parch said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

I mean opinions are one thing, and Lincoln can certainly be challenged on more than a few of his policies and decisions, but labeling him as "maybe our worst" president is a special category of stupid that sounds like it could've only come directly out of the mouth of a traitorous turncoat like Nathan Bedford Forrest.

---

Hard to think of another President who sparked off a massive civil war/war of secession that killed 600,000+ Americans.

Do we have another President who has as much American blood on his hands?

---

Lincoln sparked off? My guy, Lincoln literally said this in his inaugural.

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read: Resolved, That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the states, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes."

And he held this intention up until Beauregard opened up on Sumter and the states illegally broke with the constitution to form a legion of traitors - the South literally sparked it off. Lincoln was constitutionally obligated to act. Had he not, the constitution itself would have been rent asunder as a document of zero conformal meaning.

To take the agency of secession out of the Southern states' hands entirely is not something I've literally ever seen attempted in meaningful historical literature.

---

Yes he has no purpose to interfere with slavery. Again showing the problems with the modern lie that Lincoln was waging a war against slavery and for the slave.

What he was doing was waging a war to preserve the Union. By waging war against the states and the people who had voted to leave.


[the day after Lincoln asked for and received an amendment that would bolster the Militia Act of 1795 by changing the Insurrection Act to allow him, without the consent of a state, to use both federal troops and federalized state militias against the seven Southern states. Then, on the 15th of April, ignoring all the still unresolved or unadjudicated secession arguments and movements that had taken place in the country for almost a century, he issued a proclamation stating that since the seven Southern states he named were in insurrection against the government of the United States, he was calling for seventy-five thousand troops to be supplied to suppress the rebellion. In addition, Lincoln immediately brought several thousand state troops from Massachusetts and New York to Washington to garrison the capital.

Only then did the states of Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia also vote to secede and join the Confederacy.]

---

Upon his election Lincoln forced no man to surrender a slave, no man to surrender their rights, no man to pick up a musket. Those aims were forced on him, and he was successful in each one. An American hero.

---

Of course he did not. He never wanted to end slavery at all....or like Black people...your hero who had no problem with it.

Not only did he wish to maintain slavery, miss understand/miscalculate the political crisis at hand, but he also failed at almost everything in life he did...yet a hero?

[The Editor of Ebony Magazine comments on Abraham Lincoln..."On at least fourteen occasions between 1854 and 1860, Lincoln said unambiguously that he believed the Negro race was inferior to the White race. In Galesburg, he referred to 'the inferior races.' Who were 'the inferior races'? African Americans, he said, Mexicans, who he called 'mongrells," and probably all colored people." ~Lerone Bennett, Jr., Editor of Ebony Magazine, "Forced into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream" (Chicago: Johnson Publishing Co., 2000), p. 132]

"He [Lincoln] had no particular liking for the negro ; in fact, he would have been glad to deport every negro from the limits of the United States, if he could have done it."-Prof Channing (Pulitzer Prize Winning Harvard Historian from Massachusetts)

"Lincoln would not give way; his inaugural address had clearly stated his determination to maintain the Union & hold its property. But in believing that he could do this & still avoid war, he made 3 fatal errors. First, he temporarily underrated the gravity of the crisis. Second, he overrated the strength of Union sentiment in the South, as he showed in a futile effort to persuade Sam Houston of Texas to rally the nationalist groups. And lastly...he misconceived the conditional character of much Southern Unionism." -Prof Allan Nevins


"Mr. Lincoln is a plain man, without much education, and nobody but an incorrigible dunce, or a dishonest person who wishes to deceive others, would pretend to compare his literary efforts with those of Franklin Pierce or James Buchanan." -Peoria Daily, 3/7/61


1831 Failed in business.
1832 Ran for state legislature - lost.
1832 Also lost his job - wanted to go to law school but couldn't get in.
1833 Borrowed some money from a friend to begin a business and by the end of the year he was bankrupt. He spent the next 17 years of his life telling people he would pay off this debt..but failed to do so.
1835 Was engaged to be married, sweetheart died and his heart was broken.
1836 Had a total nervous breakdown and was in bed for six months.
1838 Sought to become speaker of the state legislature - defeated.
1840 Sought to become elector - defeated.
1843 Ran for Congress - lost.
1846 Ran for Congress again - this time he won - went to Washington and passed no legislation.
1848 Ran for re-election to Congress - lost.
1849 Sought the job of land officer in his home state - rejected.
1854 Ran for Senate of the United States - lost.
1856 Sought the Vice-Presidential nomination at his party's national convention - got less than 100 votes.
1858 Ran for U.S. Senate again - again he lost
1860 Ran for President, barley won with only 39% of the vote, started a massive war

I thought the topic was an interesting one, worth its own discussion.

Anyone know what the hijacker's demands are?

I think Lincoln was the original shyster lawyer/politician.

He was the model Joe Biden chose 50+ years ago!

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 123 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

---

Waco1947

1860 to current. I don't think any best or worst President list cannot include Lincoln, so I used him as the starting point.

1 - Lincoln - Was the best President policy-wise and without him there is no America as we know it

2 - Teddy Roosevelt - My favorite, a mix of strong defense, regulation, environmentalism and capitalism in a palatable mix.

3- Eisenhower - I liked his view on leaning toward the people socially, but fiscally conservative. I agree

4- FDR - I do not agree with everything he believed in, but he led America through the Depression and WW2. He left the US much stronger and balanced than when he entered office. I don't see how FDR can't be on this list.

