Can somebody please give me an objective but brief summary of what is going on here?

A Messy Methodist Church Schism
Hundreds of local congregations have left over teachings on sex.
Theological schisms are never pretty. The United Methodist ChurchAmerica's third-largest religious body, with over 6.2 million membersis in the thick of its own over its teachings on sexuality. Hundreds of congregations have voted to leave the denomination, which had 13 million members world-wide as of 2020, and thousands more likely will. On Aug. 7, United Methodism's second- and seventh-largest churches by attendance, both in the Houston area, voted to quit the denomination.
What brought United Methodism to this divide was its decision-making body's 2019 "Traditional Plan"a document that affirmed its ban on same-sex marriage and mandated that all clergy be celibate if single and monogamous if married. That sets the church apart from nearly every other mainline Protestant denomination. The traditionalists won thanks to votes from conservative African delegates, whose churches have grown by millions even as the U.S. has declined by nearly the same magnitude.
When liberal-leaning U.S. bishops and clergy chafed at complying with the plan, a compromise was born. In early 2020 conservative and liberal church leaders announced a "Protocol of Reconciliation and Grace Through Separation." The protocol allowed each congregation to vote its preference between a more traditional or more liberal denominationand was expected to be approved at the General Conference's quadrennial assembly in Minneapolis that year. But then Covid arrived, and the convention was postponed three times, to 2024. The decision left many traditionalists feeling betrayed and exasperated. In May of this year, those who couldn't wait any longer launched the Global Methodist Churcha traditionally conservative denomination, led by the Rev. Keith Boyette.
Now some congregations are weighing whether to join this Global Methodist Church. Local church properties are owned by the denomination through state-level conferences. The 2019 General Conference approved a temporary policy allowing congregations to leave with property by paying two years' worth of "apportionments" to the national church, plus clergy pension liabilities. Those exits must happen by December 2023.
Between 2019 and 2021, 167 congregations exited. When the 53 local annual conferences met this spring, they ratified 305 additional exits from 24 conferences. At least 11 conferences will host special sessions later this year to ratify reportedly 1,000 more. Additional thousands are expected next year as congregations scramble to meet the 2023 deadline. (There are about 30,000 United Methodist churches nationwide.) Complicating the process are more firmly liberal conferences that are adding extra payments to churches' exits. Some conferences with more sympathetic conservative leadership have reduced payments by applying millions of dollars in their reserves toward the exit fees.
The messiest departure so far has been in the Florida conference, where 106 congregations (roughly 20% of the state's membership) are jointly suing the bishop for charging exorbitant exit fees. They believe they're being held for "ransom." Their litigation also alleges that their bishop isn't upholding denominational law about sexuality. One Florida minister, the congregations point out, has openly conducted six same-sex weddings. The bishop himself attempted to ratify two openly gay clergy in June but failed to achieve the 75% threshold needed from Florida clergy. This litigation complains of wider defiance of church law, citing the 2016 election of an openly lesbian bishop in the church's western jurisdiction and a drag queen candidate for ordination in Illinois.
Meanwhile, United Methodist leaders in Africa remain committed to the church's conservative teachings. They are waiting for the General Conference's convention in 2024, which they hope will ratify the church's protocol for separating the denomination into liberal and conservative branches. It's unlikely many of them would stay in a denomination that liberalizes on sex. While most of Africa's Methodists will likely join the Global Methodist Church, some may be tempted by autonomy.
That temptation could apply to many congregations in the U.S. fed up with denominational bureaucracy. Congregationalism defies Methodism's more connectional tradition, which has typically featured bishops' appointing pastors to churches.
Challenging both United Methodism and the Global Methodist Church are declining denominational interests among American Christians. While most historical denominations are declining, nondenominational churches in the U.S. are growing.
Working against this drift are 60 traditionalist theologians who met in Alexandria, Va., in January to craft a 25,000-word articulation of "classic" Methodist doctrine. Rooted in the teachings of 18th-century founder John Wesley, their statement ("The Faith Once Delivered") is broken into six sections and addresses the nature of God, creation, revelation, salvation, the church and eschatology.
Promoting a specific Protestant tradition over generic nondenominational evangelicalism in America will be difficult. United Methodism has lost five million members in the U.S. since 1968 and will lose millions more. Mainline Protestantism has been sidelinedand it will take years for United Methodism's schism to resolve.
The hope of traditional American Methodists is that once freed from denominational bureaucracy, they'll be able to grow anewas their peers in Africa are doing, and as America's early Methodists did. Americans hoping for revived spirituality and civil society ought to wish them well.
Mr. Tooley, a United Methodist member, is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-messy-methodist-schism-united-global-church-sex-general-conference-florida-africa-2024-tradition-11660855107?mod=Searchresults_pos1&page=1

A UMC church in Lubbock voted today to go Global by 95%.

