Now look at the administration building occupants. How many are charged with keeping up with state and federal program requirements - meaning compliance reporting? How many bosses does the average classroom teacher have beyond the principals?
How many assistant superintendents are there?
How does the pay of non superintendents in the administration compare to those who are interacting directly with the children?
The bloat is real.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

Out of curiosity, what was the size of your school compared to the size of your kid's school?

I graduated from Midway (old 4A back then) in the late 80's ('88.) We had one principal and two AP's. We did have 4 band directors at the HS, but they also taught JH band. We had one AD and a separate Football coach, that also taught history. I believe that we had two counselors.

For comparison, my kids graduated from (3A/4A) Lorena (the last one 4 years ago.) They have a principal and one AP. Two HS counselors. AD/Football coach who doesn't teach anything else. They do have separate Boy's and Girls coordinators, but that is in addition to their regular coaching/teaching duties - the do receive an extra stipend for those roles. I believe that have a band director and a couple assistants that also work with the junior high students. I wouldn't be surprised if your percussion, woodwind, brass, et. al. do the same as well.

Quite frankly, it sounds like you currently live in a very large school district. I would suggest that if you are truly concerned about the budget and the "bloat" that you inspect the annual budget and determine if you'd like to run for your school board. It could be the beginning of a political career.

Coke Bear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

Out of curiosity, what was the size of your school compared to the size of your kid's school?

I graduated from Midway (old 4A back then) in the late 80's ('88.) We had one principal and two AP's. We did have 4 band directors at the HS, but they also taught JH band. We had one AD and a separate Football coach, that also taught history. I believe that we had two counselors.

For comparison, my kids graduated from (3A/4A) Lorena (the last one 4 years ago.) They have a principal and one AP. Two HS counselors. AD/Football coach who doesn't teach anything else. They do have separate Boy's and Girls coordinators, but that is in addition to their regular coaching/teaching duties - the do receive an extra stipend for those roles. I believe that have a band director and a couple assistants that also work with the junior high students. I wouldn't be surprised if your percussion, woodwind, brass, et. al. do the same as well.

Quite frankly, it sounds like you currently live in a very large school district. I would suggest that if you are truly concerned about the budget and the "bloat" that you inspect the annual budget and determine if you'd like to run for your school board. It could be the beginning of a political career.

---

My high school was about 10% larger than my kids' school.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

Out of curiosity, what was the size of your school compared to the size of your kid's school?

I graduated from Midway (old 4A back then) in the late 80's ('88.) We had one principal and two AP's. We did have 4 band directors at the HS, but they also taught JH band. We had one AD and a separate Football coach, that also taught history. I believe that we had two counselors.

For comparison, my kids graduated from (3A/4A) Lorena (the last one 4 years ago.) They have a principal and one AP. Two HS counselors. AD/Football coach who doesn't teach anything else. They do have separate Boy's and Girls coordinators, but that is in addition to their regular coaching/teaching duties - the do receive an extra stipend for those roles. I believe that have a band director and a couple assistants that also work with the junior high students. I wouldn't be surprised if your percussion, woodwind, brass, et. al. do the same as well.

Quite frankly, it sounds like you currently live in a very large school district. I would suggest that if you are truly concerned about the budget and the "bloat" that you inspect the annual budget and determine if you'd like to run for your school board. It could be the beginning of a political career.

---

My high school was about 10% larger than my kids' school.

---

Fair enough. Times they are a-changin'.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

As to the on-campus AD--isn't it just the football coach? That is the way I have usually seen it?

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

As to the on-campus AD--isn't it just the football coach? That is the way I have usually seen it?

---

A coach - honestly blanking if football ... but it is a full-time job which means he does not teach and requires another headcount. By contrast, when I was in school the head football coach (and all) taught 1-2 sections.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

As to the on-campus AD--isn't it just the football coach? That is the way I have usually seen it?

---

A coach - honestly blanking if football ... but it is a full-time job which means he does not teach and requires another headcount. By contrast, when I was in school the head football coach (and all) taught 1-2 sections.

---

But didn't you find the classes "taught" by the coaches to be the easiest?

GrowlTowel said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

As to the on-campus AD--isn't it just the football coach? That is the way I have usually seen it?

---

A coach - honestly blanking if football ... but it is a full-time job which means he does not teach and requires another headcount. By contrast, when I was in school the head football coach (and all) taught 1-2 sections.

