Campus Protests

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ShooterTX
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boognish_bear said:




They should have burned it, after soaking it in pigs blood.

ShooterTX
sombear
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cowboycwr said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

Redbrickbear said:


Of course it is a top priority.

If one group of citizens can be targeted like this with impunity, and
no retribution for blatant antisemitism, then any group of citizens
can be targeted in a similar way.



GOP leadership is weak,

They have been pretty strong on being against anti-semitism

The question is where were they during the anti-White pogroms during BLM?

Mitt Romney was out there marching in the street with the DC BLM

Has any top GOP leader been out marching in the street with the pro-Palestinian protestors? of course not


Rarely do I defend BLM for anything, but there were different kinds of BLM marches and protests. Yea, it's become a punch line, but fact is, a majority were peaceful and reasonable. There were, in fact, multiple marches where police forces joined. There were prayer sessions involving all kinds. If any of those would have been near me, I may well have attended. As for those that were violent/radical, there were plenty of conservative politicians and influencers calling it out and saying more should be done.
Based on the fact that the BLM marches were predicated on the lie that police are hunting down innocent black people NONE of the BLM marches were "reasonable."

Whether police always do the right thing or not, it is always reasonable to ask them to do the right thing.

The vast majority of BLM protesters were asking that police who kill innocent blacks be held accountable, and that they seek to treat everyone fairly.

It could be argued that in the past decade or 2 police themselves have become much more diverse, better representing the demographics of the U.S., and that for every mistreatment of a black American, there are probably 3 of a white American. However, the centuries before that created a narrative very different, and when such injustice has been perpetrated for so long, it just takes more than 1 or 2 decades of fair policecwork to change the societal narrative.

The peaceful BLM protests were exactly reasonable, and anyone making use of their right to peacefully protest, I applaud, even if I disagree with the cause.
I'm glad that you also agree that the blm riots were about feelings and narrative rather than facts and reality.

Centuries of police brutality is a fact. Yes people care. I do think recent police brutality was vastly overstated by mainstream media, but I am glad that people protested this perception. If you thought it was real, you'd have to be a real monster to not support such protests.
Centuries?????

Police were not even a common thing until very recently (in terms of human history).


I'm about as pro-cop as anyone, and it drives some of my libertarian and black friends crazy. I moved hard that way after going on some police ride alongs with some black friends and doing more research. We all developed a healthy respect for the jobs cops have to do.

That said, it's foolish to deny the history of law enforcement abuse against blacks. It's not just police of recent history. Think about how the U.S. slave trade itself started and was administered and who was involved. Think about how slavery was enforced and the "justice system" in effect. Think about law enforcement in post slavery, Jim Crow south. Think about law enforcement's role in fighting (literally) the civil rights movement. And even late into the 20th Century, it will take you 2 minutes on google to find rampant systematic racial abuse among certain major police departments.

Again, thankfully, we are far beyond that. And we don't have to beat ourselves up for it. But it's wrong to deny it and wrong to say it's just "emotional" for blacks.
muddybrazos
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I'm starting to think that these protests are organized and paid for by commie Bolshevik or Zionist types who want to cause chaos so that congress will pass knee jerk anti semitism legislation. All of the protesters are just useful idiots. Plus its an election year so the usual people who fund this stuff are just running their gameplan. I'm sure false flag terror attack to attempt to whip up anti muslim sentiment is coming.
ShooterTX
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sombear said:

cowboycwr said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

Redbrickbear said:


Of course it is a top priority.

If one group of citizens can be targeted like this with impunity, and
no retribution for blatant antisemitism, then any group of citizens
can be targeted in a similar way.



GOP leadership is weak,

They have been pretty strong on being against anti-semitism

The question is where were they during the anti-White pogroms during BLM?

Mitt Romney was out there marching in the street with the DC BLM

Has any top GOP leader been out marching in the street with the pro-Palestinian protestors? of course not


Rarely do I defend BLM for anything, but there were different kinds of BLM marches and protests. Yea, it's become a punch line, but fact is, a majority were peaceful and reasonable. There were, in fact, multiple marches where police forces joined. There were prayer sessions involving all kinds. If any of those would have been near me, I may well have attended. As for those that were violent/radical, there were plenty of conservative politicians and influencers calling it out and saying more should be done.
Based on the fact that the BLM marches were predicated on the lie that police are hunting down innocent black people NONE of the BLM marches were "reasonable."

