I think fans in every league do the same. I know my Aggie friends complain about SEC officials and I've heard reports about it from Big 10 fans, American fans, etc.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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Hotsauce said:

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This was just a thin-skinned ref who made it personal that CSD was in his ear about calls. And unfortunately, it swung the game wildly.

No conspiracy.

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Conspiracy or not, bad officiating needs to be addressed. The fact that the Big 12 doesn't do anything about it doesn't mean that it's not an issue.

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People are willingly ignorant, they think that when millions upon millions are involved that consistently bad outcome affecting officiating is just happen stance. It's not.

KU just happens to get the calls. And the infamous Louisville Lady Sluggers just happen to beat the Lady Bears through a one sided slug fest not all that long ago.

People don't want to believe in conspiracies, even though history shows us that it is the nature of big money organizations. Our officials are bad, B12 could fix it. Choose not to because they're performing to expectations.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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I mean last night is nothing new, the B12 Refs have an agenda and favor teams. Games like this happen at KU with regularity. The Refs don't just happen to be bad, they're playing their part for the league. They're usually trying to keep it close or outright help a team win. Last night BU was making the #12 team look bad.

Also, everyone knows the B12 Refs are bad, and they have been for years. The conference doesn't do anything because they're meeting expectations. As much money is on the line, you think that the B12 wouldn't do better if they wanted to? Commish doesn't care about it, don't look for a fix from him.

The fix was so clear last night that it wouldn't surprise me if the league responded. Got to keep up appearances.

-TinFoilHat
Name checks out, yes, yes it does

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This is the worst take I have ever seen.obviously you know nothing about officials, how they are evaluated or trained and have certainly never sat in the stands and graded them.(I have at the high school level) You have zero education or understanding of the complexities of position jugdement and myriad of years it takes to get the cbb level.
You probably think Bigfoot exist, no one landed on the moon and there was once perfect human being that needed to be saved from having sinned. All hogwash.

The officials last night did a terrible job and showed no composure and a large amount of immaturity and lack of experience in this type of game. There are some fantastic officials in college basketball but as a biased fan of course it can't be seen.
These guys had officials in the stands grading them and they will get the feedback needed hopefully so they can improve in future.

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Guitarbiscuit said:

---

Hotsauce said:

---

This was just a thin-skinned ref who made it personal that CSD was in his ear about calls. And unfortunately, it swung the game wildly.

No conspiracy.

---

Conspiracy or not, bad officiating needs to be addressed. The fact that the Big 12 doesn't do anything about it doesn't mean that it's not an issue.

---

People are willingly ignorant, they think that when millions upon millions are involved that consistently bad outcome affecting officiating is just happen stance. It's not.

KU just happens to get the calls. And the infamous Louisville Lady Sluggers just happen to beat the Lady Bears through a one sided slug fest not all that long ago.

People don't want to believe in conspiracies, even though history shows us that it is the nature of big money organizations. Our officials are bad, B12 could fix it. Choose not to because they're performing to expectations.

---

"Consistent ... outcome affective officiating" is only in your imagination.

College basketball officiating, in general, isn't very good because college basketball is a really difficult game to officiate. When you're dealing with elite athletes who lack the skill and body control of NBA players, you end up with a much more physical game that's almost impossible to call well.

But this idea that there are a bunch of refs intentionally determining the outcomes of games is nonsense. Last night was awful. Some of the worst -- and most seemingly biased -- officiating I've ever seen.

But most of what gets *****ed about on this site game after game after game is just standard college basketball officiating. Some of you just don't watch enough games outside of our own.

joseywales said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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I mean last night is nothing new, the B12 Refs have an agenda and favor teams. Games like this happen at KU with regularity. The Refs don't just happen to be bad, they're playing their part for the league. They're usually trying to keep it close or outright help a team win. Last night BU was making the #12 team look bad.

