There is no chance WW3 would be a long war. Maybe WW4Doc Holliday said:The end of the Putin regime is the declaration of WW3, a very long war…I don't want that.Canon said:Doc Holliday said:
Let's talk about what's really going on here.US official was caught admitting that their goal is to engineer “the end of Putin regime,” thus explaining the “lack of any diplomatic effort by the US to secure a ceasefire.” Also showing that the claimed humanitarian concern for Ukrainians is a total lie https://t.co/xzDiFPdNXP
— Michael Tracey (@mtracey) March 23, 2022
The end of the Putin regime IS a humanitarian effort. Russia doesn't need your help. Sit this one out.
You want to push Russia into an alliance with China and parts of the Middle East in a very long and expensive prolonged proxy war?
Thousands will die in the process including children. I can't support that. The planet will be brought to its knees and the solutions will destroy our freedoms.
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine
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Last: 3 yr ago by william
Happened twice in the last century in..*checks list*..Russia for one.nein51 said:Malbec said:Absolutely. It worked in Cuba with Castr... Nevermind.Proud 1992 Alum said:Doc Holliday said:The end of the Putin regime is the declaration of WW3, a very long war…I don't want that.Canon said:Doc Holliday said:
Let's talk about what's really going on here.US official was caught admitting that their goal is to engineer “the end of Putin regime,” thus explaining the “lack of any diplomatic effort by the US to secure a ceasefire.” Also showing that the claimed humanitarian concern for Ukrainians is a total lie https://t.co/xzDiFPdNXP
— Michael Tracey (@mtracey) March 23, 2022
The end of the Putin regime IS a humanitarian effort. Russia doesn't need your help. Sit this one out.
You want to push Russia into an alliance with China and parts of the Middle East in a very long and expensive prolonged proxy war?
Thousands will die in the process including children. I can't support that. The planet will be brought to its knees and the solutions will destroy our freedoms.
Why do you assume that? The removal of Putin by other Russians should absolutely be our hope. While the Russian successor isn't assured to be better, I think that the successor is likely to be far less ambitious than Putin. The new Russian leader could make a peace deal and blame the whole fiasco on Putin.
Not sure you can find a time it actually did work.
nein51 said:Malbec said:Absolutely. It worked in Cuba with Castr... Nevermind.Proud 1992 Alum said:Doc Holliday said:The end of the Putin regime is the declaration of WW3, a very long war…I don't want that.Canon said:Doc Holliday said:
Let's talk about what's really going on here.US official was caught admitting that their goal is to engineer “the end of Putin regime,” thus explaining the “lack of any diplomatic effort by the US to secure a ceasefire.” Also showing that the claimed humanitarian concern for Ukrainians is a total lie https://t.co/xzDiFPdNXP
— Michael Tracey (@mtracey) March 23, 2022
The end of the Putin regime IS a humanitarian effort. Russia doesn't need your help. Sit this one out.
You want to push Russia into an alliance with China and parts of the Middle East in a very long and expensive prolonged proxy war?
Thousands will die in the process including children. I can't support that. The planet will be brought to its knees and the solutions will destroy our freedoms.
Why do you assume that? The removal of Putin by other Russians should absolutely be our hope. While the Russian successor isn't assured to be better, I think that the successor is likely to be far less ambitious than Putin. The new Russian leader could make a peace deal and blame the whole fiasco on Putin.
Not sure you can find a time it actually did work.
Panama. Pineapple face died in federal prison.
Most overthrows aren't completed via a popular uprising, although Russia did it twice in the 20th Century, but by the coordination of the inner circle, in particular those who are military leaders. It's no coincidence top defense officials are "disappearing". That would hint that unity of efforts aren't all in sync. So hope exists beyond fantasy.
I dont mean regime change...I mean US involvement in regime change. As a rule pretty much every one we have touched has become a massive problem down the road.ATL Bear said:
Most overthrows aren't completed via a popular uprising, although Russia did it twice in the 20th Century, but by the coordination of the inner circle, in particular those who are military leaders. It's no coincidence top defense officials are "disappearing". That would hint that unity of efforts aren't all in sync. So hope exists beyond fantasy.
