PartyBear said:

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I believe that is correct. Miller as you recall was the HC at Killeen Ellison I think. He was hired by Johnson as an assistant. as I recall just in the off season before Johnson's final season. Things were already going south for the staff in terms of legal problems etc. and Miller was brought in. Remember Johnson wasnt fired mid season of his last season he was fired at the beginning of his 3rd season in Nov of 94. Miller was suddenly named interim HC of a major program. The previous season he was a HS HC. Ellis brought in someone who's name escapes me but he had been a previous HC at ISU and was a semi big name at that time to help Miller sort of as a co-HC for that season. Then Miller had the interim tag removed after the season.

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Miller was HC at Temple

Harry Miller brought in my high school hoop coach Larry Brown as assistant. LB is in the Texas High School basketball coaches hall of fame after being the first in Texas 5A basketball to win back to back state championships at Bryan 1983-84. He was also Assist at Clemson, S Alabama, Texas Tech last year, head coach at Sam Houston and currently assist to his son on Waco Midway's staff.

setshot said:

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I followed Johnson's pre-Baylor career at Oklahoma City University, where he won two NAIA National Championships, and was undefeated in one of them. Because I was familiar with the background of the five players who played almost all the minutes there, I had severe reservations when Teaff, the Athletic Director at the time, brought him to Waco. Those five players were basketball vagabond/mercenaries who had been highly recruited (Kentucky and Georgia for two of them, a guard who averaged forty points a game as a senior but could not qualify to get into any four year school in the state, etc.), but for various reasons either could not get into a university or stay at the one that they managed to attend out of high school. In most instances, I knew what those reasons were, and they were legitimate.

It was not my place to instruct Teaff how to do his recruitment of coaches, but I knew that the recruiting pathologies of coaches are repetitive and unless Teaff understood what he was dealing with and sat on top of it Darrell Johnson would get Baylor into trouble with the NCAA. The temptation to take shortcuts to success is difficult to resist, and in his second year he recruited not one or two, but six junior college players, including a great one out at McClennan College who did not have the credits or grades to get into the many schools who wanted him, one of which was Texas Tech.

This was a student/athlete who after two years still lacked, as I recall, sixteen credits to qualify for admission, but somehow he made them up in one summer. My experience told me that that was a near impossibility, and some of the other recruits were in similar difficulties, but all qualified. I believe that it was Tech who raised the question with the NCAA and their subsequent investigation tore the lid off of a mess of violations, not one of which surprised me. What did make me wonder a bit was why no one at Baylor could see what I was seeing from 2,000 miles away. This was beyond naive...

Incidentally, I visited Waco and wanted to see a practice. I discovered that the Ferrell Center was not available, nor was the Russell gymnasium, so the Baylor basketball team borrowed time to work out at University High School's gym, if you can imagine that! I drove over to watch the practice and thought that it was one of the more impressive coaching efforts I had seen at Baylor, and I have watched the practices of almost all the coaches from 1950 to the present, with the exception of Carroll Dawson. Johnson could coach, that was never at issue, it was what came with it that seemed to be the problem, and that was predictable, based on his time at OCU.

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Pretty good summary.

I'll add that one of those players, Skeeter Henry, couldn't make the cut at Oklahoma, the entire rest of his roster were refugee players from other programs. And this was the Oklahoma of Billy Tubbs, who managed to keep Mookie Blaylock eligible and out of trouble, even with several off the court incidents that were swept under the rug.

Darrell came to several of my HS practices. I liked him, he has a good personality. Easily, the best coach in Oklahoma.

But to be clear, Johnson didn't cheat to bring every player to campus. There were some where he recruited well and brought in players that fit his style and were locks to make it in college.

highplains said:

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Johnson was dirty from the start and not a very good person. He didn't need anybody doing him in because he did it to himself. When it came apart, he threw his staff under the bus and watched them face criminal charges while he walked away.

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I was working from memory of events over 20 years ago. Check these out. You have to scroll down to find all the stories in LA Times.

Johnson acquitted

Darrel Johnson and staff trials

Bowers settles suit

I did not do much more than get a second hand summary from a friend who was close to the athletic programs at Baylor about the internal scandal, and the Johnson private matters away from basketball were of marginal interest to me, however unwise they proved to be. What did interest and alarm me was the mode of operation that he brought to Baylor from OCU.

