montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

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I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed?

---

Not only coordinators, but there are some real good Coaches at D2 that would love to get a shot at a P5 program.

FLBear5630 said:

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montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

---

I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed?

---

Not only coordinators, but there are some real good Coaches at D2 that would love to get a shot at a P5 program.

---

KSU picked Klieman right out of the FCS and that seems to be going quite well for them. Klieman's teams dominated the FCS for 5 years and I did not view his hire as a big risk, but a small one.

montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

---

I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

That may be the case. However, I find it hard to believe that our search was limited to coordinators with no HC experience.

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed to replace Rhule?

---

Justin Fuente, Billy Napier and Joey. Nine months after Aranda was hired Fuente snapped VT's 29-year bowl streak, Napier has been a disaster at Florida and the jury is all the way out on Joey still, so it's not like we even interviewed any can't-miss guys either, even if two of the three did have HC experience.

parch said:

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montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

---

I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

That may be the case. However, I find it hard to believe that our search was limited to coordinators with no HC experience.

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed to replace Rhule?

---

Justin Fuente, Billy Napier and Joey. Nine months after Aranda was hired Fuente snapped VT's 29-year bowl streak, Napier has been a disaster at Florida and the jury is all the way out on Joey still, so it's not like we even interviewed any can't-miss guys either, even if two of the three did have HC experience.

---

There is no such thing as a can't miss guy. It is about fit. Rich Rod could win at WVU and Az, he fit and the program was behind him. Michigan was a disaster, they didn't want him there or to succeed. Good coach at numerous stops, did he all of a sudden forget how to Coach? There are hundreds of other examples, coaches killing it at one school and looking like disasters at the next one.

Teaff and Briles were fits and had the BU community and HS coaches behind them. Aranda, seems to walk to his own drummer and really doesn't care if the BU community is behind him. Great for him as a human being, not so much for a winning football program.

montypython said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

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I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed?

---

Not only coordinators, but there are some real good Coaches at D2 that would love to get a shot at a P5 program.

---

KSU picked Klieman right out of the FCS and that seems to be going quite well for them. Klieman's teams dominated the FCS for 5 years and I did not view his hire as a big risk, but a small one.

---

Hell, one of them just beat us on Saturday. Leipold is a former FCS guy as well.

This is an interesting stat on that.

Of the 20 lower-level head coaches hired from 2010 to '19, less than a third (six) were fired within four years. Most of the others either succeeded and moved up or remain in the same job years later. Over that same span, 42 percent of all first-time head coaches hired by FBS programs were fired within four years.

parch said:

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montypython said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

---

I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed?

---

Not only coordinators, but there are some real good Coaches at D2 that would love to get a shot at a P5 program.

---

KSU picked Klieman right out of the FCS and that seems to be going quite well for them. Klieman's teams dominated the FCS for 5 years and I did not view his hire as a big risk, but a small one.

---

Hell, one of them just beat us on Saturday. Leipold is a former FCS guy as well.

This is an interesting stat on that.

Of the 20 lower-level head coaches hired from 2010 to '19, less than a third (six) were fired within four years. Most of the others either succeeded and moved up or remain in the same job years later. Over that same span, 42 percent of all first-time head coaches hired by FBS programs were fired within four years.

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That is interesting.

parch said:

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montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

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I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

That may be the case. However, I find it hard to believe that our search was limited to coordinators with no HC experience.

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed to replace Rhule?

---

Justin Fuente, Billy Napier and Joey. Nine months after Aranda was hired Fuente snapped VT's 29-year bowl streak, Napier has been a disaster at Florida and the jury is all the way out on Joey still, so it's not like we even interviewed any can't-miss guys either, even if two of the three did have HC experience.

---

Gotcha.

If things derail over the next 12-14 months, the good news is that there should be a healthy pool of HC's to interview with. I guess the bad news is we may not be able to get out from this contract.

From what I read WVU has been in the same boat with Neal. They cannot afford to dump him because of his contract.

montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

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I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed to replace Rhule?

---

I see what you did there

parch said:

---

montypython said:

---

PartyBear said:

---

I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

That may be the case. However, I find it hard to believe that our search was limited to coordinators with no HC experience.

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed to replace Rhule?

