Kenneth Copeland needs private jets to avoid the "demons" who give him money

5,352 Views | 18 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Mitch Blood Green
GoneGirl
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The private jets are "necessary for his work," he says.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/06/04/wealthy-televangelist-explains-his-fleet-private-jets-its-biblical-thing/?fbclid=IwAR1DiUwZhjrZl_WcCMRsh00XFRCE3JZ5ZsmPmGvm1S9rugGCJJmVE-DyR_E&utm_term=.121464eb091e

In the waning days of 2015, renowned televangelist Kenneth Copeland laid out exactly why he needs a luxury private jet to do his job: You can't "talk to God" while flying commercial.

Criticized at the time for his use of extravagant planes, Copeland argued that travel for his work would be difficult, nay, impossible without them. The Texas-based preacher invoked his mentor, prosperity gospel preacher Oral Roberts, who Copeland said faced unsolicited requests for prayer when he flew on public airliners, "agitating his spirit."

"You can't manage that today, in this dope-filled world, get in a long tube with a bunch of demons," Copeland told fellow televangelist Jesse Duplantis, who has faced similar backlash for asking his followers to bankroll a $54 million jet. "And it's deadly."

Copeland's defense, widely mocked and viewed by millions, did little to help his case many figured the "demons" he spoke of were the same people he'd asked for donations. Last month, the preacher was asked to clarify his remarks by Lisa Guerrero, a reporter for news magazine Inside Edition. Their exchange recently went viral, reigniting conversations about televangelists and the tax-exempt status of churches.

Captured on video confronting Copeland as he got into a car, Guerrero pressed him repeatedly on his 2015 comments, at one point asking: "Do you really believe that humans are demons?"

"No, I do not, and don't you ever say I did," Copeland responded, visibly perturbed. He added, "It's a biblical thing, it's a spiritual thing, it doesn't have anything to do with people. People? I love people. Jesus loves people. But people get pushed in alcohol. Do you think that's a good place for a preacher to be and prepare to preach?"

The questioning centered around Copeland's Gulfstream V jet, which he announced he'd purchased from Tyler Perry in January 2018. Declining to state how much he spent on the aircraft, which is one of three in his possession, Copeland said Perry made the plane "so cheap for me I couldn't help but buy it." He again asserted the plane was necessary for his work, which has sent him to nearly every continent and allowed him to spread his message to thousands of people.

"If I flew commercial, I'd have to stop 65 percent of what I'm doing, that's the main reason," he said.

Copeland said he was a "very wealthy man" and acknowledged using the private jets to travel to his vacation homes. Guerrero asked how he would respond to those who say preachers shouldn't live so luxuriously.

"They're wrong," he replied "It's a misunderstanding of the Bible that if you go into the old covenant, do you think the Jewish people believe you should be broke?"

Guerrero follows up: "Are you saying that Jewish people appreciate money more?"

"They believe in wealth," Copeland said.

"Some people would find that offensive," Guerrero responds.

Some took exception to how Copeland addressed Guerrero throughout the interview; he referred to her as "baby" and appeared to dodge one question by complimenting her eyes. He drew passages from the books of Ephesians and Galatians in his various responses and eventually cited Oral Roberts again, who Copeland says "took the same heat for believing God would prosper you."

Like many televangelists, Copeland preaches the "prosperity gospel," which stems from the belief that faith, often in the form of donations to preachers and ministries, will garner riches down the line. HBO's John Oliver spoke at length on televangelism, or as he put it, "churches who exploit people's faith for monetary gain," in a 2015 episode of "Last Week Tonight."

The host illustrated an unmistakable pattern of these television preachers purchasing or asking for donations to buy lavish, high-end jets.

Among the examples were televangelist Creflo Dollar, who was ridiculed in 2015 for asking his followers to raise $65 million for a Gulfstream G650. As The Washington Post's Abby Ohlheiser wrote at the time, Dollar said he "needs one of the most luxurious private jets today in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

"Wait a minute now, I'm not talking about some people," Copeland explains, before mentioning the Abrahamic Blessing. "I'm talking about the Bible."

During the segment, Oliver also played a clip of Mike Murdock, a televangelist who once bragged to his congregation about paying for two Cessna Citation jets, with cash, no less.