It takes an insane amount of chutzpah for this degenerate, senile and corrupt oaf to slander his fellow countrymen as Nazis while he’s cheering and arming real-life Azov Nazis in Ukraine. Disgusting scumbag. pic.twitter.com/xn4mTICqlQ
— David Reaboi, Late Republic Nonsense (@davereaboi) March 24, 2022
Looks like ole David is off his rocker and loves him some Vladamir Putin.Doc Holliday said:It takes an insane amount of chutzpah for this degenerate, senile and corrupt oaf to slander his fellow countrymen as Nazis while he’s cheering and arming real-life Azov Nazis in Ukraine. Disgusting scumbag. pic.twitter.com/xn4mTICqlQ
— David Reaboi, Late Republic Nonsense (@davereaboi) March 24, 2022
"Stand with anyone when he is right; Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." - Abraham Lincoln
Because he's critical of Biden?RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Looks like ole David is off his rocker and loves him some Vladamir Putin.Doc Holliday said:It takes an insane amount of chutzpah for this degenerate, senile and corrupt oaf to slander his fellow countrymen as Nazis while he’s cheering and arming real-life Azov Nazis in Ukraine. Disgusting scumbag. pic.twitter.com/xn4mTICqlQ
— David Reaboi, Late Republic Nonsense (@davereaboi) March 24, 2022
Biden essentially called US libertarian and conservatives Nazis while he's sending billions of dollars to actual Ukraine Nazis.
Do you guys not understand that Ukraine has a lot of Nazi supporters? It's huge over there.
Literally everyone in US supports Ukrainians defending their homeland. Question is sending money and weapons to a corrupt regime. And whether they are truly blameless given their regular shelling of civilian areas in Donbas, and Azov torturing civilians with impunity.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Looks like ole David is off his rocker and loves him some Vladamir Putin.Doc Holliday said:It takes an insane amount of chutzpah for this degenerate, senile and corrupt oaf to slander his fellow countrymen as Nazis while he’s cheering and arming real-life Azov Nazis in Ukraine. Disgusting scumbag. pic.twitter.com/xn4mTICqlQ
— David Reaboi, Late Republic Nonsense (@davereaboi) March 24, 2022
The usual Russian outdated conspiracy theories they used to launch a brutal war.
You boomers are gonna be down for another prolonged war where we send billions to corrupt Ukrainians to fight corrupt Russians and then eventually send our own young men over there to die.
You're repeating MSM talking points, you're all in on WW3 and you have no idea what's actually going on.
Our country lied to us about Afghanistan and blew through $7 trillion and you're just gonna agree with those same people?!
No wonder our country is a mess, you guys have fallen for this villian vs superhero garbage your whole life.
You're repeating MSM talking points, you're all in on WW3 and you have no idea what's actually going on.
Our country lied to us about Afghanistan and blew through $7 trillion and you're just gonna agree with those same people?!
No wonder our country is a mess, you guys have fallen for this villian vs superhero garbage your whole life.
An uprising in the general population is not likely. Russians have an historically strong devotion to their leader. Remember when Stalin died, millions of Russians wept openly for a man who killed more Russian people than Hitler. What could happen is a revolt among the Oligarchs. The defection of one of his close advisers this week is evidence that support among the elite is cracking. An actual coup, however, is not likely as long as Putin has control of FSB and support of the Military.tommie said:Doc Holliday said:It's not realistic. It's ideal but I don't see it happening.Proud 1992 Alum said:Doc Holliday said:The end of the Putin regime is the declaration of WW3, a very long war…I don't want that.Canon said:Doc Holliday said:
Let's talk about what's really going on here.US official was caught admitting that their goal is to engineer “the end of Putin regime,” thus explaining the “lack of any diplomatic effort by the US to secure a ceasefire.” Also showing that the claimed humanitarian concern for Ukrainians is a total lie https://t.co/xzDiFPdNXP
— Michael Tracey (@mtracey) March 23, 2022
The end of the Putin regime IS a humanitarian effort. Russia doesn't need your help. Sit this one out.
You want to push Russia into an alliance with China and parts of the Middle East in a very long and expensive prolonged proxy war?
Thousands will die in the process including children. I can't support that. The planet will be brought to its knees and the solutions will destroy our freedoms.
