It was a difficult task given my orthodox and fundamentalist background which taught God is all powerful in a physics way but I came to believe in an all powerful God of love as in I John "God is love." It's sounds foolish to the orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical but to those of my faith it is the power of the cross. In the weakness of the cross is the power of God for love and new life in Christ. Surely I sound foolish to my more conservative brothers and sisters but God's saving power in the weakness of the cross is my my faith in an all powerful God of love (I Corinthians 13).

There is not too much to say, you have come to believe that God has no control over the physical, that which we see, that which has been made, the weather, etc.

Quote:

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"The Sacred God of my faith is my final hope. Faith, hope, love abide in this physical Cosmology but the greatest of these is love."

In your responses live out that love in good faith dialogue and discussion.

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Quote:

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Jesus Calms the Storm

35 That day when evening came, he said to his disciples, "Let us go over to the other side." 36 Leaving the crowd behind, they took him along, just as he was, in the boat. There were also other boats with him. 37 A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. 38 Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?"

39 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.

40 He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"

41 They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"

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You say you are living out love in good faith dialog, but the fact remains you are trying to convince people what the Bible says is not true. If you can convince people of that for large portions of scripture, then no part of scripture is reliable.

I do not see this as living out love in good faith, but trying to lead people away what is clearly written in the Bible.

So here is my good faith response. Jesus as described in scripture, is God Incarnate. As such he has power over all. He is God.

As we can obviously see God does not always intervene in the natural as we wish he would, as it is written....Psalms 135:6 "The LORD does whatever pleases him throughout all heaven and earth, and on the seas and in their depths."

Not understanding why God does not intervene as we wish often, does not mean He doesn't have the power to intervene. I believe many people have lost a misguided faith or never came to that faith, because God did not do as they wanted him to do.

The fact is we do not control God, that he doesn't do our bidding as we often wish, doesn't mean He couldn't if he wished. Many people only come to faith through endured hardship. If God always took that away, many would never turn to Him.

But, to say you don't believe that God can control the natural realm if He choses, is to ignore, no it is to reject clear Bible teaching. Once you allow yourself to do such, you are putting yourself in the seat reserved for God.

Waco1947 said:

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It was a difficult task given my orthodox and fundamentalist background which taught God is all powerful in a physics way but I came to believe in an all powerful God of love as in I John "God is love." It's sounds foolish to the orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical but to those of my faith it is the power of the cross. In the weakness of the cross is the power of God for love and new life in Christ. Surely I sound foolish to my more conservative brothers and sisters but God's saving power in the weakness of the cross is my my faith in an all powerful God of love (I Corinthians 13).

---

How did Christ get to the cross if God can't intervene in the physical world?

Waco1947 said:

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Robert Wilson said:

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It's pretty normal for Christians to over time have trouble believing that God either can or just in fact does exercise any dominion in the physical world (at least currently, then the question is maybe ever). E.g. "Where was God in the tsunami?" I think most thinking Christians wrestle with that. There are all kinds of interesting answers/approaches, but I don't think that struggling with that breaks you from relationship with God. So, while I don't endorse that approach (I think God can exercise dominion on earth and occasionally does), I don't think the discussion is out of bounds. I have to admit my reasons for believing so are faith-based, but the reasons for thinking the opposite are also just assumptions.

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Thank you for a reasonable discussion . " Believing the opposite is just assumptions."
My premises are based in knowledge, fact, proof or reality.with regards to the World actually live in and how as I faithful Christian I move, act, believe, and have my being.
To say, God, occasionally intervenes is the rub for secular people, wishing to be and hoping to be Christians.

---

This isn't really true either.

Not only was Jesus in view and the agent and the goal of all creation, but he also "holds all things together." Jesus "upholds the universe by the word of his power" (Hebrews 1:3). Not only is his involvement in creation exhaustive, but also in every moment of every day.

Jesus continually is holding thie Universe together. His intervention is why we have a planet created specifically for us, to be able to live. God continually intervenes for us. Even with that bad things happen, disasters occur, people lose their lives, and God doesn't stop it from happening. Yet He is all and over all.

Mothra said:

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Waco1947 said:

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JXL said:

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Waco1947 said:

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D. C. Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Reflections on Richard Rohr's Sacred Cosmology:
Sacred Cosmology and Physical Cosmology

1. "I live in both cosmologies as you and all of us do. It's not a dualism where I switch back and forth. There is a basic unity. As I live in the physical cosmology my heart and soul and interior life, live in a Sacred Cosmology of love and grace and forgiveness and justice.

2. The problem for us secular (physical Cosmology) /sacred Christians is blending the two as if the sacred acts on the physical forces of our shared Cosmology.

3. But in reality God is powerless over the physical cosmology. So my faith is that God is active in love, grace, etc. in the Sacred Cosmology.

4. We have come to believe that physical forces - weather, wind, rain, earthquakes, etc. are beyond ours and God's control.