"And since there's so much jealousy in this room tonight that I can feel over this, a few weeks later I brought myself another one worth three times what that one was." Murdock said. He paused before appealing to the crowd: "Act happy over my blessing, folks."

Then there's Duplantis, who asked his congregation for $54 million to buy a Falcon 7X jet last year. The Post's Cleve Wootson reported it would have been the fourth plane added to Duplantis's fleet all paid for by his loyal congregation. These preachers claim the jets are essential to spread the good word, and Copeland is no different.

Texas-based Kenneth Copeland Ministries could not be reached for comment Monday. A blog post on its website titled "Glory to God! It's Ours! The Gulfstream V is in our hands!" shows the preacher standing next to his sleek new plane in a bomber jacket. He thanked donors but wrote there was more work to be done: The jet required $2.5 million in upgrades, as well as a new hangar, runway renovations and "special GV maintenance equipment."
Canada2017
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chuckle

Still another thread about religion from our anxiety prone gal who doesn't believe in God .

Gotta luv the internet.
corncob pipe
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righteous bucks
GoneGirl
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The great, sad irony is that Christian conservatives, straining to hold back the rising sea levels of secularism, are actually eroding the faith they think they are saving.

Secular Americans, "nones" and those who identify as spiritual but not religious increasingly perceive American Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity, as the militant wing of the Republican Party and as people who want to send women back to kitchens and birthing rooms, LGBT people back into the dangerous shadows, and immigrants back to their countries of origin.

Their perception isn't wrong. But it's sad because the religion that Jesus taught boils down simply to the inseparable commandments of loving God, loving neighbor, and upholding fairness, equity and dignity that is the birthright of all human beings as fellow children made in the likeness and image of God.

This is authentic Christianity, but it's not the Christianity proclaimed by the loudest Christians, the guys like Kenneth Copeland.

Thanks to the conservatives who want to take what was a social theocracy 100 years ago and turn it into a formalized political theocracy, Christianity is suffering from a massive case of brand confusion, and potential new consumers are rejecting it. American Christianity needs a massive Reformation.
Doc Holliday
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Jinx 2 said:

The great, sad irony is that Christian conservatives, straining to hold back the rising sea levels of secularism, are actually eroding the faith they think they are saving.

Secular Americans, "nones" and those who identify as spiritual but not religious increasingly perceive American Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity, as the militant wing of the Republican Party and as people who want to send women back to kitchens and birthing rooms, LGBT people back into the dangerous shadows, and immigrants back to their countries of origin.

Their perception isn't wrong. But it's sad because the religion that Jesus taught boils down simply to the inseparable commandments of loving God, loving neighbor, and upholding fairness, equity and dignity that is the birthright of all human beings as fellow children made in the likeness and image of God.

This is authentic Christianity, but it's not the Christianity proclaimed by the loudest Christians, the guys like Kenneth Copeland.

Thanks to the conservatives who want to take what was a social theocracy 100 years ago and turn it into a formalized political theocracy, Christianity is suffering from a massive case of brand confusion, and potential new consumers are rejecting it. American Christianity needs a massive Reformation.
American leftism needs massive reformation.

I'm still convinced you're a 400lb feminist whale who bought into radical leftism because deep down you don't want to admit your flaws and would rather blame them on society instead. Conservatives, Republicans and Christians are the perfect boogeyman for you because they promote personal responsibility which you despise: literally everything you post is a situation where you blame society instead of the person.
Forest Bueller
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Jinx 2 said:

The great, sad irony is that Christian conservatives, straining to hold back the rising sea levels of secularism, are actually eroding the faith they think they are saving.

Secular Americans, "nones" and those who identify as spiritual but not religious increasingly perceive American Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity, as the militant wing of the Republican Party and as people who want to send women back to kitchens and birthing rooms, LGBT people back into the dangerous shadows, and immigrants back to their countries of origin.

Their perception isn't wrong. But it's sad because the religion that Jesus taught boils down simply to the inseparable commandments of loving God, loving neighbor, and upholding fairness, equity and dignity that is the birthright of all human beings as fellow children made in the likeness and image of God.

This is authentic Christianity, but it's not the Christianity proclaimed by the loudest Christians, the guys like Kenneth Copeland.

Thanks to the conservatives who want to take what was a social theocracy 100 years ago and turn it into a formalized political theocracy, Christianity is suffering from a massive case of brand confusion, and potential new consumers are rejecting it. American Christianity needs a massive Reformation.
Copeland is not a conservative christian, Copeland is not a christian, he is from the Word of Faith cult movement.

