GrowlTowel said:

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C. Jordan said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Canada2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Makes Catholics look like a starter kit

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Don't judge solely based on 'revelations' found only on the internet.

People are presumed to be innocent unless found guilty in a court of law .

Despite the intense publicity such scandals generate when found within the Christian community……….statistics suggest similar outrages are more common involving teachers and school administrators.

Yet the national media doesn't spotlight such realities with the same intensity or indignation.

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The outrage in the case of Southern Baptists is not simply that sexual abuse occurred, it is that those who could and should have done something about helping victims of that abuse and reducing its incidence going forward instead took actions to damage the victims themselves and to make such abuses more likely to continue. It is all the more outrageous because this was in character for these men.

The fundamentalist takeover of the SBC (let us call it what it was) was a series of evil acts from the beginning. It was not led by the Spirit of God as evidenced by the actions of those carrying it out. From the beginning this was clear to anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, and it left a chilling question hanging in the air: if these men would carry out the kind of pro-Satan, power-grabbing actions they were doing publicly and without shame, what would they be willing to do to protect their power and privilege when they believed no one was watching? What they did in these cases of sexual abuse, therefore, comes as a devastating, stomach-turning shock but not a great surprise.

In a broader view, however, these particular men are not unique and their particular brand of wrong-headed theology is not a unique cause of their evil. This drive to protect power and image over people infects every every human power structure, whether they are schools, government agencies, political parties or churches, and when churches substitute human principles for Christian principles, no matter their presumed motivations, disaster follows as surely as the sun rises in the East.

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Well put.

The takeover was never really about inerrancy or abortion or any of that. It was about wielding power and forcing people to comply.

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Much like the Democrat party. Well said.

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"Democrat party." Enough said.

Coke Bear said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

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What are you talking about? If you are talking about jail time, then sadly yes, few were convicted (many are now dead). Someone eluded to it in another post that people fail to report.

The Church has bettered itself in preventing abuse.

Since the major outing of these cases, most of the Dioceses have conducted investigations and made their reports and findings public.

• The Church now has a Zero-tolerance policy with respect to any convicted abuser is immediately defrocked. No coming back from that.
• Every person that works in ministry with youth and/or the elderly are required to attend an Ethics in Ministry training and undergo background checks. We have to recertify every three years.
• The Church, much like the Boy Scouts, insist on two-deep leadership. If a teen wants to discuss something in private with me (or another adult), we have to obtain a second adult to sit in the room.
• The Church follows strict rules and laws with respect to reporting any potential abuse that she may recognize outside of the Church (usually family or friends.)

The policies have been so helpful that other religious (non-Catholic) and secular organizations have approached the Church to learn how they have significantly reduced the claims that are incredibly below the national average, but are sadly inevitable due to the fallen nature of man.

I understand your frustration and anger with the Church. You've noted it here (MANY times.) I can assure you that many of us Catholics are more outraged, angered, and frustrated with those abusers and those that hid the abuse, than you or others outside the Church.

At the end of the day, I'm not leaving Jesus because of Judas.

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This is a great mesage. We don't have to agree on everything Biblical, but very glad to see the Catholic Church is now a leader in trying to prevent any kind of abuse. The day of the cover up should be long over at all church organizations and denominations. Very glad to see the Catholic church leading the way.

C. Jordan said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

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There's an interesting battle shaping up at this year's SBC.

There's a group called "The Conservative Baptist Network" who feel the current extremely conservative SBC isn't conservative enough. They're particularly concerned that the SBC is getting wobbly on women and a number of those on the SBC Executive Committee who are part of this network who tried to squelch the investigation.

This Network is running candidates for SBC President and President of the Pastor's Conference. The candidate for the Pastor's Conference is Voddie Baucum, who feels that women should stay at home and shouldn't get college degrees.

If the Conservative Network prevails, it's unlikely the Guidepost's recommendations will be implemented. If it loses, then they might.

However, the Convention has shown a mind of its own on this issue, and they may force compliance with the recommendations no matter what.

Get your popcorn in mid-June! It could be a donnybrook!

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Religious sects that don't value education for women--fundamentalist/Taliban/Wahabi Muslims, ultraorthodox Jews, FLDS Mormons, Quiverfull, Jehovah's Witnesses & plenty of smaller, less-well-known entities headed by guys like Voddie Baucum--are generally not worried about the abuse of women or children.

How probable do you think it is that the CBN candidates will prevail?

I have tremendous respect for Russell Moore and Beth Moore, and when they left the SBC I was concerned that a conservative church would take a mean turn. I'll be interested to see what impact this report has. But, after watching the Catholic Church try all sorts of underhanded tactics that included blaming the victims, claiming that the perps of abuse were homosexual priests (a twofer, since it condemned a group the Catholic church already reviled and shifted the blame from the priesthood to people the Church had already labeled as egregious sinners), lawyering up, using proprietary canon law to obstruct prosecution of known perps within the priestly ranks, and hiding assets, I'm not optimistic.

Powerful orgs tend to close ranks when threatened, and introspection isn't a valued commodity in fundamentalist circles; your conscience and your beliefs are supposed to be dictated from without, by your designated church leader's interpretation of the Bible rather than your own, and you're supposed to trust and obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus, or so the hymn goes.

J.B.Katz said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

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Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

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If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

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I'm excusing nothing. I'm calling out your excitement over the failures of people you despise.

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You're ignoring my points that

(1) you all realize this is very bad, and that what happened is completely unacceptable, but that

(2) you'll do what many Catholics (the ones who didn't leave the church--and a few did) did when the pervasiveness of abuse by priests and, in a few cases, nuns, of women and children in congregations, schools and Catholic institutions, including homes for unwed mothers, came to light: Express shock and horror, as you have on this thread, and then you'll quickly move on.

Very little about your personal activities or the way your church is organized or the systems that allowed the abuse to occur and enabled the cover-ups will change.