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 123 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

---

1860 to current. I don't think any best or worst President list cannot include Lincoln, so I used him as the starting point.

1 - Lincoln - Was the best President policy-wise and without him there is no America as we know it

2 - Teddy Roosevelt - My favorite, a mix of strong defense, regulation, environmentalism and capitalism in a palatable mix.

3- Eisenhower - I liked his view on leaning toward the people socially, but fiscally conservative. I agree with his Foreign Policy. He was universally popular and knew how to work with the Dems.

4 - Reagan - Brought back American standards and pride.

5 - FDR - I do not agree with everything he believed in, but he led America through the Depression and WW2. He left the US much stronger and balanced than when he entered office. I don't see how FDR can't be on this list.

---

I like this list. I'd put Reagan at #2 and slide Teddy and Ike one place each.

You limited your list to 1860 - 2010 (or so), but I agree with whoever said Washington at #1. So going back to the beginning, Washington, Lincoln, Reagan ....

I think Washington has to be #1. He set the precedent for the rest in terms of power, tenure, etc. If he decided he wanted to be president for life, the United States would have been much different.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

I mean opinions are one thing, and Lincoln can certainly be challenged on more than a few of his policies and decisions, but labeling him as "maybe our worst" president is a special category of stupid that sounds like it could've only come directly out of the mouth of a traitorous turncoat like Nathan Bedford Forrest.

---

Hard to think of another President who sparked off a massive civil war/war of secession that killed 600,000+ Americans.

Do we have another President who has as much American blood on his hands?

---

I guess the South seceeding, taking Fort Sumter and forming the Army of Northern Virginia had nothing to do with sparking off a war!!!!

---

Did the Founding Fathers spark off a war by founding the Continental army and building up forces at Bunker Hill in Boston and Charleston?

Who invaded whom?

---

Yes, the Founding Fathers started a war to break away from England. According to the British, the Colonists were wrong. The Brits lost, the Federal Government did not. As I said, if Lincoln had lost the US as we know it would not exist.

You are saying that you believe that States have the right to declare war on the US.

---

A better question to ask is do people have the right to form their own governments and choose their own system of laws and their own political associations.

---

No. They do not.

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

I mean opinions are one thing, and Lincoln can certainly be challenged on more than a few of his policies and decisions, but labeling him as "maybe our worst" president is a special category of stupid that sounds like it could've only come directly out of the mouth of a traitorous turncoat like Nathan Bedford Forrest.

---

Hard to think of another President who sparked off a massive civil war/war of secession that killed 600,000+ Americans.

Do we have another President who has as much American blood on his hands?

---

Lincoln sparked off? My guy, Lincoln literally said this in his inaugural.

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read: Resolved, That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the states, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes."

And he held this intention up until Beauregard opened up on Sumter and the states illegally broke with the constitution to form a legion of traitors - the South literally sparked it off. Lincoln was constitutionally obligated to act. Had he not, the constitution itself would have been rent asunder as a document of zero conformal meaning.

To take the agency of secession out of the Southern states' hands entirely is not something I've literally ever seen attempted in meaningful historical literature.

---

Yes he has no purpose to interfere with slavery. Again showing the problems with the modern lie that Lincoln was waging a war against slavery and for the slave.

What he was doing was waging a war to preserve the Union. By waging war against the states and the people who had voted to leave.


[the day after Lincoln asked for and received an amendment that would bolster the Militia Act of 1795 by changing the Insurrection Act to allow him, without the consent of a state, to use both federal troops and federalized state militias against the seven Southern states. Then, on the 15th of April, ignoring all the still unresolved or unadjudicated secession arguments and movements that had taken place in the country for almost a century, he issued a proclamation stating that since the seven Southern states he named were in insurrection against the government of the United States, he was calling for seventy-five thousand troops to be supplied to suppress the rebellion. In addition, Lincoln immediately brought several thousand state troops from Massachusetts and New York to Washington to garrison the capital.

Only then did the states of Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia also vote to secede and join the Confederacy.]

---

Upon his election Lincoln forced no man to surrender a slave, no man to surrender their rights, no man to pick up a musket. Those aims were forced on him, and he was successful in each one. An American hero.

---

Of course he did not. He never wanted to end slavery at all....or like Black people...your hero who had no problem with it.

Not only did he wish to maintain slavery, miss understand/miscalculate the political crisis at hand, but he also failed at almost everything in life he did...yet a hero?

[The Editor of Ebony Magazine comments on Abraham Lincoln..."On at least fourteen occasions between 1854 and 1860, Lincoln said unambiguously that he believed the Negro race was inferior to the White race. In Galesburg, he referred to 'the inferior races.' Who were 'the inferior races'? African Americans, he said, Mexicans, who he called 'mongrells," and probably all colored people." ~Lerone Bennett, Jr., Editor of Ebony Magazine, "Forced into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream" (Chicago: Johnson Publishing Co., 2000), p. 132]

"He [Lincoln] had no particular liking for the negro ; in fact, he would have been glad to deport every negro from the limits of the United States, if he could have done it."-Prof Channing (Pulitzer Prize Winning Harvard Historian from Massachusetts)

"Lincoln would not give way; his inaugural address had clearly stated his determination to maintain the Union & hold its property. But in believing that he could do this & still avoid war, he made 3 fatal errors. First, he temporarily underrated the gravity of the crisis. Second, he overrated the strength of Union sentiment in the South, as he showed in a futile effort to persuade Sam Houston of Texas to rally the nationalist groups. And lastly...he misconceived the conditional character of much Southern Unionism." -Prof Allan Nevins