Sure there may be some christians who go to his church, but what their preachers espouse has nothing to do with christianity or Christ. Copeland even proclaims that Jesus is just the first born of many and we can have greater power than him, that he is not deity from the beginning.

Not sure why so many of your posts are now just negative screeds that aren't based in reality.

And, no their perception is wrong. Evangelical christians are the ones doing the work for the poor and giving more to the downtrodden causes than anybody else. Of course the folks you describe never hear that truth, just the lies from the unhinged left. Matter of fact nothing you say in the one paragraph about the "nones" perception is true.



Mothra
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Jinx 2 said:

The private jets are "necessary for his work," he says.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/06/04/wealthy-televangelist-explains-his-fleet-private-jets-its-biblical-thing/?fbclid=IwAR1DiUwZhjrZl_WcCMRsh00XFRCE3JZ5ZsmPmGvm1S9rugGCJJmVE-DyR_E&utm_term=.121464eb091e

In the waning days of 2015, renowned televangelist Kenneth Copeland laid out exactly why he needs a luxury private jet to do his job: You can't "talk to God" while flying commercial.

Criticized at the time for his use of extravagant planes, Copeland argued that travel for his work would be difficult, nay, impossible without them. The Texas-based preacher invoked his mentor, prosperity gospel preacher Oral Roberts, who Copeland said faced unsolicited requests for prayer when he flew on public airliners, "agitating his spirit."

"You can't manage that today, in this dope-filled world, get in a long tube with a bunch of demons," Copeland told fellow televangelist Jesse Duplantis, who has faced similar backlash for asking his followers to bankroll a $54 million jet. "And it's deadly."

Copeland's defense, widely mocked and viewed by millions, did little to help his case many figured the "demons" he spoke of were the same people he'd asked for donations. Last month, the preacher was asked to clarify his remarks by Lisa Guerrero, a reporter for news magazine Inside Edition. Their exchange recently went viral, reigniting conversations about televangelists and the tax-exempt status of churches.

Captured on video confronting Copeland as he got into a car, Guerrero pressed him repeatedly on his 2015 comments, at one point asking: "Do you really believe that humans are demons?"

"No, I do not, and don't you ever say I did," Copeland responded, visibly perturbed. He added, "It's a biblical thing, it's a spiritual thing, it doesn't have anything to do with people. People? I love people. Jesus loves people. But people get pushed in alcohol. Do you think that's a good place for a preacher to be and prepare to preach?"

The questioning centered around Copeland's Gulfstream V jet, which he announced he'd purchased from Tyler Perry in January 2018. Declining to state how much he spent on the aircraft, which is one of three in his possession, Copeland said Perry made the plane "so cheap for me I couldn't help but buy it." He again asserted the plane was necessary for his work, which has sent him to nearly every continent and allowed him to spread his message to thousands of people.

"If I flew commercial, I'd have to stop 65 percent of what I'm doing, that's the main reason," he said.

Copeland said he was a "very wealthy man" and acknowledged using the private jets to travel to his vacation homes. Guerrero asked how he would respond to those who say preachers shouldn't live so luxuriously.

"They're wrong," he replied "It's a misunderstanding of the Bible that if you go into the old covenant, do you think the Jewish people believe you should be broke?"

Guerrero follows up: "Are you saying that Jewish people appreciate money more?"

"They believe in wealth," Copeland said.

"Some people would find that offensive," Guerrero responds.

Some took exception to how Copeland addressed Guerrero throughout the interview; he referred to her as "baby" and appeared to dodge one question by complimenting her eyes. He drew passages from the books of Ephesians and Galatians in his various responses and eventually cited Oral Roberts again, who Copeland says "took the same heat for believing God would prosper you."

Like many televangelists, Copeland preaches the "prosperity gospel," which stems from the belief that faith, often in the form of donations to preachers and ministries, will garner riches down the line. HBO's John Oliver spoke at length on televangelism, or as he put it, "churches who exploit people's faith for monetary gain," in a 2015 episode of "Last Week Tonight."

The host illustrated an unmistakable pattern of these television preachers purchasing or asking for donations to buy lavish, high-end jets.