Why do you assume that? The removal of Putin by other Russians should absolutely be our hope. While the Russian successor isn't assured to be better, I think that the successor is likely to be far less ambitious than Putin. The new Russian leader could make a peace deal and blame the whole fiasco on Putin.
It's absolutely realistic. 40K is real families. (Even with defectors)
And the economic impact to the loss of life and an uprising is coming.
American efforts to encourage a coup would be the definition of playing with fire, possibly the nuclear kind. Western leaders are struggling to find a way for Putin to back out of the Ukrainian s##t show, without his losing his head. As bad as he is, the chaos of an out-of-control revolution with 4,000 nukes in play is not a place we want to get to.
Ah, misunderstood. You could argue we're effective at regime change, but the aftermath and nation building we've failed pretty badly, and many times complicated the situation even further.nein51 said:I dont mean regime change...I mean US involvement in regime change. As a rule pretty much every one we have touched has become a massive problem down the road.ATL Bear said:
Most overthrows aren't completed via a popular uprising, although Russia did it twice in the 20th Century, but by the coordination of the inner circle, in particular those who are military leaders. It's no coincidence top defense officials are "disappearing". That would hint that unity of efforts aren't all in sync. So hope exists beyond fantasy.
Im sure there are instances where it was worked but the list of rulers we preferred to the old ones is that failed is long and littered with terrible people. Sometimes the next guy really is worse than the last guy.ATL Bear said:Ah, misunderstood. You could argue we're effective at regime change, but the aftermath and nation building we've failed pretty badly, and many times complicated the situation even further.nein51 said:I dont mean regime change...I mean US involvement in regime change. As a rule pretty much every one we have touched has become a massive problem down the road.ATL Bear said:
Most overthrows aren't completed via a popular uprising, although Russia did it twice in the 20th Century, but by the coordination of the inner circle, in particular those who are military leaders. It's no coincidence top defense officials are "disappearing". That would hint that unity of efforts aren't all in sync. So hope exists beyond fantasy.
Dang, Doc. Have thought you were a rock solid poster until this thread. You have obviously bought into the extreme right fringe propaganda.Doc Holliday said:
You boomers are gonna be down for another prolonged war where we send billions to corrupt Ukrainians to fight corrupt Russians and then eventually send our own young men over there to die.
You're repeating MSM talking points, you're all in on WW3 and you have no idea what's actually going on.
Our country lied to us about Afghanistan and blew through $7 trillion and you're just gonna agree with those same people?!
No wonder our country is a mess, you guys have fallen for this villian vs superhero garbage your whole life.
If corruption in government is a litmus test for the citizens, then I guess we all deserve to die.
For the record, this war needs to end sooner than later. And I think it will.
You are correct about one thing. Our politicians will send trillions of dollars that we don't have to rebuild Ukraine.
And I thought the widespread Nazi/ White Supremacist thing was just a United States thing. Who knew?
"Stand with anyone when he is right; Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." - Abraham Lincoln
If being against war makes me wrong, I don't want to be right.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Dang, Doc. Have thought you were a rock solid poster until this thread. You have obviously bought into the extreme right fringe propaganda.Doc Holliday said:
You boomers are gonna be down for another prolonged war where we send billions to corrupt Ukrainians to fight corrupt Russians and then eventually send our own young men over there to die.
You're repeating MSM talking points, you're all in on WW3 and you have no idea what's actually going on.
Our country lied to us about Afghanistan and blew through $7 trillion and you're just gonna agree with those same people?!
No wonder our country is a mess, you guys have fallen for this villian vs superhero garbage your whole life.
If corruption in government is a litmus test for the citizens, then I guess we all deserve to die.
For the record, this war needs to end sooner than later. And I think it will.
You are correct about one thing. Our politicians will send trillions of dollars that we don't have to rebuild Ukraine.
You don't have to be pro Ukraine and anti Russian. You can be against both.
This whole mess is the culmination of decades of horrible policy and any move we make to remedy the situation is escalating us further towards war and dead US soldiers, why are you in favor of that?