---

Justin Fuente, Billy Napier and Joey. Nine months after Aranda was hired Fuente snapped VT's 29-year bowl streak, Napier has been a disaster at Florida and the jury is all the way out on Joey still, so it's not like we even interviewed any can't-miss guys either, even if two of the three did have HC experience.

---

Fuente got undermined badly at Virginia Tech. ESPN did a big story on it. It was a classic example of why you don't ever want to be the guy to follow a legend.

parch said:

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montypython said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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montypython said:

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PartyBear said:

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I think some of y'all tend to forget the actual predicament Rhule put Rhoades in. Rhule left in mid January, which might as well be the end of May of a year frankly especially in the modern world where the coaching transition season is over and everyone is set in their new jobs or jobs period by early December. There is really is no choice but to try to hire the best coordinator out there as your HC at that point and then the new guy (in Aranda's defense) has a hell of a time putting a staff together when he starts around the 3rd week of January.

---

Who were the coaches that Choades interviewed?

---

Not only coordinators, but there are some real good Coaches at D2 that would love to get a shot at a P5 program.

---

KSU picked Klieman right out of the FCS and that seems to be going quite well for them. Klieman's teams dominated the FCS for 5 years and I did not view his hire as a big risk, but a small one.

---

Hell, one of them just beat us on Saturday. Leipold is a former FCS guy as well.

This is an interesting stat on that.

Of the 20 lower-level head coaches hired from 2010 to '19, less than a third (six) were fired within four years. Most of the others either succeeded and moved up or remain in the same job years later. Over that same span, 42 percent of all first-time head coaches hired by FBS programs were fired within four years.

---

My mind goes in different directions with that.
Teams like Kansas and KSU dip down to FCS. Is that because the pressure to succeed isn't the same vs. a place like Oklahoma? Or perhaps, most FBS schools are looking at the wrong criteria when choosing their coaches? I think too many schools confuse being part of a winner with creating a winner.

For me it's about proving that you created a winning program - lots of wins and preferably a conference championship.
-Briles won the conference at UH before we hired him.
-Klieman dominated the FCS for 4-5 years.
-Rhule took a **** Temple team and made then into a conference champion.
-Aranda was a DC on a title winning team. On the surface that may appear to be a good hire- but there is a big difference between constructing a winner and being part of one.

chris klieman came to k-state not only because of his stellar ndsu record but more importantly because k-state's a.d. gene taylor hired him while at fargo. they are brothers by different mothers.

there were several candidates including then a hot name at north texas, seth littrell, as well as oregon d'coordinator jim leavitt who had served under bill snyder previously. snyder of course wanted his son, sean, named. brent venables declined any interest in the job. many youngsters up here were disappointed in the klieman hire. their pie-holes are quiet on the matter presently.

i believe ku benchmarked k-state with the lance liepold hire. it was solid. but their field of candidates was also pretty small.

tmcats said:

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chris klieman came to k-state not only because of his stellar ndsu record but more importantly because k-state's a.d. gene taylor hired him while at fargo. they are brothers by different mothers.

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Right. I think the NDSU ties is a big reason why he brought Klieman over. It was a smart move.

Thomas Hammock is paid about 500k at Northern Illinois.
They've won at Georgia Tech, and at BC last Saturday.
I think they have the lowest FBS home attendance average, 9,100.

montypython said:

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tmcats said:

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chris klieman came to k-state not only because of his stellar ndsu record but more importantly because k-state's a.d. gene taylor hired him while at fargo. they are brothers by different mothers.

---

Right. When the NDSU AD went to KSU, he brought Klieman with him. It was a smart move.

---

that's not quite right. gene taylor had left ndsu and was an assistant a.d. at iowa for a time when hired by k-state. he later terminated bill snyder and brought chris klieman down from fargo.

tmcats said:

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montypython said:

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tmcats said:

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chris klieman came to k-state not only because of his stellar ndsu record but more importantly because k-state's a.d. gene taylor hired him while at fargo. they are brothers by different mothers.

---

Right. I think the NDSU ties is a big reason why he brought Klieman over. It was a smart move.

---

that's not quite right. gene taylor had left ndsu and was an assistant a.d. at iowa for a time when hired by k-state. he later terminated bill snyder and brought chris klieman down from fargo.

---

Right, it wasn't all done the same year.