"Mr. Lincoln is a plain man, without much education, and nobody but an incorrigible dunce, or a dishonest person who wishes to deceive others, would pretend to compare his literary efforts with those of Franklin Pierce or James Buchanan." -Peoria Daily, 3/7/61


1831 Failed in business.
1832 Ran for state legislature - lost.
1832 Also lost his job - wanted to go to law school but couldn't get in.
1833 Borrowed some money from a friend to begin a business and by the end of the year he was bankrupt. He spent the next 17 years of his life telling people he would pay off this debt..but failed to do so.
1835 Was engaged to be married, sweetheart died and his heart was broken.
1836 Had a total nervous breakdown and was in bed for six months.
1838 Sought to become speaker of the state legislature - defeated.
1840 Sought to become elector - defeated.
1843 Ran for Congress - lost.
1846 Ran for Congress again - this time he won - went to Washington and passed no legislation.
1848 Ran for re-election to Congress - lost.
1849 Sought the job of land officer in his home state - rejected.
1854 Ran for Senate of the United States - lost.
1856 Sought the Vice-Presidential nomination at his party's national convention - got less than 100 votes.
1858 Ran for U.S. Senate again - again he lost
1860 Ran for President, barley won with only 39% of the vote, started a massive war

---

Firstly, you act like failure early in life precludes greatness? As if I can't list off hundreds of the world's most successful, influential people who experienced nothing but failure and rejection before the age of 40. What a sad, shortsighted litmus for greatness.

Secondly, Lincoln was and still is one of the greatest leaders of all time. But he was not a social justice warrior, and while he personally abhorred it he was not particularly wedded to the slavery issue before it was politically expedient to be so. Nobody in mainstream politics was at the time, so to somehow hold that against him seems strange and needlessly vindictive.

You are arguing against a point I'm not making. He is greatness personified precisely because he prosecuted a war against a group of traitors to keep the union together. Your listed critics of Lincoln are either aggrieved members of the black community saying Lincoln didn't go far enough - which is fair but also not politically possible in those days - politicians with axes to grind, old sources that have been plowed over by new research, or outright Confederates.

I'm glad no respected historian has your view and that it is limited to a fringe group of Confederate sympathizers, where it will continue to languish in darkness and obscurity for all time.

1. Washington
2. Lincoln
3. Jefferson
4. FDR
5. Teddy R.
6. Polk
7. Jackson
8. Reagan
9. Madison
10. Eisenhower

parch said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

parch said:

---

I mean opinions are one thing, and Lincoln can certainly be challenged on more than a few of his policies and decisions, but labeling him as "maybe our worst" president is a special category of stupid that sounds like it could've only come directly out of the mouth of a traitorous turncoat like Nathan Bedford Forrest.

---

Hard to think of another President who sparked off a massive civil war/war of secession that killed 600,000+ Americans.

Do we have another President who has as much American blood on his hands?

---

Lincoln sparked off? My guy, Lincoln literally said this in his inaugural.

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. Those who nominated and elected me did so with full knowledge that I had made this and many similar declarations and had never recanted them; and more than this, they placed in the platform for my acceptance, and as a law to themselves and to me, the clear and emphatic resolution which I now read: Resolved, That the maintenance inviolate of the rights of the states, and especially the right of each State to order and control its own domestic institutions according to its own judgment exclusively, is essential to that balance of power on which the perfection and endurance of our political fabric depend; and we denounce the lawless invasion by armed force of the soil of any State or Territory, no matter what pretext, as among the gravest of crimes."

And he held this intention up until Beauregard opened up on Sumter and the states illegally broke with the constitution to form a legion of traitors - the South literally sparked it off. Lincoln was constitutionally obligated to act. Had he not, the constitution itself would have been rent asunder as a document of zero conformal meaning.

To take the agency of secession out of the Southern states' hands entirely is not something I've literally ever seen attempted in meaningful historical literature.

---

Yes he has no purpose to interfere with slavery. Again showing the problems with the modern lie that Lincoln was waging a war against slavery and for the slave.

What he was doing was waging a war to preserve the Union. By waging war against the states and the people who had voted to leave.


[the day after Lincoln asked for and received an amendment that would bolster the Militia Act of 1795 by changing the Insurrection Act to allow him, without the consent of a state, to use both federal troops and federalized state militias against the seven Southern states. Then, on the 15th of April, ignoring all the still unresolved or unadjudicated secession arguments and movements that had taken place in the country for almost a century, he issued a proclamation stating that since the seven Southern states he named were in insurrection against the government of the United States, he was calling for seventy-five thousand troops to be supplied to suppress the rebellion. In addition, Lincoln immediately brought several thousand state troops from Massachusetts and New York to Washington to garrison the capital.

Only then did the states of Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia also vote to secede and join the Confederacy.]

---

Upon his election Lincoln forced no man to surrender a slave, no man to surrender their rights, no man to pick up a musket. Those aims were forced on him, and he was successful in each one. An American hero.

---

Of course he did not. He never wanted to end slavery at all....or like Black people...your hero who had no problem with it.

Not only did he wish to maintain slavery, miss understand/miscalculate the political crisis at hand, but he also failed at almost everything in life he did...yet a hero?