Among the examples were televangelist Creflo Dollar, who was ridiculed in 2015 for asking his followers to raise $65 million for a Gulfstream G650. As The Washington Post's Abby Ohlheiser wrote at the time, Dollar said he "needs one of the most luxurious private jets today in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

"Wait a minute now, I'm not talking about some people," Copeland explains, before mentioning the Abrahamic Blessing. "I'm talking about the Bible."

During the segment, Oliver also played a clip of Mike Murdock, a televangelist who once bragged to his congregation about paying for two Cessna Citation jets, with cash, no less.

"And since there's so much jealousy in this room tonight that I can feel over this, a few weeks later I brought myself another one worth three times what that one was." Murdock said. He paused before appealing to the crowd: "Act happy over my blessing, folks."

Then there's Duplantis, who asked his congregation for $54 million to buy a Falcon 7X jet last year. The Post's Cleve Wootson reported it would have been the fourth plane added to Duplantis's fleet all paid for by his loyal congregation. These preachers claim the jets are essential to spread the good word, and Copeland is no different.

Texas-based Kenneth Copeland Ministries could not be reached for comment Monday. A blog post on its website titled "Glory to God! It's Ours! The Gulfstream V is in our hands!" shows the preacher standing next to his sleek new plane in a bomber jacket. He thanked donors but wrote there was more work to be done: The jet required $2.5 million in upgrades, as well as a new hangar, runway renovations and "special GV maintenance equipment."
I actually agree with you that the close association that some prominent evangelicals (this does not include Dollar or Copeland, who aren't even Christian) have made with political figures has been a hindrance to the faith. I think Franklin Graham, for instance, so closely aligning himself with Trump and calling for Christians to pray for his enemies was a mistake. His dad reached a multitude of people all across the political spectrum by refraining from aligning with political figures. He made the mistake on a handful of occasions in his life, and admitted his regret for having done so. Franklin seems to have ignored his dad's example, and appears to like to jump into the political fray. I think that is a mistake, even if I am more closely aligned with his politics. It gives the impression that he ignores or even condones some of worse aspects of Trump's behavior. Although I voted for Trump, and will do so again if he runs again, I view him in the same way as Ann Coulter - a guy with huge character flaws that I personally dislike, but will vote for because I think his political positions are better for our country than the alternative. In no way do I believe he is a Christian.

That said, I don't think evangelicals in and of themselves are a problem, nor do I think the positions they take are the issue. It comes as no surprise that you believe evangelicals should evolve in their understanding of scripture on certain issues, such as gay marriage. However, studies have shown that it is denominations with an evolving "understanding" on issues such as gay marriage are the denominations losing the most people, while evangelical, non-denominational churches have been shown to be increasing in numbers. To me, it is no surprise that those who are preaching the word of God are increasing in number, while those who are not are losing people in droves (see the Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.).
BaylorOkie
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Great post. This is why you are one of the best here. I agree completely on Graham.

I'm not going to take the time to read this thread. I only read yours and FB's posts. I will just say it comes as a surprise to no one that Jinx once again uses an extreme nut job who is a 1. man, and 2. "christian" (both things that she hates), and projects him onto an entire faith filled with wonderful people around the world.

This board sees right through it. It's a tired act.

Forest Bueller
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Mothra said:

Jinx 2 said:

The private jets are "necessary for his work," he says.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/06/04/wealthy-televangelist-explains-his-fleet-private-jets-its-biblical-thing/?fbclid=IwAR1DiUwZhjrZl_WcCMRsh00XFRCE3JZ5ZsmPmGvm1S9rugGCJJmVE-DyR_E&utm_term=.121464eb091e

In the waning days of 2015, renowned televangelist Kenneth Copeland laid out exactly why he needs a luxury private jet to do his job: You can't "talk to God" while flying commercial.

Criticized at the time for his use of extravagant planes, Copeland argued that travel for his work would be difficult, nay, impossible without them. The Texas-based preacher invoked his mentor, prosperity gospel preacher Oral Roberts, who Copeland said faced unsolicited requests for prayer when he flew on public airliners, "agitating his spirit."

"You can't manage that today, in this dope-filled world, get in a long tube with a bunch of demons," Copeland told fellow televangelist Jesse Duplantis, who has faced similar backlash for asking his followers to bankroll a $54 million jet. "And it's deadly."