I suspect the congregational structure of evangelical churches will make it more difficult for civil suits to have the impact they've had on the Catholic church, because of this:

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/18/639698062/the-clergy-abuse-crisis-has-cost-the-catholic-church-3-billion

"The lawsuits have targeted dioceses and religious orders, not parishes, because individual Catholic congregations have little authority over their priests. The diocesan assets at stake in the ongoing cases include cash, stocks, land and buildings, in addition to insurance payouts."

However, you will have less credibility going forward as people capable of leading anyone outside of your congregation to the Way, the Truth and the Light. If you truly ever cared about that.

And some of you will serve on boards that will vote to minimize your exposure to paying damages to abuse victims by shifting assets around:

https://www.abi.org/newsroom/bankruptcy-brief/catholic-church-shields-2-billion-in-assets-to-limit-abuse-payouts

A Bloomberg Businessweek review of court filings by lawyers for churches and victims in the past 15 years shows that the U.S. Catholic Church has shielded more than $2 billion in assets from abuse victims in diocesan bankruptcies. "The survivors should have gotten that money, and they didn't," says Terry McKiernan, president of BishopAccountability.org.

The unfolding of one diocese's bankruptcy provides a road map for what may come as more go this route. The chapter 11 filing of the Archdiocese in Santa Fe shows how easy and routine it is to reconfigure a balance sheet. The archdiocese was facing a few dozen clergy abuse suits when it filed in December 2018, saying that it was too poor to defend itself. The number rose to about 375 by the June 2019 deadline that the bankruptcy court had set for victims to file claims.

In court papers, the archdiocese reported owning $49 million in real estate, cash, and investments. By contrast, the church's 1951 incorporation papers put its estimated value at $40 million, or $396 million in today's dollars. To arrive at that $49 million figure, church leaders said at least $178 million in cash and property associated with the archdiocese was owned by parishes or held in a trust or foundation and thus wasn't eligible for inclusion in the estate.

James Stang, lead lawyer for the alleged clergy abuse victims in the bankruptcy, wrote in a June court filing that the incorporations and transfers were made with the intent to "hinder, delay, or defraud" the claimants.

J. Ford Elsaesser, an archdiocese lawyer, disputes accusations that the archdiocese shuffled assets to keep money from claimants. The relationship between the church and its parishes is like that between an adult child and an elderly parent who can no longer handle his affairs, he says: "The property is yours in name, but it's not your money." He says that bankruptcy is the best venue for settling large numbers of abuse claims in part because it makes for a fairer distribution of finite church assets, with all victims sharing the money in an orderly way instead of it being quickly scooped up by victims who file claims first.

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you've no clue what any of us (evangelicals who post here) do and don't do. You choose to take the worst situations and turn them into your broad brush which, you then use to paint everyone as the same shade.

You should try a little introspection and understand that many others have been doing that for years.

J.B.Katz said:

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"The lawsuits have targeted dioceses and religious orders, not parishes, because individual Catholic congregations have little authority over their priests. The diocesan assets at stake in the ongoing cases include cash, stocks, land and buildings, in addition to insurance payouts."

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You have really no clue what you are talking about.

Lawsuits target the dioceses because the Bishop owns all the parishes (land and buildings) of his diocese.

The only thing the church might own is the computers, some furniture and maybe a church van. Heck, they probably lease the copier.

You claim that people express outrage and move on. That may be the case for some, maybe most. But there are many good Catholics that do demand accountability of the Church. They serve both inside and outside of the Church to ensure this.

For most of us, that's NOT our charism. Many don't have the bandwidth for that. I've work with the youth at my parish for a dozen years. My tiny piece of the puzzle is to ensure that our teens are safe and taught the tenants of the faith.

If you are this upset, and rightly so, please join one of those organizations that demand accountability. I would appreciate that greatly.

J.B.Katz said:

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claiming that the perps of abuse were homosexual priests (a twofer, since it condemned a group the Catholic church already reviled and shifted the blame from the priesthood to people the Church had already labeled as egregious sinners),

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This is my last post in response to your inaccurate claims about the Catholic Church. I'm finished letting myself get trolled the same things that you have spouted over the last few years.

If your claim (bolded above) is an attempt to state that the Church blamed the homosexuals lay people in the Church, then you are a sad individual. Is it possible that it happened in a isolated case or two? I suppose, but there was no massive cover up to "Blame the gays."

With respect to the homosexual priests, the John Jay report stated that approximately 86% of the abused were post-pubescent males. Any abuse of a minor is wrong. The evil priests that did this suffered from same-sex attraction. Sadly, the Church was infiltrated with them in the 50's thru the 80's.

Today, the Church will not admit any man to the seminary will same-sex attraction. The candidates undergo at least 4 rounds of psychological testing to help ensure that they are suited to the priesthood.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

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Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

---

If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

---

I'm excusing nothing. I'm calling out your excitement over the failures of people you despise.

---

You're ignoring my points that

(1) you all realize this is very bad, and that what happened is completely unacceptable, but that

(2) you'll do what many Catholics (the ones who didn't leave the church--and a few did) did when the pervasiveness of abuse by priests and, in a few cases, nuns, of women and children in congregations, schools and Catholic institutions, including homes for unwed mothers, came to light: Express shock and horror, as you have on this thread, and then you'll quickly move on.

Very little about your personal activities or the way your church is organized or the systems that allowed the abuse to occur and enabled the cover-ups will change.

I suspect the congregational structure of evangelical churches will make it more difficult for civil suits to have the impact they've had on the Catholic church, because of this:

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/18/639698062/the-clergy-abuse-crisis-has-cost-the-catholic-church-3-billion

"The lawsuits have targeted dioceses and religious orders, not parishes, because individual Catholic congregations have little authority over their priests. The diocesan assets at stake in the ongoing cases include cash, stocks, land and buildings, in addition to insurance payouts."