Also, everyone knows the B12 Refs are bad, and they have been for years. The conference doesn't do anything because they're meeting expectations. As much money is on the line, you think that the B12 wouldn't do better if they wanted to? Commish doesn't care about it, don't look for a fix from him.

The fix was so clear last night that it wouldn't surprise me if the league responded. Got to keep up appearances.

-TinFoilHat
Name checks out, yes, yes it does

---

This is the worst take I have ever seen.obviously you know nothing about officials, how they are evaluated or trained and have certainly never sat in the stands and graded them.(I have at the high school level) You have zero education or understanding of the complexities of position jugdement and myriad of years it takes to get the cbb level.
You probably think Bigfoot exist, no one landed on the moon and there was once perfect human being that needed to be saved from having sinned. All hogwash.

The officials last night did a terrible job and showed no composure and a large amount of immaturity and lack of experience in this type of game. There are some fantastic officials in college basketball but as a biased fan of course it can't be seen.
These guys had officials in the stands grading them and they will get the feedback needed hopefully so they can improve in future.

---

High school basketball is the hardest of all basketball levels to call, especially girls hoops, which is essentially a contact sport.

I would love to see those who spend so much time here griping about officiating try to go out and call a game. They'd realize real quickly how difficult and thankless that job actually is.

It is difficult and thankless. The nature of the job subjects you to being yelled at by fans and harangued by coaches. If you can't handle it you shouldn't have the job. Going personal in a way that affects the game is a cardinal sin that must not occur. Missed calls, uneven calls can oftentimes be excused because of the difficulty of the job or the nature of different styles of play. But last night, particularly the technicals and the expulsion, were beyond the pale. Something must be done about that.

joseywales said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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I mean last night is nothing new, the B12 Refs have an agenda and favor teams. Games like this happen at KU with regularity. The Refs don't just happen to be bad, they're playing their part for the league. They're usually trying to keep it close or outright help a team win. Last night BU was making the #12 team look bad.

Also, everyone knows the B12 Refs are bad, and they have been for years. The conference doesn't do anything because they're meeting expectations. As much money is on the line, you think that the B12 wouldn't do better if they wanted to? Commish doesn't care about it, don't look for a fix from him.

The fix was so clear last night that it wouldn't surprise me if the league responded. Got to keep up appearances.

-TinFoilHat
Name checks out, yes, yes it does

---

This is the worst take I have ever seen.obviously you know nothing about officials, how they are evaluated or trained and have certainly never sat in the stands and graded them.(I have at the high school level) You have zero education or understanding of the complexities of position jugdement and myriad of years it takes to get the cbb level.
You probably think Bigfoot exist, no one landed on the moon and there was once perfect human being that needed to be saved from having sinned. All hogwash.

The officials last night did a terrible job and showed no composure and a large amount of immaturity and lack of experience in this type of game. There are some fantastic officials in college basketball but as a biased fan of course it can't be seen.
These guys had officials in the stands grading them and they will get the feedback needed hopefully so they can improve in future.

---

You seem to have experience officiating, so I'm wondering if you would tell me why anything having to do with officiating seems hush-hush or handled behind closed doors. I'm genuinely curious why these grades the officials receive aren't public info, or at least why a compilation report of some type isn't available for the public to see. Wouldn't that help to assuage fans to see that something does actually happen?

It gets tiring to hear about some closed-door grading and teachable moments while continuing to witness what looks like no real improvement.

Please, enlighten us.

I've watched a number of games this year and struggle with the consistency of the refereeing. One half they let them play and then the other half they whistle any contact. It disrupts the flow of the game in the second half when it's just whistle after whistle and sometimes on both teams.

Refs should establish a general rhythm for the game they're calling and roll with it. If they're going to crack down on moving screens or something in the second half they should tell both coaches. That's fine but calling any contact after letting contact go is not fun to watch.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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I hear you. But I also insist that last night's officiating fiasco is unacceptable. And the Big 12 needs to take action against these guys. No reason for that sort of behavior.

