Hope in our future.

Republicans making moves toward entering 2024 primary against Trump
Their actions reflect a growing sense in the GOP that the former president is far from an inevitable nominee

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantisjust restarted his Google and Facebook ads, targeting a national audience ahead of a state legislative session he believes will highlight causes that will help him in a presidential primary, according to a Republican consultant familiar with his operation.

Former secretary of state Mike Pompeo's team has reached out to potential staff in early primary states. Former vice president Mike Pence is looking to add fundraising aides. And Arkansas Gov. Asa Hutchinsonis talking with donors and gauging his ability to fund a campaign through an "endurance race."

Potential Republican rivals to Donald Trump are ramping up their 2024 maneuverings, reflecting a growing sense in the party that the former president is far from the inevitable nominee after a midterm election in which he was blamed for many of the party's woes. "You never know when that early front-runner is going to stumble," said Hutchinson, who is urging the party to move on from Trump and said it's too soon to say who else will catch on.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/24/2024-presidential-race-republicans-trump-desantis/

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

Trump is the Establishment

Just look at who the Democrats try to destroy along with their families long before the race begins and that will be our Republican nominee. I think the Dems and Trump are about to renew attacks on DeSantis.

Unless Trump can come out with a new line of Trump action figures or comic books, I think he is finished.

God forbid the people decide. Democracy and all.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Just look at who the Democrats try to destroy along with their families long before the race begins and that will be our Republican nominee. I think the Dems and Trump are about to renew attacks on DeSantis.

Unless Trump can come out with a new line of Trump action figures or comic books, I think he is finished.

---

He, along with Pompeo and Hutchinson, are in the dead zone. They hold no office, so cannot easily do things that force the media to cover them. Trump for many reasons will outclass anyone similarly situated. His only true threats are sitting office holders, foremost among whom is RDS.

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Just look at who the Democrats try to destroy along with their families long before the race begins and that will be our Republican nominee. I think the Dems and Trump are about to renew attacks on DeSantis.

Unless Trump can come out with a new line of Trump action figures or comic books, I think he is finished.

---

He, along with Pompeo and Hutchinson, are in the dead zone. They hold no office, so cannot easily do things that force the media to cover them. Trump for many reasons will outclass anyone similarly situated. His only true threats are sitting office holders, foremost among whom is RDS.

---

Plus the Dear Leader has the Lindell muscle

It's my understanding that Pence has filed. He has no shot but that doesnt seem to matter

4th and Inches said:

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It's my understanding that Pence has filed. He has no shot but that doesnt seem to matter

---

It is a hoax. From WaPo:

A spokesman for former vice president Mike Pence's campaign denied reports on Monday that the Republican had filed to run for president in 2024, responding to an apparent hoax after screenshots of a Federal Election Commission posting began to circulate.

"Former Vice President Mike Pence did not file to run for President today," Devin O'Malley wrote on Twitter. When reached for comment Monday, O'Malley confirmed his tweet and added: "You'll have to reach out to the FEC for answers about the filing."

Gotcha.. thanks for update

Osodecentx said:

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4th and Inches said:

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It's my understanding that Pence has filed. He has no shot but that doesnt seem to matter

---

It is a hoax. From WaPo:

A spokesman for former vice president Mike Pence's campaign denied reports on Monday that the Republican had filed to run for president in 2024, responding to an apparent hoax after screenshots of a Federal Election Commission posting began to circulate.

"Former Vice President Mike Pence did not file to run for President today," Devin O'Malley wrote on Twitter. When reached for comment Monday, O'Malley confirmed his tweet and added: "You'll have to reach out to the FEC for answers about the filing."

---

Washington Compost? Fake news!

Osodecentx said:

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Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

Trump is the Establishment

---

No.

Whatever else we can say about Trump, he definitely is not the Establishment.

That would be McConnell, any of the Bushes, Cheney or Romney.

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Just look at who the Democrats try to destroy along with their families long before the race begins and that will be our Republican nominee. I think the Dems and Trump are about to renew attacks on DeSantis.

Unless Trump can come out with a new line of Trump action figures or comic books, I think he is finished.

---

He, along with Pompeo and Hutchinson, are in the dead zone. They hold no office, so cannot easily do things that force the media to cover them. Trump for many reasons will outclass anyone similarly situated. His only true threats are sitting office holders, foremost among whom is RDS.

---

This whole mess is bass-ackward, you know. What we should be doing, is looking for the best solutions to key issues, and then find the candidate who best offers a way to make them happen.

Obsessing on personality is how you end up with Obama.

Oldbear83 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Just look at who the Democrats try to destroy along with their families long before the race begins and that will be our Republican nominee. I think the Dems and Trump are about to renew attacks on DeSantis.

