Indeed, in my opinion you'll never see any of Art's coaching tree really replicate what he accomplished in that 2011-2015 window offensively (and we certainly haven't to date). Success without the revolution, in essence. Scheme-wise it was also a novel variation on the spread theme 10-15 years ago. Defenses can gameplan it better now because they've seen it for a decade.

It's sort of like Lockheed's Skunk Works - they create the U2, the defense eventually adapts and creates higher range missiles, so they create the Blackbird. They create the 117, the opposition creates better radar, so they create the F-35. If you create it, the defense is going to dedicate all their resources to figuring it out and countering it. You're going to have to change eventually, you just want to continually be the one forcing the other guy to adapt. Since it's not their scheme, Art's successors have struggled to do that.

parch said:

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Indeed, in my opinion you'll never see any of Art's coaching tree really replicate what he accomplished in that 2011-2015 window offensively (and we certainly haven't to date). Success without the revolution, in essence. Scheme-wise it was also a novel variation on the spread theme 10-15 years ago. Defenses can gameplan it better now because they've seen it for a decade.

It's sort of like Lockheed's Skunk Works - they create the U2, the defense eventually adapts and creates higher range missiles, so they create the Blackbird. They create the 117, the opposition creates better radar, so they create the F-35. If you create it, the defense is going to dedicate all their resources to figuring it out and countering it. You're going to have to change eventually, you just want to continually be the one forcing the other guy to adapt. Since it's not their scheme, Art's successors have struggled to do that.

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Agree. Art's offense was constantly evolving - not just from season to season or game to game, but within the game itself. Basically, he was the asset. Just because you have someone replicating some of his principles doesn't mean you have the Art Briles offense. If he was still running it, it would look very different today.

I was sitting next to an ole miss fans at the game and was explaining to him a lot about the veer and shoot offense they were running. First, it takes about 3 seasons to fully implement the system and recruit the proper personnel. Second, the system thrives on picking up first downs...especially on first and second down. Three and out punts are devastating for this offense. Third, the offense is riddled with penalties and illegal procedure calls. I dont think the ole miss guy paid me much credence until pretty much all of those things came to fruition during the ball game. Not sure which offensive system ole miss will run next year without lebby but I do think you would need to have a Briles guy in order to stick with the V&S offense.

Art was a smart guy. And smart is a word that is widely overused in our society. And in this case, don't really mean to say 'smart' we mean to say 'creative'. When Art would evolve his scheme, he would reach back into years of experience and practical application of game principles to draw upon a slight variation that would push the scheme forward a bit while keeping it true to the principles it had

Lebby and Kendal are simply not experienced enough to do that. And in my estimation, they aren't on Art's level from an experience or instinct perspective. It would have done both of them a world of good to have worked outside of Art before working under his tutelage.

People won't come out and say it, but that's why the departure of Coach Clements was more important than many realize.

parch said:

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The V&S offense is really tactically interesting, in that it's essentially a sub-variant of another variant of another variant. It's like the center doll of a really weird spread offense Matryoshka doll.

But the one element that will always leave it a niche outsider adopted in its pure form by relatively few OCs is the tempo requirement. The creation of space, favorable matchups, and the branching route trees you're asking receivers to come up with on snap judgment reads can't exist if let the defense set up. Which means speed all the time. Which means you're losing TOP battles hand over fist. Which means you're forcing your defense to take sometimes 50-75% more snaps than your offense. We were actually doubled up a couple times.

No self-respecting defensive coordinator wants to play for a team schemed out for the V&S. Even if you have a phenomenal defensive gameplan, it can feel at times like you're actually playing against two offenses.

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Except for the fact that in our most successful seasons here with Briles, we lined up at the LOS, let the defense set up, and then looked to the sideline so the coaches could basically tell the QB where to go with the ball and the receivers what routes they should run against that alignment.

One of the reasons why none of our players from that era were very successful on the next stage beyond a couple years.

This reminds me, where's REX?

boognish_bear said:

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Ay Baylor prepares for Ole Miss in the Sugar Bowl, Dave Aranda is going up against an offensive scheme he knows how to beat all too well. The spread.

Here's the linebacker and defensive line shade tools that'll boost the Bears over the Rebs

full clip https://t.co/eBDeQu4mxG pic.twitter.com/gRPB5CbwtN

— Football Coach™️ (@footballdothow) December 9, 2021

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I think it suffices to say you can't be an idiot and come play defense at Baylor

trey3216 said:

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parch said:

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The V&S offense is really tactically interesting, in that it's essentially a sub-variant of another variant of another variant. It's like the center doll of a really weird spread offense Matryoshka doll.

But the one element that will always leave it a niche outsider adopted in its pure form by relatively few OCs is the tempo requirement. The creation of space, favorable matchups, and the branching route trees you're asking receivers to come up with on snap judgment reads can't exist if let the defense set up. Which means speed all the time. Which means you're losing TOP battles hand over fist. Which means you're forcing your defense to take sometimes 50-75% more snaps than your offense. We were actually doubled up a couple times.

No self-respecting defensive coordinator wants to play for a team schemed out for the V&S. Even if you have a phenomenal defensive gameplan, it can feel at times like you're actually playing against two offenses.

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Except for the fact that in our most successful seasons here with Briles, we lined up at the LOS, let the defense set up, and then looked to the sideline so the coaches could basically tell the QB where to go with the ball and the receivers what routes they should run against that alignment.

One of the reasons why none of our players from that era were very successful on the next stage beyond a couple years.

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Specific route assignments very rarely come from the sideline in the V&S unless the play is a designed screen, which does get re-routed from sideline calls. And that did happen. But the entire point of the V&S is that it's option-based, which is why so many coaches don't like running it. If it's not option-based, it's not Briles' system.

If the offense does adjust for the WR pre-snap, the V&S adjusts the route tree, not the route itself. The whole point of the system is to give the WR at least two, preferably three branches in the tree to run depending on the set. For instance, they may have a shallow/medium crosser option dialed for the slot and notice the D is stacking the middle third. Well, the step-back sideline call might be to give him a wheel tree. And the QB will know where the branches on that tree lead. Sometimes those step-back calls are designed in and don't actually mean anything. They're just trying to fool the defense.

Again, this is why it's a rare system. Most coaches don't like the unpredictability, and there's a reason it's been so hard for Briles' former assistants to adequately replicate it. You kind of have to catch lightning in a bottle with your personnel.