---

But didn't you find the classes "taught" by the coaches to be the easiest?

---

Ours were more like BenStein if they taught history.

GrowlTowel said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

As to the on-campus AD--isn't it just the football coach? That is the way I have usually seen it?

---

A coach - honestly blanking if football ... but it is a full-time job which means he does not teach and requires another headcount. By contrast, when I was in school the head football coach (and all) taught 1-2 sections.

---

But didn't you find the classes "taught" by the coaches to be the easiest?

---

That is the stereotype but my government and history classes where I had coaches as teachers were some of the best I had and instilled a lifelong love of history in me.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

As to the on-campus AD--isn't it just the football coach? That is the way I have usually seen it?

---

A coach - honestly blanking if football ... but it is a full-time job which means he does not teach and requires another headcount. By contrast, when I was in school the head football coach (and all) taught 1-2 sections.

---

Yes, that is nothing new. It is really just a way to get a football coach more money. He gets the stipend for AD on top of coaching. Head coaches at schools 4a or above stopped teaching about 25 years ago.

I would say that issue is separate from the general growth of bureaucracy you describe. It is really just the overemphasis of football causing it.

My belief is that the whole organizational structure is backward. In my world, you take your most talented educators and leaders and make them principals. The district staff is there to serve the principals, not the other way around. The principals are paid like assistant superintendents are now, and assistant superintendents are paid like principals are now. You would have far fewer people wanting to be assistant superintendents. And you would have real leaders where it matters most.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

I agree that ISDs have become bloated in many areas but I would focus more on the admin building than campus level.

For example, you can have the super who has a secretary/administrative assistant. Then multiple assistant sups, each with their own administrative assistant. Then department heads/executive directors, etc. all the way down.

As to the growth on campuses much of that has to do with the growth in requirements/laws since we were in school.

For example, take just an AP. They are in charge of discipline, teacher evaluations, 504, SPED, and ESL meetings. When they have 1000 students discipline alone can be a full time job. And those are just some of their duties. We could discuss all day their requirements and how they are stretched too thin.

The assistant athletic directors were not giving you the full picture of their day to day. They would have a lot more to do than just "attend" games.

The different music teachers listed are because there are that many kids joining the band and orchestra. And those are two different things. So of course you need different teachers for them. Then also you have the issues of state laws about how many kids one teacher can have, in any subject, including athletics, band, etc. So you cannot by law, have one band teacher with 100 band kids in a class.

The increase in coaches is due to the increase in focus on winning. A coach can be fired for their performance on the football field and yet that part of their job only pays about 10% (or less) of their salary.

I do not mean this in a mean way but much of your post sounds very naive or lacking of understanding what people do or what their job is and just thinking "that job has nothing to do" without any knowledge of the job.

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Frank Galvin said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

As to the on-campus AD--isn't it just the football coach? That is the way I have usually seen it?

---

A coach - honestly blanking if football ... but it is a full-time job which means he does not teach and requires another headcount. By contrast, when I was in school the head football coach (and all) taught 1-2 sections.

---

Yes, that is nothing new. It is really just a way to get a football coach more money. He gets the stipend for AD on top of coaching. Head coaches at schools 4a or above stopped teaching about 25 years ago.

I would say that issue is separate from the general growth of bureaucracy you describe. It is really just the overemphasis of football causing it.

My belief is that the whole organizational structure is backward. In my world, you take your most talented educators and leaders and make them principals. The district staff is there to serve the principals, not the other way around. The principals are paid like assistant superintendents are now, and assistant superintendents are paid like principals are now. You would have far fewer people wanting to be assistant superintendents. And you would have real leaders where it matters most.

---

Makes too much sense. Our district has an assistant principal for marketing and a director of communications - I can only imagine what the entire staff in that group is - for one example.

cowboycwr said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

I agree that ISDs have become bloated in many areas but I would focus more on the admin building than campus level.

For example, you can have the super who has a secretary/administrative assistant. Then multiple assistant sups, each with their own administrative assistant. Then department heads/executive directors, etc. all the way down.

As to the growth on campuses much of that has to do with the growth in requirements/laws since we were in school.

For example, take just an AP. They are in charge of discipline, teacher evaluations, 504, SPED, and ESL meetings. When they have 1000 students discipline alone can be a full time job. And those are just some of their duties. We could discuss all day their requirements and how they are stretched too thin.