Whether police always do the right thing or not, it is always reasonable to ask them to do the right thing.

The vast majority of BLM protesters were asking that police who kill innocent blacks be held accountable, and that they seek to treat everyone fairly.

It could be argued that in the past decade or 2 police themselves have become much more diverse, better representing the demographics of the U.S., and that for every mistreatment of a black American, there are probably 3 of a white American. However, the centuries before that created a narrative very different, and when such injustice has been perpetrated for so long, it just takes more than 1 or 2 decades of fair policecwork to change the societal narrative.

The peaceful BLM protests were exactly reasonable, and anyone making use of their right to peacefully protest, I applaud, even if I disagree with the cause.
I'm glad that you also agree that the blm riots were about feelings and narrative rather than facts and reality.

Centuries of police brutality is a fact. Yes people care. I do think recent police brutality was vastly overstated by mainstream media, but I am glad that people protested this perception. If you thought it was real, you'd have to be a real monster to not support such protests.
Centuries?????

Police were not even a common thing until very recently (in terms of human history).


I'm about as pro-cop as anyone, and it drives some of my libertarian and black friends crazy. I moved hard that way after going on some police ride alongs with some black friends and doing more research. We all developed a healthy respect for the jobs cops have to do.

That said, it's foolish to deny the history of law enforcement abuse against blacks. It's not just police of recent history. Think about how the U.S. slave trade itself started and was administered and who was involved. Think about how slavery was enforced and the "justice system" in effect. Think about law enforcement in post slavery, Jim Crow south. Think about law enforcement's role in fighting (literally) the civil rights movement. And even late into the 20th Century, it will take you 2 minutes on google to find rampant systematic racial abuse among certain major police departments.

Again, thankfully, we are far beyond that. And we don't have to beat ourselves up for it. But it's wrong to deny it and wrong to say it's just "emotional" for blacks.
The vast majority of blacks, alive today, have never experienced police brutality... and yet the majority of them are very concerned about it and are looking intently for it.
I understand what you are saying here, but it is far beyond time for black people to get over police brutality. It isn't a reality in our world today. The obsession with it, is creating far more problems than actually exist.
ShooterTX
william
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cole shooter ........

https://kfyo.com/show/shooter-on-the-law/

- kkm

{ sipping coffee }

{ eating donut }

D!
POE.
Jack Bauer
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LGBTQ

1995: We want to be allowed to live our lives w/o interference.

2023: We need to bow to Allah and fight for Palestine

Jack Bauer
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UCLA leadership should be fired ASAP for allowing students to build a make shift CHAZ protest camp on campus

Forest Bueller_bf
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cowboycwr said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

Redbrickbear said:


Of course it is a top priority.

If one group of citizens can be targeted like this with impunity, and
no retribution for blatant antisemitism, then any group of citizens
can be targeted in a similar way.



GOP leadership is weak,

They have been pretty strong on being against anti-semitism

The question is where were they during the anti-White pogroms during BLM?

Mitt Romney was out there marching in the street with the DC BLM

Has any top GOP leader been out marching in the street with the pro-Palestinian protestors? of course not


Rarely do I defend BLM for anything, but there were different kinds of BLM marches and protests. Yea, it's become a punch line, but fact is, a majority were peaceful and reasonable. There were, in fact, multiple marches where police forces joined. There were prayer sessions involving all kinds. If any of those would have been near me, I may well have attended. As for those that were violent/radical, there were plenty of conservative politicians and influencers calling it out and saying more should be done.
Based on the fact that the BLM marches were predicated on the lie that police are hunting down innocent black people NONE of the BLM marches were "reasonable."

Whether police always do the right thing or not, it is always reasonable to ask them to do the right thing.

The vast majority of BLM protesters were asking that police who kill innocent blacks be held accountable, and that they seek to treat everyone fairly.