Copeland's defense, widely mocked and viewed by millions, did little to help his case many figured the "demons" he spoke of were the same people he'd asked for donations. Last month, the preacher was asked to clarify his remarks by Lisa Guerrero, a reporter for news magazine Inside Edition. Their exchange recently went viral, reigniting conversations about televangelists and the tax-exempt status of churches.

Captured on video confronting Copeland as he got into a car, Guerrero pressed him repeatedly on his 2015 comments, at one point asking: "Do you really believe that humans are demons?"

"No, I do not, and don't you ever say I did," Copeland responded, visibly perturbed. He added, "It's a biblical thing, it's a spiritual thing, it doesn't have anything to do with people. People? I love people. Jesus loves people. But people get pushed in alcohol. Do you think that's a good place for a preacher to be and prepare to preach?"

The questioning centered around Copeland's Gulfstream V jet, which he announced he'd purchased from Tyler Perry in January 2018. Declining to state how much he spent on the aircraft, which is one of three in his possession, Copeland said Perry made the plane "so cheap for me I couldn't help but buy it." He again asserted the plane was necessary for his work, which has sent him to nearly every continent and allowed him to spread his message to thousands of people.

"If I flew commercial, I'd have to stop 65 percent of what I'm doing, that's the main reason," he said.

Copeland said he was a "very wealthy man" and acknowledged using the private jets to travel to his vacation homes. Guerrero asked how he would respond to those who say preachers shouldn't live so luxuriously.

"They're wrong," he replied "It's a misunderstanding of the Bible that if you go into the old covenant, do you think the Jewish people believe you should be broke?"

Guerrero follows up: "Are you saying that Jewish people appreciate money more?"

"They believe in wealth," Copeland said.

"Some people would find that offensive," Guerrero responds.

Some took exception to how Copeland addressed Guerrero throughout the interview; he referred to her as "baby" and appeared to dodge one question by complimenting her eyes. He drew passages from the books of Ephesians and Galatians in his various responses and eventually cited Oral Roberts again, who Copeland says "took the same heat for believing God would prosper you."

Like many televangelists, Copeland preaches the "prosperity gospel," which stems from the belief that faith, often in the form of donations to preachers and ministries, will garner riches down the line. HBO's John Oliver spoke at length on televangelism, or as he put it, "churches who exploit people's faith for monetary gain," in a 2015 episode of "Last Week Tonight."

The host illustrated an unmistakable pattern of these television preachers purchasing or asking for donations to buy lavish, high-end jets.

Among the examples were televangelist Creflo Dollar, who was ridiculed in 2015 for asking his followers to raise $65 million for a Gulfstream G650. As The Washington Post's Abby Ohlheiser wrote at the time, Dollar said he "needs one of the most luxurious private jets today in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

"Wait a minute now, I'm not talking about some people," Copeland explains, before mentioning the Abrahamic Blessing. "I'm talking about the Bible."

During the segment, Oliver also played a clip of Mike Murdock, a televangelist who once bragged to his congregation about paying for two Cessna Citation jets, with cash, no less.

"And since there's so much jealousy in this room tonight that I can feel over this, a few weeks later I brought myself another one worth three times what that one was." Murdock said. He paused before appealing to the crowd: "Act happy over my blessing, folks."

Then there's Duplantis, who asked his congregation for $54 million to buy a Falcon 7X jet last year. The Post's Cleve Wootson reported it would have been the fourth plane added to Duplantis's fleet all paid for by his loyal congregation. These preachers claim the jets are essential to spread the good word, and Copeland is no different.

Texas-based Kenneth Copeland Ministries could not be reached for comment Monday. A blog post on its website titled "Glory to God! It's Ours! The Gulfstream V is in our hands!" shows the preacher standing next to his sleek new plane in a bomber jacket. He thanked donors but wrote there was more work to be done: The jet required $2.5 million in upgrades, as well as a new hangar, runway renovations and "special GV maintenance equipment."
I actually agree with you that the close association that some prominent evangelicals (this does not include Dollar or Copeland, who aren't even Christian) have made with political figures has been a hindrance to the faith. I think Franklin Graham, for instance, so closely aligning himself with Trump and calling for Christians to pray for his enemies was a mistake. His dad reached a multitude of people all across the political spectrum by refraining from aligning with political figures. He made the mistake on a handful of occasions in his life, and admitted his regret for having done so. Franklin seems to have ignored his dad's example, and appears to like to jump into the political fray. I think that is a mistake, even if I am more closely aligned with his politics. It gives the impression that he ignores or even condones some of worse aspects of Trump's behavior. Although I voted for Trump, and will do so again if he runs again, I view him in the same way as Ann Coulter - a guy with huge character flaws that I personally dislike, but will vote for because I think his political positions are better for our country than the alternative. In no way do I believe he is a Christian.