Unless Trump can come out with a new line of Trump action figures or comic books, I think he is finished.

---

He, along with Pompeo and Hutchinson, are in the dead zone. They hold no office, so cannot easily do things that force the media to cover them. Trump for many reasons will outclass anyone similarly situated. His only true threats are sitting office holders, foremost among whom is RDS.

---

This whole mess is bass-ackward, you know. What we should be doing, is looking for the best solutions to key issues, and then find the candidate who best offers a way to make them happen.

Obsessing on personality is how you end up with Obama.

---

Weird that I never hear the TDSers critiquing Trump's policies. Seems like all personality-driven hysteria.

Oldbear83 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Just look at who the Democrats try to destroy along with their families long before the race begins and that will be our Republican nominee. I think the Dems and Trump are about to renew attacks on DeSantis.

Unless Trump can come out with a new line of Trump action figures or comic books, I think he is finished.

---

He, along with Pompeo and Hutchinson, are in the dead zone. They hold no office, so cannot easily do things that force the media to cover them. Trump for many reasons will outclass anyone similarly situated. His only true threats are sitting office holders, foremost among whom is RDS.

---

This whole mess is bass-ackward, you know. What we should be doing, is looking for the best solutions to key issues, and then find the candidate who best offers a way to make them happen.

Obsessing on personality is how you end up with Obama.

---

hard reality of politics - doesn't matter how great you'd be in office if nobody knows who you are. That's why incumbents have such a leg up. They've got some name ID. And they have some power they can leverage to raise money to run up their name ID. Part of that leverage is earned media....doing you job in a way that forces the media to cover you. It's like free advertising.

That dynamic is why RDS will do his best to be on the ticket somewhere in 2024. He leaves office in 2026 and will have dead-time until the next opportunity in 2028, right in the same bucket Trump, the folks noted above, etc....are in. Far weaker position to be. People forget you. You are no longer news.

It's not impossible. Just a lot harder..... The fact that RDS is Gov of FL is an enormous advantage over Trump. And he's doing a good job of exploiting it so far.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Just look at who the Democrats try to destroy along with their families long before the race begins and that will be our Republican nominee. I think the Dems and Trump are about to renew attacks on DeSantis.

Unless Trump can come out with a new line of Trump action figures or comic books, I think he is finished.

---

He, along with Pompeo and Hutchinson, are in the dead zone. They hold no office, so cannot easily do things that force the media to cover them. Trump for many reasons will outclass anyone similarly situated. His only true threats are sitting office holders, foremost among whom is RDS.

---

This whole mess is bass-ackward, you know. What we should be doing, is looking for the best solutions to key issues, and then find the candidate who best offers a way to make them happen.

Obsessing on personality is how you end up with Obama.

---

Weird that I never hear the TDSers critiquing Trump's policies. Seems like all personality-driven hysteria.

---

Some of them read like the cast of The View took over their accounts.

I'm ready for Trump to leave, but no one ever says "here are three policies from the Trump Administration with which I disagree," so just noting the usual irony.

So if we stopped all man-made carbon emissions today - literally all - how much would that reduce the global temperature in 100 years?

Oldbear83 said:

---

whiterock said:

---

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

---

Just look at who the Democrats try to destroy along with their families long before the race begins and that will be our Republican nominee. I think the Dems and Trump are about to renew attacks on DeSantis.

Unless Trump can come out with a new line of Trump action figures or comic books, I think he is finished.

---

He, along with Pompeo and Hutchinson, are in the dead zone. They hold no office, so cannot easily do things that force the media to cover them. Trump for many reasons will outclass anyone similarly situated. His only true threats are sitting office holders, foremost among whom is RDS.

---

This whole mess is bass-ackward, you know. What we should be doing, is looking for the best solutions to key issues, and then find the candidate who best offers a way to make them happen.

Obsessing on personality is how you end up with Obama.

---

It's been a spell since I've seen Republicans put out their solutions to key issues. There doesn't seem to be much of a plan there, other than "anyone but Biden." It would be nice to have some alternatives to the disastrous issues currently being propagated.

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

You missed your calling as a parodist.

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

You missed your calling as a parodist.

---

You missed your recommended reading--know thy enemy, as the saying goes. Of the posters here who reject your increasingly unpopular views, how many do you really think are left-wing elitists?

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

---

I pointed out an example this afternoon. Unlike Trump, other presidents haven't stolen documents from the White House and refused to return them.

Frustration with Democrats, though justified, is a poor guide to decision-making. Among other things it gives them too much control over us.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

---

I pointed out an example this afternoon. Unlike Trump, other presidents haven't stolen documents from the White House and refused to return them.

