Mitch Henessey said:
bear2be2 said:
Mitch Henessey said:
bear2be2 said:
Mitch Henessey said:
bear2be2 said:
Quinton said:
wongobear said:
Quinton said:
It really is wild to think they've been investing in George since 17'. For hope of one special six month run and now it's over. A crazy business
This is really good perspective. It certainly doesn't seem like a good investment of time and resources when you put it like this. Then again, if we don't recruit some of these guys then will we even have a shot when the once in a generation guy comes along? I guess the investment will eventually pay dividends when we hit big on one of these guys. If you drop out completely then you decrease the chances of that greatly.
Yeah Im not making a call either way. Just crazy to me to see how much time has past for what comes down to just a moment in time. I know it's even crazier for them.
What you say is true, we would not have as good a shot at the top 24' guy without getting George. The logic you're spelling out was the original argument for the programs in general. Get guys with big success at the next level and that will breed success with the program. It hasn't worked out that way exactly but it is somewhat true. Its the juggling act we are debating here and still isn't settled.
For say Kentucky, I think they started to take pride more in the pro success of their guys than the programs on the court. Kind of devolved into an elitist type mindset.
Your last paragraph highlights my fear for our program. I wish all of our players well after college, but I'm not super invested in their post-Baylor careers.
I don't have any real interest in talking about Quincy Miller, Kendall Brown or Keyonte George past what they did as Baylor Bears. I'm a little more invested in those who played a larger role in our climb as a program or led us to more substantial success, but my memories of these guys will always be shaped by what they did in Baylor uniforms.
The second people start using NBA success to whitewash their college careers or revise history, I'm going to be annoyed. For those of us here who are casual NBA viewers at best, the here and now is all that matters. And Baylor's success will be measured in championships and deep tournament runs, not its draft history or list of active NBA players.
We are so many light years away from what Kentucky has been doing that it's laughable to even make the comparison.
Since Drew got this thing rolling, we've taken on a "one and done" type prospect on average every 2-3 years (P Jones and I Austin stayed longer, but they were considered in that vein).
Kentucky has 4 in next year's class alone (5 if you count their high 4* as a potential one and done). We might as well not even be playing the same sport as them.
For the record, I much prefer our approach. It's not like Drew is abandoning the "get old and stay old" approach he has championed for nearly a decade. Way too many people are reading the tea leaves and letting recency bias affect them. This is an emotional reaction to an ill-fitting roster that has numerous causes (detailed by me and many others elsewhere), not a long term trend line. Getting great 3-4 year players and supplementing them with the occasional one and done is a solid roster-building strategy. It probably would have worked this year if not for injuries and departures from last season's squad.
We didn't have consistent access to one-and-done players before the national championship, so what we did before that isn't terribly relevant to this discussion. We've recruited three of the four one-and-done players in our history the last two years and likely have more on the way in the next two classes. There has been a clear philosophical shift, and that's my concern. I outlined it last year to the consternation of some of the usual suspects.
And we have fewer three- to four-year players in our 2021-24 classes than one-and-dones or projected one-and-dones currently, so I don't think it's crazy at all to suggest that we are, indeed, moving away from the get old, stay old philosophy that made us an elite program from 2020-22.
https://sicem365.com/forums/3/topics/107019/1
Sochan wasn't recruited as a one and done prospect. It's been made abundantly clear that the staff viewed him as a two-year player. That change alone makes this year's roster a Final 4 competitor, which is all you can really ask for in the transfer portal era.
If you're really that concerned, shoot an email to the coaching staff. You might not get a direct response from Scott Drew like you would have 15 years ago, but I'm sure someone on staff would be willing to help quell your fear that we're becoming the NBA's waiting room.
I understand that, but that's a distinction without a difference, isn't it?
Perry Jones and Isaiah Austin were recruited as one-and-dones and they stayed an extra year, so that works both ways. I don't include them in our list of one-and-done players.
And Scott Drew's a big boy who has earned the right to run his program however he sees fit. We can have a discussion here for the sake of having a discussion. I don't see why constructive criticism bothers some so much. Everyone supports Scott Drew and our program. No one is getting personal in their critiques. Ultimately, we'll win big or we won't doing what we're currently doing. I, personally, just don't like to see us trending away from a tried and true formula for one that hasn't worked out nearly as well for us in the past.
I don't see us as going away from that tried and true formula so much as tweaking it to account for changes to the way the game is governed (namely, the transfer portal, one free transfer for every player, and NIL). The more time that passes, the more I start to view that 2020-2021 Baylor team as an anomaly, rather than a template.
I'm not saying we can't do it again. Hell, we had a great shot at going back to back last season if Cryer, Akinjo, and EJ hadn't gone down with injuries. What I'm saying is, the events that coincided with that championship team being one of the most dominant of the last 20 years are more one-offs and probably aren't persistent things we can rely upon going forward.
How often are you going to have three great players sit for a year and gel and physically mature after transferring? Probably not going to happen in today's game. How often are you going to have a stud player with a heart condition transfer to us because of our history of dealing expertly with medical issues? A nice thing to have in your back pocket, but not the basis of a recruiting strategy. How often are you going to have an all-world defender with an insane work ethic transfer to a school that isn't throwing gobs of NIL money his way? How often are you going to have a global pandemic deep-six a transformational season and make everyone but two bench players even hungrier to come back and prove it the next season?
I love that team. I always will. But, I think we caught lightning in a bottle with the confluence of events, and Coach Drew is now attempting to build a sustainably great program that can challenge for conference titles every year, make runs in the tourney if the bracket sets up well for us every year, and compete for Final 4s and NCs every 3-4 years. I don't think he'd be able to do that without changing the approach on some of the things that made that 2020-2021 team great.
The 2020-21 season didn't happen in a vacuum. That process started a year earlier. All of these things happen in multi-year cycles.
All of the best teams we've ever had have come with experienced cores from less successful teams.
Look at the first Elite Eight team. That was accomplished with the remnants of a team didn't even make the tournament the year before. But a run to the NIT title game set the stage for Tweety Carter, Lace Dunn, Quincy Acy, Josh Lomers, Ant Jones, AJ Walton, etc. to join an impact transfer (Ekpe Udoh) on the best team on the modern era to that point.
Look at the second Elite Team. That was accomplished with the remnants of a team that also didn't make the tournament. After getting valuable experience during that disappointing campaign, a core of Perry Jones, Quincy Acy, Ant Jones, AJ Walton, etc. joined a couple of impact transfers (Pierre Jackson and Brady Heslip) and a high-profile freshman (Quincy Miller) to form another outstanding team.
The 2013-14 Sweet 16 team was same way. It was accomplished with the remnants of another disappointing season. But a run to the NIT championship set the stage for Cory Jefferson, Brady Heslip, Isaiah Austin, Rico Gathers and Taurean Prince to join a couple of impact transfers (Kenny Chery and Royce O'Neale) on what turned out to be one of our better teams.
The 2016-17 Sweet 16, same story. We returned a core of Jonathan Motley, Al Freeman, TJ Maston, Ish Wainright, Jake Lindsey, King McClure etc. from a team that got bounced in the first round the previous year and added a couple of impact transfers in Manu Lecomte and Jo Acuil.
All of our best seasons have followed a formula. They've happened with a strong core group of homegrown players that stayed in the program, gained valuable experience got better as a group and transfers at positions of need. That's not a bygone formula. Many of the teams still playing in the NCAA tournament currently followed it.
Experience wins in college basketball.