You will feel differently if and when Putin comes for you and your family.Doc Holliday said:If being against war makes me wrong, I don't want to be right.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Dang, Doc. Have thought you were a rock solid poster until this thread. You have obviously bought into the extreme right fringe propaganda.Doc Holliday said:
You boomers are gonna be down for another prolonged war where we send billions to corrupt Ukrainians to fight corrupt Russians and then eventually send our own young men over there to die.
You're repeating MSM talking points, you're all in on WW3 and you have no idea what's actually going on.
Our country lied to us about Afghanistan and blew through $7 trillion and you're just gonna agree with those same people?!
No wonder our country is a mess, you guys have fallen for this villian vs superhero garbage your whole life.
If corruption in government is a litmus test for the citizens, then I guess we all deserve to die.
For the record, this war needs to end sooner than later. And I think it will.
You are correct about one thing. Our politicians will send trillions of dollars that we don't have to rebuild Ukraine.
You don't have to be pro Ukraine and anti Russian. You can be against both.
"Stand with anyone when he is right; Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." - Abraham Lincoln
Our getting involved in a regime change in Russia is the definition of insanity. As bad as their Army looks in Ukraine, keep in mind that they still possess 11 Boomers--Missile ships many of whom are normally hiding just off our coasts. Russians give the commanders on scene a great deal more command and control over nukes. Hopefully, US Navy has an idea where most of the Russian subs are and could take them out. Just one of them could take out 20 cities. Attacking the Russian homeland and trusting their Sub command to not retaliate would likely be the worst idea in human history.ATL Bear said:Ah, misunderstood. You could argue we're effective at regime change, but the aftermath and nation building we've failed pretty badly, and many times complicated the situation even further.nein51 said:I dont mean regime change...I mean US involvement in regime change. As a rule pretty much every one we have touched has become a massive problem down the road.ATL Bear said:
Most overthrows aren't completed via a popular uprising, although Russia did it twice in the 20th Century, but by the coordination of the inner circle, in particular those who are military leaders. It's no coincidence top defense officials are "disappearing". That would hint that unity of efforts aren't all in sync. So hope exists beyond fantasy.
Actually, I am with you about keeping our soldiers out of harms way. Putin is not going to stop until SOMEONE stops him. You can rest assured that Biden is not up to the task. We have forfeited our title of leader of the free world in a single election. We need to do all we can to facilitate that or we will have much greater problems ahead of us.Doc Holliday said:If being against war makes me wrong, I don't want to be right.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Dang, Doc. Have thought you were a rock solid poster until this thread. You have obviously bought into the extreme right fringe propaganda.Doc Holliday said:
You boomers are gonna be down for another prolonged war where we send billions to corrupt Ukrainians to fight corrupt Russians and then eventually send our own young men over there to die.
You're repeating MSM talking points, you're all in on WW3 and you have no idea what's actually going on.
Our country lied to us about Afghanistan and blew through $7 trillion and you're just gonna agree with those same people?!
No wonder our country is a mess, you guys have fallen for this villian vs superhero garbage your whole life.
If corruption in government is a litmus test for the citizens, then I guess we all deserve to die.
For the record, this war needs to end sooner than later. And I think it will.
You are correct about one thing. Our politicians will send trillions of dollars that we don't have to rebuild Ukraine.
You don't have to be pro Ukraine and anti Russian. You can be against both.
This whole mess is the culmination of decades of horrible policy and any move we make to remedy the situation is escalating us further towards war and dead US soldiers, why are you in favor of that?
"Stand with anyone when he is right; Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." - Abraham Lincoln
Your first sentence is nullified by your second: We can't stop Putin without putting our soldiers in harms way.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Actually, I am with you about keeping our soldiers out of harms way. Putin is not going to stop until SOMEONE stops him. We need to do all we can to facilitate that or we will have much greater problems ahead of us.Doc Holliday said:If being against war makes me wrong, I don't want to be right.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:Dang, Doc. Have thought you were a rock solid poster until this thread. You have obviously bought into the extreme right fringe propaganda.Doc Holliday said:
You boomers are gonna be down for another prolonged war where we send billions to corrupt Ukrainians to fight corrupt Russians and then eventually send our own young men over there to die.
You're repeating MSM talking points, you're all in on WW3 and you have no idea what's actually going on.
Our country lied to us about Afghanistan and blew through $7 trillion and you're just gonna agree with those same people?!