It could be argued that in the past decade or 2 police themselves have become much more diverse, better representing the demographics of the U.S., and that for every mistreatment of a black American, there are probably 3 of a white American. However, the centuries before that created a narrative very different, and when such injustice has been perpetrated for so long, it just takes more than 1 or 2 decades of fair policecwork to change the societal narrative.

The peaceful BLM protests were exactly reasonable, and anyone making use of their right to peacefully protest, I applaud, even if I disagree with the cause.
I'm glad that you also agree that the blm riots were about feelings and narrative rather than facts and reality.

Centuries of police brutality is a fact. Yes people care. I do think recent police brutality was vastly overstated by mainstream media, but I am glad that people protested this perception. If you thought it was real, you'd have to be a real monster to not support such protests.
Centuries?????

Police were not even a common thing until very recently (in terms of human history).
Heck, there were no police where I grew up. The closest were Larry Pamplin and Ben Kirk in Marlin Texas a good 12 miles away. The only time we ever saw them in Chilton was when they might show up on Friday night every once in a while during a football game.
Whiskey Pete
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cowboycwr said:

Jack Bauer said:


The fact that the majority of people in these protests are still wearing masks show all one needs to know about their thought process.
At this point it's probably to hide their face. Or it could be that the mask has become the new blanky.
Jack Bauer
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Look how much progress we have made!



Whiskey Pete
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ShooterTX said:

boognish_bear said:




They should have burned it, after soaking it in pigs blood.


Need to stomp on it first and shout death to Gaza.
Whiskey Pete
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muddybrazos said:

I'm starting to think that these protests are organized and paid for by commie Bolshevik or Zionist types who want to cause chaos so that congress will pass knee jerk anti semitism legislation. All of the protesters are just useful idiots. Plus its an election year so the usual people who fund this stuff are just running their gameplan. I'm sure false flag terror attack to attempt to whip up anti muslim sentiment is coming.
Sew chaos to expose America to more terrorist threats and in the name of security, suspend in-person voting?

Not saying it will happen. But not saying it couldn't.
Whiskey Pete
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ShooterTX said:

sombear said:

cowboycwr said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

Redbrickbear said:


Of course it is a top priority.

If one group of citizens can be targeted like this with impunity, and
no retribution for blatant antisemitism, then any group of citizens
can be targeted in a similar way.



GOP leadership is weak,

They have been pretty strong on being against anti-semitism

The question is where were they during the anti-White pogroms during BLM?

Mitt Romney was out there marching in the street with the DC BLM

Has any top GOP leader been out marching in the street with the pro-Palestinian protestors? of course not


Rarely do I defend BLM for anything, but there were different kinds of BLM marches and protests. Yea, it's become a punch line, but fact is, a majority were peaceful and reasonable. There were, in fact, multiple marches where police forces joined. There were prayer sessions involving all kinds. If any of those would have been near me, I may well have attended. As for those that were violent/radical, there were plenty of conservative politicians and influencers calling it out and saying more should be done.
Based on the fact that the BLM marches were predicated on the lie that police are hunting down innocent black people NONE of the BLM marches were "reasonable."

Whether police always do the right thing or not, it is always reasonable to ask them to do the right thing.

The vast majority of BLM protesters were asking that police who kill innocent blacks be held accountable, and that they seek to treat everyone fairly.

It could be argued that in the past decade or 2 police themselves have become much more diverse, better representing the demographics of the U.S., and that for every mistreatment of a black American, there are probably 3 of a white American. However, the centuries before that created a narrative very different, and when such injustice has been perpetrated for so long, it just takes more than 1 or 2 decades of fair policecwork to change the societal narrative.

The peaceful BLM protests were exactly reasonable, and anyone making use of their right to peacefully protest, I applaud, even if I disagree with the cause.
I'm glad that you also agree that the blm riots were about feelings and narrative rather than facts and reality.

Centuries of police brutality is a fact. Yes people care. I do think recent police brutality was vastly overstated by mainstream media, but I am glad that people protested this perception. If you thought it was real, you'd have to be a real monster to not support such protests.
Centuries?????