My church just went through this with the Episcopal church and we had to leave our property as of today. It's a 300 year old church. Our diocese became Anglican and there has been a 10 year ongoing lawsuit over which churches get to keep what property. I dont think the Episcopalians have a congregation to use our church property but we cant meet there anymore. There also is an elementary school as part of the church but it gets to operate for another year.

muddybrazos said:

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My church just went through this with the Episcopal church and we had to leave our property as of today. It's a 300 year old church. Our diocese became Anglican and there has been a 10 year ongoing lawsuit over which churches get to keep what property. I dont think the Episcopalians have a congregation to use our church property but we cant meet there anymore. There also is an elementary school as part of the church but it gets to operate for another year.

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Where is this church?

Stranger said:

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muddybrazos said:

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My church just went through this with the Episcopal church and we had to leave our property as of today. It's a 300 year old church. Our diocese became Anglican and there has been a 10 year ongoing lawsuit over which churches get to keep what property. I dont think the Episcopalians have a congregation to use our church property but we cant meet there anymore. There also is an elementary school as part of the church but it gets to operate for another year.

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Where is this church?

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Christ Church Anglican in Mount Pleasant, SC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Church_(Mount_Pleasant,_South_Carolina)

beardoc said:

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A UMC church in Lubbock voted today to go Global by 95%.

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I believe First UMC Waco voted to go Global by around 85% this summer.

Very interesting situation.

Because the United Methodist Church allows the global south to vote....as a denomination it's getting more orthodox and conservative.

But the more liberal members seem to hate this.

But instead of the liberals/heterodox leaving to start their own group its the conservatives/orthodox that are leaving.

JL said:

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beardoc said:

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A UMC church in Lubbock voted today to go Global by 95%.

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I believe First UMC Waco voted to go Global by around 85% this summer.

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Correct. So far in the CT Conference it's been primarily the small rural churches leaving, with a few of the larger churches in midsize towns. First Waco is the largest in CT to leave, along with First Temple and First Corsicana. No word yet on any decisions by other Waco area churches (Woodway, Cogdell, Central, et al).

It appears, with a few exceptions, that most of the big city churches did not make a move in this first round of disaffiliations. I don't recall seeing any of the larger Tarrant County churches (First FtW, Arborlawn, Arlington Heights, First Arlington, Whites Chapel, Hurst, Euless, Mansfield, etc) taking action yet, although I hear that Whites Chapel and Mansfield are actively exploring the issue. My guess is that the big city churches are more likely to have divergence of opinion among both clergy and laity, and will be among the last to decide. That's probably where the greatest angst and discord will occur.

A few other tidbits:

Acton UMC (largest in the Granbury area) voted to stay in the UMC; their minister submitted his resignation effective 9/1 as a result.

Two largest churches in Texas Conference in suburban Houston (Woodlands and Faithbridge) voted to leave. No word on any action from any of the large in-city Houston churches (St Lukes, First, Memorial Drive, St Pauls, Chapelwood) yet.

Two largest churches in Arkansas voted to leave (Fayetteville and Jonesboro). No word on any of the churches in Little Rock.

Largest church in suburban Atlanta (Mt. Bethel) voted to leave and go independent. I have a former BU roommate who is on staff at another large suburban Atlanta UMC; they are taking a wait and see approach for now.

Looks like First Amarillo was going to vote yesterday.


And heaven help us all, there is a very rational, very informative discussion thread about this on TexAgs. https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3286426/2 Although, having ventured over there, I feel as if I need to go take a disinfecting shower right now.

whitetrash said:

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JL said:

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beardoc said:

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A UMC church in Lubbock voted today to go Global by 95%.

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I believe First UMC Waco voted to go Global by around 85% this summer.