No wonder our country is a mess, you guys have fallen for this villian vs superhero garbage your whole life.
If corruption in government is a litmus test for the citizens, then I guess we all deserve to die.
For the record, this war needs to end sooner than later. And I think it will.
You are correct about one thing. Our politicians will send trillions of dollars that we don't have to rebuild Ukraine.
You don't have to be pro Ukraine and anti Russian. You can be against both.
This whole mess is the culmination of decades of horrible policy and any move we make to remedy the situation is escalating us further towards war and dead US soldiers, why are you in favor of that?
The point I'm trying to make is that if we assist Ukraine (which I understand, Putin is killing innocent civilians), that's a declaration of WW3. That means we have to send military and fight until Putin and Russia is blown off the map. That's a very long, expensive and deadly process.
There's no magical scenario where we stop Putin and don't start WW3.
We've been involved with regime change in Russia, China, and many other places for some time. People get more concerned when military action is involved because it's more overt and brings to light the policy of the under tide.TWD 74 said:Our getting involved in a regime change in Russia is the definition of insanity. As bad as their Army looks in Ukraine, keep in mind that they still possess 11 Boomers--Missile ships many of whom are normally hiding just off our coasts. Russians give the commanders on scene a great deal more command and control over nukes. Hopefully, US Navy has an idea where most of the Russian subs are and could take them out. Just one of them could take out 20 cities. Attacking the Russian homeland and trusting their Sub command to not retaliate would likely be the worst idea in human history.ATL Bear said:Ah, misunderstood. You could argue we're effective at regime change, but the aftermath and nation building we've failed pretty badly, and many times complicated the situation even further.nein51 said:I dont mean regime change...I mean US involvement in regime change. As a rule pretty much every one we have touched has become a massive problem down the road.ATL Bear said:
Most overthrows aren't completed via a popular uprising, although Russia did it twice in the 20th Century, but by the coordination of the inner circle, in particular those who are military leaders. It's no coincidence top defense officials are "disappearing". That would hint that unity of efforts aren't all in sync. So hope exists beyond fantasy.
This talk of nuclear war ignores the China factor, as I've expressed before. Nuclear war of the type you and others are speaking of is a world ender. Protocols to deal with MIRV or SLBM attacks against us or our allies doesn't involve just Russian targets, but would create first strikes against China as well as any party to this escalation. Putin may be desperate, but China is not. And while they have no love of the US, they love money and power more than war and conflict.
That being said, I'm certain no attack of the Russian homeland is in the offing outside of a direct attack on a NATO ally or the US. Hopefully we'll proxy this fight in Ukraine, and at some point Ukraine will acquiesce and give up some portion of Eastern Ukraine, and the rest of the world can move on. Or, Russia attempts to Afghanistan Ukraine, and is bogged down for years with extra military costs and economic sanctions. Either way, let's not get caught up in the well known bluster of Russian autocrats and their threats on the world.
US involvement in regime change has been in countries where we had strong intelligence presence and without the potential opposition by another nuclear power. Much as we would like to claim otherwise, our intelligence in China has been somewhat limited. As the Communist Party elite have maintained full control, I am not sure how we would pick a winner among the prospects. As for Russia, no one could ever get close enough to Stalin, and during 70s and early 80s, the Soviet Union was being run by the Politburo. Gorbachev ended up being a change agent but the Reagan Administration did not trust him at all at first. Yeltsin was a drunk who abruptly resigned for Putin. Not sure how or why we would ever get involved with that--to accomplish what?ATL Bear said:We've been involved with regime change in Russia, China, and many other places for some time. People get more concerned when military action is involved because it's more overt and brings to light the policy of the under tide.TWD 74 said:Our getting involved in a regime change in Russia is the definition of insanity. As bad as their Army looks in Ukraine, keep in mind that they still possess 11 Boomers--Missile ships many of whom are normally hiding just off our coasts. Russians give the commanders on scene a great deal more command and control over nukes. Hopefully, US Navy has an idea where most of the Russian subs are and could take them out. Just one of them could take out 20 cities. Attacking the Russian homeland and trusting their Sub command to not retaliate would likely be the worst idea in human history.ATL Bear said:Ah, misunderstood. You could argue we're effective at regime change, but the aftermath and nation building we've failed pretty badly, and many times complicated the situation even further.nein51 said:I dont mean regime change...I mean US involvement in regime change. As a rule pretty much every one we have touched has become a massive problem down the road.ATL Bear said:
Most overthrows aren't completed via a popular uprising, although Russia did it twice in the 20th Century, but by the coordination of the inner circle, in particular those who are military leaders. It's no coincidence top defense officials are "disappearing". That would hint that unity of efforts aren't all in sync. So hope exists beyond fantasy.