Police were not even a common thing until very recently (in terms of human history).


I'm about as pro-cop as anyone, and it drives some of my libertarian and black friends crazy. I moved hard that way after going on some police ride alongs with some black friends and doing more research. We all developed a healthy respect for the jobs cops have to do.

That said, it's foolish to deny the history of law enforcement abuse against blacks. It's not just police of recent history. Think about how the U.S. slave trade itself started and was administered and who was involved. Think about how slavery was enforced and the "justice system" in effect. Think about law enforcement in post slavery, Jim Crow south. Think about law enforcement's role in fighting (literally) the civil rights movement. And even late into the 20th Century, it will take you 2 minutes on google to find rampant systematic racial abuse among certain major police departments.

Again, thankfully, we are far beyond that. And we don't have to beat ourselves up for it. But it's wrong to deny it and wrong to say it's just "emotional" for blacks.
The vast majority of blacks, alive today, have never experienced police brutality... and yet the majority of them are very concerned about it and are looking intently for it.
I understand what you are saying here, but it is far beyond time for black people to get over police brutality. It isn't a reality in our world today. The obsession with it, is creating far more problems than actually exist.
Democrats need to create victims so they can keep getting elected
ShooterTX
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Jack Bauer said:

Look how much progress we have made!




These camps have NOTHING to do with Free Speech. They were illegal from the get go, and ALL of them should have been arrested & expelled immediately.
These people are promoting evil. They do not deserve a place in normal society... other than prison.
ShooterTX
Forest Bueller_bf
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Jack Bauer said:

LGBTQ

1995: We want to be allowed to live our lives w/o interference.

2023: We need to bow to Allah and fight for Palestine


An there it is. A primary goal of Islam is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth...and they are getting these wanna be dupes to support it.

Of course Israel is going to fight back. It is a shame Hamas as a terriorist organization uses citizens as human shields and place strategic miltiary operations such as the Palestinian military intelligence service in refugee camps. It is a shame bad things happen.

But, those eqivocating the State of Israel with Hamas and saying they are both the same thing, are morons.

There are those even worse, who actually believe Israel is worse than Hamas and Israel is "the" bad guy here.

Those individual are devoid of a perspective of history.

Do not be decieved, those that chant from the River to the Sea, and also proclaims this problem goes back to 1947, simply what to annilate Israel. It never ends, the Nazi's wanted to annilate Jews. Now these folks are taking up the torch.
ShooterTX
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Forest Bueller_bf said:

Jack Bauer said:

LGBTQ

1995: We want to be allowed to live our lives w/o interference.

2023: We need to bow to Allah and fight for Palestine


An there it is. A primary goal of Islam is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth...and they are getting these wanna be dupes to support it.

Of course Israel is going to fight back. It is a shame Hamas as a terriorist organization uses citizens as human shields and place strategic miltiary operations such as the Palestinian military intelligence service in refugee camps. It is a shame bad things happen.

But, those eqivocating the State of Israel with Hamas and saying they are both the same thing, are morons.

There are those even worse, who actually believe Israel is worse than Hamas and Israel is "the" bad guy here.

Those individual are devoid of a perspective of history.

Do not be decieved, those that chant from the River to the Sea, and also proclaims this problem goes back to 1947, simply what to annilate Israel. It never ends, the Nazi's wanted to annilate Jews. Now these folks are taking up the torch.
Bingo!

100% correct!
ShooterTX
Jack Bauer
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Waco1947
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I believe in protests. They are protected by the Constitution "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
However these protests are not peaceable and disturb the common life of other students.
Besides, the beg the question of whether not the US can stop a war of a sovereign nation. I am certainly in favor of the right of Israel to protect itself but what is happening in Gaza is genocide and breeding more terrorists.
The protests have moved beyond their usefulness and whatever sympathy we had for their cause (to stop the killing of innocent Palestinians ) is waning. The people in charge have gone nuts. The administrators and police are showing great restraint.
Waco1947
Doc Holliday
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Waco1947 said:

I believe in protests. They are protected by the Constitution "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
However these protests are not peaceable and disturb the common life of other students.
Besides, the beg the question of whether not the US can stop a war of a sovereign nation. I am certainly in favor of the right of Israel to protect itself but what is happening in Gaza is genocide and breeding more terrorists.
The protests have moved beyond their usefulness and whatever sympathy we had for their cause (to stop the killing of innocent Palestinians ) is waning. The people in charge have gone nuts. The administrators and police are showing great restraint.
This is actually mostly spot on
sombear
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I mostly agree with you. The focus by leftists and the media on a problem that largely does not exist helps nobody and hurts a lot of folks.