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Correct. So far in the CT Conference it's been primarily the small rural churches leaving, with a few of the larger churches in midsize towns. First Waco is the largest in CT to leave, along with First Temple and First Corsicana. No word yet on any decisions by other Waco area churches (Woodway, Cogdell, Central, et al).

It appears, with a few exceptions, that most of the big city churches did not make a move in this first round of disaffiliations. I don't recall seeing any of the larger Tarrant County churches (First FtW, Arborlawn, Arlington Heights, First Arlington, Whites Chapel, Hurst, Euless, Mansfield, etc) taking action yet, although I hear that Whites Chapel and Mansfield are actively exploring the issue. My guess is that the big city churches are more likely to have divergence of opinion among both clergy and laity, and will be among the last to decide. That's probably where the greatest angst and discord will occur.

A few other tidbits:

Acton UMC (largest in the Granbury area) voted to stay in the UMC; their minister submitted his resignation effective 9/1 as a result.

Two largest churches in Texas Conference in suburban Houston (Woodlands and Faithbridge) voted to leave. No word on any action from any of the large in-city Houston churches (St Lukes, First, Memorial Drive, St Pauls, Chapelwood) yet.

Two largest churches in Arkansas voted to leave (Fayetteville and Jonesboro). No word on any of the churches in Little Rock.

Largest church in suburban Atlanta (Mt. Bethel) voted to leave and go independent. I have a former BU roommate who is on staff at another large suburban Atlanta UMC; they are taking a wait and see approach for now.

Looks like First Amarillo was going to vote yesterday.


And heaven help us all, there is a very rational, very informative discussion thread about this on TexAgs. https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3286426/2 Although, having ventured over there, I feel as if I need to go take a disinfecting shower right now.

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This sounds very similar to what's going on with the Episcopalian split. The churches that want to stick with the traditional faith and scripture are leaving for Anglican and those who want to be woke progressives are staying with the Episcopalians. The new bishop for the Episcopal church of S. Carolina is a woman who got all her degress from Bekeley &Columbia and she helped start the BLM chapter of Denver. She is more concerned with equity and inclusion of LGBT than what the bible has to say. Our Anglican bishop met with her to try and workout some agreements and he said she would make a great Unitarian. I feel bad for the older members of my church who have been there for decades and many already have graveyard plots in the historic graveyard next to family members.

It's a real mess.

From what I'm reading, thus far only a small percentage of Methodist churches have opted to go global.

I'm glad we Baptist churches each own our own property!

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

Dnicknames said:

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Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

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Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

C. Jordan said:

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Dnicknames said:

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Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

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Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

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It is incorrect that a UMC church may not keep its property if it disaffiliates and goes independent.

Here is the framework agreed upon:

What terms must be included? The General Council on Finance and Administration shall develop a standard form for Disaffiliation Agreements per 2553 to protect The United Methodist Church as set forth in 807.9. The agreement shall include a recognition of the validity and applicability of 2501, notwithstanding the release of property therefrom. Other terms shall include:
a) Apportionments: The local church shall pay any unpaid apportionments for the year in which the effective date of disaffiliation is set, as well as an additional 12 months of apportionments based on the decimal for the year in which the date of disaffiliation occurs.
b) Property: A disaffiliating local church shall have the right to retain its real and personal, tangible and intangible property. (Note that certain endowments, restricted gifts and intellectual property may be excluded.)
c) Property: All transfers of property shall be made at the point of disaffiliation.
d) Property: All costs for transfer of title or other legal work shall be borne by the disaffiliating local
church.
e) Pension Liabilities: The local church shall contribute withdrawal liability in an amount equal to
its pro rata share of any aggregate unfunded pension obligations to the annual conference. The General Board of Pension and Health Benefits shall determine the aggregate funding obligations of the annual conference using market factors similar to a commercial annuity provider, from which the annual conference will determine the local church's share using the decimal for the year in which the date of disaffiliation occurs. (Even if a local church has never had a clergy requiring a pension contribution, it still must contribute its pro rata share because the NTC takes on the unfunded pension obligations in covenant as a conference.)
f) Other Liabilities: The local church shall satisfy all other debts, loans, and liabilities, or assign and transfer them to its new entity, at the point of disaffiliation.
g) Payment terms: Payment shall occur prior to the effective date of departure.
h) Disaffiliating Churches Continuing as Plan Sponsors of the General Board of Pension and Health
Benefits Plans: The United Methodist Church believes that a local church disaffiliating under 2553 shall continue to share common religious bonds and convictions with The United Methodist Church based on shared Wesleyan theology and tradition and Methodist roots, unless the local church expressly resolves to the contrary. As such, a local church disaffiliating under 2553 shall continue to be eligible to sponsor voluntary employee benefit plans through the General Board of Pension and Health Benefits under 1504.2, subject to the applicable terms and conditions of the plans.
i) Trust Clause: Once the disaffiliating local church has reimbursed the annual conference for all funds due under the agreement, and provided that there are no other outstanding liabilities or claims against The United Methodist Church as a result of the disaffiliation, in consideration of the provisions of this paragraph, the annual conference shall release any claims that it may have

