Trickle down does not work

5,413 Views | 54 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by 30aBear
Waco1947
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Economics 101: The Poverty Rate

If you give $500 a month to a rich man, he will put it in his pocket. Eventually, he may invest it in the stock market. If a broker is involved in this transaction, that broker may get a fee. It is only that small portion of the money that may make its way into the overall economy.

If you give $500 a month to a poor family with children,, they will immediately put it into the overall economy. They will buy clothes for the kids, food, books, etc. They may get tutoring for the kids or pay for child care so that both spouses can work. Other Americans and the economy as a whole will benefit.

This option of whether we (the government) should give to the rich or give to the poor has been a bone of contention between conservatives and progressives for decades. The conservatives champion Trickle Down economics by giving the rich tax breaks. You can be the judge yourself of whether that has worked. The progressives kept insisting that giving money directly to the poor will actually be better for the economy as a whole. The progressives' theory has never been tested ... until recently.

The American Rescue Plan enacted by the Biden Administration during the Pandemic, changed the way that the Child Tax Credit is provided to families with children. Under this plan, actual payments (not just a credit at income tax filing) were made to families with children. The payments were up to $300 per month per child and families who made too little income to even pay income tax were able to get the credit for the first time. That is, the families who needed the credit the most were now able to get it. The Child Poverty Rate was cut in half, down to 5.2%. Then, in 2022, the program ended due to the refusal of congressional Republicans aided by Joe Manchin (a Democrat in name only) to renew it. The poverty rate more than doubled to 12.4%.. That's more than 5 million children who briefly enjoyed a middle class life but are now thrust back into poverty. Their families will no longer positively contribute to the economy.

I don't want to tug on your heart strings too much, because I want you to think about yourself. Giving money to the rich through tax cuts or other programs does not improve the economy. We now know that giving money to the poor does. It gets people off of food stamps, welfare and Medicaid while increasing the number of Americans who can pay their fair share.
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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Teach a man to fish, he will become a Republican. Give a man somebody else's fish because he is too lazy to fish, he becomes a Democrat. Plain and simple.
"Stand with anyone when he is right; Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." - Abraham Lincoln
RD2WINAGNBEAR86
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https://www.npr.org/2023/09/12/1198923453/child-poverty-child-tax-credi-pandemic-aid-census-data

Also, child poverty has more than doubled from a historic low of 5.2 percent to over 12.4 percent under Joe Biden's watch. You can spin that any way you want. (Article is from that extremely conservative NPR).
"Stand with anyone when he is right; Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong." - Abraham Lincoln
muddybrazos
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People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
ron.reagan
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muddybrazos said:

People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
I don't agree with the housing part as I actually collect less rent than I did several years ago.
Forest Bueller_bf
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This sounds good, but right off the bat 5.2% sounds too low. I grew up in a high poverty area, and nothing overall changed in 2021. If there was a difference, it probably came from the checks the Government cut us during the Covid outbreak and the free money they paid folks to stay at home. Seems like the more children you had the more you received. I know I recieved multiple direct deposits of over $2000 and it was nice to get the child tax credit upfront, but the Covid checks more than the tax credit upfront seems to have helped significantly more.

There was simply no way the Government was going to keep cutting Covid checks, and those checks are very likely are a major cause of the Inflation mess, that has caused a 5% increase in the Federal Reserve Interest Rate. That influx of printing money with no production behind it, has put us in the mess we are in now.

Talk to an old person on a real fixed income, our current economic mess has hit them like an avalanche and they are barely getting by because of it. The cost of the things they need have skyrocketed.

That is the real price of injecting money into the economy with no labor or producution behind it. Runaway inflation and suffering and just getting by, for many millions of people, that previously had been fine.
Quote:



The national poverty rate was 12.8% in 2021, but was significantly different for the nation's oldest and youngest populations, according to a new Census Bureau report released today.

The child poverty rate (for people under age 18) was 16.9% in 2021, 4.2 percentage points higher than the national rate, while poverty for those ages 65 and over was 10.3%, 2.5 percentage points lower than the national rate.