But I don't think it's fair to say it's all emotion or to just get over it. It's unfortunately a core part of their history even recent history. I completely understand and empathize.

Heck, many of our own world views are based on what happened to our respective peoples halfway across the world. Theirs are much closer to home (at home) and more recent.

One more thing, it's not just police brutality per se but also real and perceived general mistreatment, targeting, etc.
Jack Bauer
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ShooterTX said:

Jack Bauer said:

Look how much progress we have made!




These camps have NOTHING to do with Free Speech. They were illegal from the get go, and ALL of them should have been arrested & expelled immediately.
These people are promoting evil. They do not deserve a place in normal society... other than prison.

Imagine a white student at Baylor telling a black student they need to leave a part of campus and harassing them along the way.
boognish_bear
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muddybrazos said:

Plus it's an election year so the usual people who fund this stuff are just running their gameplan.


All of this nonsense on the campuses is more damaging to the Democrats… Don't you think?
boognish_bear
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Jack Bauer said:

UCLA leadership should be fired ASAP for allowing students to build a make shift CHAZ protest camp on campus




I don't understand why these schools are letting themselves get out leveraged?
Forest Bueller_bf
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Waco1947 said:

I believe in protests. They are protected by the Constitution "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
However these protests are not peaceable and disturb the common life of other students.
Besides, the beg the question of whether not the US can stop a war of a sovereign nation. I am certainly in favor of the right of Israel to protect itself but what is happening in Gaza is genocide and breeding more terrorists.
The protests have moved beyond their usefulness and whatever sympathy we had for their cause (to stop the killing of innocent Palestinians ) is waning. The people in charge have gone nuts. The administrators and police are showing great restraint.
Wow, I only disagree with one thing here.
boognish_bear
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Waco1947 said:


The protests have moved beyond their usefulness and whatever sympathy we had for their cause (to stop the killing of innocent Palestinians ) is waning.


I do not know what the percentages are…but it seems like more and more of these protests are not pro-Palestine but in fact pro-Hamas.

I can understand that some people have sympathy for the Palestinian civilians that are caught in the middle of all of this....but I can't understand any reasonable person supporting Hamas.

Especially the fact that Hamas would be in direct opposition of many of the liberal viewpoints of the protesters. I can't make that make any sense in my mind.
boognish_bear
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Jack Bauer
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boognish_bear said:


Jack Bauer
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George Washington statue at George Washington University...

This is your brain


This is your brain on liberalism

Frank Galvin
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About 90% of this thread is a comment on how the protestors demonstrate how crazy liberals are.

Which is really odd in that the protest is aimed at the policy of a liberal president.

And many liberal universities are shutting down the protests.

And conservatives are leading the charge to criminalize hate speech.
sombear
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Frank Galvin said:

About 90% of this thread is a comment on how the protestors demonstrate how crazy liberals are.

Which is really odd in that the protest is aimed at the policy of a liberal president.

And many liberal universities are shutting down the protests.

And conservatives are leading the charge to criminalize hate speech.



There are liberals and there are unhinged, extreme woke leftists. Unfortunately, the latter has become the base of the Dem party.

Most of the truly liberal universities work truly liberal leadership either took far too long or have caved and negotiated ridiculous agreements with the protestors.

Again you're conflating issues on hate speech. I don't know many folks on the right wanting to criminalize hate speech. Kicked out of a university, sure. The criminal behavior are direct threats, etc. but mostly the property and violence related crimes.
Jack Bauer
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Frank Galvin said:

About 90% of this thread is a comment on how the protestors demonstrate how crazy liberals are.