Some conference bishops have gone beyond these requirements to disaffiliate. The 100 Florida churches that have gone to court believe that their bishop has not rightfully followed the agreement.

That is a truly sad situation that agreement could not be reached out of public court. Most churches wish no such thing, but want to follow New Testament teaching on church matters in public court.

The failure of some bishops over the last few decades to follow the United Methodist Book of Discipline (the UMC constitution covering church practices) and the stacking of the jurisdictional council (UMC Supreme Court) with bishops who refuse to discipline those openly violating the Book of Discipline is the crux and cause of the way the split is going down.

The UMC was growing more conservative as it grew rapidly outside the U.S. However, it became apparent after the last General Conference of the UMC (happens every 4 years) that the ignoring of the BoD by the jurisdictional council would continue. Many pastors and some bishops who voted more conservatively (traditional) decided it was now time to leave.

BTW, one of the first Houston churches to leave was BeringUMC, a very progressive church that did not like the conservative voting of the last general conference. A few other mote progressive churches have left nationwide, but not many.

Redbrickbear said:

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Very interesting situation.

Because the United Methodist Church allows the global south to vote....as a denomination it's getting more orthodox and conservative.

But the more liberal members seem to hate this.

But instead of the liberals/heterodox leaving to start their own group its the conservatives/orthodox that are leaving.

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Easier the change a church, university, and non-profit from within than start a new one. And not as expensive.

Join a Baptist church and you will never have to deal with internal dissention again.

ABC BEAR said:

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Join a Baptist church and you will never have to deal with internal dissention again.

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True but then you don't get the unity of a national/international church.

I see the appeal of doing it both ways.

I think for the future with all the fights over doctrine & ideology that are created by modernity that the local church owing the property alone is the best way.

We've seen it in every mainline denomination where there is a group the decides the Culture is more important than the Church.

C. Jordan said:

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Dnicknames said:

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Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

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Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

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Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

J.B.Katz said:

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C. Jordan said:

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Dnicknames said:

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Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

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Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

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Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

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Nobody is saying a person with same-sex attraction shouldn't be able to go to church. That's not why churches are leaving the UMC and you know it.

You always come on this board and change the subject to virtue signal. For the love of God, please stop.

J.B.Katz said:

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C. Jordan said:

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Dnicknames said:

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Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

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Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

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Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

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While I don't disagree that sinners are deserving of our love (after all, we are all sinners), if the history of the early Christian church has shown us anything, it is that condoning that which God calls sinful is a recipe for disaster and will eventually destroy a church. This is but another example.

It is not "loving" to allow our brothers and sisters in Christ to be deceived. We must speak truth. That does not mean we ostracize or condemn them, but as scripture says, it is the truth that shall set us free. When we start substituting our own will for God's, this is what happens.

J.B.Katz said:

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C. Jordan said:

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Dnicknames said:

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Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

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Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

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Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

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Well said.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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C. Jordan said:

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Dnicknames said:

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Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

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Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

It is incorrect that a UMC church may not keep its property if it disaffiliates and goes independent.