Frustration with Democrats, though justified, is a poor guide to decision-making. Among other things it gives them too much control over us.

---

They have they just were not prosecuted or had the FBI-Stassi do a show raid to recover them.

Can you show me where Trump had those nuclear codes we were all told he stole to sell to the Chinese, or was this like all the clear evidence in the impeachments and the January 6 TV Show that we were promised but never materialized by Shifty Shiff?

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

---

I pointed out an example this afternoon. Unlike Trump, other presidents haven't stolen documents from the White House and refused to return them.

Frustration with Democrats, though justified, is a poor guide to decision-making. Among other things it gives them too much control over us.

---

They have they just were not prosecuted or had the FBI-Stassi do a show raid to recover them.

Can you show me where Trump had those nuclear codes we were all told he stole to sell to the Chinese, or was this like all the clear evidence in the impeachments and the January 6 TV Show that we were promised but never materialized by Shifty Shiff?

---

Obama's documents have always been in NARA's custody. If you don't believe me, read the letter from NARA saying the documents have always been in their custody. I don't know what was in the documents that Trump took, but I know his refusal to return them left the government little choice but to act. Even conservative legal analysts have recognized this.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

---

I pointed out an example this afternoon. Unlike Trump, other presidents haven't stolen documents from the White House and refused to return them.

Frustration with Democrats, though justified, is a poor guide to decision-making. Among other things it gives them too much control over us.

---

They have they just were not prosecuted or had the FBI-Stassi do a show raid to recover them.

Can you show me where Trump had those nuclear codes we were all told he stole to sell to the Chinese, or was this like all the clear evidence in the impeachments and the January 6 TV Show that we were promised but never materialized by Shifty Shiff?

---

Obama's documents have always been in NARA's custody. If you don't believe me, read the letter from NARA saying the documents have always been in their custody. I don't know what was in the documents that Trump took, but I know his refusal to return them left the government little choice but to act. Even conservative legal analysts have recognized this.

---

If you can't figure out the different standards applied to Trump, Republicans, and Democrats especially by anti-Trump swampers I can explain it to you but I will never understand it for you. Kind of lack why the Clinton compound was not raided to get all the stuff they stole from the White House or the Clinton "Foundation" was considered a charity by the IRS but Obama sicked IRS agents on his political opponents.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

---

I pointed out an example this afternoon. Unlike Trump, other presidents haven't stolen documents from the White House and refused to return them.

Frustration with Democrats, though justified, is a poor guide to decision-making. Among other things it gives them too much control over us.

---

They have they just were not prosecuted or had the FBI-Stassi do a show raid to recover them.

Can you show me where Trump had those nuclear codes we were all told he stole to sell to the Chinese, or was this like all the clear evidence in the impeachments and the January 6 TV Show that we were promised but never materialized by Shifty Shiff?

---

Obama's documents have always been in NARA's custody. If you don't believe me, read the letter from NARA saying the documents have always been in their custody. I don't know what was in the documents that Trump took, but I know his refusal to return them left the government little choice but to act. Even conservative legal analysts have recognized this.

---

If you can't figure out the different standards applied to Trump, Republicans, and Democrats especially by anti-Trump swampers I can explain it to you but I will never understand it for you. Kind of lack why the Clinton compound was not raided to get all the stuff they stole from the White House or the Clinton "Foundation" was considered a charity by the IRS but Obama sicked IRS agents on his political opponents.

---

The items that Clinton took from the White House were designated as personal gifts. You'd really have to stretch to call that stealing. The effort wouldn't do you much good, though, since Bush did the same thing and wasn't prosecuted either. So that kind of undermines your "double standard" argument.

What Obama did with the IRS was reprehensible, but frankly he was a lot smarter about it than Trump. The only evidence he was even involved is circumstantial. And you must realize that how zealously such things are investigated depends greatly on who controls Congress. That cuts both ways and always has.

If your point is simply that left-wing bias exists and D.C. is more hospitable to Democrats, I don't disagree. But generalized complaining about persecution from the left falls a long, long way short of explaining the stuff that Trump has done since losing the last election. He's practically begging to be prosecuted. You may not agree, but if he has competent attorneys I guarantee you he's been told as much. Of course, with Trump that is always a big "if."

Sam Lowry said:

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Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

---

I pointed out an example this afternoon. Unlike Trump, other presidents haven't stolen documents from the White House and refused to return them.

Frustration with Democrats, though justified, is a poor guide to decision-making. Among other things it gives them too much control over us.

---

They have they just were not prosecuted or had the FBI-Stassi do a show raid to recover them.

