips? New one to me. The areas you are listing sound like you are reading them from an encyclopedia. Locals are not going to Bricktown. That's like saying 'The West End' is Dallas.

And, 10 years ago I would have agreed with you about Tulsa. But, OKC has easily surpassed Tulsa and Dallas.

But, thanks for the softball question:

- OKC has more live music and live concert venues, large and small. The Jones Assembly is easily the coolest venue anywhere.

- OKC has more Michelin starred chefs than Texas, the last two James Beard (national chef of the year) award winners, an Iron chef, a Bon Appetit and USA Today top 10 national restaurant (Ma Der Lao) and four top 50 restaurants (Cafe Kacao, Grey Sweater, Ma Der Lao, Nonesuch - also named the best new restaurant in America a few years ago by Bon Appetit.)

- Go to Riversport which includes a 1/2 mile man-made river rapids course and the US Olympic Training Center for river sports. OKC will be hosting the river-based Olympic events for the 2028 Olympics.

- Watch a movie being filmed; OKC is top 10 for permanent film studios. Most of of the B-movie Christian titles are made at Prairie Surf Studios. Weirdly, 'Tulsa King' is filmed in OKC. I've seen a dozen different stars around town, filming on the street or dining.

- Tulsa wins on museums. Although, OKC has the First Americans museum which is really cool and they are building a $1B Vegas style resort around it with 2 hotels, a giant indoor water park, and lagoon with beach area.

- If you like beer, The Prairie Bomb is a Top 10 US beer, brewed at Prairie Artisan Ales. The Big Friendly Brewery has won Brewery of the Year at the Great American Beer festival for the last 2 years (that's the Super Bowl of Beer festivals).

Locals don't go to Bricktown. Locals go to Midtown, The Plaza, and The Paseo. All are walkable for restaurant and bar crawls.

And, things keep getting better, in a few years you can:

- Gawk at the tallest building the world which is currently being built in your favorite part of town.

- Enjoy the new $1B NBA/concert arena.

- Enjoy our new 10k seat outdoor pro soccer and events center.

- Enjoy 2028 Olympic river events

This list can go on and on.

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You'd be amazed at what you can do when all of your afternoon appointments cancel. I'm not from Oklahoma....I'm a visitor....so speaking down to me as if I should know where all of these local spots are is kinda silly.
Thank you for some of the recommendations. It sounds like you are a very proud booster of Oklahoma City.

OKC is ok. The people are friendly. The women are country girl thick in the right places....but this city is just the definition of average.

In terms of cities in the Southwest I would rank OKC squarely behind Tulsa, and Ft Worth when it came to peer cities. All three of those cities are pretty similar in that they are big on the Cowboy culture.

This place is nothing compared to Dallas, Houston or Austin. The only way you could compare OKC to Dallas is you like small, boring cities with not a lot to do.

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If you are going to say OKC sucks and is average. You are going to get a list of reasons why it is way better than average.

Saying that OKC is big on cowboy culture was true 30 years ago. But, bringing up cowboy culture and OKC today, shows you don't really know what you are talking about.

And, as someone who has lived in Dallas, goes to Tulsa for events frequently, and travels nationally for work and has seen every large and mid-size city in the US multiple times, OKC is top 10% easily.

It's not Austin. Austin has great live music and great restaurants. It's not New York or LA or Atlanta. But, it is a top 3 mid-size city.

You know what OKC has the large cities don't? Access.

In Dallas, people talk about going to Cowboys games. But, only a small handful actually do it. Too many people competing for the same event. People talk about some awesome restaurant but very few actually do it because it is an hour+ in traffic. My LA co-workers talk about going to the beach but almost no one does because they live 2 hours away in traffic.

In OKC, I can actually get NBA tickets. I actually go to the nationally rated restaurants. I actually do all of the cool things.

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Top 3 Mid size city.....according to who?
You....the OKC booster?


If you are saying top 3 city in Oklahoma then I would agree with you. I would rank OKC behind Tulsa and Ft Worth when it comes to medium sized cities in the Southwest.

What are you defining as mid size city? Less than 3 million people in the metro population?
That my definition of a medium sized city.

All of these medium sized cities are superior to Oklahoma City:
-New Orleans
-San Antonio
-Austin
-Las Vegas
-Raleigh-Durham
-Nashville

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Yeah, I was a little zealous with top 3.

Look, if you are in OKC tonight, you need to get out of the Best Western or whatever crappy old hotel you are staying in where you see cowboy stuff and go to Fassler Hall for a beer. Then, walk over to Barrio's and sit on the patio for decent mexican. Order a Cheech and Chong Old Fashioned.

Next time you are in town, get reservations at Grey Sweater and enjoy dinner for once.

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Edmond,

Thank you for the recommendations. I'm anxious to try something in OKC that is not Country Fried Steak, or Billy Sims BBQ.....even though the CFS is excellent.

I was thinking about you last night, and this conversation we've been having. I drove around OKC last night to see if I was just blind to the greatness of OKC.....and I'm sorry man....I'm just not impressed.

It might seem like I'm hating on small, country, podunk cities in Oklahoma but I'm really not.
As we speak, I'm typing this at the Tulsa Airport ....and I'm going to reiterate what I said earlier....Tulsa is way nicer than OKC. I think Tulsa is a really sharp city.

Tulsa has a prettier topography.
OKC is mostly flat, and located in the Great Plains....while Tulsa has these big badass neighborhoods that are on hills overlooking the city.
For whatever reason the trees are nicer looking than they are in OKC. They have more color because I think the soil in this part of Oklahoma is different than were OKC is located.

It seems like Tulsa has a lot more nice neighborhoods, and the higher end communities look nicer because the landscape is prettier.

The first time I came to Tulsa was in 2014, and my immediate impression was that this was a richer, classier version of Oklahoma City. My opinion has not changed a bit.

The BOK Center vs the Paycom Center (where the Thunder play) is a perfect representation of Tulsa vs OKC.
The Paycom Center is average....while the BOK Center is gorgeous.