This talk of nuclear war ignores the China factor, as I've expressed before. Nuclear war of the type you and others are speaking of is a world ender. Protocols to deal with MIRV or SLBM attacks against us or our allies doesn't involve just Russian targets, but would create first strikes against China as well as any party to this escalation. Putin may be desperate, but China is not. And while they have no love of the US, they love money and power more than war and conflict.
That being said, I'm certain no attack of the Russian homeland is in the offing outside of a direct attack on a NATO ally or the US. Hopefully we'll proxy this fight in Ukraine, and at some point Ukraine will acquiesce and give up some portion of Eastern Ukraine, and the rest of the world can move on. Or, Russia attempts to Afghanistan Ukraine, and is bogged down for years with extra military costs and economic sanctions. Either way, let's not get caught up in the well known bluster of Russian autocrats and their threats on the world.
Yes, China would have to be consulted with any nuclear action, which remains a weapon of the very last resort, which would be considered only if Russia fired first. Chemical weapons might force NATO to create a no fire zone in Ukraine. Any escalation by Russians would be returned in kind. Saying a prayer it does not get that far.
TWD 74 said:US involvement in regime change has been in countries where we had strong intelligence presence and without the potential opposition by another nuclear power. Much as we would like to claim otherwise, our intelligence in China has been somewhat limited. As the Communist Party elite have maintained full control, I am not sure how we would pick a winner among the prospects. As for Russia, no one could ever get close enough to Stalin, and during 70s and early 80s, the Soviet Union was being run by the Politburo. Gorbachev ended up being a change agent but the Reagan Administration did not trust him at all at first. Yeltsin was a drunk who abruptly resigned for Putin. Not sure how or why we would ever get involved with that--to accomplish what?ATL Bear said:We've been involved with regime change in Russia, China, and many other places for some time. People get more concerned when military action is involved because it's more overt and brings to light the policy of the under tide.TWD 74 said:Our getting involved in a regime change in Russia is the definition of insanity. As bad as their Army looks in Ukraine, keep in mind that they still possess 11 Boomers--Missile ships many of whom are normally hiding just off our coasts. Russians give the commanders on scene a great deal more command and control over nukes. Hopefully, US Navy has an idea where most of the Russian subs are and could take them out. Just one of them could take out 20 cities. Attacking the Russian homeland and trusting their Sub command to not retaliate would likely be the worst idea in human history.ATL Bear said:Ah, misunderstood. You could argue we're effective at regime change, but the aftermath and nation building we've failed pretty badly, and many times complicated the situation even further.nein51 said:I dont mean regime change...I mean US involvement in regime change. As a rule pretty much every one we have touched has become a massive problem down the road.ATL Bear said:
Most overthrows aren't completed via a popular uprising, although Russia did it twice in the 20th Century, but by the coordination of the inner circle, in particular those who are military leaders. It's no coincidence top defense officials are "disappearing". That would hint that unity of efforts aren't all in sync. So hope exists beyond fantasy.
This talk of nuclear war ignores the China factor, as I've expressed before. Nuclear war of the type you and others are speaking of is a world ender. Protocols to deal with MIRV or SLBM attacks against us or our allies doesn't involve just Russian targets, but would create first strikes against China as well as any party to this escalation. Putin may be desperate, but China is not. And while they have no love of the US, they love money and power more than war and conflict.
That being said, I'm certain no attack of the Russian homeland is in the offing outside of a direct attack on a NATO ally or the US. Hopefully we'll proxy this fight in Ukraine, and at some point Ukraine will acquiesce and give up some portion of Eastern Ukraine, and the rest of the world can move on. Or, Russia attempts to Afghanistan Ukraine, and is bogged down for years with extra military costs and economic sanctions. Either way, let's not get caught up in the well known bluster of Russian autocrats and their threats on the world.