The American Community Survey (ACS) 1-year estimates provide data for a number of demographic, social and economic indicators, including poverty. The estimates are used by planners, policymakers and community stakeholders to evaluate trends and make comparisons across demographic groups.

Utah had the lowest child poverty rate at 8.1%
Again, yes I saw the 5.2% report as well, but these new numbers were released in late 2022 so I doubt they are inaccurate since they have the advantage of correction and retrospect.
muddybrazos
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ron.reagan said:

muddybrazos said:

People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
I don't agree with the housing part as I actually collect less rent than I did several years ago.
Im just going off my own house value. I bought it 2017 and its now a 2x.
Doc Holliday
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Waco1947 said:

I don't want to tug on your heart strings too much, because I want you to think about yourself. Giving money to the rich through tax cuts or other programs does not improve the economy. We now know that giving money to the poor does. It gets people off of food stamps, welfare and Medicaid while increasing the number of Americans who can pay their fair share.
Giving money to the rich through tax cuts?! You really mean allowing the rich to keep more of their own money.

Why don't you point the finger at government spending? They waste hundreds of billions on sh it we don't need.

You could free up that money to help the poor instead of asking the middle class, upper class and corporations to fork over even more money. Especially when higher taxes simply means corporations will offset it by raising the price of their goods/services.

You really have an elementary view of economics. About as complex as a 5th grader understands it. You view the economy as if it's a static math problem instead of realizing that increased taxes changes the behavior of the economy. You can't tweak one aspect and expect the rest of the formula to be the same: if you tweak a number it changes the other numbers in an economic formula.
Jack Bauer
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Only a liberal would think a tax cut is the government "giving money" to people. Sheesh.

I don't want to "tug on your heart strings" but too often poor people make bad decisions and remain poor


Audits: Millions of dollars in Katrina aid wasted

  • The $2,000 debit cards issued to hurricane evacuees for emergency supplies were often used for purchases unrelated to disaster aid, including: adult entertainment, gambling, a $450 tattoo, a .45-caliber handgun for $1,300 and a diamond engagement ring for $1,100.
Guy Noir
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The flaw in your logic, Waco, is that if the Rich men invest the money it improves the economy and improves the overall financial opportunities for all people. That is how the trickle down theory works.

To re-phrase an old adage: If you give a person $500 he/she can feed himself for a few days, but if you give him/her opportunity then he/she can feed himself/herself for a lifetime.
muddybrazos
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If Waco47 were to give me $500 i promise to spend it helping single mothers at a local strip club.
Mothra
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Waco1947 said:

Economics 101: The Poverty Rate

If you give $500 a month to a rich man, he will put it in his pocket. Eventually, he may invest it in the stock market. If a broker is involved in this transaction, that broker may get a fee. It is only that small portion of the money that may make its way into the overall economy.

If you give $500 a month to a poor family with children,, they will immediately put it into the overall economy. They will buy clothes for the kids, food, books, etc. They may get tutoring for the kids or pay for child care so that both spouses can work. Other Americans and the economy as a whole will benefit.

This option of whether we (the government) should give to the rich or give to the poor has been a bone of contention between conservatives and progressives for decades. The conservatives champion Trickle Down economics by giving the rich tax breaks. You can be the judge yourself of whether that has worked. The progressives kept insisting that giving money directly to the poor will actually be better for the economy as a whole. The progressives' theory has never been tested ... until recently.

The American Rescue Plan enacted by the Biden Administration during the Pandemic, changed the way that the Child Tax Credit is provided to families with children. Under this plan, actual payments (not just a credit at income tax filing) were made to families with children. The payments were up to $300 per month per child and families who made too little income to even pay income tax were able to get the credit for the first time. That is, the families who needed the credit the most were now able to get it. The Child Poverty Rate was cut in half, down to 5.2%. Then, in 2022, the program ended due to the refusal of congressional Republicans aided by Joe Manchin (a Democrat in name only) to renew it. The poverty rate more than doubled to 12.4%.. That's more than 5 million children who briefly enjoyed a middle class life but are now thrust back into poverty. Their families will no longer positively contribute to the economy.