Terminated doesn't sound quite right. Unless he was allowed to "retire" and save face.

montypython said:

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tmcats said:

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montypython said:

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tmcats said:

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chris klieman came to k-state not only because of his stellar ndsu record but more importantly because k-state's a.d. gene taylor hired him while at fargo. they are brothers by different mothers.

---

Right. I think the NDSU ties is a big reason why he brought Klieman over. It was a smart move.

---

that's not quite right. gene taylor had left ndsu and was an assistant a.d. at iowa for a time when hired by k-state. he later terminated bill snyder and brought chris klieman down from fargo.

---

Right, it wasn't all done the same year.

Terminated doesn't sound quite right. Unless he was allowed to "retire" and save face.

---

snyder wrote in his autobiography that gene taylor and k-state's president at the time asked him at season's close if the time had arrived for him to step down? after a long period of silence, he agreed. call that what you will.



can someone here put in cliff notes fashion what has happened to baylor football? i don't get it but am not close enough to understand.

ilikebu said:

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Thomas Hammock is paid about 500k at Northern Illinois.
They've won at Georgia Tech, and at BC last Saturday.
I think they have the lowest FBS home attendance average, 9,100.

---

There's been guys that have gone through N. Illinois and done much better.

Fre3dombear said:

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Never been impressed with this wide zone offense. Watched half the 4th q of toad chokers and buffs and wow it was awesome and didn't hold a candle to a decade of baylor.

But all signs point to my handicap going lower

---

Why we insist on a sleepy offense instead of a wide open one (that most Texas High Schools run) is one of life's great mysteries.

ilikebu said:

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Thomas Hammock is paid about 500k at Northern Illinois.
They've won at Georgia Tech, and at BC last Saturday.
I think they have the lowest FBS home attendance average, 9,100.

---

Dave Doeren was 23-4 from 2011-2012.
He's at NC State now. Presumed salary of five million.

montypython said:

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Bearwhiz said:

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montypython said:

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Bearwhiz said:

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RightRevBear said:

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Since 1960, Baylor has had three good head coaches Teaff, Briles, and Rhule. Teaff and Briles were ensconced in Texas football. Rhule took a program that had imploded and made it a contender again in a few short years. He was not a Texas football guy, but he hired a lot of them (McGuire, Wetzel, and Bell).

We need to hire a coach that is a Texas football coach. We can't out recruit Texas and A&M. Even at our pinnacle under Briles we struggled to beat them out for recruits even though we were winning the conference. NIL just makes it harder. We won by finding the guys from the small towns that were overlooked. The guys who were raw and needed development. We scouted better and developed better. We also found a system that let us take athletes that were not as good on paper and turn them into stars.

---

Rhule lived off of Briles foundation. We will see how he does at Nebraska

---

I've had to edit this a couple times because I'm trying to be civil. Here goes..

Your statement is about as far from reality as one can get.

---

we went 6-6 the year after Briles and would have won more if the administration did publish that crap the day before the Texas game.

Rhule was able sustain what Briles built. Rhule did a good job of building our defense back up. His O was serviceable. I think if he stayed we would be in better shape than we are now.

He needs to figure out how to run an offense to become a great coach. He is young and still has time

---

I think you made a good point - Rhule needs to figure out offense. I would not be nearly as kind about it - I felt his offenses were mediocre.

That said, I don't think you have your time line and data correct:
- Grobe went 6-6 with Briles guys, not Rhule. (7-6 with the bowl win)
- When Rhule got here, all of the recruits were granted release and only 1 stayed. Due to graduation, transfers, players getting released and attrition in general, there were 45 scholarship players here when Rhule arrived.
-Rhule had a couple dudes that were great at recruiting and they installed physical football, which took a couple years to show benefits.

We never had a good defense with Briles, so I wouldn't use the term "building our defense back up". I would probably change that to, "Rhule created a good defense, one that we haven't seen in decades".

---

Our defense was good, not great, in 2013-2015. It helped us win back-to-back conference championships (arguably 2015 would have been a third without Seth's injury). It 7certainly could have been better, as it was in 2019 & 2021., but it still was good. In those years and earlier, our offense was best in the country (#1 or close on multiple statistical categories).