[The Editor of Ebony Magazine comments on Abraham Lincoln..."On at least fourteen occasions between 1854 and 1860, Lincoln said unambiguously that he believed the Negro race was inferior to the White race. In Galesburg, he referred to 'the inferior races.' Who were 'the inferior races'? African Americans, he said, Mexicans, who he called 'mongrells," and probably all colored people." ~Lerone Bennett, Jr., Editor of Ebony Magazine, "Forced into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream" (Chicago: Johnson Publishing Co., 2000), p. 132]

"He [Lincoln] had no particular liking for the negro ; in fact, he would have been glad to deport every negro from the limits of the United States, if he could have done it."-Prof Channing (Pulitzer Prize Winning Harvard Historian from Massachusetts)

"Lincoln would not give way; his inaugural address had clearly stated his determination to maintain the Union & hold its property. But in believing that he could do this & still avoid war, he made 3 fatal errors. First, he temporarily underrated the gravity of the crisis. Second, he overrated the strength of Union sentiment in the South, as he showed in a futile effort to persuade Sam Houston of Texas to rally the nationalist groups. And lastly...he misconceived the conditional character of much Southern Unionism." -Prof Allan Nevins


"Mr. Lincoln is a plain man, without much education, and nobody but an incorrigible dunce, or a dishonest person who wishes to deceive others, would pretend to compare his literary efforts with those of Franklin Pierce or James Buchanan." -Peoria Daily, 3/7/61


1831 Failed in business.
1832 Ran for state legislature - lost.
1832 Also lost his job - wanted to go to law school but couldn't get in.
1833 Borrowed some money from a friend to begin a business and by the end of the year he was bankrupt. He spent the next 17 years of his life telling people he would pay off this debt..but failed to do so.
1835 Was engaged to be married, sweetheart died and his heart was broken.
1836 Had a total nervous breakdown and was in bed for six months.
1838 Sought to become speaker of the state legislature - defeated.
1840 Sought to become elector - defeated.
1843 Ran for Congress - lost.
1846 Ran for Congress again - this time he won - went to Washington and passed no legislation.
1848 Ran for re-election to Congress - lost.
1849 Sought the job of land officer in his home state - rejected.
1854 Ran for Senate of the United States - lost.
1856 Sought the Vice-Presidential nomination at his party's national convention - got less than 100 votes.
1858 Ran for U.S. Senate again - again he lost
1860 Ran for President, barley won with only 39% of the vote, started a massive war

---

Firstly, you act like failure early in life precludes greatness? As if I can't list off hundreds of the world's most successful, influential people who experienced nothing but failure and rejection before the age of 40. What a sad, shortsighted litmus for greatness.

Secondly, Lincoln was and still is one of the greatest leaders of all time. But he was not a social justice warrior, and while he personally abhorred it he was not particularly wedded to the slavery issue before it was politically expedient to be so. Nobody in mainstream politics was at the time, so to somehow hold that against him seems strange and needlessly vindictive.

You are arguing against a point I'm not making. He is greatness personified precisely because he prosecuted a war against a group of traitors to keep the union together. Your listed critics of Lincoln are either aggrieved members of the black community saying Lincoln didn't go far enough - which is fair but also not politically possible in those days - politicians with axes to grind, old sources that have been plowed over by new research, or outright Confederates.

I'm glad no respected historian has your view and that it is limited to a fringe group of Confederate sympathizers, where it will continue to languish in darkness and obscurity for all time.

---

Asserting the right to self determination and self government has never been and never will be treason.

Unless of course the Founding fathers were traitors…and Steven F. Austin was a traitor.

Lincoln was a manic depressive personality and his endless list of political failures simply shows he was unfit for the office of President and unprepared for the crisis that his election created.

Killing 600,000+ People was his accomplishment….your "hero"


P.S.

Prof Channing (Pulitzer Prize Winning Harvard Historian from Massachusetts)

Prof. Allan Nevins (University of Illinois and Columbia)


All Famous confederates….

Donald J. Trump.

Warren G. Harding
In my top 5 because he ran on minimizing federal government power and stuck to it.

I see these videos and realize arguing about this stuff is pointless.

Most Americans don't even know anything about the American revolution….much less anything else.

The U.S. education system, ladies and gentlemen ... 🫠

🔊 pic.twitter.com/HjUkF4BXsm

— Wall Street Silver (@WallStreetSilv) August 1, 2023

Ummm, Madison tried to invade Canada and got DC sacked as a consequence. The War of 1812 did not have to happen.

BUwolverine2012 said:

---

Donald J. Trump.

---

Gesundheit.

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 12 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

Corrected from 123 years to 12

---

Best presidents in American history .

1. George Washington

2. FDR

3. Ronald Reagan

4. Theodore Roosevelt

5. Polk

6. Thomas Jefferson

7. John Adams

8. George H W Bush

9. Truman

10. Taft

Oldbear83 said:

---

Ummm, Madison tried to invade Canada and got DC sacked as a consequence. The War of 1812 did not have to happen.

---

He is also the person most responsible for the Constitution.

Harrison Bergeron said:

---

I think Washington has to be #1. He set the precedent for the rest in terms of power, tenure, etc. If he decided he wanted to be president for life, the United States would have been much different.

---

You nailed it here. Well said.

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 123 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

---

1860 to current. I don't think any best or worst President list cannot include Lincoln, so I used him as the starting point.

1 - Lincoln - Was the best President policy-wise and without him there is no America as we know it

2 - Teddy Roosevelt - My favorite, a mix of strong defense, regulation, environmentalism and capitalism in a palatable mix.

3- Eisenhower - I liked his view on leaning toward the people socially, but fiscally conservative. I agree with his Foreign Policy. He was universally popular and knew how to work with the Dems.

4 - Reagan - Brought back American standards and pride.

