Just a question, how many of you think Abraham was Jewish?

I don't really want to spark a discussion yet, so maybe we can just get a poll-like response.

"Jewish" or "Not-Jewish".

Realitybites said:

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Just a question, how many of you think Abraham was Jewish?

I don't really want to spark a discussion yet, so maybe we can just get a poll-like response.

"Jewish" or "Not-Jewish".

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Not Jewish.

Mothra said:

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Abraham was a Hebrew and the founding patriarch of the Jewish people, but scripture never describes him as a Jew. That term came much later to describe descendants of the tribe of Judah.

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That would not be an answer to the question Jewish or Not Jewish.

Realitybites said:

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Mothra said:

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Abraham was a Hebrew and the founding patriarch of the Jewish people, but scripture never describes him as a Jew. That term came much later to describe descendants of the tribe of Judah.

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That would not be an answer to the question Jewish or Not Jewish.

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Why not?

It isn't a gotcha question. It's actually a very simple historical and archeological question to answer. I was curious what people's perspective was.

It's something like asking if we all are related to Jews because of Adam.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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It's something like asking if we all are related to Jews because of Adam.

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It is a specific question about a specific individual. Should be very easy to answer. However some seem not to want to answer it.

Curious.

It is a foolish question that Mothra answered quite well.

Are you related to Jews?

If you think your question is intelligent, try answering this similar one.

EatMoreSalmon said:

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It is a foolish question that Mothra answered quite well.

Are you related to Jews?

If you think your question is intelligent, try answering this similar one.

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Obviously everyone is related to everyone else. Mothra did not answer the question. He also made a historically and archeologically incorrect statement in saying Abraham was a Hebrew.

So back to the original question, was Abraham a Jew?

Few things are as boring, as someone who imagines he is clever.

Realitybites said:

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Mothra said:

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Abraham was a Hebrew and the founding patriarch of the Jewish people, but scripture never describes him as a Jew. That term came much later to describe descendants of the tribe of Judah.

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That would not be an answer to the question Jewish or Not Jewish.

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lol. Sure I did. As others have pointed out, you're just mad because it didn't end up being the gotcha you thought it was going to be and now it's backfired on you.

Amazing how few people are willing to give a straight answer to the simple question "Jewish" or "Not Jewish".

Harrison was the only one so far.

I'll give you a hint. Genesis 18:8.

The only dishonest post I see here is from the guy who got caught posting a gotcha question, and now he is sulking.

Oldbear83 said:

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The only dishonest post I see here is from the guy who got caught posting a gotcha question, and now he is sulking.

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Why won't you answer the question?

Realitybites said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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The only dishonest post I see here is from the guy who got caught posting a gotcha question, and now he is sulking.

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Why won't you answer the question?

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I have answered the topic. You just don't like any answer which does not let you play puppeteer.

Realitybites said:

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EatMoreSalmon said:

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It is a foolish question that Mothra answered quite well.

Are you related to Jews?

If you think your question is intelligent, try answering this similar one.

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Obviously everyone is related to everyone else. Mothra did not answer the question. He also made a historically and archeologically incorrect statement in saying Abraham was a Hebrew.

So back to the original question, was Abraham a Jew?

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Would you ever publicly sing the song "Rock-a My Soul in the Bosom of Abraham" by chance?

Forest Bueller III said:

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Yes and No. He is the Father of many nations, though he was Hebrew.

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Historians mostly consider the Hebrews as synonymous with the Israelites, with the term "Hebrew" denoting an Israelite from the nomadic era, which preceded the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah in the 11th century B. C.

Abraham was from Ur Kasdim, commonly translated Ur of the Chaldees in English Bibles. However the Chaldeans did not occupy that site till 900 B. C., long after Abraham who lived around 2100-1800 B.C.

Ur has been excavated and it is a Sumerian site. Abraham was Sumerian. So although he has been called Hebrew twice, he was factually not Hebrew.

I was hoping to have more people answer the question just to get a sense of what people thought before diving into the historical discussion but we have two honest answers: "No" from Harrison and "Yes and no" from you and three who refuse to answer.

Realitybites said:

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Forest Bueller III said:

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Yes and No. He is the Father of many nations, though he was Hebrew.

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Historians mostly consider the Hebrews as synonymous with the Israelites, with the term "Hebrew" denoting an Israelite from the nomadic era, which preceded the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah in the 11th century B. C.

Abraham was from Ur Kasdim, commonly translated Ur of the Chaldees in English Bibles. However the Chaldeans did not occupy that site till 900 B. C., long after Abraham who lived around 2100-1800 B.C.

Ur has been excavated and it is a Sumerian site. Abraham was Sumerian. So although he has been called Hebrew twice, he was factually not Hebrew.

I was hoping to have more people answer the question just to get a sense of what people thought before diving into the historical discussion but we have two honest answers: "No" from Harrison and "Yes and no" from you and three who refuse to answer.

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Does it matter that he was not? I am a mere Catholic, we didn't do as much Bible study as our Protestant bretheran. But, I thought Israel started with Jacob and the Jews from his son judah. Abraham was the Grandfather of Judaism, but not a Jew since it didn't exist. But, never really went into it.


I like the other question about Christ being a Christian. One step further, would Christ sign on to what we preach as "Christianity"?

Realitybites said:

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Forest Bueller III said:

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Yes and No. He is the Father of many nations, though he was Hebrew.

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Historians mostly consider the Hebrews as synonymous with the Israelites, with the term "Hebrew" denoting an Israelite from the nomadic era, which preceded the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah in the 11th century B. C.

Abraham was from Ur Kasdim, commonly translated Ur of the Chaldees in English Bibles. However the Chaldeans did not occupy that site till 900 B. C., long after Abraham who lived around 2100-1800 B.C.

