TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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ATL Bear said:

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TexasScientist said:

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nein51 said:

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Mitch Blood Green said:

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I was hoping this would be a good discussion about open marriage (which is marriage). Clearly many of you have to mature to this discussion.

Let me see if I can help. A few things. I am black. Outside of my wife, I only date migrant women which my wife isn't.

Once I explained that the migrant women were taking black jobs(doing me) she accepted it and blamed Biden.

Once you've had the joy of being called "Papi" in the middle of the throws? You'll understand.

My point is, you have to get your wife on board with the proper explanation. "I'm not cheating. She's Asian and you're not." Sell it!

---

What do you want to discuss? We have many, many swinger friends. 99% of them you would never know unless you asked them and I would place money that almost all of their relationships are healthier than average. Some of them sit in the same churches you do. Some of them teach at some of those churches.

The overwhelming majority are normal people with abnormal sex lives and relationships. Some are freaks but that's no different than any other type of relationship/interaction.

---

You're absolutely correct. I know a couple who are swingers, and also have an open relationship. They've been married for years, and both say their marriage is healthy and they are deeply in love and committed to each other. The divorce rate in that group is no higher than that in the Christian community. It may even be less. I can't tell you how many married men I've known who cheat on their wives and are leaders in their church. What works for some doesn't for others.

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Divorce rate in open marriages is over 90%.

https://worldmetrics.org/open-marriage-divorce-statistics/

Apparently these couples need more than additional sex partners.

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Sorry I know WAY too many LS couples to believe that's accurate.

I absolutely would believe that 90% of people in the LS are on their second/third/fourth marriage. In fact I think we only know one couple on their first marriage but they have been together 25 years since college.

---

I agree. I know many who have been married for years, some high school sweethearts. I also know many that are on their second or third marriage, and have found their LS marriage is more fulfilling for them than their previous marriages, and has already lasted for many years longer. I know one couple, married since high school for over 40 years, and they are regularly involved in their church, and Trumpers to boot.

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I mean it's not as if infidelity has been a wrecker of relationships since, I don't know, the beginning of relationships…

I guess the anecdotes tell the real story…

KaiBear said:

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Not disputing you as I suspect you are correct.

But where in the New Testament does Jesus forbid divorce ?

---

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly states,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

He reiterates this teaching in Matthew 19:6-8, saying,

"So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

Coke Bear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Not disputing you as I suspect you are correct.

But where in the New Testament does Jesus forbid divorce ?

---

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly states,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

He reiterates this teaching in Matthew 19:6-8, saying,

"So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

---

Thank you

All forms of perversion are flat out wrong. It's pretty simple but we find all kinds of ways to make excuses for our sins.

Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

But those are not open. That is a different discussion, I think you could get a good conversation on our B12 brother's site - BYU...

FLBear5630 said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

But those are not open. That is a different discussion, I think you could get a good conversation on our B12 brother's site - BYU...

---

I don't know how monogamy survives Obergefell.

If we must redefine marriage to extend equality to homosexual relationships, how can we justify outlawing polygamy?

whiterock said:

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I don't know how monogamy survives Obergefell.

If we must redefine marriage to extend equality to homosexual relationships, how can we justify outlawing polygamy?

---

"We are not a nation of laws, and never have been. We are a nation of political will, and always will be."
- Steve Deace

That is how.

whiterock said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Coke Bear said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

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Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

But those are not open. That is a different discussion, I think you could get a good conversation on our B12 brother's site - BYU...

---

I don't know how monogamy survives Obergefell.

If we must redefine marriage to extend equality to homosexual relationships, how can we justify outlawing polygamy?

---

Good point, polygamy is in the Bible. Homosexuality is taboo, period.

My comment was tongue in cheek, but it does bring up a good point.

Obergefell is a fraud, a lie. It's fake marriage. God created the institution of marriage between a man & a woman (Adam & Eve) and mere humans cannot arbitrarily redefine it to benefit of a tiny number of perverts. All such efforts are illegitimate, the work of a handful of corrupt politicians in black robes.

It's not about equality and never has been. It's about trying to legitimize perversion and give special privileges to perverts. We have seen that clearly ever since with persecution of those who disagree and ignoring people's first amendment rights, among others.

From a Christian perspective, open marriages are unions based on adultery. They are sinful.

From a secular perspective, it's your right to live how you want. Truth is though, open marriages are unhealthy because it devalues intimate relationships and that sanctity between a man and a wife. It instead prioritizes hedonism over partner intimacy. I'd equate an open marriage with two "friends with benefits" living together, both seeking sexual perversion to spice their life up.