Granted, "good" is a very subjective term.

tmcats said:

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montypython said:

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tmcats said:

---

montypython said:

---

tmcats said:

---

chris klieman came to k-state not only because of his stellar ndsu record but more importantly because k-state's a.d. gene taylor hired him while at fargo. they are brothers by different mothers.

---

Right. I think the NDSU ties is a big reason why he brought Klieman over. It was a smart move.

---

that's not quite right. gene taylor had left ndsu and was an assistant a.d. at iowa for a time when hired by k-state. he later terminated bill snyder and brought chris klieman down from fargo.

---

Right, it wasn't all done the same year.

Terminated doesn't sound quite right. Unless he was allowed to "retire" and save face.

---

snyder wrote in his autobiography that gene taylor and k-state's president at the time asked him at season's close if the time had arrived for him to step down? after a long period of silence, he agreed. call that what you will.



can someone here put in cliff notes fashion what has happened to baylor football? i don't get it but am not close enough to understand.

---

From a high-level standpoint, Dave has been faking it until he makes it from day one.

Initially, he had no clue how to hire an offensive staff in the first year. His second year, our defense was strong because of players that Matt Rhule recruited, and our offense had a great running game with Abram Smith and was generally good enough in passing to eat up clock and put efficient scoring drives together. After the 2021 season, all of our good position coaches got hired away. Dave got himself a massive raise, and he refused to hire known commodities from other schools to replace the known commodities that got hired away here. Our best recruiters were the old running back coach and linebacker coach (Juice Johnson/Joey McGuire, respectively) who are now coaching at Texas Tech. Dave gradually replaced most of these aforementioned coaches with graduate assistants and random dudes that got fired from other jobs but still met his standards for integrity and positivity. You see, Dave has always been obsessed with team chemistry. He seems to believe that if you just get the team chemistry correct, everything else will naturally fall into place. Because of this, he has rejected paying individual players because he thinks it might make other players jealous and ruin team chemistry. I wish I was kidding. He also hates the transfer portal, because you have to bring in a lot of unknown characters, and what will that do? It might ruin chemistry, that's what! After last season, he fired our old defensive coordinator who then immediately got hired away by an SEC team, because the guy yelled at players and didn't use enough positive feedback when they played poorly or made mistakes. in doing so, he created a scapegoat for all our failure: lack of team bonding/culture/whatever you want to call it.

So again, it's like we're paying a guy millions to conduct a study on the philosophical strategies of coaching and generally learn on the job, and he really doesn't have the personality/businesslike attitude to be a head coach in the modern era

historian said:

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montypython said:

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Bearwhiz said:

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montypython said:

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Bearwhiz said:

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RightRevBear said:

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Since 1960, Baylor has had three good head coaches Teaff, Briles, and Rhule. Teaff and Briles were ensconced in Texas football. Rhule took a program that had imploded and made it a contender again in a few short years. He was not a Texas football guy, but he hired a lot of them (McGuire, Wetzel, and Bell).

We need to hire a coach that is a Texas football coach. We can't out recruit Texas and A&M. Even at our pinnacle under Briles we struggled to beat them out for recruits even though we were winning the conference. NIL just makes it harder. We won by finding the guys from the small towns that were overlooked. The guys who were raw and needed development. We scouted better and developed better. We also found a system that let us take athletes that were not as good on paper and turn them into stars.

---

Rhule lived off of Briles foundation. We will see how he does at Nebraska

---

I've had to edit this a couple times because I'm trying to be civil. Here goes..

Your statement is about as far from reality as one can get.

---

we went 6-6 the year after Briles and would have won more if the administration did publish that crap the day before the Texas game.

Rhule was able sustain what Briles built. Rhule did a good job of building our defense back up. His O was serviceable. I think if he stayed we would be in better shape than we are now.

He needs to figure out how to run an offense to become a great coach. He is young and still has time

---

I think you made a good point - Rhule needs to figure out offense. I would not be nearly as kind about it - I felt his offenses were mediocre.

That said, I don't think you have your time line and data correct:
- Grobe went 6-6 with Briles guys, not Rhule. (7-6 with the bowl win)
- When Rhule got here, all of the recruits were granted release and only 1 stayed. Due to graduation, transfers, players getting released and attrition in general, there were 45 scholarship players here when Rhule arrived.
-Rhule had a couple dudes that were great at recruiting and they installed physical football, which took a couple years to show benefits.