However, you will have less credibility going forward as people capable of leading anyone outside of your congregation to the Way, the Truth and the Light. If you truly ever cared about that.

And some of you will serve on boards that will vote to minimize your exposure to paying damages to abuse victims by shifting assets around:

https://www.abi.org/newsroom/bankruptcy-brief/catholic-church-shields-2-billion-in-assets-to-limit-abuse-payouts

A Bloomberg Businessweek review of court filings by lawyers for churches and victims in the past 15 years shows that the U.S. Catholic Church has shielded more than $2 billion in assets from abuse victims in diocesan bankruptcies. "The survivors should have gotten that money, and they didn't," says Terry McKiernan, president of BishopAccountability.org.

The unfolding of one diocese's bankruptcy provides a road map for what may come as more go this route. The chapter 11 filing of the Archdiocese in Santa Fe shows how easy and routine it is to reconfigure a balance sheet. The archdiocese was facing a few dozen clergy abuse suits when it filed in December 2018, saying that it was too poor to defend itself. The number rose to about 375 by the June 2019 deadline that the bankruptcy court had set for victims to file claims.

In court papers, the archdiocese reported owning $49 million in real estate, cash, and investments. By contrast, the church's 1951 incorporation papers put its estimated value at $40 million, or $396 million in today's dollars. To arrive at that $49 million figure, church leaders said at least $178 million in cash and property associated with the archdiocese was owned by parishes or held in a trust or foundation and thus wasn't eligible for inclusion in the estate.

James Stang, lead lawyer for the alleged clergy abuse victims in the bankruptcy, wrote in a June court filing that the incorporations and transfers were made with the intent to "hinder, delay, or defraud" the claimants.

J. Ford Elsaesser, an archdiocese lawyer, disputes accusations that the archdiocese shuffled assets to keep money from claimants. The relationship between the church and its parishes is like that between an adult child and an elderly parent who can no longer handle his affairs, he says: "The property is yours in name, but it's not your money." He says that bankruptcy is the best venue for settling large numbers of abuse claims in part because it makes for a fairer distribution of finite church assets, with all victims sharing the money in an orderly way instead of it being quickly scooped up by victims who file claims first.

---

you've no clue what any of us (evangelicals who post here) do and don't do. You choose to take the worst situations and turn them into your broad brush which, you then use to paint everyone as the same shade.

You should try a little introspection and understand that many others have been doing that for years.

---

Yea, racist southern whites were real good about broad brushing all black folks a couple of generations ago, I suppose they have had to find a different target for it to be socially acceptable now.

Coke Bear said:

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J.B.Katz said:

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"The lawsuits have targeted dioceses and religious orders, not parishes, because individual Catholic congregations have little authority over their priests. The diocesan assets at stake in the ongoing cases include cash, stocks, land and buildings, in addition to insurance payouts."

---

You have really no clue what you are talking about.

Lawsuits target the dioceses because the Bishop owns all the parishes (land and buildings) of his diocese.

The only thing the church might own is the computers, some furniture and maybe a church van. Heck, they probably lease the copier.

You claim that people express outrage and move on. That may be the case for some, maybe most. But there are many good Catholics that do demand accountability of the Church. They serve both inside and outside of the Church to ensure this.

For most of us, that's NOT our charism. Many don't have the bandwidth for that. I've work with the youth at my parish for a dozen years. My tiny piece of the puzzle is to ensure that our teens are safe and taught the tenants of the faith.

If you are this upset, and rightly so, please join one of those organizations that demand accountability. I would appreciate that greatly.

---

You're a nice guy. You're also persistent and loyal apologist for the Catholic Church.

My problem with most Catholics is that they didn't even bother to express outrage about abuse. They tried to cover up and move on as quickly as possible. One Catholic posting on this site touted the false Church talking point that the abuse scandal was due to homosexuals in the priesthood.

For those eager for a government informed by religious values, Ireland offers an interesting case study, as its legal system was dominated by Catholic values until very recently.

The Church lost credibility--and members--in Ireland after multiple investigations revealed sexual abuse by priests similar to the pattern here in the U.S--offending priests were just moved to another parish--and extraordinarily high death rates at homes for unwed mothers/children's homes between the 1920s and the 1990s.

It's great that your parish aspires to do better than that/protect children and teens/teach the tenants of your faith. That's what churches should do.

What I don't think the Church has done to the extent it should anywhere in the world is truly take responsibility for the awful things these reports uncovered. I don't think the SBC will truly take responsibility, either.

https://www.reuters.com/world/reports-into-abuses-irish-catholic-church-2021-01-12/

DUBLIN/TUAM, Ireland, Jan 12 (Reuters) - Thousands of infants died in Irish homes for unmarried mothers and their offspring mostly run by the Catholic Church from the 1920s to the 1990s, an inquiry found on Tuesday, an "appalling" mortality rate that reflected brutal living conditions.

The report, which covered 18 so-called Mother and Baby Homes where over decades young pregnant women were hidden from society, is the latest in a series of government-commissioned papers that have laid bare some of the Catholic Church's worst abuses. read more

I'm not concerned with the Roman Catholics. Let them resolve their issues.

I hope there will be "healing" and eventually forgiveness for individuals thru the Spirit's work. I hope there will be healing of body, mind, and spirit for the victims. I don't care about financial benefits but if the court specifies that, so be it. I don't worry about the"cause of Christ" because nothing will deter that, though I am concerned about saints who will take this personally. May they be blessed with wise and secure leadership, especially from laity. I hope pastors and other professional ministers get a huge wake-up call from this and acquire some humility: they are not immunized against the same trouble.

Finally, I hope the SBC fragments to nothingness and is forced to restore itself with leaders of integrity and humility. No one from the previous regimes should ever be involved in its leadership or guidance ever again. They have met the enemy and it wasn't only Satan. The enemy was themselves, hubris and pride. As Cromwell told the Long Parliament: "You have sat here too long for any good you may have been doing. Let us have done with you. In the name of God, go."

drahthaar said:

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I'm not concerned with the Roman Catholics. Let them resolve their issues.