Yes, China would have to be consulted with any nuclear action, which remains a weapon of the very last resort, which would be considered only if Russia fired first. Chemical weapons might force NATO to create a no fire zone in Ukraine. Any escalation by Russians would be returned in kind. Saying a prayer it does not get that far.
Whenever that first bird flies, it is over. Regardless of whose bird flies first. Regardless of consultation or not.
Won't matter if they cannot hold that territory.Canada2017 said:Canon said:Canada2017 said:Might be 15....might be 3.Canon said:Canada2017 said:
So much wishful thinking .
Totally unverified estimates .
Reminds me of Walter Cronkite and this weekly Vietnam War 'body counts ' .
The more interesting count is how many high level officers have been lost. Last I saw it was 15.
Doubt Putin cares if the real number is 50 as long as Russia wins the war.
It includes 4 Generals in a month. That's crazy.
Not sure I would include colonels in such an assessment .
In any case its the Russians who are taking territory
Russia is learning the important difference between Chechnya and Ukraine.
The danger is if Putin takes the wrong lesson from it.
By the way, out of intellectual curiosity, what way do the winds blow in Ukraine right now?
That which does not kill me, will try again and get nastier
These numbers seem to be similar to what a Pro-Kremlin newspaper tweeted out and then deleted, blaming the post on hackers.
NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
A lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.cowboycwr said:NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
Expressing respect for an enemy is not an expression of fear
No he said that our top military leaders were afraid of Russia and a conventional war against them and did not believe we could win.Osodecentx said:A lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.cowboycwr said:NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
Expressing respect for an enemy is not an expression of fear
However, the military has known since the fall of the USSR that the military has been all show. The missiles they paraded through Red Square had no warheads in side them, they couldn't handle Chechnya, we have known for years their equipment is not on par with ours, etc.
And yes I have said so before.
It is why I keep brining up Canada's comments. He claimed they were a steamroller and I said they just had lots of soldiers that in today's military world does not mean much due to the advantages of technology, precision bombing, drones etc.
He claimed to know the mindset of our top military leaders and that Russia was a great army. He is being proven wrong but will not admit it.
I wasn't referencing Canada's alleged comments, although I note you don't have a link.cowboycwr said:No he said that our top military leaders were afraid of Russia and a conventional war against them and did not believe we could win.Osodecentx said:A lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.cowboycwr said:NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
Expressing respect for an enemy is not an expression of fear
However, the military has known since the fall of the USSR that the military has been all show. The missiles they paraded through Red Square had no warheads in side them, they couldn't handle Chechnya, we have known for years their equipment is not on par with ours, etc.
And yes I have said so before.
It is why I keep brining up Canada's comments. He claimed they were a steamroller and I said they just had lots of soldiers that in today's military world does not mean much due to the advantages of technology, precision bombing, drones etc.
He claimed to know the mindset of our top military leaders and that Russia was a great army. He is being proven wrong but will not admit it.
I was referencing your comments and I don't remember any concerning Russia's inept military. If you have, provide the link.
It is in the Thread about Trump claiming China is eyeing Taiwan.Osodecentx said:I wasn't referencing Canada's alleged comments, although I note you don't have a link.cowboycwr said:No he said that our top military leaders were afraid of Russia and a conventional war against them and did not believe we could win.Osodecentx said:A lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.cowboycwr said:NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
Expressing respect for an enemy is not an expression of fear
However, the military has known since the fall of the USSR that the military has been all show. The missiles they paraded through Red Square had no warheads in side them, they couldn't handle Chechnya, we have known for years their equipment is not on par with ours, etc.
And yes I have said so before.
It is why I keep brining up Canada's comments. He claimed they were a steamroller and I said they just had lots of soldiers that in today's military world does not mean much due to the advantages of technology, precision bombing, drones etc.
He claimed to know the mindset of our top military leaders and that Russia was a great army. He is being proven wrong but will not admit it.
I was referencing your comments and I don't remember any concerning Russia's inept military. If you have, provide the link.