Ur has been excavated and it is a Sumerian site. Abraham was Sumerian. So although he has been called Hebrew twice, he was factually not Hebrew.

I was hoping to have more people answer the question just to get a sense of what people thought before diving into the historical discussion but we have two honest answers: "No" from Harrison and "Yes and no" from you and three who refuse to answer.

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Here is your problem, Realitybites. No one refused to answer, and all the answers were honest.

You threw out a religious variant of 'have you stopped beating your wife, then got mad everyone recognized it for what it was.

If you really wanted to discuss the history of Abraham and the pre-Chaldean Ur, you could simply have asked for questions about that topic. Instead you tried the stunt we saw in the OP.

Oldbear83 said:

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Here is your problem, Realitybites. No one refused to answer, and all the answers were honest.

You threw out a religious variant of 'have you stopped beating your wife, then got mad everyone recognized it for what it was.

If you really wanted to discuss the history of Abraham and the pre-Chaldean Ur, you could simply have asked for questions about that topic. Instead you tried the stunt we saw in the OP.

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I did want to discuss the history of Abraham and pre-Chaldean Ur, but before getting into that discussion I wanted to get a sense of where everyone stood on the question of whether they thought Abraham was a Jew. I even cited evidence from Genesis that proved that he wasn't.

Yet you, Mothra, and Salmon refused to answer the question and instead (1) chose to talk around the issue and (2) throw out insults.

So do you think that Abraham was a Jew? It's a simple yes or no question about a Sumerian who lived 700 or so years before Moses.

Realitybites said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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Here is your problem, Realitybites. No one refused to answer, and all the answers were honest.

You threw out a religious variant of 'have you stopped beating your wife, then got mad everyone recognized it for what it was.

If you really wanted to discuss the history of Abraham and the pre-Chaldean Ur, you could simply have asked for questions about that topic. Instead you tried the stunt we saw in the OP.

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I did want to discuss the history of Abraham and pre-Chaldean Ur, but before getting into that discussion I wanted to get a sense of where everyone stood on the question of whether they thought Abraham was a Jew. I even cited evidence from Genesis that proved that he wasn't.

Yet you, Mothra, and Salmon refused to answer the question and instead (1) chose to talk around the issue and (2) throw out insults.

So do you think that Abraham was a Jew? It's a simple yes or no question about a Sumerian who lived 700 or so years before Moses.

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No one 'refused to answer'. You need to get off the idea that only answers you like count.

You have been dishonest, then angry. That's not "insults", that's observation.

You cited no such evidence. Genesis 18:8 simply says Abraham was waiting on (serving food to) strangers who came to visit him.

Genuinely, what is the point of this post?

Harrison Bergeron said:

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Genuinely, what is the point of this post?

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I'm not the OP, but I will take a shot as to his motives.

Abraham is the foundational patriarch of all three major monotheistic religions. Both Christianity and Islam have theological motivations to decouple Abraham from an exclusively Jewish identity to establish their own direct, legitimate lines of spiritual inheritance. The Quran specifically states Abraham was neither Jew nor gentile. Using the Bible, it's not the easy yes or no question the OP claims it is. But I don't think he was coming at this from a Christian>Muslim or inerrancy angle.

Arguments asserting that Abraham was not a Jew are sometimes used to challenge the idea of an exclusive Jewish or Israeli historical claim to the Levant. Because Abraham is also the biblical father of Ishmael (ancestor of the Arabs), emphasizing his pre-Jewish, universal identity is used politically to argue for shared or alternative indigenous rights to the region. And since this is the crux of the Israel and Palestine conflict, my guess is he may have been headed there.

Abraham was about 99 years old when he circumcised himself. Heck of a time to remove the hood of Judaism.

I think either yes, or no, would work as an answer depending the viewpoint one takes. It is not a straight forward question. I had read that the name of "Hebrews" came about for the descendants from Eber. Abraham was a decendent of Eber

El Oso said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

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Genuinely, what is the point of this post?

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I'm not the OP, but I will take a shot as to his motives.

Abraham is the foundational patriarch of all three major monotheistic religions. Both Christianity and Islam have theological motivations to decouple Abraham from an exclusively Jewish identity to establish their own direct, legitimate lines of spiritual inheritance. The Quran specifically states Abraham was neither Jew nor gentile. Using the Bible, it's not the easy yes or no question the OP claims it is. But I don't think he was coming at this from a Christian>Muslim or inerrancy angle.

Arguments asserting that Abraham was not a Jew are sometimes used to challenge the idea of an exclusive Jewish or Israeli historical claim to the Levant. Because Abraham is also the biblical father of Ishmael (ancestor of the Arabs), emphasizing his pre-Jewish, universal identity is used politically to argue for shared or alternative indigenous rights to the region. And since this is the crux of the Israel and Palestine conflict, my guess is he may have been headed there.

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Thanks. Seems weird but par for the course eh?

El Oso said:

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You cited no such evidence. Genesis 18:8 simply says Abraham was waiting on (serving food to) strangers who came to visit him.

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What food was he serving to them?

And I have no ulterior motive aside from getting to a historically and archeologically accurate picture of Abraham.

Two thoughts here:

1. You're putting the cart before the horse. Rabbinic law does say these foods were not permitted, but rabbinic law did not exist yet.

2. The text doesn't specifically mention how the food was eaten. A careful reading of the Hebrew text in Genesis 18:8 shows the sequence: "He then brought some curds and milk and [then] the calf..." Abraham served the dairy appetizers first, and by the time the calf was fully cooked and brought out, the dairy portion of the meal was over. This would comply with Jewish dietary law (Halacha) provided mouths were rinsed and hands washed. While the text does leave this out, it is still possible those things occurred but were not recorded.


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