I hope there will be "healing" and eventually forgiveness for individuals thru the Spirit's work. I hope there will be healing of body, mind, and spirit for the victims. I don't care about financial benefits but if the court specifies that, so be it. I don't worry about the"cause of Christ" because nothing will deter that, though I am concerned about saints who will take this personally. May they be blessed with wise and secure leadership, especially from laity. I hope pastors and other professional ministers get a huge wake-up call from this and acquire some humility: they are not immunized against the same trouble.

Finally, I hope the SBC fragments to nothingness and is forced to restore itself with leaders of integrity and humility. No one from the previous regimes should ever be involved in its leadership or guidance ever again. They have met the enemy and it wasn't only Satan. The enemy was themselves, hubris and pride. As Cromwell told the Long Parliament: "You have sat here too long for any good you may have been doing. Let us have done with you. In the name of God, go."

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"I hope the SBC fragments to nothingness and is forced to restore itself with leaders of integrity and humility. No one from the previous regimes should ever be involved in its leadership or guidance ever again."

This is what should happen.

I don't believe it will happen.

Churches fail because they ultimately become much more about their leaders and worldly power than they are about loving God and loving your neighbor.

Here are the people who should never be in leadership again. Can you seriously see that happening?

In an internal email, August Boto, an influential executive committee leader, described advocates' efforts as a "satanic scheme to completely distract us from evangelism," referring to the work of Christa Brown, a survivor, and the advocate Rachael Denhollander, who has worked with the denomination, as "the devil being temporarily successful."

It said that leaders including Ronnie Floyd, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention who resigned as the head of the executive committee in October, had resisted the creation of a task force to investigate the executive committee.


The report described revelations in recent years that senior leaders had "protected or even supported abusers." The leaders included three former presidents of the denomination, Steve Gaines, Jack Graham and Paige Patterson, as well as a former vice president and Mr. Boto, a former executive committee interim president and general counsel.

During the course of Guidepost's investigation, the report said, a pastor and his wife came forward to allege that Johnny Hunt, who was president of the denomination from 2008 to 2010, had sexually assaulted the wife shortly after his presidency ended. The report described the pastor and his wife as "credible," and said that parts of their account were corroborated by four other credible witnesses.

drahthaar said:

---

I'm not concerned with the Roman Catholics. Let them resolve their issues.

I hope there will be "healing" and eventually forgiveness for individuals thru the Spirit's work. I hope there will be healing of body, mind, and spirit for the victims. I don't care about financial benefits but if the court specifies that, so be it. I don't worry about the"cause of Christ" because nothing will deter that, though I am concerned about saints who will take this personally. May they be blessed with wise and secure leadership, especially from laity. I hope pastors and other professional ministers get a huge wake-up call from this and acquire some humility: they are not immunized against the same trouble.

Finally, I hope the SBC fragments to nothingness and is forced to restore itself with leaders of integrity and humility. No one from the previous regimes should ever be involved in its leadership or guidance ever again. They have met the enemy and it wasn't only Satan. The enemy was themselves, hubris and pride. As Cromwell told the Long Parliament: "You have sat here too long for any good you may have been doing. Let us have done with you. In the name of God, go."

---

I do not hope the SBC fragments. What it really needs is another, Christ-driven resurgence that puts the Gospel at the front and center of Baptist life. Ironically, now is an even more critical time for a Bold Mission Thrust, which was to be the emphasis of the 1979(?) convention before the fundamentalists took over. I would actually like to see Baptists across the U.S. unite and create a larger, Gospel-focused organization that jettisons politics on both sides and focuses on evangelism and building Christ-like Christians. Both liberal and conservative Baptists (and Christians) are way more wed to the world than to the Word IMHO.

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

This is horrific and not totally unexpected to me. I have been pointing out to my wife for a while
what I see as power abuses even in our local church. No I don't believe any sexual abuse has been going on,
but I see what I feel is a rotten corporate structure, that creates celebrity out of church leaders and sainthood
memberships for their child family members, even if they incorrigible little ****s.

If you are totally failing at the little things, you are bound to be failing at the big things. I think that is what is at
issue in way too may SBC churches. You know some or even a lot of them are good places of worship, way too many are corrupt though. Time for the upper levels of the organization as whole to repent in sackcloth and ashes. Unfortunately I doubt it happens.

---

A sad trend of evangelical churches today is the growth of personality cults.

As a pastor, I like to be revered, but some churches go overboard and center on their pastor and his personality.

Furthermore, in many churches, the pastor has become the CEO and dictator. Decades ago, most churches had strong deacon bodies and boards that held pastors accountable. Sadly, a lot of that is gone.

For about 40 years, the SBC has shown a culture of male dominance and belittling of females.

It's no surprise that abuse like this follows.

Why would anyone want to remain a part of an SBC church or the Catholic church when there are so many alternatives to worship and expressing and living your Faith.

Wasn't there an associate pastor from Prestonwood who "cried out to God" over Briles. This is at least as bad. Will our former QB give an interview to WSJ? Shouldn't he resign?

SBC report highlights Plano's Prestonwood Baptist as example of protecting sex abusers
After the Southern Baptist Convention released its report, Prestonwood denied ever protecting or supporting abusers.
[url=https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2022/05/22/report-top-southern-baptists-stonewalled-sex-abuse-victims/][/url]
North Texas figures prominently in a highly-anticipated report released on Sunday about allegations of sex abuse among Southern Baptist churches.

In particular, Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano.

The report says that when leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention learned of allegations of sexual abuse, rather than reporting the accusation to authorities or firing those responsible, they protected the abusers or stonewalled and denigrated the survivors. The report includes Prestonwood and its pastor, Jack Graham, as an example, as well as Paige Patterson, the former president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth.