Here is the framework agreed upon:

What terms must be included? The General Council on Finance and Administration shall develop a standard form for Disaffiliation Agreements per 2553 to protect The United Methodist Church as set forth in 807.9. The agreement shall include a recognition of the validity and applicability of 2501, notwithstanding the release of property therefrom. Other terms shall include:
a) Apportionments: The local church shall pay any unpaid apportionments for the year in which the effective date of disaffiliation is set, as well as an additional 12 months of apportionments based on the decimal for the year in which the date of disaffiliation occurs.
b) Property: A disaffiliating local church shall have the right to retain its real and personal, tangible and intangible property. (Note that certain endowments, restricted gifts and intellectual property may be excluded.)
c) Property: All transfers of property shall be made at the point of disaffiliation.
d) Property: All costs for transfer of title or other legal work shall be borne by the disaffiliating local
church.
e) Pension Liabilities: The local church shall contribute withdrawal liability in an amount equal to
its pro rata share of any aggregate unfunded pension obligations to the annual conference. The General Board of Pension and Health Benefits shall determine the aggregate funding obligations of the annual conference using market factors similar to a commercial annuity provider, from which the annual conference will determine the local church's share using the decimal for the year in which the date of disaffiliation occurs. (Even if a local church has never had a clergy requiring a pension contribution, it still must contribute its pro rata share because the NTC takes on the unfunded pension obligations in covenant as a conference.)
f) Other Liabilities: The local church shall satisfy all other debts, loans, and liabilities, or assign and transfer them to its new entity, at the point of disaffiliation.
g) Payment terms: Payment shall occur prior to the effective date of departure.
h) Disaffiliating Churches Continuing as Plan Sponsors of the General Board of Pension and Health
Benefits Plans: The United Methodist Church believes that a local church disaffiliating under 2553 shall continue to share common religious bonds and convictions with The United Methodist Church based on shared Wesleyan theology and tradition and Methodist roots, unless the local church expressly resolves to the contrary. As such, a local church disaffiliating under 2553 shall continue to be eligible to sponsor voluntary employee benefit plans through the General Board of Pension and Health Benefits under 1504.2, subject to the applicable terms and conditions of the plans.
i) Trust Clause: Once the disaffiliating local church has reimbursed the annual conference for all funds due under the agreement, and provided that there are no other outstanding liabilities or claims against The United Methodist Church as a result of the disaffiliation, in consideration of the provisions of this paragraph, the annual conference shall release any claims that it may have

---

The article is about churches trying to leave without paying exit dues. They're trying to use Book of Discipline: 2548.2, but the Methodist court says they can't.

With all those dues, the price for leaving seems pretty high.

Again, real mess.

C. Jordan said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

Dnicknames said:

---

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

---

Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

---

Well said.

---

What other sins do you think your church should be more accepting of, and why? And by what authority do you declare them no longer sin?

Mothra said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

Dnicknames said:

---

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

---

Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

---

Well said.

---

What other sins do you think your church should be more accepting of, and why? And by what authority do you declare them no longer sin?

---

Well, my church tradition has said that Catholicism, abolitionism, integration, and interracial marriage were all sins.

So, I guess by the same process I determined that my church tradition was wrong.

C. Jordan said:

---

EatMoreSalmon said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

Dnicknames said:

---

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

---

Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

It is incorrect that a UMC church may not keep its property if it disaffiliates and goes independent.

Here is the framework agreed upon:

What terms must be included? The General Council on Finance and Administration shall develop a standard form for Disaffiliation Agreements per 2553 to protect The United Methodist Church as set forth in 807.9. The agreement shall include a recognition of the validity and applicability of 2501, notwithstanding the release of property therefrom. Other terms shall include:
a) Apportionments: The local church shall pay any unpaid apportionments for the year in which the effective date of disaffiliation is set, as well as an additional 12 months of apportionments based on the decimal for the year in which the date of disaffiliation occurs.
b) Property: A disaffiliating local church shall have the right to retain its real and personal, tangible and intangible property. (Note that certain endowments, restricted gifts and intellectual property may be excluded.)
c) Property: All transfers of property shall be made at the point of disaffiliation.
d) Property: All costs for transfer of title or other legal work shall be borne by the disaffiliating local
church.
e) Pension Liabilities: The local church shall contribute withdrawal liability in an amount equal to
its pro rata share of any aggregate unfunded pension obligations to the annual conference. The General Board of Pension and Health Benefits shall determine the aggregate funding obligations of the annual conference using market factors similar to a commercial annuity provider, from which the annual conference will determine the local church's share using the decimal for the year in which the date of disaffiliation occurs. (Even if a local church has never had a clergy requiring a pension contribution, it still must contribute its pro rata share because the NTC takes on the unfunded pension obligations in covenant as a conference.)
f) Other Liabilities: The local church shall satisfy all other debts, loans, and liabilities, or assign and transfer them to its new entity, at the point of disaffiliation.
g) Payment terms: Payment shall occur prior to the effective date of departure.
h) Disaffiliating Churches Continuing as Plan Sponsors of the General Board of Pension and Health
Benefits Plans: The United Methodist Church believes that a local church disaffiliating under 2553 shall continue to share common religious bonds and convictions with The United Methodist Church based on shared Wesleyan theology and tradition and Methodist roots, unless the local church expressly resolves to the contrary. As such, a local church disaffiliating under 2553 shall continue to be eligible to sponsor voluntary employee benefit plans through the General Board of Pension and Health Benefits under 1504.2, subject to the applicable terms and conditions of the plans.
i) Trust Clause: Once the disaffiliating local church has reimbursed the annual conference for all funds due under the agreement, and provided that there are no other outstanding liabilities or claims against The United Methodist Church as a result of the disaffiliation, in consideration of the provisions of this paragraph, the annual conference shall release any claims that it may have

---

The article is about churches trying to leave without paying exit dues. They're trying to use Book of Discipline: 2548.2, but the Methodist court says they can't.

With all those dues, the price for leaving seems pretty high.

Again, real mess.

---

For churches who have kept up with apportionments each year, it should not be terribly high. The pension figure can vary from conference to conference. Churches who borrowed heavily to build will have difficulty. Other burdens are being placed on churches by some bishops that are not following the commission's plan

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

Dnicknames said:

---

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

---

Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

---

Nobody is saying a person with same-sex attraction shouldn't be able to go to church. That's not why churches are leaving the UMC and you know it.

You always come on this board and change the subject to virtue signal. For the love of God, please stop.

---

Churches joining the "global" side won't recognize or condone gay marriage or ordain gay ministers.

Being allowed to attend a church where, if you are gay and out of the closet, you're considered a sinner unless you're celibate, isn't much of an accommodation. That recognition is at the root of the split. Churches like the Catholics, where there hasn't been a split, have some tolerant congregations, but the church dogma condemns those congregations along with their gay members. That's how the UMC has operated for the past 30 years.

Christ calls people to live in community. Telling gay people the only way they can live in community without being egregious sinners is to be celibate isn't living in community.

C. Jordan said:

---

Mothra said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

Dnicknames said:

---

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

---

Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

---

Well said.

---

What other sins do you think your church should be more accepting of, and why? And by what authority do you declare them no longer sin?

---

Well, my church tradition has said that Catholicism, abolitionism, integration, and interracial marriage were all sins.

So, I guess by the same process I determined that my church tradition was wrong.

---

To clarify, I was asking what sins (according to scripture not man-made church tradition) you thought were no longer sins and by what authority you declare them as such?

Thanks.

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

Dnicknames said:

---

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

---

Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

---

Nobody is saying a person with same-sex attraction shouldn't be able to go to church. That's not why churches are leaving the UMC and you know it.

You always come on this board and change the subject to virtue signal. For the love of God, please stop.

---

Churches joining the "global" side won't recognize or condone gay marriage or ordain gay ministers.

Being allowed to attend a church where, if you are gay and out of the closet, you're considered a sinner unless you're celibate, isn't much of an accommodation. That recognition is at the root of the split. Churches like the Catholics, where there hasn't been a split, have some tolerant congregations, but the church dogma condemns those congregations along with their gay members. That's how the UMC has operated for the past 30 years.

Christ calls people to live in community. Telling gay people the only way they can live in community without being egregious sinners is to be celibate isn't living in community.

---

Encouraging the drunk to stop buying 40's is loving.

If a person can't live in community with others without getting a dick in their ass then that sounds like a them problem.

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

Dnicknames said:

---

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

---

Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

---

Nobody is saying a person with same-sex attraction shouldn't be able to go to church. That's not why churches are leaving the UMC and you know it.

You always come on this board and change the subject to virtue signal. For the love of God, please stop.

---

Churches joining the "global" side won't recognize or condone gay marriage or ordain gay ministers.