5 - FDR - I do not agree with everything he believed in, but he led America through the Depression and WW2. He left the US much stronger and balanced than when he entered office. I don't see how FDR can't be on this list.

---

Laughably untrue.

He is probably our worst. No other USA president shredded the Constitution or killed so many Americans (600,000)

Hitler and Hideki Tojo did not kill as many (400,000 death in WWII)

All with the worst Constitutional justification.


[ Abraham Lincoln's Presidential record was notable for his despotic use of power and his blatant disregard for the Constitution. Lincoln ordered thousands of arrests, kept political enemies in prison without bringing charges against them, refused these hapless men their right to trial by a jury of their peers, and ignored orders from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to release them. In his first few months in office he made the most direct violations of the Constitution in the Nation's history. He increased the size of the Regular Army without Congressional approval, spent money without Congressional authorization, suspended the writ of habeas corpus without authority and generally acted as if he had never heard of the other two branches of the government.] ~ Michael Hutcheson

"Mr. Lincoln is quite a genuine Representative of American prejudiced and negro hatred and far more concerned for the preservation of slavery…showing all his inconsistencies, his pride of race and blood, his contempt for Negros and his constant hypocrisy… Mr. Lincoln takes care in urging his colonization scheme to furnish a weapon to all the ignorant and base." -Frederick Douglas, Taken from The Life and Writings of Frederick Douglas.

---

I figured would hear from you on that.

---

It's necessary to fight Lincoln worship and propaganda whenever you see it.

Average Americans don't even know about Polk....yet they think Lincoln fought a war to free slaves.

Its wild.

---

What?!? You mean all those Yankees at age 18 give or take didn't decide dammit I'm tired of that slavery down there. I'll gladly take a bullet if it will helpmfeee some saves

I'm certain of it. The north loved the blacks and hated how all the whites were treating me down south

I wonder how many white people when owned slaves? And what % of white people that represented in the time.

In my opinion Polk is easily the most underrated president in US history.

Redbrickbear said:

---

I see these videos and realize arguing about this stuff is pointless.

Most Americans don't even know anything about the American revolution….much less anything else.

The U.S. education system, ladies and gentlemen ... 🫠

🔊 pic.twitter.com/HjUkF4BXsm

— Wall Street Silver (@WallStreetSilv) August 1, 2023

---

The majority of these people probably have college degrees and are therefore educated and overwhelmingly probably vote for socialism by voting Democrat or mailing in a few votes for Democrat

1. William Henry Harrison. Old Tippencanoe was elected. Gave a loooong ass speech. Got pneumonia. Died.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 123 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

---

1860 to current. I don't think any best or worst President list cannot include Lincoln, so I used him as the starting point.

1 - Lincoln - Was the best President policy-wise and without him there is no America as we know it

2 - Teddy Roosevelt - My favorite, a mix of strong defense, regulation, environmentalism and capitalism in a palatable mix.

3- Eisenhower - I liked his view on leaning toward the people socially, but fiscally conservative. I agree with his Foreign Policy. He was universally popular and knew how to work with the Dems.

4 - Reagan - Brought back American standards and pride.

5 - FDR - I do not agree with everything he believed in, but he led America through the Depression and WW2. He left the US much stronger and balanced than when he entered office. I don't see how FDR can't be on this list.

---

Laughably untrue.

He is probably our worst. No other USA president shredded the Constitution or killed so many Americans (600,000)

Hitler and Hideki Tojo did not kill as many (400,000 death in WWII)

All with the worst Constitutional justification.


[ Abraham Lincoln's Presidential record was notable for his despotic use of power and his blatant disregard for the Constitution. Lincoln ordered thousands of arrests, kept political enemies in prison without bringing charges against them, refused these hapless men their right to trial by a jury of their peers, and ignored orders from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to release them. In his first few months in office he made the most direct violations of the Constitution in the Nation's history. He increased the size of the Regular Army without Congressional approval, spent money without Congressional authorization, suspended the writ of habeas corpus without authority and generally acted as if he had never heard of the other two branches of the government.] ~ Michael Hutcheson

"Mr. Lincoln is quite a genuine Representative of American prejudiced and negro hatred and far more concerned for the preservation of slavery…showing all his inconsistencies, his pride of race and blood, his contempt for Negros and his constant hypocrisy… Mr. Lincoln takes care in urging his colonization scheme to furnish a weapon to all the ignorant and base." -Frederick Douglas, Taken from The Life and Writings of Frederick Douglas.

---

I figured would hear from you on that.

---

It's necessary to fight Lincoln worship and propaganda whenever you see it.

Average Americans don't even know about Polk....yet they think Lincoln fought a war to free slaves.

Its wild.

---

What?!? You mean all those Yankees at age 18 give or take didn't decide dammit I'm tired of that slavery down there. I'll gladly take a bullet if it will helpmfeee some saves

I'm certain of it. The north loved the blacks and hated how all the whites were treating me down south

I wonder how many white people when owned slaves? And what % of white people that represented in the time.

---

Next time in Savannah, visit Ft Jackson. It is maintained by State of Georgia Historic Agency. It goes into the local view of Civil War. Really interesting.

Fre3dombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

I see these videos and realize arguing about this stuff is pointless.

Most Americans don't even know anything about the American revolution….much less anything else.

The U.S. education system, ladies and gentlemen ... 🫠

🔊 pic.twitter.com/HjUkF4BXsm

— Wall Street Silver (@WallStreetSilv) August 1, 2023

---

The majority of these people probably have college degrees and are therefore educated and overwhelmingly probably vote for socialism by voting Democrat or mailing in a few votes for Democrat

---

Well, when you take Liberal Arts out of the curriculum and only value STEM, you will end up with a society of well trained idiots.