Can you show me where Trump had those nuclear codes we were all told he stole to sell to the Chinese, or was this like all the clear evidence in the impeachments and the January 6 TV Show that we were promised but never materialized by Shifty Shiff?

---

Obama's documents have always been in NARA's custody. If you don't believe me, read the letter from NARA saying the documents have always been in their custody. I don't know what was in the documents that Trump took, but I know his refusal to return them left the government little choice but to act. Even conservative legal analysts have recognized this.

---

If you can't figure out the different standards applied to Trump, Republicans, and Democrats especially by anti-Trump swampers I can explain it to you but I will never understand it for you. Kind of lack why the Clinton compound was not raided to get all the stuff they stole from the White House or the Clinton "Foundation" was considered a charity by the IRS but Obama sicked IRS agents on his political opponents.

---

The items that Clinton took from the White House were designated as personal gifts. You'd really have to stretch to call that stealing. The effort wouldn't do you much good, though, since Bush did the same thing and wasn't prosecuted either. So that kind of undermines your "double standard" argument.

What Obama did with the IRS was reprehensible, but frankly he was a lot smarter about it than Trump. The only evidence he was even involved is circumstantial. And you must realize that how zealously such things are investigated depends greatly on who controls Congress. That cuts both ways and always has.

If your point is simply that left-wing bias exists and D.C. is more hospitable to Democrats, I don't disagree. But generalized complaining about persecution from the left falls a long, long way short of explaining the stuff that Trump has done since losing the last election. He's practically begging to be prosecuted. You may not agree, but if he has competent attorneys I guarantee you he's been told as much. Of course, with Trump that is always a big "if."

---

The Clintons literally stole historical artifacts from the White House.

The FBI did not kick in their doors with more than 50 armed agents. Obama did not return documents. The FBI did not kick in their doors.

Eric Holder refused to testify before Congress. He did not get prosecuted.

Biden took millions from foreign governments ... crickets.

Yet, the FBI is focused on raiding Trump's home for a few overdue library books ... and attacking journalists to return Biden's daughter's diary secured under lawful means.

You mentioned the rule of law. The current American government is attacking every amendment in the Bill of Rights and launching a full frontal attack on the rule of law from the Russian Hoax to whatever scheme it cooks up once DeSantis wins Iowa and New Hampshire (or whatever the new primaries are). There used to be a time when we all agreed to generally play by the same rules but every year the double standard becomes closer to authoritarianism ... we had the Reichstag Fire with the January 6 silliness ... how much more do you need to see to be at least somewhat concerned.

The difference between us is I can still see Trump as a flawed president that still deserves the same treatment under the rule of law. I do not change my principles based on whether or not I like the subject - I would have been an ACLU lawyer defending the Klan in Skokie. It is not hard for me both to detest Trump and believe he deserves fair treatment under law and polity.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

---

I pointed out an example this afternoon. Unlike Trump, other presidents haven't stolen documents from the White House and refused to return them.

Frustration with Democrats, though justified, is a poor guide to decision-making. Among other things it gives them too much control over us.

---

They have they just were not prosecuted or had the FBI-Stassi do a show raid to recover them.

Can you show me where Trump had those nuclear codes we were all told he stole to sell to the Chinese, or was this like all the clear evidence in the impeachments and the January 6 TV Show that we were promised but never materialized by Shifty Shiff?

---

Obama's documents have always been in NARA's custody. If you don't believe me, read the letter from NARA saying the documents have always been in their custody. I don't know what was in the documents that Trump took, but I know his refusal to return them left the government little choice but to act. Even conservative legal analysts have recognized this.

---

If you can't figure out the different standards applied to Trump, Republicans, and Democrats especially by anti-Trump swampers I can explain it to you but I will never understand it for you. Kind of lack why the Clinton compound was not raided to get all the stuff they stole from the White House or the Clinton "Foundation" was considered a charity by the IRS but Obama sicked IRS agents on his political opponents.

---

The items that Clinton took from the White House were designated as personal gifts. You'd really have to stretch to call that stealing. The effort wouldn't do you much good, though, since Bush did the same thing and wasn't prosecuted either. So that kind of undermines your "double standard" argument.

What Obama did with the IRS was reprehensible, but frankly he was a lot smarter about it than Trump. The only evidence he was even involved is circumstantial. And you must realize that how zealously such things are investigated depends greatly on who controls Congress. That cuts both ways and always has.

If your point is simply that left-wing bias exists and D.C. is more hospitable to Democrats, I don't disagree. But generalized complaining about persecution from the left falls a long, long way short of explaining the stuff that Trump has done since losing the last election. He's practically begging to be prosecuted. You may not agree, but if he has competent attorneys I guarantee you he's been told as much. Of course, with Trump that is always a big "if."