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I'm with you. Last night's officiating was egregiously bad. Griping about the officiating every single game lessens the impact of a game like last night's, which was truly and objectively awful.

bear2be2 said:

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Guitarbiscuit said:

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I hear you. But I also insist that last night's officiating fiasco is unacceptable. And the Big 12 needs to take action against these guys. No reason for that sort of behavior.

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I'm with you. Last night's officiating was egregiously bad. Griping about the officiating every single game lessens the impact of a game like last night's, which was truly and objectively awful.

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Ok gotcha.

Sure most games fall under standard college officiating, so what? Sometimes they miss a call, sometimes they make a bad call, and try to make it up with an offsetting bad call, we all get it.

But any game where the refs clearly favor a team is just labeled "bad officiating" by those that think money affects every aspect of the game but officiating ... It is somehow left untouched.

B12 Refs are just not consistently good imo, and sure officiating is tough, OK we all know that. Doesn't change that they definitely seem to have an agenda for many ranked team games. Usually all a team gets is "help" like KU gets regularly. This past game was definitely something more than that. And of course there's been many games over the years where the refs were "a" if not "the" significant factor. I just think its by design, you think that doesn't happen. OK, fair enough.

And I'm cool with all the naysayers calling it a conspiracy, doesn't change people's nature. When massive money is involved, people and companies tend to conspire. That's the reality of history.

I can see one very major flaw with this thread. College basketball does not have conference officials like college football does. There is no such thing as Big 12 officials. It's easy to make this mistake, as most do, because college football does have conference officials. College basketball does not. Don't take my word for this though. Look it up and confirm that I am right, or confirm that I am wrong.

Jalapeno Hawk said:

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I can see one very major flaw with this thread. College basketball does not have conference officials like college football does. There is no such thing as Big 12 officials. It's easy to make this mistake, as most do, because college football does have conference officials. College basketball does not. Don't take my word for this though. Look it up and confirm that I am right, or confirm that I am wrong.

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I think most understand that. But the pool of refs the B12 pulls from seem bad at best and corrupt at worst. I don't know if we use a regional pool or what. We need to expand the pool or hire international refs or something. If we are going to claim to be the best basketball conference, we should be getting the best refs available.

Jalapeno Hawk said:

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I can see one very major flaw with this thread. College basketball does not have conference officials like college football does. There is no such thing as Big 12 officials. It's easy to make this mistake, as most do, because college football does have conference officials. College basketball does not. Don't take my word for this though. Look it up and confirm that I am right, or confirm that I am wrong.

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B12 doesn't have employee BB officials. They are independent operators [through the consortium] who also ref for other conferences.

That said, to officiate B12 games they are approved, reviewed, graded, and have conference mandated training.
One pencil whip and they can be barred from officiating in B12 this year or forever.

It is hard to grab good officials from other conferences "in season" as schedules are already set. If discipline occurs, the conference would likely have to grab open dates from the already approved pool. And those refs are already booked heavily. One big complaint about Higgins [before he retired to admin work] was that he was routinely working 6 games per week [which is insane].

Snapshot from last season (one 7 day window): East Coast, West Coast, Middle America

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Sure most games fall under standard college officiating, so what? Sometimes they miss a call, sometimes they make a bad call, and try to make it up with an offsetting bad call, we all get it.

But any game where the refs clearly favor a team is just labeled "bad officiating" by those that think money affects every aspect of the game but officiating ... It is somehow left untouched.

B12 Refs are just not consistently good imo, and sure officiating is tough, OK we all know that. Doesn't change that they definitely seem to have an agenda for many ranked team games. Usually all a team gets is "help" like KU gets regularly. This past game was definitely something more than that. And of course there's been many games over the years where the refs were "a" if not "the" significant factor. I just think its by design, you think that doesn't happen. OK, fair enough.

And I'm cool with all the naysayers calling it a conspiracy, doesn't change people's nature. When massive money is involved, people and companies tend to conspire. That's the reality of history.