If there are no standards and you just pass them along you end up with a society of idiots, period.

KaiBear said:

---

In my opinion Polk is easily the most underrated president in US history.

---

100%

Redbrickbear said:

---

I see these videos and realize arguing about this stuff is pointless.

Most Americans don't even know anything about the American revolution….much less anything else.

The U.S. education system, ladies and gentlemen ... 🫠

🔊 pic.twitter.com/HjUkF4BXsm

— Wall Street Silver (@WallStreetSilv) August 1, 2023

---

Videos are edited. How many got the right answer? We were not shown the people who got it right. They consistently got the Civil War and the American Revolution. confused. The videos are in a crowded bar scene , it was noisy and the kids just popped off what ever came to their heads.

I have seen videos of Trump supporters just as confused but again logical thinking people are edited out. The videos are in a crowded rally scene , it was noisy and the people just popped off what ever came to their heads.

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 12 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

Corrected from 123 years to 12

---

Abraham Lincoln

George Washington

Thomas Jefferson

John Adams

FDR


Theodore Roosevelt

JFK

Woodrow Wilson

Eisenhauer

Richard Nixon (for China)

Waco1947 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

I see these videos and realize arguing about this stuff is pointless.

Most Americans don't even know anything about the American revolution….much less anything else.

The U.S. education system, ladies and gentlemen ... 🫠

🔊 pic.twitter.com/HjUkF4BXsm

— Wall Street Silver (@WallStreetSilv) August 1, 2023

---

Videos are edited. How many got the right answer? We were not shown the people who got it right. They consistently got the Civil War and the American Revolution. confused. The videos are in a crowded bar scene , it was noisy and the kids just popped off what ever came to their heads.

I have seen videos of Trump supporters just as confused but again logical thinking people are edited out. The videos are in a crowded rally scene , it was noisy and the people just popped off what ever came to their heads.

---

Probably true.

But I think the real numbers are still pretty wild.

[A new survey found that Americans have an abysmal knowledge of the nation's history and a majority of residents in only one state, Vermont, could pass a citizenship test.
The Woodrow Wilson National Fellowship Foundation surveyed 41,000 Americans in all 50 states and Washington, DC, the organization said Friday.

Most disturbingly, the results show that only 27 percent of those under the age of 45 across the country demonstrate a basic knowledge of American history. And only four in 10 Americans passed the exam.
Even in the Green Mountain State, the pass rate was just 53 percent.

A quarter of survey-takers were unaware that freedom of speech was guaranteed under the First Amendment and 57 percent did not know that Woodrow Wilson was president during World War I.

The distressing results show that "American history education is not working, as students are asked to memorize dates, events and leaders, which the poll results shows are not retained in adulthood," Levine said.]

https://nypost.com/2019/02/15/americans-dont-know-much-about-nations-history-survey/

C. Jordan said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 12 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

Corrected from 123 years to 12

---

Abraham Lincoln

George Washington

Thomas Jefferson

John Adams

FDR


Theodore Roosevelt

JFK

Woodrow Wilson

Eisenhauer

Richard Nixon (for China)

---

Honest questions.

Why in the world would Woodrow Wilson make anyone's top 10 list ?

Exactly what did JFK accomplish as president besides bedding dozens of women while married to Jackie ?

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

I see these videos and realize arguing about this stuff is pointless.

Most Americans don't even know anything about the American revolution….much less anything else.

The U.S. education system, ladies and gentlemen ... 🫠

🔊 pic.twitter.com/HjUkF4BXsm

— Wall Street Silver (@WallStreetSilv) August 1, 2023

---

The majority of these people probably have college degrees and are therefore educated and overwhelmingly probably vote for socialism by voting Democrat or mailing in a few votes for Democrat

---

Well, when you take Liberal Arts out of the curriculum and only value STEM, you will end up with a society of well trained idiots.

If there are no standards and you just pass them along you end up with a society of idiots, period.

---

I'd imagine 90%+ of those interviewed were stem graduates.

Oldbear83 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 123 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

---

1860 to current. I don't think any best or worst President list cannot include Lincoln, so I used him as the starting point.

1 - Lincoln - Was the best President policy-wise and without him there is no America as we know it

2 - Teddy Roosevelt - My favorite, a mix of strong defense, regulation, environmentalism and capitalism in a palatable mix.

3- Eisenhower - I liked his view on leaning toward the people socially, but fiscally conservative. I agree with his Foreign Policy. He was universally popular and knew how to work with the Dems.

4 - Reagan - Brought back American standards and pride.

5 - FDR - I do not agree with everything he believed in, but he led America through the Depression and WW2. He left the US much stronger and balanced than when he entered office. I don't see how FDR can't be on this list.

---

Laughably untrue.

He is probably our worst. No other USA president shredded the Constitution or killed so many Americans (600,000)

Hitler and Hideki Tojo did not kill as many (400,000 death in WWII)

All with the worst Constitutional justification.