I don't want to tug on your heart strings too much, because I want you to think about yourself. Giving money to the rich through tax cuts or other programs does not improve the economy. We now know that giving money to the poor does. It gets people off of food stamps, welfare and Medicaid while increasing the number of Americans who can pay their fair share.
This is the most simplistic and ridiculous analysis I've ever seen.

Putting it back into the economy, as in spending it on frivolous things instead of investing and building wealth?

Ever wonder why there are so many liquor stores and check cashing stores in poor areas?
Forest Bueller_bf
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Jack Bauer said:

Only a liberal would think a tax cut is the government "giving money" to people. Sheesh.

I don't want to "tug on your heart strings" but too often poor people make bad decisions and remain poor


Audits: Millions of dollars in Katrina aid wasted

  • The $2,000 debit cards issued to hurricane evacuees for emergency supplies were often used for purchases unrelated to disaster aid, including: adult entertainment, gambling, a $450 tattoo, a .45-caliber handgun for $1,300 and a diamond engagement ring for $1,100.

In fairness the .45 Handgun could be an investment, the other things are just throwing away money.
Doc Holliday
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Mothra said:

Waco1947 said:

Economics 101: The Poverty Rate

If you give $500 a month to a rich man, he will put it in his pocket. Eventually, he may invest it in the stock market. If a broker is involved in this transaction, that broker may get a fee. It is only that small portion of the money that may make its way into the overall economy.

If you give $500 a month to a poor family with children,, they will immediately put it into the overall economy. They will buy clothes for the kids, food, books, etc. They may get tutoring for the kids or pay for child care so that both spouses can work. Other Americans and the economy as a whole will benefit.

This option of whether we (the government) should give to the rich or give to the poor has been a bone of contention between conservatives and progressives for decades. The conservatives champion Trickle Down economics by giving the rich tax breaks. You can be the judge yourself of whether that has worked. The progressives kept insisting that giving money directly to the poor will actually be better for the economy as a whole. The progressives' theory has never been tested ... until recently.

The American Rescue Plan enacted by the Biden Administration during the Pandemic, changed the way that the Child Tax Credit is provided to families with children. Under this plan, actual payments (not just a credit at income tax filing) were made to families with children. The payments were up to $300 per month per child and families who made too little income to even pay income tax were able to get the credit for the first time. That is, the families who needed the credit the most were now able to get it. The Child Poverty Rate was cut in half, down to 5.2%. Then, in 2022, the program ended due to the refusal of congressional Republicans aided by Joe Manchin (a Democrat in name only) to renew it. The poverty rate more than doubled to 12.4%.. That's more than 5 million children who briefly enjoyed a middle class life but are now thrust back into poverty. Their families will no longer positively contribute to the economy.

I don't want to tug on your heart strings too much, because I want you to think about yourself. Giving money to the rich through tax cuts or other programs does not improve the economy. We now know that giving money to the poor does. It gets people off of food stamps, welfare and Medicaid while increasing the number of Americans who can pay their fair share.
This is the most simplistic and ridiculous analysis I've ever seen.

Putting it back into the economy, as in spending it on frivolous things instead of investing and building wealth?

Ever wonder why there are so many liquor stores and check cashing stores in poor areas?
His "analysis" is what tens of millions of lukewarm IQ leftoids believe.

They're modern Bolsheviks.
Southtxbear
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Trickle down economics isn't perfect, but it is the best system we have in the world today.
GrowlTowel
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So the trillions spent on combatting poverty has or has not lowered the poverty rate?
Porteroso
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Depends on what you are wanting to trickle down. If it's water, it will absolutely trickle down. If it is a brick, it might not. Guess what, we have politicians throwing up bricks left and right. Both parties throw money at the rich. Obama's stimulus indirectly helped the economy, but directly lined the coffers of the rich. Much like the economy under Republicans often does well, so everyone finds access to jobs and a healthy economy.