That said, I don't think evangelicals in and of themselves are a problem, nor do I think the positions they take are the issue. It comes as no surprise that you believe evangelicals should evolve in their understanding of scripture on certain issues, such as gay marriage. However, studies have shown that it is denominations with an evolving "understanding" on issues such as gay marriage are the denominations losing the most people, while evangelical, non-denominational churches have been shown to be increasing in numbers. To me, it is no surprise that those who are preaching the word of God are increasing in number, while those who are not are losing people in droves (see the Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.).
Just like the guy that just said a "prayer" at Baylor graduation, which was more a political statement than a prayer, there are also several on the right spectrum, such as Jefferess, who are also politician preachers. My advise as a christian is to stay away from politician preachers. At least on the right, they are by far the minority, steer clear.

I've been at my current church 2 1/2 years now. Have not heard the name Trump once, have not heard a right leaning political screed once.

Copeland I've heard is worth $750 million and I would even guess he is even hiding some of his empire, it's hard to track non-taxable entities. He is in for a rude awakening..
xiledinok
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He's come up with his "Jets for Jesus" program to help his ministry.
Osodecentx
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Jinx 2 said:

The great, sad irony is that Christian conservatives, straining to hold back the rising sea levels of secularism, are actually eroding the faith they think they are saving.

Secular Americans, "nones" and those who identify as spiritual but not religious increasingly perceive American Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity, as the militant wing of the Republican Party and as people who want to send women back to kitchens and birthing rooms, LGBT people back into the dangerous shadows, and immigrants back to their countries of origin.

Their perception isn't wrong. But it's sad because the religion that Jesus taught boils down simply to the inseparable commandments of loving God, loving neighbor, and upholding fairness, equity and dignity that is the birthright of all human beings as fellow children made in the likeness and image of God.

This is authentic Christianity, but it's not the Christianity proclaimed by the loudest Christians, the guys like Kenneth Copeland.

Thanks to the conservatives who want to take what was a social theocracy 100 years ago and turn it into a formalized political theocracy, Christianity is suffering from a massive case of brand confusion, and potential new consumers are rejecting it. American Christianity needs a massive Reformation.
I suspect you and Copeland will meet someday
GoneGirl
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Osodecentx said:

Jinx 2 said:

The great, sad irony is that Christian conservatives, straining to hold back the rising sea levels of secularism, are actually eroding the faith they think they are saving.

Secular Americans, "nones" and those who identify as spiritual but not religious increasingly perceive American Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity, as the militant wing of the Republican Party and as people who want to send women back to kitchens and birthing rooms, LGBT people back into the dangerous shadows, and immigrants back to their countries of origin.

Their perception isn't wrong. But it's sad because the religion that Jesus taught boils down simply to the inseparable commandments of loving God, loving neighbor, and upholding fairness, equity and dignity that is the birthright of all human beings as fellow children made in the likeness and image of God.

This is authentic Christianity, but it's not the Christianity proclaimed by the loudest Christians, the guys like Kenneth Copeland.

Thanks to the conservatives who want to take what was a social theocracy 100 years ago and turn it into a formalized political theocracy, Christianity is suffering from a massive case of brand confusion, and potential new consumers are rejecting it. American Christianity needs a massive Reformation.
I suspect you and Copeland will meet someday
See you there. Not sure which of us will be more surprised. Probably you.
Osodecentx
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Jinx 2 said:

Osodecentx said:

Jinx 2 said:

The great, sad irony is that Christian conservatives, straining to hold back the rising sea levels of secularism, are actually eroding the faith they think they are saving.

Secular Americans, "nones" and those who identify as spiritual but not religious increasingly perceive American Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity, as the militant wing of the Republican Party and as people who want to send women back to kitchens and birthing rooms, LGBT people back into the dangerous shadows, and immigrants back to their countries of origin.