Prestonwood Baptist is one of the largest churches in the country, and Graham is a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, serving from 2002 to 2004. His congregation includes prominent elected leaders, such as Rep. Jeff Leach, R-Plano.

Leach tweeted on Sunday that the report is "absolutely horrifying."

"As the husband of a sexual assault survivor, I have lived the horrors associated with this awful crime. To know so many Pastors covered these heinous sins instead of exposing them is almost too much to bear. God, be near, convict and revive us," he said.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2022/05/23/planos-prestonwood-baptist-is-example-of-stonewalling-victims-of-sex-abuse-in-sbc-report/

J.B.Katz said:

---

C. Jordan said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

---

There's an interesting battle shaping up at this year's SBC.

There's a group called "The Conservative Baptist Network" who feel the current extremely conservative SBC isn't conservative enough. They're particularly concerned that the SBC is getting wobbly on women and a number of those on the SBC Executive Committee who are part of this network who tried to squelch the investigation.

This Network is running candidates for SBC President and President of the Pastor's Conference. The candidate for the Pastor's Conference is Voddie Baucum, who feels that women should stay at home and shouldn't get college degrees.

If the Conservative Network prevails, it's unlikely the Guidepost's recommendations will be implemented. If it loses, then they might.

However, the Convention has shown a mind of its own on this issue, and they may force compliance with the recommendations no matter what.

Get your popcorn in mid-June! It could be a donnybrook!

---

Religious sects that don't value education for women--fundamentalist/Taliban/Wahabi Muslims, ultraorthodox Jews, FLDS Mormons, Quiverfull, Jehovah's Witnesses & plenty of smaller, less-well-known entities headed by guys like Voddie Baucum--are generally not worried about the abuse of women or children.

How probable do you think it is that the CBN candidates will prevail?

I have tremendous respect for Russell Moore and Beth Moore, and when they left the SBC I was concerned that a conservative church would take a mean turn. I'll be interested to see what impact this report has. But, after watching the Catholic Church try all sorts of underhanded tactics that included blaming the victims, claiming that the perps of abuse were homosexual priests (a twofer, since it condemned a group the Catholic church already reviled and shifted the blame from the priesthood to people the Church had already labeled as egregious sinners), lawyering up, using proprietary canon law to obstruct prosecution of known perps within the priestly ranks, and hiding assets, I'm not optimistic.

Powerful orgs tend to close ranks when threatened, and introspection isn't a valued commodity in fundamentalist circles; your conscience and your beliefs are supposed to be dictated from without, by your designated church leader's interpretation of the Bible rather than your own, and you're supposed to trust and obey for there's no other way to be happy in Jesus, or so the hymn goes.

---

In the historical Baptist tradition, It's Trust and obey Jesus, not Trust and obey the current pastor.

Reverend said:

---

Why would anyone want to remain a part of an SBC church or the Catholic church when there are so many alternatives to worship and expressing and living your Faith.

---

The church isn't the building, nor the pastor, nor the priest. Whether Protestant (SBC) or Roman Catholic I would hope that those attending a particular denomination do so because they are in agreement with the doctrine espoused by that specific church.

Why would a devout Catholic give up the doctrine of their faith because there have been some bad leaders. Why would a devout Baptist give up the doctrine of their faith because of some horrible people in leadership roles?

John 15:2-6
Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

If you believe the doctrine of your faith best represents "the vine", then help take away the fruitless branches. Be prepared to endure some pruning as the pastor you like may be outed. Then, be prepared to bare more fruit.

Reverend said:

---

Why would anyone want to remain a part of an SBC church or the Catholic church when there are so many alternatives to worship and expressing and living your Faith.

---

I'm not sure if you are being serious…

The SBC is just a convention…all churches are independent and may choose to stay in the convention or leave.

As for faithful Catholics it's because there is no path to sure salvation outside of communion with Rome.

"There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics."

extra ecclesiam nulla salus

Redbrickbear said:

---

Reverend said:

---

Why would anyone want to remain a part of an SBC church or the Catholic church when there are so many alternatives to worship and expressing and living your Faith.

---

I'm not sure if you are being serious…

The SBC is just a convention…all churches are independent and may choose to stay in the convention or leave.

As for faithful Catholics it's because there is no path to sure salvation outside of communion with Rome.

"There is no salvation apart from Christ and his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Again, this is an infallible teaching and not up for debate among Catholics."

extra ecclesiam nulla salus

---

Nope…..I just dig the secret handshake.

John 6:53

Osodecentx said:

---

Wasn't there an associate pastor from Prestonwood who "cried out to God" over Briles. This is at least as bad.

---

That was Dennis Wiles at FBC Arlington IIRC.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

drahthaar said:

---

I'm not concerned with the Roman Catholics. Let them resolve their issues.

I hope there will be "healing" and eventually forgiveness for individuals thru the Spirit's work. I hope there will be healing of body, mind, and spirit for the victims. I don't care about financial benefits but if the court specifies that, so be it. I don't worry about the"cause of Christ" because nothing will deter that, though I am concerned about saints who will take this personally. May they be blessed with wise and secure leadership, especially from laity. I hope pastors and other professional ministers get a huge wake-up call from this and acquire some humility: they are not immunized against the same trouble.

Finally, I hope the SBC fragments to nothingness and is forced to restore itself with leaders of integrity and humility. No one from the previous regimes should ever be involved in its leadership or guidance ever again. They have met the enemy and it wasn't only Satan. The enemy was themselves, hubris and pride. As Cromwell told the Long Parliament: "You have sat here too long for any good you may have been doing. Let us have done with you. In the name of God, go."

---

I do not hope the SBC fragments. What it really needs is another, Christ-driven resurgence that puts the Gospel at the front and center of Baptist life. Ironically, now is an even more critical time for a Bold Mission Thrust, which was to be the emphasis of the 1979(?) convention before the fundamentalists took over. I would actually like to see Baptists across the U.S. unite and create a larger, Gospel-focused organization that jettisons politics on both sides and focuses on evangelism and building Christ-like Christians. Both liberal and conservative Baptists (and Christians) are way more wed to the world than to the Word IMHO.