Of course there are always more efficient ways to spend citizens' money but who are we kidding. The whole "trickle down economics works/doesn't work" is pure partisan hackery. Give one guy a million, he pays people better, expands, hires more employees. Give another guy the same million, he buys a boat. Also employs people, but helps fewer, and has a shorter effect.
KaiBear
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Waco1947 said:

Economics 101: The Poverty Rate

If you give $500 a month to a rich man, he will put it in his pocket. Eventually, he may invest it in the stock market. If a broker is involved in this transaction, that broker may get a fee. It is only that small portion of the money that may make its way into the overall economy.

If you give $500 a month to a poor family with children,, they will immediately put it into the overall economy. They will buy clothes for the kids, food, books, etc. They may get tutoring for the kids or pay for child care so that both spouses can work. Other Americans and the economy as a whole will benefit.

This option of whether we (the government) should give to the rich or give to the poor has been a bone of contention between conservatives and progressives for decades. The conservatives champion Trickle Down economics by giving the rich tax breaks. You can be the judge yourself of whether that has worked. The progressives kept insisting that giving money directly to the poor will actually be better for the economy as a whole. The progressives' theory has never been tested ... until recently.

The American Rescue Plan enacted by the Biden Administration during the Pandemic, changed the way that the Child Tax Credit is provided to families with children. Under this plan, actual payments (not just a credit at income tax filing) were made to families with children. The payments were up to $300 per month per child and families who made too little income to even pay income tax were able to get the credit for the first time. That is, the families who needed the credit the most were now able to get it. The Child Poverty Rate was cut in half, down to 5.2%. Then, in 2022, the program ended due to the refusal of congressional Republicans aided by Joe Manchin (a Democrat in name only) to renew it. The poverty rate more than doubled to 12.4%.. That's more than 5 million children who briefly enjoyed a middle class life but are now thrust back into poverty. Their families will no longer positively contribute to the economy.

I don't want to tug on your heart strings too much, because I want you to think about yourself. Giving money to the rich through tax cuts or other programs does not improve the economy. We now know that giving money to the poor does. It gets people off of food stamps, welfare and Medicaid while increasing the number of Americans who can pay their fair share.
Would be nice if you actually provided $ 200,000 to $ 300,000 into our federal budget instead of just mouthing off.

Even just one year

But you won't and never will.

Far easier for you merely to type.
ATL Bear
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It's all trickle down. If you want to see an even worse picture than the simplistic example in the OP, give the "Rich man's" $500 to the government under the guise of helping the poor, and see what trickles out at the other end.

The people and markets are the most effective method for trickling.
4th and Inches
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ron.reagan said:

muddybrazos said:

People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
I don't agree with the housing part as I actually collect less rent than I did several years ago.
we collect more gross rents but have less net now..

If your rents are market value, you should have seen a nice increase in gross rental income depending on your area.

Rents in my area have gone up 2/3 to doubled in the last 3 years. Good if you already own and are collecting, not as good if your buying and have huge PITI expenses
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Realitybites
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Forest Bueller_bf said:


In fairness the .45 Handgun could be an investment, the other things are just throwing away money.

The ring could also be an investment, if it takes a woman out of the workplace and 2-3 kids out of the public school system. If she turns around and files for divorce because reasons, it could be a bad investment.
Whiskey Pete
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Waco1947 said:

Economics 101: The Poverty Rate

If you give $500 a month to a rich man, he will put it in his pocket. Eventually, he may invest it in the stock market. If a broker is involved in this transaction, that broker may get a fee. It is only that small portion of the money that may make its way into the overall economy.

If you give $500 a month to a poor family with children,, they will immediately put it into the overall economy. They will buy clothes for the kids, food, books, etc. They may get tutoring for the kids or pay for child care so that both spouses can work. Other Americans and the economy as a whole will benefit.