---

There just aren't nearly as many of those games as you want to believe. Any perceived agendas for or against particular teams are imaginary, in most cases. The only venue in the Big 12 where officiating would consistently appear biased is at Phog Allen, and I'd argue that has more to do with human psychology than outright corruption.

bear2be2 said:

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TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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Sure most games fall under standard college officiating, so what? Sometimes they miss a call, sometimes they make a bad call, and try to make it up with an offsetting bad call, we all get it.

But any game where the refs clearly favor a team is just labeled "bad officiating" by those that think money affects every aspect of the game but officiating ... It is somehow left untouched.

B12 Refs are just not consistently good imo, and sure officiating is tough, OK we all know that. Doesn't change that they definitely seem to have an agenda for many ranked team games. Usually all a team gets is "help" like KU gets regularly. This past game was definitely something more than that. And of course there's been many games over the years where the refs were "a" if not "the" significant factor. I just think its by design, you think that doesn't happen. OK, fair enough.

And I'm cool with all the naysayers calling it a conspiracy, doesn't change people's nature. When massive money is involved, people and companies tend to conspire. That's the reality of history.

---

There just aren't nearly as many of those games as you want to believe. Any perceived agendas for or against particular teams are imaginary, in most cases. The only venue in the Big 12 where officiating would consistently appear biased is at Phog Allen, and I'd argue that has more to do with human psychology than outright corruption.

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The issue is one of degrees.

Is college basketball full of a bunch of mini Tim Donaghy's? No.
Is college basketball full of venues/teams/coaches who are far more likely to get all/nearly all 50/50 calls? Yes.

And in the B12 where so many games are won/lost by 1-2 possessions, that reality is really impactful.
The refs work far too many games.
They default too often [call everything to gain control, let them play].
Higgins was notorious for calls "to send a message". That crap should never happen but it does.

Honestly don't think that officiating MBB is harder than officiating FB. But FB's review process has an impact [whether folks want to admit it or not] and working 1 game a week instead of 5-t games a week [and associated travel] has an even bigger impact.

That issue is not likely to change. But cutting off a few heads to send the "stop your personal agendas" message is easy.

Guitarbiscuit said:

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I hear you. But I also insist that last night's officiating fiasco is unacceptable. And the Big 12 needs to take action against these guys. No reason for that sort of behavior.

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These guys, especially Hartness, should never be allowed to officiate another Big 12 game. Baylor should never allow them to step foot inside Foster again. It was that egregious.

I can see how making those reports public could actually inflame the negative attitudes of fans. Then the evaluators, would gear their reports towards the expected reaction & they would be less honest. Their value would largely disappear. Unfortunately, this is what our culture has descended into.

Jalapeno Hawk said:

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I can see one very major flaw with this thread. College basketball does not have conference officials like college football does. There is no such thing as Big 12 officials. It's easy to make this mistake, as most do, because college football does have conference officials. College basketball does not. Don't take my word for this though. Look it up and confirm that I am right, or confirm that I am wrong.

---

Good point. I don't watch a whole lot of games from other conferences but I do sometimes see some of the same crews. It is common.

That makes sense. It should not be too difficult to have crews that only work a certain geographic area. For example, some crews could just work in Texas or New England (a much smaller area). By being multiple conferences, they could easily work games in Waco, Austin, Houston, College Station, Dallas (SMU), & Ft Worth. Not to mention N Texas, SFA, UTSA, etc. UTEP should probably grouped with NM & Arizona schools, maybe all of the 4 corners. It would be more efficient and help prevent fatigue. It's quite possible that some of their mistakes are just human error from being tired.

Officials probably work multiple games a week for the extra pay & the leagues probably go along with it because there is a shortage of qualified people. Anyone notice how often there are female officials now? I think I've recently seen Amy Bonner in 2-3 games in a week for WBB & MBB along with multiple conferences.