Really horrific stuff in here... Prayers for healing.

My thoughts on the horrifying revelations today about the SBC Executive Committee. https://t.co/dwJGF0mjV5

— Russell Moore (@drmoore) May 22, 2022

Unbelievable really. Healing for all. Trust in the Lord not man.

I thought this was going to be ugly.

Turned out to be far uglier than I thought.

Makes the "Conservative Resurgence" Look like the sham it was.

So very many lies and coverups.

Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

"... how many children were raped, how many people were assaulted, how many screams were silenced, while we boasted that no one could reach the world for Jesus like we could." Or, said another way, 'I thank you, God, that I am not like other peoplecheaters, sinners, adulterers. I'm certainly not like that Catholic, I mean tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.'

I really like the way the parable ends, "For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted." It's similar to how this story ends.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

---

Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

Canada2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

---

Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

---

The outrage in the case of Southern Baptists is not simply that sexual abuse occurred, it is that those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue. It is all the more outrageous because this was in character for these men.

The fundamentalist takeover of the SBC (let us call it what it was) was a series of evil acts from the beginning. It was not led by the Spirit of God as evidenced by the actions of those carrying it out. From the beginning this was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, and it left a chilling question hanging in the air: if these men would carry out the kind of pro-Satan, power-grabbing actions they were doing publicly and without shame, what would they be willing to do to protect their power and privilege when they believed no one was watching? What they did in these cases of sexual abuse, therefore, comes as a devastating, stomach-turning shock but not a great surprise.

In a broader view, however, these particular men are not unique and their particular brand of wrong-headed theology is not a unique cause of their evil. This drive to protect power and image over people infects every every human power structure, whether they are schools, government agencies, political parties or churches, and when churches substitute human principles for Christian principles, no matter their presumed motivations, disaster follows as surely as the sun rises in the East.

Canada2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

---

Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

---

This isn't just Internet info.

It's the findings of the investigation the SBC itself ordered.

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

---

Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

---

The outrage in the case of Southern Baptists is not simply that sexual abuse occurred, it is that those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue. It is all the more outrageous because this was in character for these men.

The fundamentalist takeover of the SBC (let us call it what it was) was a series of evil acts from the beginning. It was not led by the Spirit of God as evidenced by the actions of those carrying it out. From the beginning this was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, and it left a chilling question hanging in the air: if these men would carry out the kind of pro-Satan, power-grabbing actions they were doing publicly and without shame, what would they be willing to do to protect their power and privilege when they believed no one was watching? What they did in these cases of sexual abuse, therefore, comes as a devastating, stomach-turning shock but not a great surprise.

In a broader view, however, these particular men are not unique and their particular brand of wrong-headed theology is not a unique cause of their evil. This drive to protect power and image over people infects every every human power structure, whether they are schools, government agencies, political parties or churches, and when churches substitute human principles for Christian principles, no matter their presumed motivations, disaster follows as surely as the sun rises in the East.

---

Well put.

The takeover was never really about inerrancy or abortion or any of that. It was about wielding power and forcing people to comply.

Some things are just impossible to understand.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Some things are just impossible to understand.

---

Sadly, if you knew these men, you would.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Some things are just impossible to understand.

---

This was not only possible to understand in retrospect, but predictable based on how these men acted in their public statements and actions. If you had asked me 30 years ago if these men would hide sex abuse crimes to protect their power, I would have said, "Yes, without a doubt."

Why on earth would you keep a database of all the crimes your organization has committed?

BylrFan said:

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Why on earth would you keep a database of all the crimes your organization has committed?

---

Because is the right thing to do for the people your organization serves.

D. C. Bear said:

---

BylrFan said:

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Why on earth would you keep a database of all the crimes your organization has committed?

---

Because is the right thing to do for the people your organization serves.

---

Yes if deployed properly... in this case it was used to keep secrets not bring transparency...

BylrFan said:

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Why on earth would you keep a database of all the crimes your organization has committed?

---

Yea,

Keeping the list of people accused of crimes was not the problem.