[ Abraham Lincoln's Presidential record was notable for his despotic use of power and his blatant disregard for the Constitution. Lincoln ordered thousands of arrests, kept political enemies in prison without bringing charges against them, refused these hapless men their right to trial by a jury of their peers, and ignored orders from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to release them. In his first few months in office he made the most direct violations of the Constitution in the Nation's history. He increased the size of the Regular Army without Congressional approval, spent money without Congressional authorization, suspended the writ of habeas corpus without authority and generally acted as if he had never heard of the other two branches of the government.] ~ Michael Hutcheson

"Mr. Lincoln is quite a genuine Representative of American prejudiced and negro hatred and far more concerned for the preservation of slavery…showing all his inconsistencies, his pride of race and blood, his contempt for Negros and his constant hypocrisy… Mr. Lincoln takes care in urging his colonization scheme to furnish a weapon to all the ignorant and base." -Frederick Douglas, Taken from The Life and Writings of Frederick Douglas.

---

I figured would hear from you on that.

---

It's necessary to fight Lincoln worship and propaganda whenever you see it.

Average Americans don't even know about Polk....yet they think Lincoln fought a war to free slaves.

Its wild.

---

Most Americans don't know that Wilson entertained KKK leaders as honored guests at the White House.

They also don't know that Watergate, bad as it was, was provoked at least in part by Nixon's discovery that the Kennedy campaign spied on his office in 1960.

Most Americans also don't know that Grover Cleveland was once Sheriff of Erie County, and was also accused of rape (Maria Halpin).

---

The first motion pictures showed in the White House was under Wilson & it was Birth of a Nation which glorified the Klan. He was a viscous racist among many other sins.

historian said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 123 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

---

1860 to current. I don't think any best or worst President list cannot include Lincoln, so I used him as the starting point.

1 - Lincoln - Was the best President policy-wise and without him there is no America as we know it

2 - Teddy Roosevelt - My favorite, a mix of strong defense, regulation, environmentalism and capitalism in a palatable mix.

3- Eisenhower - I liked his view on leaning toward the people socially, but fiscally conservative. I agree with his Foreign Policy. He was universally popular and knew how to work with the Dems.

4 - Reagan - Brought back American standards and pride.

5 - FDR - I do not agree with everything he believed in, but he led America through the Depression and WW2. He left the US much stronger and balanced than when he entered office. I don't see how FDR can't be on this list.

---

Laughably untrue.

He is probably our worst. No other USA president shredded the Constitution or killed so many Americans (600,000)

Hitler and Hideki Tojo did not kill as many (400,000 death in WWII)

All with the worst Constitutional justification.


[ Abraham Lincoln's Presidential record was notable for his despotic use of power and his blatant disregard for the Constitution. Lincoln ordered thousands of arrests, kept political enemies in prison without bringing charges against them, refused these hapless men their right to trial by a jury of their peers, and ignored orders from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to release them. In his first few months in office he made the most direct violations of the Constitution in the Nation's history. He increased the size of the Regular Army without Congressional approval, spent money without Congressional authorization, suspended the writ of habeas corpus without authority and generally acted as if he had never heard of the other two branches of the government.] ~ Michael Hutcheson

"Mr. Lincoln is quite a genuine Representative of American prejudiced and negro hatred and far more concerned for the preservation of slavery…showing all his inconsistencies, his pride of race and blood, his contempt for Negros and his constant hypocrisy… Mr. Lincoln takes care in urging his colonization scheme to furnish a weapon to all the ignorant and base." -Frederick Douglas, Taken from The Life and Writings of Frederick Douglas.

---

I figured would hear from you on that.

---

It's necessary to fight Lincoln worship and propaganda whenever you see it.

Average Americans don't even know about Polk....yet they think Lincoln fought a war to free slaves.

Its wild.

---

Most Americans don't know that Wilson entertained KKK leaders as honored guests at the White House.

They also don't know that Watergate, bad as it was, was provoked at least in part by Nixon's discovery that the Kennedy campaign spied on his office in 1960.

Most Americans also don't know that Grover Cleveland was once Sheriff of Erie County, and was also accused of rape (Maria Halpin).

---

The first motion pictures showed in the White House was under Wilson & it was Birth of a Nation which glorified the Klan. He was a viscous racist among many other sins.

---

Woodrow Wilson dragged an unwilling US into the slaughter fields of WW1.

In his haste to ship hundreds of thousands of young U.S. soldiers to France; Wilson actively censored information about the Spanish Influenza epidemic.

Crammed full of soldiers, the troopships became the perfect breeding ground for the virus. Thousands died .

Not the objective of the post but after reading the comments: James Buchanan is clearly the worst. Whatever criticisms of Lincoln there are they were put into motion by Buchanan not stabilizing the Union.

The best President is hands down Calvin Coolidge.

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 123 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

---

1860 to current. I don't think any best or worst President list cannot include Lincoln, so I used him as the starting point.

1 - Lincoln - Was the best President policy-wise and without him there is no America as we know it

2 - Teddy Roosevelt - My favorite, a mix of strong defense, regulation, environmentalism and capitalism in a palatable mix.

3- Eisenhower - I liked his view on leaning toward the people socially, but fiscally conservative. I agree with his Foreign Policy. He was universally popular and knew how to work with the Dems.

4 - Reagan - Brought back American standards and pride.

5 - FDR - I do not agree with everything he believed in, but he led America through the Depression and WW2. He left the US much stronger and balanced than when he entered office. I don't see how FDR can't be on this list.

---

Laughably untrue.

He is probably our worst. No other USA president shredded the Constitution or killed so many Americans (600,000)

Hitler and Hideki Tojo did not kill as many (400,000 death in WWII)

All with the worst Constitutional justification.