This option of whether we (the government) should give to the rich or give to the poor has been a bone of contention between conservatives and progressives for decades. The conservatives champion Trickle Down economics by giving the rich tax breaks. You can be the judge yourself of whether that has worked. The progressives kept insisting that giving money directly to the poor will actually be better for the economy as a whole. The progressives' theory has never been tested ... until recently.

The American Rescue Plan enacted by the Biden Administration during the Pandemic, changed the way that the Child Tax Credit is provided to families with children. Under this plan, actual payments (not just a credit at income tax filing) were made to families with children. The payments were up to $300 per month per child and families who made too little income to even pay income tax were able to get the credit for the first time. That is, the families who needed the credit the most were now able to get it. The Child Poverty Rate was cut in half, down to 5.2%. Then, in 2022, the program ended due to the refusal of congressional Republicans aided by Joe Manchin (a Democrat in name only) to renew it. The poverty rate more than doubled to 12.4%.. That's more than 5 million children who briefly enjoyed a middle class life but are now thrust back into poverty. Their families will no longer positively contribute to the economy.

I don't want to tug on your heart strings too much, because I want you to think about yourself. Giving money to the rich through tax cuts or other programs does not improve the economy. We now know that giving money to the poor does. It gets people off of food stamps, welfare and Medicaid while increasing the number of Americans who can pay their fair share.
The rich guy will put the $500 in his pocket until he needs to pay for his yard care, or give it to the A/C tech when they come out to fix it or to the plumber when their toilet is clogged or to the mechanic when he needs to the oil changed in his Ferrari or to the dry local dry cleaner when he gets his $2,000 suit dry cleaned or to Joe Biden when he needs some political favors.

If it's the latter, then half of that will go to Hunter who will help fund the family of the local crack dealer.

Harrison Bergeron
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Child rapist racist proves she does't understand economics ... this warrants its own thread?
Waco1947
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These working class people are "fishing " but struggle
They childcare so they can work
They need healthcare, so they can still stay healthy in order to work
Theyneed a good public transportation, for they can get to their jobs.
They need good public education so they can get a job
They need good vocational training so they can get a job.
Are in short, as Habitat for Humanity says, cl" we offer a hand up, not a hand out"

4th and Inches
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Waco1947 said:

These working class people are "fishing " but struggle
They childcare so they can work
They need healthcare, so they can still stay healthy in order to work
Theyneed a good public transportation, for they can get to their jobs.
They need good public education so they can get a job
They need good vocational training so they can get a job.
Are in short, as Habitat for Humanity says, cl" we offer a hand up, not a hand out"


Habitat makes you work for it on others homes as well as the home you are getting. Great program!

People need to be educated to not have kids at 13-16 years old.

People need to be educated to go to church more and social media less.

People need to volunteer in their community creating additional resources for those in need. This is not a federal government problem, this is a local community coming together solution.
“The Internet is just a world passing around notes in a classroom.”

Jon Stewart
Jack Bauer
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Waco1947 said:

These working class people are "fishing " but struggle
They childcare so they can work
They need healthcare, so they can still stay healthy in order to work
Theyneed a good public transportation, for they can get to their jobs.
They need good public education so they can get a job
They need good vocational training so they can get a job.
Are in short, as Habitat for Humanity says, cl" we offer a hand up, not a hand out"



Waco47 -What if you could avoid poverty and join the middle class by following just THREE simple guidelines. Isn't America great?!!!


Quote:

"Young people can virtually assure that they and their families will avoid poverty if they follow three elementary rules for success

1) complete at least a high school education,
2) work full time,
3) wait until age 21 and get married before having a baby.