Which is really odd in that the protest is aimed at the policy of a liberal president.

And many liberal universities are shutting down the protests.

And conservatives are leading the charge to criminalize hate speech.

"Shutting down the protests"???

Faculty are linking arms to prevent police from entering the encapment.

Students are occupying and vandalizing buildings for days.

We are past "a few tents" on the grass




Osodecentx
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13371699/amp/UNC-protest-Israel-frat-American-flag-protected.html

UNC frat boys protect the flag
Forest Bueller_bf
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Frank Galvin said:

About 90% of this thread is a comment on how the protestors demonstrate how crazy liberals are.

Which is really odd in that the protest is aimed at the policy of a liberal president.

And many liberal universities are shutting down the protests.

And conservatives are leading the charge to criminalize hate speech.

I actually agree with some of your schtick, but make no mistake here, the protests are aimed at Israel and Jews.

Biden is just collateral damage.

Mothra
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sombear said:

cowboycwr said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

Porteroso said:

Wangchung said:

sombear said:

Redbrickbear said:

Forest Bueller_bf said:

Redbrickbear said:


Of course it is a top priority.

If one group of citizens can be targeted like this with impunity, and
no retribution for blatant antisemitism, then any group of citizens
can be targeted in a similar way.



GOP leadership is weak,

They have been pretty strong on being against anti-semitism

The question is where were they during the anti-White pogroms during BLM?

Mitt Romney was out there marching in the street with the DC BLM

Has any top GOP leader been out marching in the street with the pro-Palestinian protestors? of course not


Rarely do I defend BLM for anything, but there were different kinds of BLM marches and protests. Yea, it's become a punch line, but fact is, a majority were peaceful and reasonable. There were, in fact, multiple marches where police forces joined. There were prayer sessions involving all kinds. If any of those would have been near me, I may well have attended. As for those that were violent/radical, there were plenty of conservative politicians and influencers calling it out and saying more should be done.
Based on the fact that the BLM marches were predicated on the lie that police are hunting down innocent black people NONE of the BLM marches were "reasonable."

Whether police always do the right thing or not, it is always reasonable to ask them to do the right thing.

The vast majority of BLM protesters were asking that police who kill innocent blacks be held accountable, and that they seek to treat everyone fairly.

It could be argued that in the past decade or 2 police themselves have become much more diverse, better representing the demographics of the U.S., and that for every mistreatment of a black American, there are probably 3 of a white American. However, the centuries before that created a narrative very different, and when such injustice has been perpetrated for so long, it just takes more than 1 or 2 decades of fair policecwork to change the societal narrative.

The peaceful BLM protests were exactly reasonable, and anyone making use of their right to peacefully protest, I applaud, even if I disagree with the cause.
I'm glad that you also agree that the blm riots were about feelings and narrative rather than facts and reality.

Centuries of police brutality is a fact. Yes people care. I do think recent police brutality was vastly overstated by mainstream media, but I am glad that people protested this perception. If you thought it was real, you'd have to be a real monster to not support such protests.
Centuries?????

Police were not even a common thing until very recently (in terms of human history).


I'm about as pro-cop as anyone, and it drives some of my libertarian and black friends crazy. I moved hard that way after going on some police ride alongs with some black friends and doing more research. We all developed a healthy respect for the jobs cops have to do.
Anyone overly critical of policing needs to do this. Ride-alongs are eye-opening. These guys put their lives on the line almost every single day.
muddybrazos
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boognish_bear said:

muddybrazos said:

Plus it's an election year so the usual people who fund this stuff are just running their gameplan.


All of this nonsense on the campuses is more damaging to the Democrats… Don't you think?
One would think so but you would also think that burning down and looting cities in 2020 would be damaging to dems too. I know the democrat mayor here in Charleston, SC told the cops to stand down while the rioters trashed King st after a BLM "peaceful" protest. The business owners and residents didnt forget and the first republican mayor in like 150 years was elected just a few months back.

I dont pretend to know whats in the playbook or who's calling the plays. Most dems are just vote blue no matter who anyways
 
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