---

I'm with you on the "resurgence" but it will never occur with current leadership, and leadership at every level. To incorporate the motivation, planning and commitment of the old Bold Mission Thrust and fit it to our world today requires leadership in the order of Bill Pinson and Roger Hall, and there are none of those types of men and women leading our "conventions" today. The SBC need an entire new start, built by gifted people whose humility hasn't been sullied by influence, power and position. Baptists need to find the Russell Dildays, Bill Reeds, Dewey Presleys, Ross Sams, Abner McCalls to lead that rebuild, while flushing the waste from the current system. All of them.

Great comments.

Before the Fundamentalist Takeover, the central focus of the SBC was missions. There always were factions within it and it drug its feet on civil rights, but it allowed for a significant degree of diversity for the sake of missions.

After the takeover, the central focus became doctrinal conformity. The "inerrancy" fight was on. But at last, it really wasn't about scriptural authority per se. In the midst of that battle, I thought it was a doctrinal fight. But looking back, particularly through the lens of this scandal, I see that it was about control. It was about pushing back against women's rights and civil rights. Abortion was in there, but it was just a tool to attain political control.

The problem with focusing on doctrinal purity is there will always be folks who think you aren't pure enough. Hence the Conservative Baptist Network, which is seeking to gain power in the SBC and which resisted this investigation. It formed as a pushback to modest moves in the convention to do better on civil and women's rights.

All this is taking place as the convention is in decline. It's probably declining worse than its membership numbers show. Patterson and Pressler told everyone that once the convention became doctrinally pure, revival would happen and growth would be tremendous. The opposite has happened.

Interestingly, the Conservative Baptist Network is using the same argument. Once the convention is really really doctrinally pure, revival will come.

But both "conservative resurgences" show that revival doesn't come from lying, bullying, and general hatefulness. Revival comes only through prayer, repentance, and following Jesus.

Gonna be a whole lot of new cold call life insurance salesmen hitting the streets in the days ahead (and that's not intended as a slam at credible professionals in the field of insurane). That and maybe a whole bunch of shoe salesmen at he Mall. Not many job opportunities for defrocked Baptist preachers.

whitetrash said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Wasn't there an associate pastor from Prestonwood who "cried out to God" over Briles. This is at least as bad.

---

That was Dennis Wiles at FBC Arlington IIRC.

---

What did Pastor Neal Jeffrey say?

J.B.Katz said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

---

Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

---

If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

---

What a broad brush you paint with.

J.B.Katz said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

J.B.Katz said:

---

I don't believe for a minute that you folks didn't know this was happening.

It was just easier to ignore it despite reports like this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2019/06/10/attorneys-boz-tchividjian-and-mitch-little-help-a-sex-abuse-victim-in-her-quest-to-hold-matt-chandler-and-the-village-church-accountable/

Or to blame the victim--remember Karen Root/Hinkley, who was subjected to church discipline after discovering her husband was a pedophile and requesting an annulment, which the Church not only refused to grant, but during which they also hired a lawyer...to defend her husband, Jordan Root, the pedophile.

https://baptistnews.com/article/man-confesses-to-child-porn-church-disciplines-his-wife/#.YovQYajMKUk

Or perhaps you value the lives of women so little (people who support government commandeering of women's bodies the instant an egg is fertilized, even in instances of rape or incest, clearly don't value women enough to believe they should have any personal agency or control over their own lives whatsoever) that you believed upholding the church leadership meant overlooking when leaders stumbled or covered for powerful parishioners or other church leaders who stumbled.

If this is a shocking problem, it sure has been hiding in plain sight.

Here's what I predict will happen: Nothing.

Nothing has really happened in the Catholic church other than dioceses being bankrupted by civil claims. Which Church lawyers have fought tooth and nail.

And the Trumps have proven that if you have enough support, control media that reaches your followers (even if it alienates most everyone else), gaslight enough, stall enough and deny enough, you'll pay no consequences whatsoever. That's the strategy Ginni Thomas and Clarence Thomas are currently employing to ensure Thomas can remain in his SCOTUS seat despite the fact that Ginni supported an insurrection and Clarence helped by voting to allow Trump to block the release of presidential records relating to the events of Jan. 6.

https://www.scotusblog.com/2022/01/court-rebuffs-trumps-bid-to-block-release-of-documents-related-to-jan-6-riot/

---

Blood in the water. Enjoy your frenzy.

---

If you believe this is something anybody would enjoy, you're sicker than I thought.

I left evangelical Christianity years ago because of its use of God as a power construct to be wielded by church leaders as a political and personal control force rather than as a force for good. That sickened me then, and it still does.

The fact that the evidence is now incontrovertable only deepens my sadness that something that could and should have been a force for good (Billy Graham was a good man, in part because his focus was on saving people's souls and giving their lives meaning and purpose), has instead, for too many people, functioned as a force of abuse and control makes me sick and sad.

It's made me sick and sad for a long time, because it's where I came from, and how I grew up, and with moral leadership that valued truly espoused Christian values over meanness, condemnation and control, things could have been different. They certainly should have been.

Your response confirms my prediction: Nothing will change. You'll all find a way to excuse or ignore this behavior and carry on thinking it's just fine to hate people who don't share your religious and political beliefs and affiliations.

---

I'm excusing nothing. I'm calling out your excitement over the failures of people you despise.

---

You're ignoring my points that

(1) you all realize this is very bad, and that what happened is completely unacceptable, but that

(2) you'll do what many Catholics (the ones who didn't leave the church--and a few did) did when the pervasiveness of abuse by priests and, in a few cases, nuns, of women and children in congregations, schools and Catholic institutions, including homes for unwed mothers, came to light: Express shock and horror, as you have on this thread, and then you'll quickly move on.