I am not going to go looking for it, but he and I exchanged several posts in which he claimed that NATO could not compete with Russia in a conventional land war. His default position is that America is done. I think he enjoys the doom and gloom.Osodecentx said:A lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.cowboycwr said:NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
Expressing respect for an enemy is not an expression of fear
I haven't referenced Canada in any of my posts.Booray said:I am not going to go looking for it, but he and I exchanged several posts in which he claimed that Nato could not compete with Russia in a convectional land war. His default position is that America is done. I think he enjoys the doom and gloom.Osodecentx said:A lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.cowboycwr said:NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
Expressing respect for an enemy is not an expression of fear
lAgain, a lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you or Doc posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.
I was responding to this:Osodecentx said:I haven't referenced Canada in any of my posts.Booray said:I am not going to go looking for it, but he and I exchanged several posts in which he claimed that Nato could not compete with Russia in a convectional land war. His default position is that America is done. I think he enjoys the doom and gloom.Osodecentx said:A lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.cowboycwr said:NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
Expressing respect for an enemy is not an expression of fear
lAgain, a lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you or Doc posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.
I wasn't referencing Canada's alleged comments, although I note you don't have a link.
OkayBooray said:I was responding to this:Osodecentx said:I haven't referenced Canada in any of my posts.Booray said:I am not going to go looking for it, but he and I exchanged several posts in which he claimed that Nato could not compete with Russia in a convectional land war. His default position is that America is done. I think he enjoys the doom and gloom.Osodecentx said:A lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.cowboycwr said:NO this cannot be.RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:This kinda reminds me of Desert Storm back in 1991. Iraq's vaunted Republican Guard was supposedly one of the largest and well trained fighting forces in the world. American Forces dimantled and destroyed them in a number of days. One thing we NEVER heard during this war were Iraqi casualty numbers. I have read since that the number of dead was around 110,000.Osodecentx said:
Can this be correct?
NATO Estimates Steep Russian Losses in Ukraine as Biden Heads to Europe
Russia may have lost up to one-fifth of its combat force in Ukraine, alliance officials say
NATO estimates Russia may have lost as much as one-fifth of its combat forces in about a month of fighting in Ukraine as President Biden and alliance leaders gather in Brussels for a summit to discuss providing further support to Kyiv to repel the Russian invasion.
Up to 40,000 Russian troops have been killed, wounded, taken prisoner or are missing in Ukraine, said a senior military official from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Russia may also have lost 10% of its equipment, impairing Moscow's ability to maintain its pace of operations, said another NATO official.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-humanitarian-crisis-worsens-as-biden-heads-to-europe-11648031069
It appears the Russian Army was grossly overrated. I would bet their forces that were sent in the first wave were conscripts that had very little training. And their hearts were probably not in this fight. I feel for the parents!
Putin may be getting very desperate. He has embarrassed himself and his country on the world stage. I hope and pray that chemical and/ or nuclear weapons don't come into play.
Canada on here said that the Russian army is sooooo good that our military fears them and would not be able to compete in a conventional war with them.
There is no way that they could have been a paper tiger that looked tough, had the numbers, plenty of tanks, and weapons but not the training, supplies, etc. to fight an effective war because he just KNEW that our military leaders did not know they were not well trained, not well supplied and not an effective army. He just knew that our top military was scared of them.
Expressing respect for an enemy is not an expression of fear
lAgain, a lot of smart people overestimated the Russian military. I don't remember you or Doc posting anything on how inept the Russian military has been; maybe you can refresh my memory.
I wasn't referencing Canada's alleged comments, although I note you don't have a link.
I have read that our Green Berets have been training the Ukrainians since the fall of Crimea. Maybe this is paying dividends now.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-armys-green-berets-have-lasting-impact-on-fight-in-ukraine
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-armys-green-berets-have-lasting-impact-on-fight-in-ukraine
They bagged the latest General taking back Kherson, which I believe had been the only major city the Russians held, and a key obstacle on the way west from Crimea to Odesa.
A list of the 7 Russian generals killed in action so far in Russia's war against Ukraine, according to western officials:
— Deborah Haynes (@haynesdeborah) March 25, 2022
- Army Commander Major General Andrey Mordvich, 8 Combined Arms Army, Southern Military District
1/