At the very least a competent athletic director would have made clear to him in the exchanges that took place during the interview process that he was aware of both his success and his means of obtaining it at OCU, but that Baylor operated on a different level and scrutiny could be expected to be a part of that. What had been permissible, if questionable, at OCU simply could not be allowed at Baylor and there would be oversight to assure that compliance with the agreed upon expectations were being followed. Deviations from that would be subject to penalties up to and including dismissal if they were severe enough to warrant that.

Baylor had already had its basketball program investigated by the NCAA and did not need another embarrassment.

I only met and talked with Johnson one time, and I found him to be an attractive, engaging person. Watching him work at practice, I thought him to be acutely observant and quick to take corrective action when he saw things that were not of his liking developing or players who were too lax in carrying out their assignments, both being qualities of a strong teacher. I liked his coaching style in the little time I had to see it in action.

I am reminded of what a historian/biographer said of Lorenzo de Medici, that "the accomplishments of his mind were overwhelmed by the deficiencies of his character." Johnson had so much to offer, so much possibility for Baylor, but he needed much more of a mature and understanding Baylor leadership than he received. The result was very unfortunate for everyone concerned.

Incidentally, Bliss was the most accomplished schmoozer I have ever met, a very charming and persuasive man and not at all a bad coach. Had I not been aware of his coaching history I would have been taken in as much as anyone. I thought at the time of his hire that it was a mistake for the same reason, only more so, that I thought the hire of Johnson had been one of considerable risk. Both men had some good qualities, but the corruption that so disfigures the image of college athletics had already fastened itself on both men before they came to Waco, and no competent administrator should have accepted those risks then or now.

Well stated - agree completely.

TellMeYouLoveMe said:

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setshot said:

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I followed Johnson's pre-Baylor career at Oklahoma City University, where he won two NAIA National Championships, and was undefeated in one of them. Because I was familiar with the background of the five players who played almost all the minutes there, I had severe reservations when Teaff, the Athletic Director at the time, brought him to Waco. Those five players were basketball vagabond/mercenaries who had been highly recruited (Kentucky and Georgia for two of them, a guard who averaged forty points a game as a senior but could not qualify to get into any four year school in the state, etc.), but for various reasons either could not get into a university or stay at the one that they managed to attend out of high school. In most instances, I knew what those reasons were, and they were legitimate.

It was not my place to instruct Teaff how to do his recruitment of coaches, but I knew that the recruiting pathologies of coaches are repetitive and unless Teaff understood what he was dealing with and sat on top of it Darrell Johnson would get Baylor into trouble with the NCAA. The temptation to take shortcuts to success is difficult to resist, and in his second year he recruited not one or two, but six junior college players, including a great one out at McClennan College who did not have the credits or grades to get into the many schools who wanted him, one of which was Texas Tech.

This was a student/athlete who after two years still lacked, as I recall, sixteen credits to qualify for admission, but somehow he made them up in one summer. My experience told me that that was a near impossibility, and some of the other recruits were in similar difficulties, but all qualified. I believe that it was Tech who raised the question with the NCAA and their subsequent investigation tore the lid off of a mess of violations, not one of which surprised me. What did make me wonder a bit was why no one at Baylor could see what I was seeing from 2,000 miles away. This was beyond naive...

Incidentally, I visited Waco and wanted to see a practice. I discovered that the Ferrell Center was not available, nor was the Russell gymnasium, so the Baylor basketball team borrowed time to work out at University High School's gym, if you can imagine that! I drove over to watch the practice and thought that it was one of the more impressive coaching efforts I had seen at Baylor, and I have watched the practices of almost all the coaches from 1950 to the present, with the exception of Carroll Dawson. Johnson could coach, that was never at issue, it was what came with it that seemed to be the problem, and that was predictable, based on his time at OCU.

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Pretty good summary.

I'll add that one of those players, Skeeter Henry, couldn't make the cut at Oklahoma, the entire rest of his roster were refugee players from other programs. And this was the Oklahoma of Billy Tubbs, who managed to keep Mookie Blaylock eligible and out of trouble, even with several off the court incidents that were swept under the rug.

Darrell came to several of my HS practices. I liked him, he has a good personality. Easily, the best coach in Oklahoma.

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Don't know what you are talking about but Skeeter (Herman) played two years at Midland JC and then 2 years at OU, including in 1990 when OU got to no 1. He never played for D Johnson at that Oklahoma tiny college and never had issues at OU

And Herman wasn't at juco due to grades He just wasn't highly recruited

setshot said:

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At the very least a competent athletic director would have made clear to him in the exchanges that took place during the interview process that he was aware of both his success and his means of obtaining it at OCU, but that Baylor operated on a different level and scrutiny could be expected to be a part of that. What had been permissible, if questionable, at OCU simply could not be allowed at Baylor and there would be oversight to assure that compliance with the agreed upon expectations were being followed. Deviations from that would be subject to penalties up to and including dismissal if they were severe enough to warrant that.