Keeping the list hidden from the Congregations and the average Baptist church goes was....

Of course we here were not apart of that decision making process, so we can't know 100% why, but I would bet dollars to donuts that some lawyers were reasonable (or partly responsible) for that decision.

Muh "liability"

BylrFan said:

---

Why on earth would you keep a database of all the crimes your organization has committed?

---

When I was active in the state Baptist Convention of Texas, we began to keep a database of ministers who had confessed and/or been convicted of sexual crimes.

The purpose was to be a resource for churches that were calling (hiring) ministers.

Legal counsel told us we could be sued for keeping or for not keeping such a list.

We decided to keep such a list because it was the right thing to do.

In the case of the SBC, it's odd that they kept a list but did nothing with it. Other than lie about the ability to compile one.

C. Jordan said:

---

BylrFan said:

---

Why on earth would you keep a database of all the crimes your organization has committed?

---

When I was active in the state Baptist Convention of Texas, we began to keep a database of ministers who had confessed and/or been convicted of sexual crimes.

The purpose was to be a resource for churches that were calling (hiring) ministers.

Legal counsel told us we could be sued for keeping or for not keeping such a list.

We decided to keep such a list because it was the right thing to do.

In the case of the SBC, it's odd that they kept a list but did nothing with it. Other than lie about the ability to compile one.

---

This makes way too much sense although I understand HR law gets so wonky. Basically, as I understand it, there pretty much only a binary eligible / not eligible for rehire is about all that can be shared (in the corporate world not ecclesiastical world).

Seems like a pretty important resource would be alerting churches to problematic or dangerous potential pastors.

This is the same problem we have seen in many other situations.

People who are abusing authority are not punished, because of the fear of public backlash.

We've all seen this in politics, education, business, churches, charities... pretty much any organization imaginable has had this same scenario.

The real problem is that it is too easy to fear the loss of authority, and to fear it more than you value integrity.

As long as human beings are at the top of an organization, we will continue to see cover-ups. I wish it weren't true, but it is the reality.

These leaders need to be severely punished for the cover-up, and those who committed the crimes need to be punished as well. It won't stop this from happening again, but it is the only just thing to do.

This should serve as yet another warning to anyone involved in any organization... there is NO substitute for TRUE accountability and transparency. If you ask your leaders (in church or any other organization) for an open review of the budget/accounts/etc. and they refuse... then you need to launch an immediate investigation and/or remove yourself from them as fast as possible. Nothing good happens in secret. When good people try to keep things "private", they are setting themselves up for disaster.

BornAgain said:

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Unbelievable really. Healing for all. Trust in the Lord not man.

---

Lets face it, those positions attract those that are called to do good and those to serve their own desires. They all should be prosecuted forcactions taken.

I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

---

Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

---

The outrage in the case of Southern Baptists is not simply that sexual abuse occurred, it is that those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue. It is all the more outrageous because this was in character for these men.

The fundamentalist takeover of the SBC (let us call it what it was) was a series of evil acts from the beginning. It was not led by the Spirit of God as evidenced by the actions of those carrying it out. From the beginning this was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, and it left a chilling question hanging in the air: if these men would carry out the kind of pro-Satan, power-grabbing actions they were doing publicly and without shame, what would they be willing to do to protect their power and privilege when they believed no one was watching? What they did in these cases of sexual abuse, therefore, comes as a devastating, stomach-turning shock but not a great surprise.

In a broader view, however, these particular men are not unique and their particular brand of wrong-headed theology is not a unique cause of their evil. This drive to protect power and image over people infects every every human power structure, whether they are schools, government agencies, political parties or churches, and when churches substitute human principles for Christian principles, no matter their presumed motivations, disaster follows as surely as the sun rises in the East.

---

"those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue."

This happened in the Catholic Church, too. I would argue that those who covered up the abuses meted out by pedophile priests assigned to parishes and sexually abusive or sadistic priests and nuns working at religious institutions for children are no better, but no worse, than those who covered up for the abuses that occurred within evangelical congregations and children's camps.