Very little about your personal activities or the way your church is organized or the systems that allowed the abuse to occur and enabled the cover-ups will change.

I suspect the congregational structure of evangelical churches will make it more difficult for civil suits to have the impact they've had on the Catholic church, because of this:

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/18/639698062/the-clergy-abuse-crisis-has-cost-the-catholic-church-3-billion

"The lawsuits have targeted dioceses and religious orders, not parishes, because individual Catholic congregations have little authority over their priests. The diocesan assets at stake in the ongoing cases include cash, stocks, land and buildings, in addition to insurance payouts."

However, you will have less credibility going forward as people capable of leading anyone outside of your congregation to the Way, the Truth and the Light. If you truly ever cared about that.

And some of you will serve on boards that will vote to minimize your exposure to paying damages to abuse victims by shifting assets around:

https://www.abi.org/newsroom/bankruptcy-brief/catholic-church-shields-2-billion-in-assets-to-limit-abuse-payouts

A Bloomberg Businessweek review of court filings by lawyers for churches and victims in the past 15 years shows that the U.S. Catholic Church has shielded more than $2 billion in assets from abuse victims in diocesan bankruptcies. "The survivors should have gotten that money, and they didn't," says Terry McKiernan, president of BishopAccountability.org.

The unfolding of one diocese's bankruptcy provides a road map for what may come as more go this route. The chapter 11 filing of the Archdiocese in Santa Fe shows how easy and routine it is to reconfigure a balance sheet. The archdiocese was facing a few dozen clergy abuse suits when it filed in December 2018, saying that it was too poor to defend itself. The number rose to about 375 by the June 2019 deadline that the bankruptcy court had set for victims to file claims.

In court papers, the archdiocese reported owning $49 million in real estate, cash, and investments. By contrast, the church's 1951 incorporation papers put its estimated value at $40 million, or $396 million in today's dollars. To arrive at that $49 million figure, church leaders said at least $178 million in cash and property associated with the archdiocese was owned by parishes or held in a trust or foundation and thus wasn't eligible for inclusion in the estate.

James Stang, lead lawyer for the alleged clergy abuse victims in the bankruptcy, wrote in a June court filing that the incorporations and transfers were made with the intent to "hinder, delay, or defraud" the claimants.

J. Ford Elsaesser, an archdiocese lawyer, disputes accusations that the archdiocese shuffled assets to keep money from claimants. The relationship between the church and its parishes is like that between an adult child and an elderly parent who can no longer handle his affairs, he says: "The property is yours in name, but it's not your money." He says that bankruptcy is the best venue for settling large numbers of abuse claims in part because it makes for a fairer distribution of finite church assets, with all victims sharing the money in an orderly way instead of it being quickly scooped up by victims who file claims first.

---

So, you're judging people based on your assumptions and speculation regarding what they will do in the future. Interesting.

A very interesting thread on the cbn issue mentioned in this thread

1/ Got thoughts on pirates? Like petty drama and/or care about abuse in the nation’s 2nd-largest Christian denom?

GOOD NEWS: I have an absurdly long and meticulously sourced #thread for you thats crucial to understanding that historic report on Southern Baptist abuse

— Robert Downen (@RobDownenChron) May 24, 2022

Osodecentx said:

---

Wasn't there an associate pastor from Prestonwood who "cried out to God" over Briles. This is at least as bad. Will our former QB give an interview to WSJ? Shouldn't he resign?

SBC report highlights Plano's Prestonwood Baptist as example of protecting sex abusers
After the Southern Baptist Convention released its report, Prestonwood denied ever protecting or supporting abusers.
[url=https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2022/05/22/report-top-southern-baptists-stonewalled-sex-abuse-victims/][/url]
North Texas figures prominently in a highly-anticipated report released on Sunday about allegations of sex abuse among Southern Baptist churches.

In particular, Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano.

The report says that when leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention learned of allegations of sexual abuse, rather than reporting the accusation to authorities or firing those responsible, they protected the abusers or stonewalled and denigrated the survivors. The report includes Prestonwood and its pastor, Jack Graham, as an example, as well as Paige Patterson, the former president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth.

Prestonwood Baptist is one of the largest churches in the country, and Graham is a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, serving from 2002 to 2004. His congregation includes prominent elected leaders, such as Rep. Jeff Leach, R-Plano.

Leach tweeted on Sunday that the report is "absolutely horrifying."

"As the husband of a sexual assault survivor, I have lived the horrors associated with this awful crime. To know so many Pastors covered these heinous sins instead of exposing them is almost too much to bear. God, be near, convict and revive us," he said.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2022/05/23/planos-prestonwood-baptist-is-example-of-stonewalling-victims-of-sex-abuse-in-sbc-report/

---

You sure that wasn't the First Baptist Church Arlington Pastor who cried out. That Dennis Wiles fellow.

Forest Bueller_bf said:

---

Osodecentx said:

---

Wasn't there an associate pastor from Prestonwood who "cried out to God" over Briles. This is at least as bad. Will our former QB give an interview to WSJ? Shouldn't he resign?

SBC report highlights Plano's Prestonwood Baptist as example of protecting sex abusers
After the Southern Baptist Convention released its report, Prestonwood denied ever protecting or supporting abusers.
[url=https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2022/05/22/report-top-southern-baptists-stonewalled-sex-abuse-victims/][/url]
North Texas figures prominently in a highly-anticipated report released on Sunday about allegations of sex abuse among Southern Baptist churches.

In particular, Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano.

The report says that when leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention learned of allegations of sexual abuse, rather than reporting the accusation to authorities or firing those responsible, they protected the abusers or stonewalled and denigrated the survivors. The report includes Prestonwood and its pastor, Jack Graham, as an example, as well as Paige Patterson, the former president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth.

