ron.reagan said:

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KaiBear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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KaiBear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Golem said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Golem said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Looking at god's track record of letting us down he wouldn't even be my emergency contact

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Maybe you should pray to JHVH instead of the guy in the mirror.

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Last time I did I asked if he realized that there were probably children in Sodom. No answer. Classic terrorist.

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There probably were. They lived in a hellish culture of grooming, exploitation and violent rape. They were instantly rescued from it as their parents were incinerated. Death can be both a punishment and a release. You probably support euthanasia so you should agree.

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What a ****ed up person you are.

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Well you are ok with child grooming and child molestation/rape, so it's understandable you want to continue to perpetuate it. Leftists are evil.

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Christians are evil.

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You are trying too hard.

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You probably tell yourself that when you try to get out of bed in the morning

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Nope

Super grateful for every aspect of my life .

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Ignorance is bliss

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If so, you are the happiest person posting in this thread, ron.

Show everyone how wrong we are Ron. Delve into the conversation with something other than snide remarks.

In Who/What Do You ULTIMATELY Place Your Faith?

Is it you?

Is it science?

Is it the justice system?

Is it family?

Is it eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow, we die?

You've shot down a deity. You seemingly shot down people (at least Christian people)

Where does your ultimate faith reside? Where do you place your trust?

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Wrecks Quan Dough said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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My family.

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Is family > a deity?

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I don't have patience for head games. Even with God.

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Perhaps that is why He chose Abraham and Job to be examples to future humanity. They have patience and understood that what God was doing was not mere head games. They served their Creator despite the costs and served as instructive examples of obedience to humanity. They exhibited exemplary humility in their obedience. Abraham's story is a foreshadowing of God's own sacrifice--He provided for Himself a ram.

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I am a Christian and believe in God. I perceive God in the Old Testament as a vengeful and jealous God. God made a bet with the Devil and pretty much destroyed a man's life (Job's) to make a point. Even killing Job's children in the process. I wish I had such loyalty and patience, but I fall short. God can go ahead and take me and allow my children to live.

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No one has the authority to tell God who to take or when to take them. We have the choice to obey or not. Abraham and Job chose to obey and not curse God.

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I have not cursed God. I just don't want him to sacrifice my kids to test my loyalty. If God would cast me into the depths of Hell for this, He can go ahead and I will save a seat for Joe Biden.

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I did not say you cursed God. I don't think God has asked you to sacrifice any of your children. Not sure why it is an issue for you. God says to not sacrifice your children.

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That is hopefully the God I know and love. The Old Testament God was a work in progress. Kinda rough around the edges.

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The Old Testament God is the same as the New Testament God. Who do you think walked with Adam in the Garden, wrote the law and spoke face-to-face with Moses, led the Hebrews out of Egypt in the cloud and fire, was the rock that went with the Hebrews and provided them with water, accepted Gideon's sacrifice, talked with Abraham, etc...?

This is the same God. You need to see the grace that is present in the Old Testament.

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I saw much immorality and brutality in the Old Testament. Much polygamy. Slavery was the norm. Very little grace and a lot of rule by the iron fist.

Now the New Testament is a different story.

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The pastor of my church offers a pretty simple summary explanation for the two Testaments, which is the Old Testament provides an explanation of and presentation of THE problem which is the wrath of a righteous God toward sin - and we're ALL sinners. The New Testament provides an explanation of THE solution to THE problem which is belief in and acceptance of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of sin, combined with repentance of (changing of one's attitude toward) sin. There's of course still a lot that's hard or even impossible to understand in the Bible, but that's where faith comes in along with the realization that if we could understand it all with our finite human brains we'd be equal to God - and we obviously aren't.

ron.reagan said:

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I grew up going to GABC in Tyler, Became an atheist during my education at Baylor.

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What part of your education caused you to disbelieve? What proofs did you investigate?

ron.reagan said:

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Curious if you have done any true investigation into the non-existence of God.

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Yes. Brief story ... I'm a cradle-Catholic and a Vatican II baby. I was poorly catechized in my faith. I went thru the motions without ever fully understanding it. I knew that I would never leave the Church.

About the age of 40, I started teaching youth at my parish (including my kids). I never realized how much I didn't know about the Church. As I taught the youth, I had to learn so much to answer questions properly.

For me, I had to break down everything into logic. I started at the beginning. What is God? Does He exist? How did the universe begin? etc.

I studied St. Thomas' 5 Ways, moral arguments, cosmological arguments, Teleological arguments. I also investigated atheistic arguments against God and found them all misunderstanding who God is and always short of convincing.