Baylor had already had its basketball program investigated by the NCAA and did not need another embarrassment.

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So before it ever 'went down' or became public I should say, a few tenured professors spoke openly about the situation you described earlier, most notably, the player who made up for 19 credit hours through a mail order community college in Florida. And I mean in class. Open criticism. They pointed out, even though they weren't in the athletic department, that it was blatantly obvious that Johnson's players would not be eligible and yet no one in the Athletic Department took the initiative to investigate or screen them. The announcement of their signing were published in the school newspaper before even the athletic department was informed.

Many people missed it, but that was the first sign of poor management from the athletic department leadership. interestingly, the strategic response of the athletic department championed the 'moral outrage and surprise' tactic which seems to have pleased the masses and duped them into excusing the lack of responsibility.

So for those of you that expect a scandal every 5-10 years, I'd say you're correct. Baylor has sort of built in the scapegoat process to managing college athletics.

bularry said:

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TellMeYouLoveMe said:

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setshot said:

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I followed Johnson's pre-Baylor career at Oklahoma City University, where he won two NAIA National Championships, and was undefeated in one of them. Because I was familiar with the background of the five players who played almost all the minutes there, I had severe reservations when Teaff, the Athletic Director at the time, brought him to Waco. Those five players were basketball vagabond/mercenaries who had been highly recruited (Kentucky and Georgia for two of them, a guard who averaged forty points a game as a senior but could not qualify to get into any four year school in the state, etc.), but for various reasons either could not get into a university or stay at the one that they managed to attend out of high school. In most instances, I knew what those reasons were, and they were legitimate.

It was not my place to instruct Teaff how to do his recruitment of coaches, but I knew that the recruiting pathologies of coaches are repetitive and unless Teaff understood what he was dealing with and sat on top of it Darrell Johnson would get Baylor into trouble with the NCAA. The temptation to take shortcuts to success is difficult to resist, and in his second year he recruited not one or two, but six junior college players, including a great one out at McClennan College who did not have the credits or grades to get into the many schools who wanted him, one of which was Texas Tech.

This was a student/athlete who after two years still lacked, as I recall, sixteen credits to qualify for admission, but somehow he made them up in one summer. My experience told me that that was a near impossibility, and some of the other recruits were in similar difficulties, but all qualified. I believe that it was Tech who raised the question with the NCAA and their subsequent investigation tore the lid off of a mess of violations, not one of which surprised me. What did make me wonder a bit was why no one at Baylor could see what I was seeing from 2,000 miles away. This was beyond naive...

Incidentally, I visited Waco and wanted to see a practice. I discovered that the Ferrell Center was not available, nor was the Russell gymnasium, so the Baylor basketball team borrowed time to work out at University High School's gym, if you can imagine that! I drove over to watch the practice and thought that it was one of the more impressive coaching efforts I had seen at Baylor, and I have watched the practices of almost all the coaches from 1950 to the present, with the exception of Carroll Dawson. Johnson could coach, that was never at issue, it was what came with it that seemed to be the problem, and that was predictable, based on his time at OCU.

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Pretty good summary.

I'll add that one of those players, Skeeter Henry, couldn't make the cut at Oklahoma, the entire rest of his roster were refugee players from other programs. And this was the Oklahoma of Billy Tubbs, who managed to keep Mookie Blaylock eligible and out of trouble, even with several off the court incidents that were swept under the rug.

Darrell came to several of my HS practices. I liked him, he has a good personality. Easily, the best coach in Oklahoma.

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Don't know what you are talking about but Skeeter (Herman) played two years at Midland JC and then 2 years at OU, including in 1990 when OU got to no 1. He never played for D Johnson at that Oklahoma tiny college and never had issues at OU

And Herman wasn't at juco due to grades He just wasn't highly recruited

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Sorry, was thinking of Smokey McCovery.

Listed here on OCU's roster. https://www.ocusports.com/news/2011/8/8/MBB_0808110651.aspx

and here, as an OU sooner.





I'm sure they were zealous about academic requirements.

Historically accurate.

Bliss ' OU incident made the late great Jackie Cooper a banned NCAA booster though Nelson Peterson later worked him post federal prison. Nelson did a good job cleaning up those cars at a good salary.
Bliss was a sleaze ball. We were bible school athletics. Bad combo.