The assistant athletic directors were not giving you the full picture of their day to day. They would have a lot more to do than just "attend" games.

The different music teachers listed are because there are that many kids joining the band and orchestra. And those are two different things. So of course you need different teachers for them. Then also you have the issues of state laws about how many kids one teacher can have, in any subject, including athletics, band, etc. So you cannot by law, have one band teacher with 100 band kids in a class.

The increase in coaches is due to the increase in focus on winning. A coach can be fired for their performance on the football field and yet that part of their job only pays about 10% (or less) of their salary.

I do not mean this in a mean way but much of your post sounds very naive or lacking of understanding what people do or what their job is and just thinking "that job has nothing to do" without any knowledge of the job.

---

I agree 100% on the administration and the bureaucracy.

Yes, I realize it is a broad brush, but I suspect if you're examined closely a lot of the work is work to work.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

cowboycwr said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Have your ISDs seen the same level of bureaucracy / administrator growth as colleges?

Forgive the "get off my yard," post, but when I was in school we had:
- One high school band director
- One district athletic director
- A couple of assistant principals and a couple of counselors - each had a couple of grades to manage
- for most sports, a head coach and 3-4 assistants

My kids' school in contrast:
- Has on on-campus athletic director, one for men's sports and one for women's sports
- Five district assistant athletic directors (I was at an event and asked the about there day-day, and shocking it was "going to sporting events ... so yes we're paying six-figure salaries to watch high school sports)
- An associate principal plus four assistant principals / campus
- For band, a band director, a percussion teacher, a woodwind teacher, a brass teacher, and a "flag core" director
- Lord knows how many coaches per sport - 4-6 / boy's and girl's team (we had two tennis coaches - my kids' school as two for the boys and two for the girls)

At the end of the day, it's never about spending but budget allocation. The % that useless positions consume continues to harm outcomes.

---

I agree that ISDs have become bloated in many areas but I would focus more on the admin building than campus level.

For example, you can have the super who has a secretary/administrative assistant. Then multiple assistant sups, each with their own administrative assistant. Then department heads/executive directors, etc. all the way down.

As to the growth on campuses much of that has to do with the growth in requirements/laws since we were in school.

For example, take just an AP. They are in charge of discipline, teacher evaluations, 504, SPED, and ESL meetings. When they have 1000 students discipline alone can be a full time job. And those are just some of their duties. We could discuss all day their requirements and how they are stretched too thin.

The assistant athletic directors were not giving you the full picture of their day to day. They would have a lot more to do than just "attend" games.

The different music teachers listed are because there are that many kids joining the band and orchestra. And those are two different things. So of course you need different teachers for them. Then also you have the issues of state laws about how many kids one teacher can have, in any subject, including athletics, band, etc. So you cannot by law, have one band teacher with 100 band kids in a class.

The increase in coaches is due to the increase in focus on winning. A coach can be fired for their performance on the football field and yet that part of their job only pays about 10% (or less) of their salary.

I do not mean this in a mean way but much of your post sounds very naive or lacking of understanding what people do or what their job is and just thinking "that job has nothing to do" without any knowledge of the job.

---

I agree 100% on the administration and the bureaucracy.

Yes, I realize it is a broad brush, but I suspect if you're examined closely a lot of the work is work to work.

---

That can be true for a lot of jobs/careers.

Much of it though is things that are to meet requirements/laws with some added on filler to make the justification for a full time job. Some of it probably also could be combined into one position.

I agree there is much bloating in education at the ISD and university level. Just most of it is in the admin side not the school side.

This is not a joke ...

I learned today that my kids' high school has THREE full-time flag core directors. It literally takes three people to help people walk in a circle and spin a flag.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

This is not a joke ...

I learned today that my kids' high school has THREE full-time flag core directors. It literally takes three people to help people walk in a circle and spin a flag.

---

Out of curiosity, do they teach anything thing else like Dance or Theater?

Have you looked at the bio's on the Teacher web pages to see what else they do?

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

This is not a joke ...

I learned today that my kids' high school has THREE full-time flag core directors. It literally takes three people to help people walk in a circle and spin a flag.

---

How many kids are there?

Are they all truly full time?

Do they teach anything else?

Because those could be factors that require 3 people, justify their positions if they teach other things or they are part time.