We never had a good defense with Briles, so I wouldn't use the term "building our defense back up". I would probably change that to, "Rhule created a good defense, one that we haven't seen in decades".

---

Our defense was good, not great, in 2013-2015. but it still was good. In those years and earlier, our offense was best in the country (#1 or close on multiple statistical categories).

Granted, "good" is a very subjective term.

---

We've seen the extremes of offensive philosophies over the past 10 years and have succeeded with both.
Briles break-neck offensive pace and the (arguably?) mediocre defense that resulted from it
Rhules slow plodding offense and the (arguably?) very good defense that benefited from it.


As far as Briles' defenses - they were at best below average in 2013 and ventured into mediocre after that.

defensive points per game allowed
2013 42nd
2014 59th
2015 69th
2016 73rd


Defensive points per game allowed doesn't account for defensive time on the field, defensive snaps and things like that. So, opponents points per play helps a bit.

Defensive points per play allowed
2013 35th
2014 48th
2015 51st
2016 53rd

You can see the defense looks a bit better if we view the data differently. However, I can never view the defenses he fielded as 'good'. The offenses were so potent, that for the most part, it didn't matter.

Jacques Strap said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Never been impressed with this wide zone offense. Watched half the 4th q of toad chokers and buffs and wow it was awesome and didn't hold a candle to a decade of baylor.

But all signs point to my handicap going lower

---

Why we insist on a sleepy offense instead of a wide open one (that most Texas High Schools run) is one of life's great mysteries.

---

I think it's because the blue hairs like to clap occasionally, but not too much.

montypython said:

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historian said:

---

montypython said:

---

Bearwhiz said:

---

montypython said:

---

Bearwhiz said:

---

RightRevBear said:

---

Since 1960, Baylor has had three good head coaches Teaff, Briles, and Rhule. Teaff and Briles were ensconced in Texas football. Rhule took a program that had imploded and made it a contender again in a few short years. He was not a Texas football guy, but he hired a lot of them (McGuire, Wetzel, and Bell).

We need to hire a coach that is a Texas football coach. We can't out recruit Texas and A&M. Even at our pinnacle under Briles we struggled to beat them out for recruits even though we were winning the conference. NIL just makes it harder. We won by finding the guys from the small towns that were overlooked. The guys who were raw and needed development. We scouted better and developed better. We also found a system that let us take athletes that were not as good on paper and turn them into stars.

---

Rhule lived off of Briles foundation. We will see how he does at Nebraska

---

I've had to edit this a couple times because I'm trying to be civil. Here goes..

Your statement is about as far from reality as one can get.

---

we went 6-6 the year after Briles and would have won more if the administration did publish that crap the day before the Texas game.

Rhule was able sustain what Briles built. Rhule did a good job of building our defense back up. His O was serviceable. I think if he stayed we would be in better shape than we are now.

He needs to figure out how to run an offense to become a great coach. He is young and still has time

---

I think you made a good point - Rhule needs to figure out offense. I would not be nearly as kind about it - I felt his offenses were mediocre.

That said, I don't think you have your time line and data correct:
- Grobe went 6-6 with Briles guys, not Rhule. (7-6 with the bowl win)
- When Rhule got here, all of the recruits were granted release and only 1 stayed. Due to graduation, transfers, players getting released and attrition in general, there were 45 scholarship players here when Rhule arrived.
-Rhule had a couple dudes that were great at recruiting and they installed physical football, which took a couple years to show benefits.

We never had a good defense with Briles, so I wouldn't use the term "building our defense back up". I would probably change that to, "Rhule created a good defense, one that we haven't seen in decades".

---

Our defense was good, not great, in 2013-2015. but it still was good. In those years and earlier, our offense was best in the country (#1 or close on multiple statistical categories).

Granted, "good" is a very subjective term.

---

We've seen the extremes of offensive philosophies over the past 10 years.
Briles break-neck offensive pace and the (arguably?) mediocre defense that resulted from it
Rhules slow plodding offense and the (arguably?) very good defense that benefited from it.


As far as Briles' defenses - they were at best below average in 2013 and ventured into mediocre after that.

defensive points per game allowed
2013 42nd
2014 59th
2015 69th
2016 73rd


Defensive points per game allowed doesn't account for defensive time on the field, defensive snaps and things like that. So, opponents points per play helps a bit.