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

---

Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

---

Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

---

If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

J.B.Katz said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

---

Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

---

If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

---

I'm excusing nothing. I'm calling out your excitement over the failures of people you despise.

C. Jordan said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

---

Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

---

The outrage in the case of Southern Baptists is not simply that sexual abuse occurred, it is that those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue. It is all the more outrageous because this was in character for these men.

The fundamentalist takeover of the SBC (let us call it what it was) was a series of evil acts from the beginning. It was not led by the Spirit of God as evidenced by the actions of those carrying it out. From the beginning this was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, and it left a chilling question hanging in the air: if these men would carry out the kind of pro-Satan, power-grabbing actions they were doing publicly and without shame, what would they be willing to do to protect their power and privilege when they believed no one was watching? What they did in these cases of sexual abuse, therefore, comes as a devastating, stomach-turning shock but not a great surprise.

In a broader view, however, these particular men are not unique and their particular brand of wrong-headed theology is not a unique cause of their evil. This drive to protect power and image over people infects every every human power structure, whether they are schools, government agencies, political parties or churches, and when churches substitute human principles for Christian principles, no matter their presumed motivations, disaster follows as surely as the sun rises in the East.

---

Well put.

The takeover was never really about inerrancy or abortion or any of that. It was about wielding power and forcing people to comply.

---

Much like the Democrat party. Well said.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

---

Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

---

If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

---

I'm excusing nothing. I'm calling out your excitement over the failures of people you despise.

---

You should see her at baby showers.

J.B.Katz said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Canada2017 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

---

Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

---

The outrage in the case of Southern Baptists is not simply that sexual abuse occurred, it is that those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue. It is all the more outrageous because this was in character for these men.

The fundamentalist takeover of the SBC (let us call it what it was) was a series of evil acts from the beginning. It was not led by the Spirit of God as evidenced by the actions of those carrying it out. From the beginning this was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, and it left a chilling question hanging in the air: if these men would carry out the kind of pro-Satan, power-grabbing actions they were doing publicly and without shame, what would they be willing to do to protect their power and privilege when they believed no one was watching? What they did in these cases of sexual abuse, therefore, comes as a devastating, stomach-turning shock but not a great surprise.

In a broader view, however, these particular men are not unique and their particular brand of wrong-headed theology is not a unique cause of their evil. This drive to protect power and image over people infects every every human power structure, whether they are schools, government agencies, political parties or churches, and when churches substitute human principles for Christian principles, no matter their presumed motivations, disaster follows as surely as the sun rises in the East.

---

"those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue."

This happened in the Catholic Church, too. I would argue that those who covered up the abuses meted out by pedophile priests assigned to parishes and sexually abusive or sadistic priests and nuns working at religious institutions for children are no better, but no worse, than those who covered up for the abuses that occurred within evangelical congregations and children's camps.

---

It happens virtually everywhere there is abuse with the potential that the revelation of that abuse will lead to negative impact on the institution involved. Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, public schools, private schools, movie studios, and so on.

Your assertion that "nothing will be done" is somewhat misinformed. At the church we attend, those of us who work with children undergo state background checks and we have a robust child protection policy in place. While a crime could happen, it is much less likely with those safeguards for children (and adults) in place. This has been the case there for a couple of decades or more. We also don't hire ministers who mistake themselves for God when they look in the mirror. That makes a difference.

You decided to bring abortion in to the thread, but this topic is about the victims of abuse that have already been born. Those who haven't been born you have no care for because, like the leaders of these churches you despise, you place a higher value on something other than the good of the weak and helpless in the face of those who would destroy them in body or spirit or both.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

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Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

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If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

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I'm excusing nothing. I'm calling out your excitement over the failures of people you despise.

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You're ignoring my points that

(1) you all realize this is very bad, and that what happened is completely unacceptable, but that

(2) you'll do what many Catholics (the ones who didn't leave the church--and a few did) did when the pervasiveness of abuse by priests and, in a few cases, nuns, of women and children in congregations, schools and Catholic institutions, including homes for unwed mothers, came to light: Express shock and horror, as you have on this thread, and then you'll quickly move on.