Their perception isn't wrong. But it's sad because the religion that Jesus taught boils down simply to the inseparable commandments of loving God, loving neighbor, and upholding fairness, equity and dignity that is the birthright of all human beings as fellow children made in the likeness and image of God.

This is authentic Christianity, but it's not the Christianity proclaimed by the loudest Christians, the guys like Kenneth Copeland.

Thanks to the conservatives who want to take what was a social theocracy 100 years ago and turn it into a formalized political theocracy, Christianity is suffering from a massive case of brand confusion, and potential new consumers are rejecting it. American Christianity needs a massive Reformation.
I suspect you and Copeland will meet someday
See you there. Not sure which of us will be more surprised. Probably you.
God only knows
robby44
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Hush little baby don't cry like that
God's gonna buy you a Cadillac
He's chosen you to do his will
You can spread the word in your coupe de ville

So jump in the river and learn to swim
God's gonna wash away all your sins
And if you still can't see the light
God's gonna buy you a satellite
Sam Lowry
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Mothra said:

Jinx 2 said:

The private jets are "necessary for his work," he says.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/06/04/wealthy-televangelist-explains-his-fleet-private-jets-its-biblical-thing/?fbclid=IwAR1DiUwZhjrZl_WcCMRsh00XFRCE3JZ5ZsmPmGvm1S9rugGCJJmVE-DyR_E&utm_term=.121464eb091e

In the waning days of 2015, renowned televangelist Kenneth Copeland laid out exactly why he needs a luxury private jet to do his job: You can't "talk to God" while flying commercial.

Criticized at the time for his use of extravagant planes, Copeland argued that travel for his work would be difficult, nay, impossible without them. The Texas-based preacher invoked his mentor, prosperity gospel preacher Oral Roberts, who Copeland said faced unsolicited requests for prayer when he flew on public airliners, "agitating his spirit."

"You can't manage that today, in this dope-filled world, get in a long tube with a bunch of demons," Copeland told fellow televangelist Jesse Duplantis, who has faced similar backlash for asking his followers to bankroll a $54 million jet. "And it's deadly."

Copeland's defense, widely mocked and viewed by millions, did little to help his case many figured the "demons" he spoke of were the same people he'd asked for donations. Last month, the preacher was asked to clarify his remarks by Lisa Guerrero, a reporter for news magazine Inside Edition. Their exchange recently went viral, reigniting conversations about televangelists and the tax-exempt status of churches.

Captured on video confronting Copeland as he got into a car, Guerrero pressed him repeatedly on his 2015 comments, at one point asking: "Do you really believe that humans are demons?"

"No, I do not, and don't you ever say I did," Copeland responded, visibly perturbed. He added, "It's a biblical thing, it's a spiritual thing, it doesn't have anything to do with people. People? I love people. Jesus loves people. But people get pushed in alcohol. Do you think that's a good place for a preacher to be and prepare to preach?"

The questioning centered around Copeland's Gulfstream V jet, which he announced he'd purchased from Tyler Perry in January 2018. Declining to state how much he spent on the aircraft, which is one of three in his possession, Copeland said Perry made the plane "so cheap for me I couldn't help but buy it." He again asserted the plane was necessary for his work, which has sent him to nearly every continent and allowed him to spread his message to thousands of people.

"If I flew commercial, I'd have to stop 65 percent of what I'm doing, that's the main reason," he said.

Copeland said he was a "very wealthy man" and acknowledged using the private jets to travel to his vacation homes. Guerrero asked how he would respond to those who say preachers shouldn't live so luxuriously.

"They're wrong," he replied "It's a misunderstanding of the Bible that if you go into the old covenant, do you think the Jewish people believe you should be broke?"

Guerrero follows up: "Are you saying that Jewish people appreciate money more?"

"They believe in wealth," Copeland said.

"Some people would find that offensive," Guerrero responds.

Some took exception to how Copeland addressed Guerrero throughout the interview; he referred to her as "baby" and appeared to dodge one question by complimenting her eyes. He drew passages from the books of Ephesians and Galatians in his various responses and eventually cited Oral Roberts again, who Copeland says "took the same heat for believing God would prosper you."

Like many televangelists, Copeland preaches the "prosperity gospel," which stems from the belief that faith, often in the form of donations to preachers and ministries, will garner riches down the line. HBO's John Oliver spoke at length on televangelism, or as he put it, "churches who exploit people's faith for monetary gain," in a 2015 episode of "Last Week Tonight."