DJ was doing what they were all doing. He would have assembled talent and coached them like a real coach.
The players didn't know where these schools were in Florida. They didn't know where their credits were coming from when asked.

Setshot, remember Larry Johnson 's signing at SMU?

Lot of misinformation, 3rd party hearsay and personal vendettas in this thread. Very surprised at one in particular.

Which one?

Personal vendetta's?

This is about as fair and objective as it gets, so have at.

Stefano DiMera said:

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Personal vendetta's?

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Yeah, I'm not seeing that either

Forgot about Smokey

tellme, thanks for weighing in. It interested me that most of the information I got on my semi-annual visit to Waco, at least among Baylor folks, centered on the personal issues, whereas most of my information about the OCU background of Johnson came from news sources and basketball publications that I subscribed to at the time. I saw his teams play on television and recognized four of the five starters based on those sources and what they covered concerning their recruitment and subsequent troubles at their programs of choice.

I subscribed to the Waco Tribune-Herald for over forty years, primarily to follow Baylor athletics, and I knew to varying degrees the sports editors from 1950 through Dave Campbell and Kim Gorum, so the coverage of Baylor recruiting was pretty much a matter of record, though typically questions were not raised in print that were discussed in private, until, that is, there were specific reasons to do so. Access to people in the various sports could dry up if things were not carefully handled.....

I do not doubt that Baylor professors were as surprised as I was 2,000 miles away when Baylor recruited various junior college players who needed credits and grades to become eligible and this was reported in the newspaper as though it was normal for 15 to 19 units to be completed in six to eight summer weeks with the requisite grades by athletes whose academic careers to that point had been anything but exemplary. The greatest surprise was not that they were being recruited, but that no one in the athletic department, or for that matter in the administrative offices, were raising questions about it.

DanaDane, this happened over twenty-five years ago, and I have never addressed it, excepting in private conversation, until now. I think that it is all a matter of record, at least about the recruiting violations which were investigated and which once more brought embarrassment to the program. Another ten years and we had our third investigation and even more embarrassment, compounded by tragedy. The most compelling thread tying these things together is poor judgment on the part of the head coach and the lack of oversight by those charged with providing it.

No discussion of Scott Drew can be properly made unless these things are known and accounted for, because I assure you that our adversaries in the conference are all too willing to do it even if we do not. Context in sports, as in life, is not everything, but it is the buttress which holds us to understanding and reasonableness.

setshot said:

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I followed Johnson's pre-Baylor career at Oklahoma City University, where he won two NAIA National Championships, and was undefeated in one of them. Because I was familiar with the background of the five players who played almost all the minutes there, I had severe reservations when Teaff, the Athletic Director at the time, brought him to Waco. Those five players were basketball vagabond/mercenaries who had been highly recruited (Kentucky and Georgia for two of them, a guard who averaged forty points a game as a senior but could not qualify to get into any four year school in the state, etc.), but for various reasons either could not get into a university or stay at the one that they managed to attend out of high school. In most instances, I knew what those reasons were, and they were legitimate.

It was not my place to instruct Teaff how to do his recruitment of coaches, but I knew that the recruiting pathologies of coaches are repetitive and unless Teaff understood what he was dealing with and sat on top of it Darrell Johnson would get Baylor into trouble with the NCAA. The temptation to take shortcuts to success is difficult to resist, and in his second year he recruited not one or two, but six junior college players, including a great one out at McClennan College who did not have the credits or grades to get into the many schools who wanted him, one of which was Texas Tech.

This was a student/athlete who after two years still lacked, as I recall, sixteen credits to qualify for admission, but somehow he made them up in one summer. My experience told me that that was a near impossibility, and some of the other recruits were in similar difficulties, but all qualified. I believe that it was Tech who raised the question with the NCAA and their subsequent investigation tore the lid off of a mess of violations, not one of which surprised me. What did make me wonder a bit was why no one at Baylor could see what I was seeing from 2,000 miles away. This was beyond naive...

Incidentally, I visited Waco and wanted to see a practice. I discovered that the Ferrell Center was not available, nor was the Russell gymnasium, so the Baylor basketball team borrowed time to work out at University High School's gym, if you can imagine that! I drove over to watch the practice and thought that it was one of the more impressive coaching efforts I had seen at Baylor, and I have watched the practices of almost all the coaches from 1950 to the present, with the exception of Carroll Dawson. Johnson could coach, that was never at issue, it was what came with it that seemed to be the problem, and that was predictable, based on his time at OCU.

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BIG difference in NAIA 'no rules' compliance to D-I. Even then it was a little blatant. And rule compliance is part of coaching.