I never really doubted but a combination of those arguments gave me the 100% assurance the God does exist.

I've been blessed with many other moments in my life when I felt God moving in my life (not just in the good times). Those feelings mean nothing to a non-beleiver, but to someone who believes, it's easy to see.

You would have been a fine Jesuit, Coke Bear.

Coke Bear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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I grew up going to GABC in Tyler, Became an atheist during my education at Baylor.

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What part of your education caused you to disbelieve? What proofs did you investigate?

ron.reagan said:

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Curious if you have done any true investigation into the non-existence of God.

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Yes. Brief story ... I'm a cradle-Catholic and a Vatican II baby. I was poorly catechized in my faith. I went thru the motions without ever fully understanding it. I knew that I would never leave the Church.

About the age of 40, I started teaching youth at my parish (including my kids). I never realized how much I didn't know about the Church. As I taught the youth, I had to learn so much to answer questions properly.

For me, I had to break down everything into logic. I started at the beginning. What is God? Does He exist? How did the universe begin? etc.

I studied St. Thomas' 5 Ways, moral arguments, cosmological arguments, Teleological arguments. I also investigated atheistic arguments against God and found them all misunderstanding who God is and always short of convincing.

I never really doubted but a combination of those arguments gave me the 100% assurance the God does exist.

I've been blessed with many other moments in my life when I felt God moving in my life (not just in the good times). Those feelings mean nothing to a non-beleiver, but to someone who believes, it's easy to see.

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the apparent worst year of my life was the year I drew closer to God than ever before. In that year my dads health failed causing my mom to work herself weary helping him, going the the heart failure clinic, multiple trips to the ER, then hospice and finally his death. Then my mom got diagnosed with cancer, then I lost my job. It sounds crazy to a non-believer but, God was evidenced almost weekly. You want something that really sounds nuts? It was wonderful!

Coke Bear: "I felt God moving in my life"

As did I, and I still do. I understand how some can deny God, when they see no evidence of Him.

I don't really have that option.

For one example, in 2006 I experienced sharp abdominal pains that were only partly my ruptured appendix. The appendectomy revealed a mass which came up malignant.

My first oncologist told my wife I had six weeks to live.

Later visits to MD Anderson proved that while the cancer is not curable, it was treatable.

My specific cancer has a 95% mortality rate, because it almost never is discovered until it metastasizes and attacks multiple internal organs. My ruptured appendix allowed doctors to find it early, and the mass just happened to be right where they were working anyway. They literally could not miss it.

No surgery, no loss of function, and 17 years after the diagnosis I am enjoying generally good health.

I am forced to consider that either a series of extremely fortunate coincidences, or something else.

The fact that my life has had more than a few such 'coincidences' makes it impossible for me to ignore the message.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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the apparent worst year of my life was the year I drew closer to God than ever before. In that year my dads health failed causing my mom to work herself weary helping him, going the the heart failure clinic, multiple trips to the ER, then hospice and finally his death. Then my mom got diagnosed with cancer, then I lost my job. It sounds crazy to a non-believer but, God was evidenced almost weekly. You want something that really sounds nuts? It was wonderful!

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It is indeed interesting that God allows us to walk thru the refiner's fire only to come out stronger and better after our ordeal.

I've had more than my fair share of personal issues. I'm sure that I'll have more. Lately I've tried to truly thank God for what He's allowing me to go thru (even though it's very hard to do sometimes.)

I'm glad that you came thru and grew through your ordeals!

ron.reagan said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Looking at god's track record of letting us down he wouldn't even be my emergency contact

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I see you took the easy route.

Again, this from the original post:

"Rejection of an option implies that a different option provides more evidence of reliability.

"In the same way that it is easy to smell a rotten egg but difficult to lay a good one, it will be easy to ridicule the ones you don't choose but more difficult to provide the evidence for what you do choose."

Ron, how about taking a more difficult route and tell us where your faith ultimately lies? I provided a handful of options and even encouraged readers to fill in the blank if the provided options didn't work

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Absolute faith is absolute ignorance. Which explains these forums.

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Ron, I guess I missed this earlier. Do you relate faith (religious faith) with blind faith? Is that why the cynicism is so prevalent?

ron.reagan said:

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KaiBear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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KaiBear said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Golem said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Golem said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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ron.reagan said:

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Looking at god's track record of letting us down he wouldn't even be my emergency contact

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Maybe you should pray to JHVH instead of the guy in the mirror.

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Last time I did I asked if he realized that there were probably children in Sodom. No answer. Classic terrorist.

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There probably were. They lived in a hellish culture of grooming, exploitation and violent rape. They were instantly rescued from it as their parents were incinerated. Death can be both a punishment and a release. You probably support euthanasia so you should agree.