5. And if they are beyond our control then how do I "respond" as a Christian with a sacred Cosmology? It was a difficult task given my orthodox and fundamentalist background which taught God is all powerful in a physics way but I came to believe in an all powerful God of love as in I John "God is love." It's sounds foolish to the orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical but to those of my faith it is the power of the cross. In the weakness of the cross is the power of God for love and new life in Christ. Surely I sound foolish to my more conservative brothers and sisters but God's saving power in the weakness of the cross is my my faith in an all powerful God of love (I Corinthians 1).

6. My God's love and presence go with me through this physical Cosmology. The cross reassures me. My task is to hold fast in faith to this God. That faith is wavering but God forgives and I launch myself again into this world. I believe my Sacred Cosmology wins the day for love, grace, etc. The Sacred God of my faith is my final hope. Faith, hope, love abide in this physical Cosmology but the greatest of these is love."

This statement is as if I wrote. It captures my beliefs and faith.
Don't tear down Rohr with silliness.
Respond to the statement as is.
Let's dialog.
The haters will appear soon and try to crash dialogue. Rise above their silliness and ad hominen attacks.

"The Sacred God of my faith is my final hope. Faith, hope, love abide in this physical Cosmology but the greatest of these is love."
In your responses live out that love in good faith dialogue and discussion.

---

Secular: denoting attitudes, activities or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. Whatever more might be required to be classified as a "Christian," attitudes and activities with a religious or spiritual basis are required. One cannot be a "secular Christian" any more than one can keep Kosher dietary laws while dining on a pulled pork sandwich.

In reality, God can, and does, intervene in the physical world. He is all powerful in all realms. The fact that he has "poured out his spirit on all flesh" does not negate that fact that God also "became flesh and dwelt among us." The fact that "God is love" does not negate that fact that "even the winds and waves obey him." There is no tension between these two.

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In reality, God can, and does, intervene in the physical world. He is all powerful in all realms. An assertion without proof

---

Did the Jesus of the Bible exist? Of course, he is historical. Although historical the writings about Jesus by Mt, Mk, Lk, and Jn are their interpretations of his life. Each of them stood at distance from Jesus and only heard stories or saw some writings but the key part is that the writers shaped their gospels around a theological perspective in the churches in which they were writing. They are marvelous narrative theologians

If so, then you have proof. If not, then what's the point? Not getting what your saving.

---

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47, I am going to try and reset our conversations, because I am generally interested in this perspective.

If you're willing to answer, I would love to know your perspective on this: If God doesn't intervene in the physical world, and indeed does not even have the capacity to intervene in the physical world, and if Christ is God, then how was Christ (God who became man) born into the physical world? Help me understand what appears to me to be two contradictory set of beliefs.

---

I guess you haven't been following the convo in this thread. I don't blame you. But this has been essentially my line of questioning with him for the past 50 or so posts. Let me save you the trouble. His "answers", if he's not dodging them, are vague, strange, nonsensical, and don't really answer the question, as usual. He obviously knows he's trapped in a contradiction and bad logic, and he doesn't know how to get out except to resort to that.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Mothra said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

JXL said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

D. C. Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Reflections on Richard Rohr's Sacred Cosmology:
Sacred Cosmology and Physical Cosmology

1. "I live in both cosmologies as you and all of us do. It's not a dualism where I switch back and forth. There is a basic unity. As I live in the physical cosmology my heart and soul and interior life, live in a Sacred Cosmology of love and grace and forgiveness and justice.

2. The problem for us secular (physical Cosmology) /sacred Christians is blending the two as if the sacred acts on the physical forces of our shared Cosmology.

3. But in reality God is powerless over the physical cosmology. So my faith is that God is active in love, grace, etc. in the Sacred Cosmology.

4. We have come to believe that physical forces - weather, wind, rain, earthquakes, etc. are beyond ours and God's control.

5. And if they are beyond our control then how do I "respond" as a Christian with a sacred Cosmology? It was a difficult task given my orthodox and fundamentalist background which taught God is all powerful in a physics way but I came to believe in an all powerful God of love as in I John "God is love." It's sounds foolish to the orthodox/fundamentalist/evangelical but to those of my faith it is the power of the cross. In the weakness of the cross is the power of God for love and new life in Christ. Surely I sound foolish to my more conservative brothers and sisters but God's saving power in the weakness of the cross is my my faith in an all powerful God of love (I Corinthians 1).

6. My God's love and presence go with me through this physical Cosmology. The cross reassures me. My task is to hold fast in faith to this God. That faith is wavering but God forgives and I launch myself again into this world. I believe my Sacred Cosmology wins the day for love, grace, etc. The Sacred God of my faith is my final hope. Faith, hope, love abide in this physical Cosmology but the greatest of these is love."

This statement is as if I wrote. It captures my beliefs and faith.
Don't tear down Rohr with silliness.
Respond to the statement as is.
Let's dialog.
The haters will appear soon and try to crash dialogue. Rise above their silliness and ad hominen attacks.

"The Sacred God of my faith is my final hope. Faith, hope, love abide in this physical Cosmology but the greatest of these is love."
In your responses live out that love in good faith dialogue and discussion.