Very little about your personal activities or the way your church is organized or the systems that allowed the abuse to occur and enabled the cover-ups will change.

I suspect the congregational structure of evangelical churches will make it more difficult for civil suits to have the impact they've had on the Catholic church, because of this:

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/18/639698062/the-clergy-abuse-crisis-has-cost-the-catholic-church-3-billion

"The lawsuits have targeted dioceses and religious orders, not parishes, because individual Catholic congregations have little authority over their priests. The diocesan assets at stake in the ongoing cases include cash, stocks, land and buildings, in addition to insurance payouts."

However, you will have less credibility going forward as people capable of leading anyone outside of your congregation to the Way, the Truth and the Light. If you truly ever cared about that.

And some of you will serve on boards that will vote to minimize your exposure to paying damages to abuse victims by shifting assets around:

https://www.abi.org/newsroom/bankruptcy-brief/catholic-church-shields-2-billion-in-assets-to-limit-abuse-payouts

A Bloomberg Businessweek review of court filings by lawyers for churches and victims in the past 15 years shows that the U.S. Catholic Church has shielded more than $2 billion in assets from abuse victims in diocesan bankruptcies. "The survivors should have gotten that money, and they didn't," says Terry McKiernan, president of BishopAccountability.org.

The unfolding of one diocese's bankruptcy provides a road map for what may come as more go this route. The chapter 11 filing of the Archdiocese in Santa Fe shows how easy and routine it is to reconfigure a balance sheet. The archdiocese was facing a few dozen clergy abuse suits when it filed in December 2018, saying that it was too poor to defend itself. The number rose to about 375 by the June 2019 deadline that the bankruptcy court had set for victims to file claims.

In court papers, the archdiocese reported owning $49 million in real estate, cash, and investments. By contrast, the church's 1951 incorporation papers put its estimated value at $40 million, or $396 million in today's dollars. To arrive at that $49 million figure, church leaders said at least $178 million in cash and property associated with the archdiocese was owned by parishes or held in a trust or foundation and thus wasn't eligible for inclusion in the estate.

James Stang, lead lawyer for the alleged clergy abuse victims in the bankruptcy, wrote in a June court filing that the incorporations and transfers were made with the intent to "hinder, delay, or defraud" the claimants.

J. Ford Elsaesser, an archdiocese lawyer, disputes accusations that the archdiocese shuffled assets to keep money from claimants. The relationship between the church and its parishes is like that between an adult child and an elderly parent who can no longer handle his affairs, he says: "The property is yours in name, but it's not your money." He says that bankruptcy is the best venue for settling large numbers of abuse claims in part because it makes for a fairer distribution of finite church assets, with all victims sharing the money in an orderly way instead of it being quickly scooped up by victims who file claims first.

Harrison Bergeron said:

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C. Jordan said:

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BylrFan said:

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Why on earth would you keep a database of all the crimes your organization has committed?

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When I was active in the state Baptist Convention of Texas, we began to keep a database of ministers who had confessed and/or been convicted of sexual crimes.

The purpose was to be a resource for churches that were calling (hiring) ministers.

Legal counsel told us we could be sued for keeping or for not keeping such a list.

We decided to keep such a list because it was the right thing to do.

In the case of the SBC, it's odd that they kept a list but did nothing with it. Other than lie about the ability to compile one.

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This makes way too much sense although I understand HR law gets so wonky. Basically, as I understand it, there pretty much only a binary eligible / not eligible for rehire is about all that can be shared (in the corporate world not ecclesiastical world).

Seems like a pretty important resource would be alerting churches to problematic or dangerous potential pastors.

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We were told we had to be careful because there's some kind of law about "restraint of employment." But we felt we were okay where we were.

The bad part was that the list was only good if churches called to inquire. We didn't have a system to track them and report them to perspective churches. Even if we did, we could run afoul of the law.

GrowlTowel said:

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C. Jordan said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

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Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

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The outrage in the case of Southern Baptists is not simply that sexual abuse occurred, it is that those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue. It is all the more outrageous because this was in character for these men.