Last from a societal perspective, acceptance of this and pretending it doesn't or won't hurt anyone is wishful thinking. Sexual perversions always seek out others and the grooming of others. They will try to draw others into their perversions. Always happens.

Sound analysis

TinFoilHatPreacherBear said:

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From a Christian perspective, open marriages are unions based on adultery. They are sinful.

From a secular perspective, it's your right to live how you want. Truth is though, open marriages are unhealthy because it devalues intimate relationships and that sanctity between a man and a wife. It instead prioritizes hedonism over partner intimacy. I'd equate an open marriage with two "friends with benefits" living together, both seeking sexual perversion to spice their life up.

Last from a societal perspective, acceptance of this and pretending it doesn't or won't hurt anyone is wishful thinking. Sexual perversions always seek out others and the grooming of others. They will try to draw others into their perversions. Always happens.

---

It doesn't necessarily devalue the sanctity between a man and wife. How do you define perversion and how do you define sanctity?

I agree with the first three sentences, but after that it's really more about your religious viewpoint.

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman..

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

One from column 1
One from column 2
and egg roll

Same as always. Pick and choose.

4th and Inches said:

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Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman..

---

Are you really going to complicate things for 1947 with this?

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman.. I have argued before many times with your interpretation of scripture. Your doctrine is simply a Catholic interpretation. You have fought battles with other protestants on their interpretation. So man and woman are scripture is only your interpretation.
The Bible does not speak with one voice about marriage. See David's and Solomon's marriages.
Mark 10 is not about man and woman but marriage and divorce. Jesus is clearly responding to the Pharisees' question on divorce not the nature of one's sexual identity. But doctrine blinds you that to my interpretation.

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman.. I have argued before many times with your interpretation of scripture. Your doctrine is simply a Catholic interpretation. You have fought battles with other protestants on their interpretation. So man and woman are scripture is only your interpretation.
The Bible does not speak with one voice about marriage. See David's and Solomon's marriages.
Mark 10 is not about man and woman but marriage and divorce. Jesus is clearly responding to the Pharisees' question on divorce not the nature of one's sexual identity. But doctrine blinds you that to my interpretation.

---

---

weird, Mark 10 is basically Genesis 2:24 and is also Matthew 19

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias?

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman.. I have argued before many times with your interpretation of scripture. Your doctrine is simply a Catholic interpretation. You have fought battles with other protestants on their interpretation. So man and woman are scripture is only your interpretation.
The Bible does not speak with one voice about marriage. See David's and Solomon's marriages.
Mark 10 is not about man and woman but marriage and divorce. Jesus is clearly responding to the Pharisees' question on divorce not the nature of one's sexual identity. But doctrine blinds you that to my interpretation.

---

---

weird? It is literally in the text., Mark 10 Some testing him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias? Of course, I am biased but biased toward equality and sexual identity.

---

Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman.. I have argued before many times with your interpretation of scripture. Your doctrine is simply a Catholic interpretation. You have fought battles with other protestants on their interpretation. So man and woman are scripture is only your interpretation.
The Bible does not speak with one voice about marriage. See David's and Solomon's marriages.
Mark 10 is not about man and woman but marriage and divorce. Jesus is clearly responding to the Pharisees' question on divorce not the nature of one's sexual identity. But doctrine blinds you that to my interpretation.

---

---

weird? It is literally in the text., Mark 10 Some testing him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias? Of course, I am biased but biased toward equality and sexual identity.

---

Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.

---

Mark 10:7-8

7 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

This describes an exact model on how to behave.. as it was in the old testimate, so it is under the word..

Live of the world or of the word, your bias is towards the world

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman.. I have argued before many times with your interpretation of scripture. Your doctrine is simply a Catholic interpretation. You have fought battles with other protestants on their interpretation. So man and woman are scripture is only your interpretation.
The Bible does not speak with one voice about marriage. See David's and Solomon's marriages.
Mark 10 is not about man and woman but marriage and divorce. Jesus is clearly responding to the Pharisees' question on divorce not the nature of one's sexual identity. But doctrine blinds you that to my interpretation.

---

---

weird? It is literally in the text., Mark 10 Some testing him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias? Of course, I am biased but biased toward equality and sexual identity.

---

Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.

---

Mark 10:7-8

7 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

This describes an exact model on how to behave.. as it was in the old testimate, so it is under the word..

Live of the world or of the word, your bias is towards the world

---

Quote:

---

weird? It is literally in the text., Mark 10 Some testing him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias? Of course, I am biased but biased toward equality and sexual identity.