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What a ****ed up person you are.

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Well you are ok with child grooming and child molestation/rape, so it's understandable you want to continue to perpetuate it. Leftists are evil.

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Christians are evil.

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You are trying too hard.

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You probably tell yourself that when you try to get out of bed in the morning

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Nope

Super grateful for every aspect of my life .

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Ignorance is bliss

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You might be ignorant, but you certainly don't possess any bliss.

Coke Bear said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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I saw much immorality and brutality in the Old Testament. Much polygamy. Slavery was the norm. Very little grace and a lot of rule by the iron fist.

Now the New Testament is a different story.

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This is a 2nd century heresy called Marcionism - the belief that the God of the OT and NT were different beings.

If you are interested in truly investigating some of your claims that you mention, I've recommended this book a few times on here:

Hard Sayings- A Catholic Approach to Answering Bible Difficulties

It gives a great deep-dive into nearly all of your objections and many more.

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Hello Coke Bear,

I will tell you what I told my Catholic Mom as a teenager. No thanks. I don't need a middleman to talk to God. My relationship with Him is much closer than that. That being said, I have great respect for the Catholic church and its parishioners. The priest/ kiddie diddling stuff is a little difficult to overlook, but I will have faith that God and the Catholic Church will sort things out and make major, necessary changes.

King David and his son, who later became King Solomon were two of the most revered characters in the Old Testament. David sent one of his military leaders to the front lines to be killed so David could take his wife, Bathsheba. David actually had ten wives. King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. My biggest two questions are, when did King Solomon have any time to be king? Did he know all of their names?

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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I saw much immorality and brutality in the Old Testament. Much polygamy. Slavery was the norm. Very little grace and a lot of rule by the iron fist.

Now the New Testament is a different story.

---

This is a 2nd century heresy called Marcionism - the belief that the God of the OT and NT were different beings.

If you are interested in truly investigating some of your claims that you mention, I've recommended this book a few times on here:

Hard Sayings- A Catholic Approach to Answering Bible Difficulties

It gives a great deep-dive into nearly all of your objections and many more.

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Hello Coke Bear,

I will tell you what I told my Catholic Mom as a teenager. No thanks. I don't need a middleman to talk to God. My relationship with Him is much closer than that. That being said, I have great respect for the Catholic church and its parishioners. The priest/ kiddie diddling stuff is a little difficult to overlook, but I will have faith that God and the Catholic Church will sort things out and make major, necessary changes.

King David and his son, who later became King Solomon were two of the most revered characters in the Old Testament. David sent one of his military leaders to the front lines to be killed so David could take his wife, Bathsheba. David actually had ten wives. King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. My biggest two questions are, when did King Solomon have any time to be king? Did he know all of their names?

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" Did he know all of their names?"

Sure. November 16 was one of his favorites, as was Birthday Present #2.

Oldbear83 said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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I saw much immorality and brutality in the Old Testament. Much polygamy. Slavery was the norm. Very little grace and a lot of rule by the iron fist.

Now the New Testament is a different story.

---

This is a 2nd century heresy called Marcionism - the belief that the God of the OT and NT were different beings.

If you are interested in truly investigating some of your claims that you mention, I've recommended this book a few times on here:

Hard Sayings- A Catholic Approach to Answering Bible Difficulties

It gives a great deep-dive into nearly all of your objections and many more.

---

Hello Coke Bear,

I will tell you what I told my Catholic Mom as a teenager. No thanks. I don't need a middleman to talk to God. My relationship with Him is much closer than that. That being said, I have great respect for the Catholic church and its parishioners. The priest/ kiddie diddling stuff is a little difficult to overlook, but I will have faith that God and the Catholic Church will sort things out and make major, necessary changes.

King David and his son, who later became King Solomon were two of the most revered characters in the Old Testament. David sent one of his military leaders to the front lines to be killed so David could take his wife, Bathsheba. David actually had ten wives. King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. My biggest two questions are, when did King Solomon have any time to be king? Did he know all of their names?

---

" Did he know all of their names?"

Sure. November 16 was one of his favorites, as was Birthday Present #2.

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Was November 16 a cuddler? Did she make a good ham sandwich? Was King Solomon allowed to eat pork? Inquiring minds want to know.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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I saw much immorality and brutality in the Old Testament. Much polygamy. Slavery was the norm. Very little grace and a lot of rule by the iron fist.

Now the New Testament is a different story.

---

This is a 2nd century heresy called Marcionism - the belief that the God of the OT and NT were different beings.