Defensive points per play allowed
2013 35th
2014 48th
2015 51st
2016 53rd

You can see the defense looks a bit better if we view the data differently. However, I can never view the defenses he fielded as 'good'.

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Those rankings are bad, period. You don't win Championships with those Defensive numbers, at least not consistently.

They didn't need to be good, he consistently had the best offense in the country. In order to beat Baylor back thsn you better put 40 on the board. Sure some teams did that. But his formula clearly worked when he got his players in place they started rolling

IowaBear said:

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We really shouldn't have been caught off guard…. There's plenty of tape on UIW and Kinne ran the exact same offense Saturday that he did at UIW. Sure he had a bunch of transfers. Doesn't excuse our d and o lines getting dominated. Doesn't excuse our weak secondary getting torched all night. Doesn't excuse our RBs inability to pick up blitzes. Maybe I. Too harsh but to me these are all still excuses. We're in year 4 and getting our asses kicked by Tx St yet this fanbase wants to make excuse after excuse. Perhaps the cold hard truth is that Dave isn't a good coach and can't develop talent ?

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This excuse would barely apply if they had brought in 50 guys who were at least back up caliber high D1 guys. Even then the staff and players can still easily adjust after the first several possessions. But Tx st brought in guys who could not break the 2 deep of P5 D1 programs yet they dominated the game. Even the element of surprise can't justify that one.

Now Dave needs to show something very very quickly. Has two games against good oppenents in the next several weeks to do it.

The next 5 games will be telling… if we're 1-5 (likely) changes need to be made. If we by some miracle can get to 3-3 I'll be extremely happy all things considered.

LI State, that's one win. Trying to find 3 here.

Tech is beatable and so is UCF. Do I think will beat them ? No but I wouldn't be shocked if we pull one or both out somehow. Texas and Utah are clear losses imo.

Unfortunately, one thing we have to deal with if this season goes south and it becomes clear we need to move on, unlike past coaches, is the portal.

If this season turns south, I can see a lot of guys hitting the portal next year. And considering Aranda doesn't have much to sell at that point and is competing with literally every other program in the country for players, not getting much back in return.

So buyout or not, this could get incredibly ugly real quick. Like starting freshmen and FCS transfer players at many positions ugly.

GoodOleBaylorLine said:

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Unfortunately, one thing we have to deal with if this season goes south and it becomes clear we need to move on, unlike past coaches, is the portal.

If this season turns south, I can see a lot of guys hitting the portal next year. And considering Aranda doesn't have much to sell at that point and is competing with literally every other program in the country for players, not getting much back in return.

So buyout or not, this could get incredibly ugly real quick. Like starting freshmen and FCS transfer players at many positions ugly.

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Honest truth is that there's a lot of deadweight in terms of talent on this team. Everyone wants to blame the coaches, and that's certainly a mediocre group all around, but we need a more businesslike coach that can come in and tell non-contributors to hit the road. And if people think that's harsh, this is a business. Don't forget last off-season when we had players tweeting "pay me!"

Yikes, hadn't thought that far ahead. But person over player will save the day, I just know it! Let everyone else recruit those "bad dudes" and we'll take the remains. It's a proven formula.

Good or great offense and good or great defense are not mutually exclusive. It's difficult, but it's possible for a team to have both. That's one way to define a championship level team.

Statistics are one way to measure it but not the only and you use only one stat. I don't know what the other numbers look like (probably comparable but maybe a little better or worse in some cases) but I know that our defense was good enough in 2013 & 2014 to win the conference title while defeating Texas, OU & TCU. At times it was great, such as the goal line stand vs OU in 2013. There were many examples in those years. By the same token, our defense was elite in 2021. And our offense was enough was good enough to win another Big 12 championship & the Sugar Bowl. In three separate years we were almost good enough on both sides to get into the playoffs (2014, 2019, & 2021).

If we ever get back to being good or great at both then we will have another shot at a title. Once we get there, it's important to do do consistently. Briles was doing that before the fake scandal.

IowaBear said:

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Tech is beatable and so is UCF. Do I think will beat them ? No but I wouldn't be shocked if we pull one or both out somehow. Texas and Utah are clear losses imo.

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It would probably take a miracle to beat Utah Texas. But it is possible.