[ Abraham Lincoln's Presidential record was notable for his despotic use of power and his blatant disregard for the Constitution. Lincoln ordered thousands of arrests, kept political enemies in prison without bringing charges against them, refused these hapless men their right to trial by a jury of their peers, and ignored orders from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to release them. In his first few months in office he made the most direct violations of the Constitution in the Nation's history. He increased the size of the Regular Army without Congressional approval, spent money without Congressional authorization, suspended the writ of habeas corpus without authority and generally acted as if he had never heard of the other two branches of the government.] ~ Michael Hutcheson

"Mr. Lincoln is quite a genuine Representative of American prejudiced and negro hatred and far more concerned for the preservation of slavery…showing all his inconsistencies, his pride of race and blood, his contempt for Negros and his constant hypocrisy… Mr. Lincoln takes care in urging his colonization scheme to furnish a weapon to all the ignorant and base." -Frederick Douglas, Taken from The Life and Writings of Frederick Douglas.

---

I figured would hear from you on that.

---

It's necessary to fight Lincoln worship and propaganda whenever you see it.

Average Americans don't even know about Polk....yet they think Lincoln fought a war to free slaves.

Its wild.

---

Most Americans don't know that Wilson entertained KKK leaders as honored guests at the White House.

They also don't know that Watergate, bad as it was, was provoked at least in part by Nixon's discovery that the Kennedy campaign spied on his office in 1960.

Most Americans also don't know that Grover Cleveland was once Sheriff of Erie County, and was also accused of rape (Maria Halpin).

---

The first motion pictures showed in the White House was under Wilson & it was Birth of a Nation which glorified the Klan. He was a viscous racist among many other sins.

---

Woodrow Wilson dragged an unwilling US into the slaughter fields of WW1.

In his haste to ship hundreds of thousands of young U.S. soldiers to France; Wilson actively censored information about the Spanish Influenza epidemic.

Crammed full of soldiers, the troopships became the perfect breeding ground for the virus. Thousands died .

---

So US should have stayed out of WW1? WW2?

FLBear5630 said:

---

KaiBear said:

---

historian said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Redbrickbear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Oldbear83 said:

---

In another thread, people are discussing their 'ten worst' US Presidents. I'd like to be more positive and ask for your top ten, with the following conditions:

• No President who has not been out of office for at least 123 years. That used to be the standard for professional historians, who understood that time can change the perception of a President for better or worse
• Please note your criteria for what makes a President great

Thanks in advance

---

1860 to current. I don't think any best or worst President list cannot include Lincoln, so I used him as the starting point.

1 - Lincoln - Was the best President policy-wise and without him there is no America as we know it

2 - Teddy Roosevelt - My favorite, a mix of strong defense, regulation, environmentalism and capitalism in a palatable mix.

3- Eisenhower - I liked his view on leaning toward the people socially, but fiscally conservative. I agree with his Foreign Policy. He was universally popular and knew how to work with the Dems.

4 - Reagan - Brought back American standards and pride.

5 - FDR - I do not agree with everything he believed in, but he led America through the Depression and WW2. He left the US much stronger and balanced than when he entered office. I don't see how FDR can't be on this list.

---

Laughably untrue.

He is probably our worst. No other USA president shredded the Constitution or killed so many Americans (600,000)

Hitler and Hideki Tojo did not kill as many (400,000 death in WWII)

All with the worst Constitutional justification.


[ Abraham Lincoln's Presidential record was notable for his despotic use of power and his blatant disregard for the Constitution. Lincoln ordered thousands of arrests, kept political enemies in prison without bringing charges against them, refused these hapless men their right to trial by a jury of their peers, and ignored orders from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to release them. In his first few months in office he made the most direct violations of the Constitution in the Nation's history. He increased the size of the Regular Army without Congressional approval, spent money without Congressional authorization, suspended the writ of habeas corpus without authority and generally acted as if he had never heard of the other two branches of the government.] ~ Michael Hutcheson

"Mr. Lincoln is quite a genuine Representative of American prejudiced and negro hatred and far more concerned for the preservation of slavery…showing all his inconsistencies, his pride of race and blood, his contempt for Negros and his constant hypocrisy… Mr. Lincoln takes care in urging his colonization scheme to furnish a weapon to all the ignorant and base." -Frederick Douglas, Taken from The Life and Writings of Frederick Douglas.

---

I figured would hear from you on that.

---

It's necessary to fight Lincoln worship and propaganda whenever you see it.

Average Americans don't even know about Polk....yet they think Lincoln fought a war to free slaves.

Its wild.

---

Most Americans don't know that Wilson entertained KKK leaders as honored guests at the White House.

They also don't know that Watergate, bad as it was, was provoked at least in part by Nixon's discovery that the Kennedy campaign spied on his office in 1960.

Most Americans also don't know that Grover Cleveland was once Sheriff of Erie County, and was also accused of rape (Maria Halpin).

---

The first motion pictures showed in the White House was under Wilson & it was Birth of a Nation which glorified the Klan. He was a viscous racist among many other sins.

---

Woodrow Wilson dragged an unwilling US into the slaughter fields of WW1.

In his haste to ship hundreds of thousands of young U.S. soldiers to France; Wilson actively censored information about the Spanish Influenza epidemic.

Crammed full of soldiers, the troopships became the perfect breeding ground for the virus. Thousands died .

---

So US should have stayed out of WW1? WW2?

---

The US should have definitely stayed out of WW1.

Within 5 years of 'victory' many Americans felt they had been hoodwinked by Great Britain into entering a conflict in which the US had no stake.

WW2 is more complicated. Hitler needed to be destroyed, no issue there.
However Japan certainly felt they had reasons for their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.