The host illustrated an unmistakable pattern of these television preachers purchasing or asking for donations to buy lavish, high-end jets.

Among the examples were televangelist Creflo Dollar, who was ridiculed in 2015 for asking his followers to raise $65 million for a Gulfstream G650. As The Washington Post's Abby Ohlheiser wrote at the time, Dollar said he "needs one of the most luxurious private jets today in order to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

"Wait a minute now, I'm not talking about some people," Copeland explains, before mentioning the Abrahamic Blessing. "I'm talking about the Bible."

During the segment, Oliver also played a clip of Mike Murdock, a televangelist who once bragged to his congregation about paying for two Cessna Citation jets, with cash, no less.

"And since there's so much jealousy in this room tonight that I can feel over this, a few weeks later I brought myself another one worth three times what that one was." Murdock said. He paused before appealing to the crowd: "Act happy over my blessing, folks."

Then there's Duplantis, who asked his congregation for $54 million to buy a Falcon 7X jet last year. The Post's Cleve Wootson reported it would have been the fourth plane added to Duplantis's fleet all paid for by his loyal congregation. These preachers claim the jets are essential to spread the good word, and Copeland is no different.

Texas-based Kenneth Copeland Ministries could not be reached for comment Monday. A blog post on its website titled "Glory to God! It's Ours! The Gulfstream V is in our hands!" shows the preacher standing next to his sleek new plane in a bomber jacket. He thanked donors but wrote there was more work to be done: The jet required $2.5 million in upgrades, as well as a new hangar, runway renovations and "special GV maintenance equipment."
I actually agree with you that the close association that some prominent evangelicals (this does not include Dollar or Copeland, who aren't even Christian) have made with political figures has been a hindrance to the faith. I think Franklin Graham, for instance, so closely aligning himself with Trump and calling for Christians to pray for his enemies was a mistake. His dad reached a multitude of people all across the political spectrum by refraining from aligning with political figures. He made the mistake on a handful of occasions in his life, and admitted his regret for having done so. Franklin seems to have ignored his dad's example, and appears to like to jump into the political fray. I think that is a mistake, even if I am more closely aligned with his politics. It gives the impression that he ignores or even condones some of worse aspects of Trump's behavior. Although I voted for Trump, and will do so again if he runs again, I view him in the same way as Ann Coulter - a guy with huge character flaws that I personally dislike, but will vote for because I think his political positions are better for our country than the alternative. In no way do I believe he is a Christian.

That said, I don't think evangelicals in and of themselves are a problem, nor do I think the positions they take are the issue. It comes as no surprise that you believe evangelicals should evolve in their understanding of scripture on certain issues, such as gay marriage. However, studies have shown that it is denominations with an evolving "understanding" on issues such as gay marriage are the denominations losing the most people, while evangelical, non-denominational churches have been shown to be increasing in numbers. To me, it is no surprise that those who are preaching the word of God are increasing in number, while those who are not are losing people in droves (see the Presbyterians, Methodists, etc.).
The world will always do secularism better than the church does.

Good to see you posting.
midgett
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People who believe Copeland is a Christian, even a crooked Christian, likely don't understand Christianity.

It's not to say there aren't some very wayward Christians. I'm fact, we are all wayward in some manner.

Perhaps, jinx, it's why you left the scene.
william
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where Jesus saves!
arbyscoin - the only crypto you can eat.
midgett
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Copeland is to Christianity as Gore is to climate change.

They preach on a topic as they live in opposition to their own preaching while obscenely enriching themselves.

Jinx, do you use ANY plastic? Do you a gas-powered auto? Do you fly anywhere? Do you use any products that do any of the above to source raw materials, transport them to a plant, manufacture them and deliver them to a retailer? If you do, for as much as you preach and rant on climate change, you are a hypocrite on a somewhat lesser scale as Copeland. Lesser but still similar.
JXL
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You weren't confusing Kenneth Copeland with an actual Christian, were you?

https://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/2014/03/05/kenneth-copeland-is-a-false-teacher-and-a-heretic/

Mitch Blood Green
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xiledinok said:

He's come up with his "Jets for Jesus" program to help his ministry.


Have you seen the Jets play? Even Jesus would prefer Bears or Patriots for Jesus over the Jets Or Giants.
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