The fundamentalist takeover of the SBC (let us call it what it was) was a series of evil acts from the beginning. It was not led by the Spirit of God as evidenced by the actions of those carrying it out. From the beginning this was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, and it left a chilling question hanging in the air: if these men would carry out the kind of pro-Satan, power-grabbing actions they were doing publicly and without shame, what would they be willing to do to protect their power and privilege when they believed no one was watching? What they did in these cases of sexual abuse, therefore, comes as a devastating, stomach-turning shock but not a great surprise.

In a broader view, however, these particular men are not unique and their particular brand of wrong-headed theology is not a unique cause of their evil. This drive to protect power and image over people infects every every human power structure, whether they are schools, government agencies, political parties or churches, and when churches substitute human principles for Christian principles, no matter their presumed motivations, disaster follows as surely as the sun rises in the East.

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Well put.

The takeover was never really about inerrancy or abortion or any of that. It was about wielding power and forcing people to comply.

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Much like the Democrat party. Well said.

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Both political parties are about power. Hence the word "political," which refers to the exercise of power.

J.B.Katz said:

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I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

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There's an interesting battle shaping up at this year's SBC.

There's a group called "The Conservative Baptist Network" who feel the current extremely conservative SBC isn't conservative enough. They're particularly concerned that the SBC is getting wobbly on women and a number of those on the SBC Executive Committee who are part of this network who tried to squelch the investigation.

This Network is running candidates for SBC President and President of the Pastor's Conference. The candidate for the Pastor's Conference is Voddie Baucum, who feels that women should stay at home and shouldn't get college degrees.

If the Conservative Network prevails, it's unlikely the Guidepost's recommendations will be implemented. If it loses, then they might.

However, the Convention has shown a mind of its own on this issue, and they may force compliance with the recommendations no matter what.

Get your popcorn in mid-June! It could be a donnybrook!

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

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Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

---

If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

---

I'm excusing nothing. I'm calling out your excitement over the failures of people you despise.

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Well said .

Losers love company .

J.B.Katz said:

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Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

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What are you talking about? If you are talking about jail time, then sadly yes, few were convicted (many are now dead). Someone eluded to it in another post that people fail to report.

The Church has bettered itself in preventing abuse.

Since the major outing of these cases, most of the Dioceses have conducted investigations and made their reports and findings public.

• The Church now has a Zero-tolerance policy with respect to any convicted abuser is immediately defrocked. No coming back from that.
• Every person that works in ministry with youth and/or the elderly are required to attend an Ethics in Ministry training and undergo background checks. We have to recertify every three years.
• The Church, much like the Boy Scouts, insist on two-deep leadership. If a teen wants to discuss something in private with me (or another adult), we have to obtain a second adult to sit in the room.
• The Church follows strict rules and laws with respect to reporting any potential abuse that she may recognize outside of the Church (usually family or friends.)

The policies have been so helpful that other religious (non-Catholic) and secular organizations have approached the Church to learn how they have significantly reduced the claims that are incredibly below the national average, but are sadly inevitable due to the fallen nature of man.

I understand your frustration and anger with the Church. You've noted it here (MANY times.) I can assure you that many of us Catholics are more outraged, angered, and frustrated with those abusers and those that hid the abuse, than you or others outside the Church.

At the end of the day, I'm not leaving Jesus because of Judas.

This is horrific and not totally unexpected to me. I have been pointing out to my wife for a while
what I see as power abuses even in our local church. No I don't believe any sexual abuse has been going on,
but I see what I feel is a rotten corporate structure, that creates celebrity out of church leaders and sainthood
memberships for their child family members, even if they incorrigible little ****s.

If you are totally failing at the little things, you are bound to be failing at the big things. I think that is what is at
issue in way too may SBC churches. You know some or even a lot of them are good places of worship, way too many are corrupt though. Time for the upper levels of the organization as whole to repent in sackcloth and ashes. Unfortunately I doubt it happens.