If you are interested in truly investigating some of your claims that you mention, I've recommended this book a few times on here:

Hard Sayings- A Catholic Approach to Answering Bible Difficulties

It gives a great deep-dive into nearly all of your objections and many more.

---

Hello Coke Bear,

I will tell you what I told my Catholic Mom as a teenager. No thanks. I don't need a middleman to talk to God. My relationship with Him is much closer than that. That being said, I have great respect for the Catholic church and its parishioners. The priest/ kiddie diddling stuff is a little difficult to overlook, but I will have faith that God and the Catholic Church will sort things out and make major, necessary changes.

King David and his son, who later became King Solomon were two of the most revered characters in the Old Testament. David sent one of his military leaders to the front lines to be killed so David could take his wife, Bathsheba. David actually had ten wives. King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. My biggest two questions are, when did King Solomon have any time to be king? Did he know all of their names?

---

" Did he know all of their names?"

Sure. November 16 was one of his favorites, as was Birthday Present #2.

---

Was November 16 a cuddler? Did she make a good ham sandwich? Was King Solomon allowed to eat pork? Inquiring minds want to know.

---

He has a concubine named The Bacon Babe. Soooooo...

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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I will tell you what I told my Catholic Mom as a teenager. No thanks. I don't need a middleman to talk to God. My relationship with Him is much closer than that.

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Catholics don't "need a middleman" either to talk to God. I talk to Him, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit everyday. Would you consider asking someone at your church to pray for you or someone else using a middle man. Some Catholics (including my self ask the saints in heaven to pray for us, just like we ask people on earth to pray for us.

RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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That being said, I have great respect for the Catholic church and its parishioners. The priest/ kiddie diddling stuff is a little difficult to overlook, but I will have faith that God and the Catholic Church will sort things out and make major, necessary changes.

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As with most Catholics that found out about when the scandal broke, I was angered, embarrassed, and outraged. Many of us wanted those priests and bishops removed from the clergy and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

After a great deal of investigation, the Church has learned that less than 4% of priests were every accused of these allegations. These is less than the national average of 6% in other lay people and even Protestant pastors. This doesn't make it acceptable. Churches should be places of complete safety and trust.

During the investigation the Church also learned that over 85% of the abused were post-pubescent boys (teens). During a terrible period (50's-80's) the Church was infiltrated with gay men hiding or who were recruited by rough bishops. When allegations were brought forward, they were swept under the rug. This was the WRONG thing to do. Doctors told church officials that these men could be changed / rehabilitated.
This was the incorrect answer. These men had severely deformed consciences. The Church has now developed more stringent psychological reviews (at least 4 tests) and nearly a year of spiritual discernment to root out men with severe disordered desires.

The Church is working to do better. Many organizations are reaching out to her to see what reforms and training they can copy. All individuals in the Church that work with youth or the elderly are required to take an Ethics in Ministry training and a background check every three years. I've been active in youth ministry for more that 12 years. No adult is allowed to be one-on-one with a youth. We will either have two adults with us or we must be visible by another adult when a youth want to talk.

Oldbear83 said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Oldbear83 said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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RD2WINAGNBEAR86 said:

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I saw much immorality and brutality in the Old Testament. Much polygamy. Slavery was the norm. Very little grace and a lot of rule by the iron fist.

Now the New Testament is a different story.

---

This is a 2nd century heresy called Marcionism - the belief that the God of the OT and NT were different beings.

If you are interested in truly investigating some of your claims that you mention, I've recommended this book a few times on here:

Hard Sayings- A Catholic Approach to Answering Bible Difficulties

It gives a great deep-dive into nearly all of your objections and many more.

---

Hello Coke Bear,

I will tell you what I told my Catholic Mom as a teenager. No thanks. I don't need a middleman to talk to God. My relationship with Him is much closer than that. That being said, I have great respect for the Catholic church and its parishioners. The priest/ kiddie diddling stuff is a little difficult to overlook, but I will have faith that God and the Catholic Church will sort things out and make major, necessary changes.

King David and his son, who later became King Solomon were two of the most revered characters in the Old Testament. David sent one of his military leaders to the front lines to be killed so David could take his wife, Bathsheba. David actually had ten wives. King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. My biggest two questions are, when did King Solomon have any time to be king? Did he know all of their names?

---

" Did he know all of their names?"

Sure. November 16 was one of his favorites, as was Birthday Present #2.

---

Was November 16 a cuddler? Did she make a good ham sandwich? Was King Solomon allowed to eat pork? Inquiring minds want to know.

---

He has a concubine named The Bacon Babe. Soooooo...

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Beef bacon or pork bacon?