Prestonwood Baptist is one of the largest churches in the country, and Graham is a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, serving from 2002 to 2004. His congregation includes prominent elected leaders, such as Rep. Jeff Leach, R-Plano.

Leach tweeted on Sunday that the report is "absolutely horrifying."

"As the husband of a sexual assault survivor, I have lived the horrors associated with this awful crime. To know so many Pastors covered these heinous sins instead of exposing them is almost too much to bear. God, be near, convict and revive us," he said.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2022/05/23/planos-prestonwood-baptist-is-example-of-stonewalling-victims-of-sex-abuse-in-sbc-report/

---

You sure that wasn't the First Baptist Church Arlington Pastor who cried out. That Dennis Wiles fellow.

---

Guarantee you he did if there was a camera or a reporter around to see him.

Drango Unchained said:

---

A very interesting thread on the cbn issue mentioned in this thread

1/ Got thoughts on pirates? Like petty drama and/or care about abuse in the nation’s 2nd-largest Christian denom?

GOOD NEWS: I have an absurdly long and meticulously sourced #thread for you thats crucial to understanding that historic report on Southern Baptist abuse

— Robert Downen (@RobDownenChron) May 24, 2022

---

Wow.

Great info there.

I've heard rumors of Paige lurking around CBN.

I think he's on his own vengeance tour.

His involvement with the SBC attorney mentioned in the report to defraud a foundation was awful in itself.

Yet he's still revered by many as a hero of the faith.

(Interesting tidbits on Paige: He wanted to be on the faculty of New Orleans Seminary, where he got his doctorate. But he wasn't deemed good enough. That's how he ended up at Criswell Bible College. When he became president of Criswell Bible, the trustees wanted to fire him for incompetence, but Paige brought in luminaries like Adrian Rogers to browbeat them into backing off.)

Consideration to bring Paige Patterson "on board" at any level and for any job is intentionally ingesting hemlock. The guy is a discredited power-monger who appears to lack even a modicum of grace as well as any regard or respect for institutional guidelines, integrity and institutional memory.

While the new BNG espouses a noble effort while not supplanting the SBC, make no mistake in concluding it is not positioning itself to gather the pieces of the SBC down the road and becoming a new convention. it is probably not a bad move but it has to choose leadership wisely and establish vision and mission which are clear and not couched in some "church language" and especially in some "preachers' language". Most conventions, in my experience, are catering to the professional ministers and not the lay women and men in their churches. Lay people avoid "annual meetings" because there is little offered in terms of spiritual growth or inspiration for them at those gatherings, events now full of institutional self-promotion and "business meetings".

Vision, imagination and inspiration are lacking. Those who sit in pews on Sunday and fund the professional ministers and their work have taken notice and are looking for a more fulfilling experience in faith.

Michael Gerson's column:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/23/southern-baptist-sexual-abuse-culture-of-misogyny/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_opinions&utm_campaign=wp_opinions

Here's his concluding paragraph:

Men who intimidate victims, cover up cruelty and blame survivors for their own abuse have shaped the values and ethos of a major Christian institution. This is much more than religious hypocrisy. It is the sign of a church that has lost its first love.

J.B.Katz said:

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Michael Gerson's column:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/23/southern-baptist-sexual-abuse-culture-of-misogyny/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_opinions&utm_campaign=wp_opinions

Here's his concluding paragraph:

Men who intimidate victims, cover up cruelty and blame survivors for their own abuse have shaped the values and ethos of a major Christian institution. This is much more than religious hypocrisy. It is the sign of a church that has lost its first love.

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Not only succinct, but also accurate.

Drango Unchained said:

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A very interesting thread on the cbn issue mentioned in this thread

1/ Got thoughts on pirates? Like petty drama and/or care about abuse in the nation’s 2nd-largest Christian denom?

GOOD NEWS: I have an absurdly long and meticulously sourced #thread for you thats crucial to understanding that historic report on Southern Baptist abuse

— Robert Downen (@RobDownenChron) May 24, 2022

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So the Conservative Baptist Network launched with the help of Paige Patterson, who jeered about abuse of women. And its members worked to run off both Russell Moore and Beth Moore.

drahthaar said:

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Consideration to bring Paige Patterson "on board" at any level and for any job is intentionally ingesting hemlock. The guy is a discredited power-monger who appears to lack even a modicum of grace as well as any regard or respect for institutional guidelines, integrity and institutional memory.

While the new BNG espouses a noble effort while not supplanting the SBC, make no mistake in concluding it is not positioning itself to gather the pieces of the SBC down the road and becoming a new convention. it is probably not a bad move but it has to choose leadership wisely and establish vision and mission which are clear and not couched in some "church language" and especially in some "preachers' language". Most conventions, in my experience, are catering to the professional ministers and not the lay women and men in their churches. Lay people avoid "annual meetings" because there is little offered in terms of spiritual growth or inspiration for them at those gatherings, events now full of institutional self-promotion and "business meetings".

Vision, imagination and inspiration are lacking. Those who sit in pews on Sunday and fund the professional ministers and their work have taken notice and are looking for a more fulfilling experience in faith.

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The United Methodist Church has the same problem with its conventions, and there's also an interneccine war over acceptance of LGBTQ congregants and ministers between a conservative faction of the church and the mainstream faction that's about the split the denomination.

But the UMC started ordaining women in 1956, although women ministers only started increasing in numbers in the 1980s and did not become common until the 1990s.

Having women represented among church leadership is a partial insurance policy against a culture of ignoring reports of sexual abuse of anyone of any sex and any age. Refusing to allow women in leadership positions or refusing even to listen them speak out about their abuse (the report makes clear that some conservative leaders tried to silence women who reported abuse, and one even physically turned his back on a victim) makes it easier for male leaders to ignore, lie about, cover up and gaslight about abuse perpetrated by colleagues or friends while simultaneously blaming the victims both for their abuse and for speaking out about it.