---

Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.
Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.

What's crucial is that Monogamy is the standard of the Bible. I strongly believe in that Biblical standard.

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman.. I have argued before many times with your interpretation of scripture. Your doctrine is simply a Catholic interpretation. You have fought battles with other protestants on their interpretation. So man and woman are scripture is only your interpretation.
The Bible does not speak with one voice about marriage. See David's and Solomon's marriages.
Mark 10 is not about man and woman but marriage and divorce. Jesus is clearly responding to the Pharisees' question on divorce not the nature of one's sexual identity. But doctrine blinds you that to my interpretation.

---

---

weird? It is literally in the text., Mark 10 Some testing him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias? Of course, I am biased but biased toward equality and sexual identity.

---

Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.

---

Mark 10:7-8

7 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

This describes an exact model on how to behave.. as it was in the old testimate, so it is under the word..

Live of the world or of the word, your bias is towards the world

---

Quote:

---

weird? It is literally in the text., Mark 10 Some testing him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias? Of course, I am biased but biased toward equality and sexual identity.

---

Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.
Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.

What's crucial is that Monogamy is the standard of the Bible. I strongly believe in that Biblical standard.

---

how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

4th and Inches said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Coke Bear said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

LIB,MR BEARS said:

---

Waco1947 said:

---

Open marriage is Not a marriage.

---

but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

---

Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

---

That's very bigoted of you to limit a marriage to just two people.

There are 1000's of thruples and other polyamorous relationships that would disagree with you.

They are all about fidelity to each other and their union.

---

Not bigoted but scriptural.
Yeah, I believe the Bible about fidelity.

---

also says between a man and woman.. I have argued before many times with your interpretation of scripture. Your doctrine is simply a Catholic interpretation. You have fought battles with other protestants on their interpretation. So man and woman are scripture is only your interpretation.
The Bible does not speak with one voice about marriage. See David's and Solomon's marriages.
Mark 10 is not about man and woman but marriage and divorce. Jesus is clearly responding to the Pharisees' question on divorce not the nature of one's sexual identity. But doctrine blinds you that to my interpretation.

---

---

weird? It is literally in the text., Mark 10 Some testing him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias? Of course, I am biased but biased toward equality and sexual identity.

---

Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.

---

Mark 10:7-8

7 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one flesh.

This describes an exact model on how to behave.. as it was in the old testimate, so it is under the word..

Live of the world or of the word, your bias is towards the world

---

Quote:

---

weird? It is literally in the text., Mark 10 Some testing him, asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her."

Are you sure or are you making your interpretation fit your bias? Of course, I am biased but biased toward equality and sexual identity.

---

Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.
Mark 10 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' describes accurately how history happened, that is but they are not meant to be models for how we should behave.

What's crucial is that Monogamy is the standard of the Bible. I strongly believe in that Biblical standard.

---

how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?

---

Doesn't Leviticus call it an abomination? 1 Corinthians is pretty clear as well.

He's trolling you again. You cannot use logic because he goes to care how ludicrous and idiotic his lies seem.

You can add Christ's teachings on divorce to bolster your point. Clearly, God created marriage as a holy institution from Genesis (Adam & Eve) through Revelation (using marriage as a metaphor in our relationship with Christ: the Church is His bride). Any way you cut it, marriage was created by God for the purpose of procreation. At no point in the Bible, to my knowledge, did God ever promote or even condone polygamy. And He certainly does not tolerate fake marriage (same sex). Yes, David, Solomon, and many other Old Testament men had multiple wives & concubines but this wasn't God's plan. Look at Abraham's & Sarah's lack of faith resulting in his son Ishmael born to Hagar & literally thousands of years of tensions between Jews & Arabs. Obviously, those issues are much more complicated but that event is the root cause.

Just because the Bible describes something happening does not mean God wanted it to happen. In fact, God explicitly condemned Solomon's foreign wives & their false gods which led the Israelites to betray God by "whoring after" those false gods.

4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

Waco1947 said:

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4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

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excuse me sir, can I get nothing from column 1, two from column 2 and an extra egg roll?

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

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excuse me sir, can I get nothing from column 1, two from column 2 and an extra egg roll?

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I would like to see your thoughtful argument about the weaknesses in my interpretation.

WWDD?

PA.

- UL

... and, as always, TIA.

{ sipping coffee }

Waco1947 said:

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4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female.

Coke Bear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Not disputing you as I suspect you are correct.

But where in the New Testament does Jesus forbid divorce ?