The statement is powerful because it is based on Census Bureau data. Mr. Haskins and Ms. Sawhill crunched the data and learned that "people who followed all three of these rules had only a 2 percent chance of being in poverty and a 72 percent chance of joining the middle class "
J.R.
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muddybrazos said:

People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
half? really. Nah
muddybrazos
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J.R. said:

muddybrazos said:

People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
half? really. Nah
Pretty close. Gas is just about double, My vehicle that I bought for 47.5k in 2020 is around 75-80k for the same vehicle now and my house has doubled. Going out to restaurants has definitely close to doubled. Hotel prices seem to have doubled. Maybe I just pay closer attention to things since i'm not a super rich oil millionaire like you.
GrowlTowel
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muddybrazos said:

J.R. said:

muddybrazos said:

People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
half? really. Nah
Pretty close. Gas is just about double, My vehicle that I bought for 47.5k in 2020 is around 75-80k for the same vehicle now and my house has doubled. Going out to restaurants has definitely close to doubled. Hotel prices seem to have doubled. Maybe I just pay closer attention to things since i'm not a super rich oil millionaire like you.
In fairness, he does own a bank so he "kinda knows."
Forest Bueller_bf
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J.R. said:

muddybrazos said:

People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
half? really. Nah
Yea I would think more like 30% to 40% food/gas. Not in the car market, but it is crazy.
KaiBear
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Waco1947 said:

These working class people are "fishing " but struggle
They childcare so they can work
They need healthcare, so they can still stay healthy in order to work
Theyneed a good public transportation, for they can get to their jobs.
They need good public education so they can get a job
They need good vocational training so they can get a job.
Are in short, as Habitat for Humanity says, cl" we offer a hand up, not a hand out"




So how much are you willing to pay in taxes each year to make all your comments a reality ?

$ 200,000

$ 300,000

NOTHING
Fre3dombear
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Waco1947 said:

Economics 101: The Poverty Rate

If you give $500 a month to a rich man, he will put it in his pocket. Eventually, he may invest it in the stock market. If a broker is involved in this transaction, that broker may get a fee. It is only that small portion of the money that may make its way into the overall economy.

If you give $500 a month to a poor family with children,, they will immediately put it into the overall economy. They will buy clothes for the kids, food, books, etc. They may get tutoring for the kids or pay for child care so that both spouses can work. Other Americans and the economy as a whole will benefit.

This option of whether we (the government) should give to the rich or give to the poor has been a bone of contention between conservatives and progressives for decades. The conservatives champion Trickle Down economics by giving the rich tax breaks. You can be the judge yourself of whether that has worked. The progressives kept insisting that giving money directly to the poor will actually be better for the economy as a whole. The progressives' theory has never been tested ... until recently.

The American Rescue Plan enacted by the Biden Administration during the Pandemic, changed the way that the Child Tax Credit is provided to families with children. Under this plan, actual payments (not just a credit at income tax filing) were made to families with children. The payments were up to $300 per month per child and families who made too little income to even pay income tax were able to get the credit for the first time. That is, the families who needed the credit the most were now able to get it. The Child Poverty Rate was cut in half, down to 5.2%. Then, in 2022, the program ended due to the refusal of congressional Republicans aided by Joe Manchin (a Democrat in name only) to renew it. The poverty rate more than doubled to 12.4%.. That's more than 5 million children who briefly enjoyed a middle class life but are now thrust back into poverty. Their families will no longer positively contribute to the economy.

I don't want to tug on your heart strings too much, because I want you to think about yourself. Giving money to the rich through tax cuts or other programs does not improve the economy. We now know that giving money to the poor does. It gets people off of food stamps, welfare and Medicaid while increasing the number of Americans who can pay their fair share.


Victimhood works

That's Democrat america
Waco1947
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Forest Bueller_bf said:

J.R. said:

muddybrazos said:

People actually had more money pre Biden. Gas/energy was half, groceries were half, cars were half, housing half etc.
half? really. Nah
Yea I would think more like 30% to 40% food/gas. Not in the car market, but it is crazy.
Probably
Waco1947
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Still how has trickle down worked? What's the argument for it?
Mothra
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What I want to know is who is the buffoon who gave the OP a blue star?

Do we really have another poster that is as ignorant as 47 on these boards? I didn't think that was possible.
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