---

The Clintons literally stole historical artifacts from the White House.

The FBI did not kick in their doors with more than 50 armed agents. Obama did not return documents. The FBI did not kick in their doors.

Eric Holder refused to testify before Congress. He did not get prosecuted.

Biden took millions from foreign governments ... crickets.

Yet, the FBI is focused on raiding Trump's home for a few overdue library books ... and attacking journalists to return Biden's daughter's diary secured under lawful means.

You mentioned the rule of law. The current American government is attacking every amendment in the Bill of Rights and launching a full frontal attack on the rule of law from the Russian Hoax to whatever scheme it cooks up once DeSantis wins Iowa and New Hampshire (or whatever the new primaries are). There used to be a time when we all agreed to generally play by the same rules but every year the double standard becomes closer to authoritarianism ... we had the Reichstag Fire with the January 6 silliness ... how much more do you need to see to be at least somewhat concerned.

The difference between us is I can still see Trump as a flawed president that still deserves the same treatment under the rule of law. I do not change my principles based on whether or not I like the subject - I would have been an ACLU lawyer defending the Klan in Skokie. It is not hard for me both to detest Trump and believe he deserves fair treatment under law and polity.

---

Some good points and some obvious falsehoods. Will reply later when I can give it the time it deserves.

Referring to classified documents as "library books" is such a bad look, I'm baffled every time you do it. It's just like heaping piles of contempt on the whole notion of national security.

Sam Lowry said:

---

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

You'll never understand the anti-Trump mindset until you understand that some people are genuinely concerned about the rule of law. It's not only corrupt elites and virtue signalers that you're losing. What you do with that is up to you, but until you understand it you'll always be waging war against a cartoon version of your opponent. I'm sure you'll win lots of easy battles...until 2024 rolls around and you get to the one that counts.

---

The rule of law should cut both ways. To my knowledge Trump has done nothing concerning the rule of law that was not done by others in the Democrat Party. Part of people's pro-Trump reaction I suspect is the exhaustion at the double standards and the complete lack of self-awareness by TDSers and Democrats in general. The same people that proclaimed Ronald Reagan wants to start World War III and George W. Bush will suspend elections and declare himself emperor are the same behind Russian pee hookers and Normandy fake news and the other ad nauseam silliness breathlessly reported from "sources."

---

I pointed out an example this afternoon. Unlike Trump, other presidents haven't stolen documents from the White House and refused to return them.

Frustration with Trump, though justified, is a poor guide to decision-making. Among other things it gives them too much control over us.

---

FIFY

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

That would require that he win, which is not happening.

JXL said:

---

whiterock said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

Doc Holliday said:

---

I'm not gonna vote for uniparty loyalists. If the GOP thinks it can go back to establishment candidates, they're mistaken.

---

It would be a mistake, but not as bad as going back to Trump. Nominating him a third time would be an endorsement of J6, conspiracy theories, and everything else that he's stood for since the last election. I don't know how the party recovers from that.

---

Actually, the opposite. It would be a great big Foxtrot Uniform to all the virtue posturing nonsense you and establishment elites have been pushing for years. The joy of watching neverTrumpers choke on his next inauguration is perhaps the singular reason why someone should support him, for they are by any measure more contemptible than he could ever be.

Of course, no serious adult would ever let the desire for schafenfraude alone drive the agenda, but it is sorely tempting.

---

That would require that he win, which is not happening.

---

which is why I wrote that last sentence. He may or may not be our best option. Lots of time to evaluate.

I'm amused by how much Sam trusts and respects Obama, to the point of defending him while castigating Trump.

And no, I'm not impressed by the NARA, which has applied different standards over the years, up to and including making false statements to cover some officials they liked while lying to attack some they did not.

If you go back and read everything printed about the matter of documents used and kept by former Presidents, several things become obvious:

* Presidents like to write memoirs, and therefore they take certain papers with them for that purpose
* Some of those documents have been kept for years, with no worry from most people. Nixon, for example, had some documents in his library after his death which the Archives mistakenly believed were returned in the 1970s.
* The question of who owns documents written by a President, especially in his own handwriting, has never been clearly adjudicated. The courts have essentially expected the Archives and staffs of former Presidents to act like adults
* To date, for all the noise there is still zero evidence former President Trump committed any crime. In fact, there is as yet no evidence that he personally directed what papers to take from the White House when he left office

To paraphrase Shakespeare, this is all a play of great sound and fury, signifying only the flatulent sound and odor of the modern media.