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In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly states,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

He reiterates this teaching in Matthew 19:6-8, saying,

"So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

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That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

4th and Inches said:

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Waco1947 said:

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4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female. And I am sure you're ok with all the deaths? And why the Geneva Bible?

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Waco1947 said:

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4th and Inches said:

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Waco1947 said:

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4th "how do you reconcile man leaves his mother and father, and becomes united with his wife as to become one flesh. Two become one gives you a solid reference for monogamy. Man leaving his mother and father and becoming united with his wife is your stumbling block.

How does a man leave his mother and father and become united with his wife as to become one if there is not one male and one female in the union?"
Great question -- Scripture seems pretty clear.
But I invite you to look at the story this way. 'The narrative of becoming one flesh is an accurate recording of history for the Jewish faith but proscriptive. It is simply description of what happened on the day of creation. God does not command it.

---

ok, it is an accurate recording of history but is too prohibitive in your line of thinking..


Leviticus 20
1599 Geneva Bible

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Thou shalt say also to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that dwell in Israel, that giveth his children unto Molech, he shall die the death, the people of the land shall stone him to death.
3 And I will set my face against that man and cut him off from among his people, because he hath given his children unto Molech, for to defile my Sanctuary, and to pollute mine holy Name.
4 And if the people of the land hide their eyes, and wink at that man when he giveth his children unto Molech, and kill him not,
5 Then will I set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him to commit *****dom with Molech, from among their people.
6 If any turn after such as work with spirits, and after soothsayers to go a [d]whoring after them, then will I set my face against that person, and will cut him off from among his people.
7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.
8 Keep ye therefore mine ordinances, and do them: I am the Lord which doth sanctify you.
9 If there be any that curseth his father or his mother he shall die the death, seeing he hath cursed his father and his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, because he hath committed adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall die the death.
11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife, because he hath uncovered his father's shame, they shall both die: their blood shall be upon them.
12 Also the man that lieth with his daughter-in-law, they both shall die the death, they have wrought [f]abomination, their blood shall be upon them.
13 The man also that lieth with the male, as one lieth with a woman, they have both committed abomination: they shall die the death, their blood shall be upon them.
14 Likewise he that taketh a wife and her mother, committeth wickedness: they shall burn him and them with fire, that there be no wickedness among you.

Leviticus 20:13 disagrees with your individual belief that God has not commanded marriage to be just male and female. And I am sure you're ok with all the deaths? And why the Geneva Bible?

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oldest one i could quote easily. Words tend to be updated and change in meaning and tone. If you still lived in the time this bible was taught, your moral compass would probably be different as the modern wording of the bible has taken a softer tone which people find easier to dismiss.

If God says that is how it must be then I am ok with it.

I dont believe in God when it is convenient, God is.. and therefore I am, as a child of God, ok with the harshness of God's law and God's mercy and grace.

LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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LIB,MR BEARS said:

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Waco1947 said:

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Open marriage is Not a marriage.

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but what if it's with three men that I genuinely love?

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Marriage regardless of one's sexual identity is still marriage between2 people. Marriages regardless sexuality are at heart about fidelity, an intimacy which cannot be violated without serious consequence.

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we call the third party an immigrant partner. They entered into the covenant illegally but we believe it is right to grant them all the rights of a spouse.

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Can they vote?

J.R. said:

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Coke Bear said:

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KaiBear said:

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Not disputing you as I suspect you are correct.

But where in the New Testament does Jesus forbid divorce ?

---

In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus clearly states,

"But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

He reiterates this teaching in Matthew 19:6-8, saying,

"So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate. "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning."

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That is not how it works. I am divorced unfortuanlly and there was no Infidelity on either side. It just isn't that simple. Life can be hard.

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Something else that is hard; understanding and living by the meaning of the word "covenant".

I'm not slamming you. I've got lots of friends and family that have been through divorce, both with and without infidelity.

I've been married 38 years and, on more than one occasion, have wanted to take a walk. I'm sure it's the same for my wife. Neither of us did because we chose not to quit on ourselves or on the other-even if we didn't particularly care for the other at the time.

Marriage is not 50/50. It is 100/100.

It's not a contract that says if you do A, I'll do B

It's a covenant that says regardless of what you do, I will still do what I committed to… for better or worse and you know the rest. Divorce is choosing self over working for the other, mutually or not.

An unwanted pregnancy is similar. A person knows that life will be hard, that all their plans are destroyed if they have the child so, they choose self over a hard life.

You're right, sometimes life can be hard.