Being allowed to attend a church where, if you are gay and out of the closet, you're considered a sinner unless you're celibate, isn't much of an accommodation. That recognition is at the root of the split. Churches like the Catholics, where there hasn't been a split, have some tolerant congregations, but the church dogma condemns those congregations along with their gay members. That's how the UMC has operated for the past 30 years.

Christ calls people to live in community. Telling gay people the only way they can live in community without being egregious sinners is to be celibate isn't living in community.

---

Encouraging the drunk to stop buying 40's is loving.

If a person can't live in community with others without getting a dick in their ass then that sounds like a them problem.

---

/s

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

JL said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

Dnicknames said:

---

Since July 2019 a group of United Methodist leaders, representing the wide range of theological positions within the denomination, have been negotiating to find a way through the United Methodist Church's impasse on the issue of human sexuality.

In early 2020, the negotiations, aided by mediator Kenneth Feinburg (special mediator for the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund), culminated in an agreement-in-principle that was unanimously endorsed by all participants.

It provides for the retention of the United Methodist Church as we know it, but also provides pathways for some United Methodists, on both the right and left sides of the theological spectrum, to form new denominations that will endorse different doctrinal standards on sexuality.

The media refers to this negatively as a "split." However, many believe that a thoughtful, mediated plan for amicable separation can be a good thing.

Matthew 6:34 says 'Therefore, do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.'

Christ's invitation is not a denial about a challenging road ahead. It's a clarion call to remain confident in your faith and purpose.

(Email from my United Methodist pastor copied above)

---

Puts it well, but some of that agreement has fallen apart.

I understand that one of the issues is that for a church to take its property with them, they have to join an organized denomination.

A good, but lengthy article:

https://baptistnews.com/article/events-turn-against-disaffected-forces-wanting-to-leave-the-umc/#.Yw174y2B2X0

---

Divorces often start out with both parties' intending it to be amicable and don't end up that way. I fear the property disputes will be contentious.

Our United Methodist minister participated in the conference where the original agreement was hammered out. He would prefer a big tent and an ongoing debate to this agreement, but that ship has sailed.

I find it discouraging that so many Christians devote so much time and energy (and mean-spirited vitriol) to rejecting congregants who share their faith because they are openly gay and want to marry a same-sex partner. The often childless gay members of our church have always served the congregation in myriad ways, including visiting elderly and disabled shut-ins--important work members with children who also worked fulltime didn't have time to do. They are just as deserving of the love of God as anyone else, and in many cases moreso.

---

Nobody is saying a person with same-sex attraction shouldn't be able to go to church. That's not why churches are leaving the UMC and you know it.

You always come on this board and change the subject to virtue signal. For the love of God, please stop.

---

Churches joining the "global" side won't recognize or condone gay marriage or ordain gay ministers.

Being allowed to attend a church where, if you are gay and out of the closet, you're considered a sinner unless you're celibate, isn't much of an accommodation. That recognition is at the root of the split. Churches like the Catholics, where there hasn't been a split, have some tolerant congregations, but the church dogma condemns those congregations along with their gay members. That's how the UMC has operated for the past 30 years.

Christ calls people to live in community. Telling gay people the only way they can live in community without being egregious sinners is to be celibate isn't living in community.

---

Encouraging the drunk to stop buying 40's is loving.

If a person can't live in community with others without getting a dick in their ass then that sounds like a them problem.

---

What people do behind in the privacy of their homes=none of my business and none of yours, and it certainly should be none of your pastor's business/church's business.

I never cease to be amazed at the fascination and lurid detail in which some evangelical men describe sex between men. Your description above is anything but loving; it reflects a seething contempt for gay men based on what you imagine they do.

Don't you have enough faith in God to believe that HE will deal with sinners w/out you casting the first stone (or the umpteenth crude homophobic slur)?

Sorry, everyone, I knew this thread was going off the rails as soon as J.B.K. entered the chat.

JL said:

---

Sorry, everyone, I knew this thread was going off the rails as soon as J.B.K. entered the chat.

---

Dude. You're the one who posted the crude description of what you think gay sex is. That should have no place in a discussion of religion nor should it be on a site affiliated with Baylor. Grow up.

ABC BEAR said:

---

Join a Baptist church and you will never have to deal with internal dissention again.

---