---

Secular: denoting attitudes, activities or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. Whatever more might be required to be classified as a "Christian," attitudes and activities with a religious or spiritual basis are required. One cannot be a "secular Christian" any more than one can keep Kosher dietary laws while dining on a pulled pork sandwich.

In reality, God can, and does, intervene in the physical world. He is all powerful in all realms. The fact that he has "poured out his spirit on all flesh" does not negate that fact that God also "became flesh and dwelt among us." The fact that "God is love" does not negate that fact that "even the winds and waves obey him." There is no tension between these two.

---

In reality, God can, and does, intervene in the physical world. He is all powerful in all realms. An assertion without proof

---

Did the Jesus of the Bible exist? Of course, he is historical. Although historical the writings about Jesus by Mt, Mk, Lk, and Jn are their interpretations of his life. Each of them stood at distance from Jesus and only heard stories or saw some writings but the key part is that the writers shaped their gospels around a theological perspective in the churches in which they were writing. They are marvelous narrative theologians

If so, then you have proof. If not, then what's the point? Not getting what your saving.

---

---

47, I am going to try and reset our conversations, because I am generally interested in this perspective.

If you're willing to answer, I would love to know your perspective on this: If God doesn't intervene in the physical world, and indeed does not even have the capacity to intervene in the physical world, and if Christ is God, then how was Christ (God who became man) born into the physical world? Help me understand what appears to me to be two contradictory set of beliefs.

---

I guess you haven't been following the convo in this thread. I don't blame you. But this has been essentially my line of questioning with him for the past 50 or so posts. Let me save you the trouble. His "answers", if he's not dodging them, are vague, strange, nonsensical, and don't really answer the question, as usual. He obviously knows he's trapped in a contradiction and bad logic, and he doesn't know how to get out except to resort to that.

---

I admittedly haven't read all posts on this thread. But it remains an interesting question. I would like to see how he answers it, if at all.

Waco1947 said:

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Proud 1992 Alum said:

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Waco1947,

I am curious.

1. Do you believe that God created the universe?
2. Do you believe the various miracles in the Bible? For example, parting the waters/exodus from Egypt; Jesus healing people; the physical resurrection of Jesus?
3. Do you believe in a Heaven and Hell?

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First , dialogue about my original post.Or Start with your assumptions and promises no questions, unless you have questions specific specifically do what I wrote.

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You want dialogue, yet you won't answer direct questions.

So in summary you don't really want dialogue, you want one sided dictation.

Forest Bueller said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Proud 1992 Alum said:

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Waco1947,

I am curious.

1. Do you believe that God created the universe?
2. Do you believe the various miracles in the Bible? For example, parting the waters/exodus from Egypt; Jesus healing people; the physical resurrection of Jesus?
3. Do you believe in a Heaven and Hell?

---

First , dialogue about my original post.Or Start with your assumptions and promises no questions, unless you have questions specific specifically do what I wrote.

---

You want dialogue, yet you won't answer direct questions.

So in summary you don't really want dialogue, you want one sided dictation.

---

You just described at least three people in these forums.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Forest Bueller said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Proud 1992 Alum said:

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Waco1947,

I am curious.

1. Do you believe that God created the universe?
2. Do you believe the various miracles in the Bible? For example, parting the waters/exodus from Egypt; Jesus healing people; the physical resurrection of Jesus?
3. Do you believe in a Heaven and Hell?

---

First , dialogue about my original post.Or Start with your assumptions and promises no questions, unless you have questions specific specifically do what I wrote.

---

You want dialogue, yet you won't answer direct questions.

So in summary you don't really want dialogue, you want one sided dictation.

---

You just described at least three people in these forums.

---

Ironically, one of those is BTD himself.

Oldbear83 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Forest Bueller said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Proud 1992 Alum said:

---

Waco1947,

I am curious.

1. Do you believe that God created the universe?
2. Do you believe the various miracles in the Bible? For example, parting the waters/exodus from Egypt; Jesus healing people; the physical resurrection of Jesus?
3. Do you believe in a Heaven and Hell?

---

First , dialogue about my original post.Or Start with your assumptions and promises no questions, unless you have questions specific specifically do what I wrote.

---

You want dialogue, yet you won't answer direct questions.

So in summary you don't really want dialogue, you want one sided dictation.

---

You just described at least three people in these forums.

---

Ironically, one of those is BTD himself.

---

The 1st string starting dodgeball player in sicem365 speaks!

I'm asking the questions that people are always dodging, like what you are doing right now at this very minute in the heaven forum.

When you ask someone a question, and that person doesn't directly answer it but rather asks a string of questions of their own, that first person isn't "dodging" your questions if he's trying (painstakingly and repeatedly, I might add) to get you to answer the question he asked first. Sorry, but your view is distorted.

You can prove me wrong right now and engage my questions that you've been avoiding in that thread. I'll be waiting.

BTD proves my point. Thanks, guy!

Oldbear83 said:

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BTD proves my point. Thanks, guy!

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How exactly does that prove your point? You just don't make sense so many times.

Meanwhile, you STILL have not engaged my questions, which proves my point!