FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

I think it's been made clear who is believing the wrong thing. At least to those who actually believe in Jesus and have the Holy Spirit, and who seek what is true.

FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

If you're saying you believe in the right thing, then you believe that you're going to Hell. Because you don't believe in the Marian dogmas. That's a dogmatic tradition of your church!! How's sola scriptura looking now?

Pure irony. And I'M the one who's not getting it??

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

If you're saying you believe in the right thing, then you believe that you're going to Hell. Because you don't believe in the Marian dogmas. That's a dogmatic belief of your church.

Pure irony. And I'M the one who's not getting it??

---

Have you ever read about any of this that you babble as if you are an expert?

My relationship with the Church is between me and the Church. You do not enter into the equation. So, don't you worry about me going to Hell. Take care of yourself, maybe some self-reflection on whether you are doing this for his Glory or yours... Or does that matter to your faith?

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

If you're saying you believe in the right thing, then you believe that you're going to Hell. Because you don't believe in the Marian dogmas. That's a dogmatic belief of your church.

Pure irony. And I'M the one who's not getting it??

---

Have you ever read about any of this that you babble as if you are an expert?

My relationship with the Church is between me and the Church. You do not enter into the equation. So, don't you worry about me going to Hell. Take care of yourself, maybe some self-reflection on whether you are doing this for his Glory or yours... Or does that matter to your faith?

---

Why does anyone need to be an "expert"? This is the open, clear, dogmatic declaration of the Roman Catholic Church!! It's not a secret, for God's sake. It's baffling that you don't even seem to be aware of it. Does your church know?

Your relationship with your Church won't save you. Jesus is saying it's your relationship with HIM is what's all that matters in the world. And he clearly told you in the Bible to come to him directly, and he will meet with you directly - no mention of any pope, priest, Mary, or the Church needed. Salvation is by your faith in Jesus alone, not in the name of your church, any man made tradition, any pope or priest, any sacrament you perform, or any intercession you get from Mary or a saint.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

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If you're saying you believe in the right thing, then you believe that you're going to Hell. Because you don't believe in the Marian dogmas. That's a dogmatic belief of your church.

Pure irony. And I'M the one who's not getting it??

---

Have you ever read about any of this that you babble as if you are an expert?

My relationship with the Church is between me and the Church. You do not enter into the equation. So, don't you worry about me going to Hell. Take care of yourself, maybe some self-reflection on whether you are doing this for his Glory or yours... Or does that matter to your faith?

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Why does anyone need to be an "expert"? This is the open, clear, dogmatic declaration of the Roman Catholic Church!! It's not a secret, for God's sake. It's baffling that you don't even seem to be aware of it. Does your church know?

Your relationship with your Church won't save you. Jesus is saying it's your relationship with HIM is what's all that matters in the world. And he clearly told you in the Bible to come to him directly, and he will meet with you directly - no mention of any pope, priest, Mary, or the Church needed. Salvation is by your faith in Jesus alone, not in the name of your church, any man made tradition, any pope or priest, any sacrament you perform, or any intercession you get from Mary or a saint.

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I don't need you to "Protestant-splain" the Catholic Church. Send Tammy Faye another $50 and call it a day.


You are in a Pope Leo thread, show some respect. Or will just ignore you. Since you seem to be more troll than wanting to have a discussion.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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I refuse to accept it, as anyone should, because none of this is evidence of Peter as being the pope. Jesus telling Peter to strengthen his brothers may indicate a kind of leadership role among the disciples, but this is not evidence of his discipleship being anything more than being "first among equals", as it is quite evident throughout the New Testament that the disciples had shared responsibilities. And in the council at Jerusalem, it was James who had the final say, not Peter. Paul or James didn't said anything about a single apostle being the leader of the church in their writings. Even Peter didn't address himself as such. Even after Peter was supposedly given the "keys" (an authority which was also given to the other disciples two chapters later), the disciples were debating who was the greatest in the kingdom. Kind of curious that they would be arguing this, if Peter was named by Jesus himself to be the supreme leader over his church.

---

Council - Peter had a critical role at the council and declared the doctrine of salvation was for both Jews and Gentiles. James was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem. Peter respected that authority and James' opinion carried weight in the local context.

Arguing 1) Misunderstanding of Jesus' mission. They believed that his kingdom was pollical and not spiritual.
2) Human nature to seek status and recognition.
3) Teaching opportunity to emphasize that greatness is found in humility and service Matthew 20:26

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Jesus praying for Peter does not necessarily indicate his supreme leadership role either. This is yet another example of a complete non sequitur used to work towards the conclusion you want. I'm pretty sure Jesus prayed for all his apostles. Plus, Jesus could have prayed specifically for Peter, because of the weakness he had previously shown when denying him.

---

Now who's reading their conclusion with their evidence already in mind?

Do you have a church? Do you have a leader in your church? Why do you have a leader? Who decides when to meet? How was that leader decided?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Roman Catholicism argues with the conclusion it wants already in mind, and looks for biblical evidence to fit it's conclusion. This isn't proper exegesis or intellectual honesty when dealing with biblical church history. The fact remains that you still have NO evidence which names Peter as the head over all of Jesus' church in explicit terms. You would think that something of such preeminent importance to the church would have been mentioned somewhere in the Bible, or even in history, if it truly existed. It's virtual absence makes Roman Catholicism rest its case entirely on innuendo from scripture, and that clearly indicates just how weak this claim is.

---

I just provided you several biblical items for evidence, which you will not accept. Even protestant scholars believe that Peter had a preeminent role. You are locked into your anti-Catholic mindset and will not accept historical proof. All organizations need structure and a leader.

Let me ask you this, who was the first Pope/Bishop of Rome? We have one now. Who was the first?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

We'll address the "keys" and "unbroken line" later. For right now, let's just cut to the chase:

You agree, then, that the idea that Peter was the "rock" of Matthew 16 was not what the church had always and constantly believed? And thus, it was NOT always believed by the church that Peter had a primacy role over the whole church?

---

NO.

I believe that the primary reading of the text shows that Peter was the rock.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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1) The "keys" were in reference to the authority of "binding and loosing", which Jesus did in fact give to all the other apostles as well, two chapters later in Matthew 18.

---

The key represent the AUTHORITY that Peter was given. Later, he gave all the apostles the ability to "bind and loose" which demonstrates the communal aspects of leadership and decision making withing the Church. It also includes teaching, governing the community, and the disciplinary aspect of ecclesiastical decisions.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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2) Nowhere does Jesus or anyone else in the New Testament for that matter, declare that this authority could be passed down in line of succession.

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Two points are absolutely necessary to unequivocably establish as clear and evident the ruling office of the papacy - the "keys" are only given to Peter, and the keys can be passed down in succession. In light of the fact that Roman Catholicism binds salvation to believing this (it damns anyone to Hell who denies it), I would say that it absolutely requires them to not leave any doubt, since they are adding to the gospel like this. I think one can easily claim that they have NOT made it clear and evident.

---

If Jesus gave the apostles the ability to bind and loose, then he gave them the ability to make those provisions. Did Jesus lie about giving them that ability?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You'll continue to repeat this, despite repeatedly being shown that it is NOT supported by history. I'll repeat: the majority of modern historians agree that there is no evidence of a single, ruling bishop in Rome until around the 150's AD. Up until then, the church was overseen by a plurality of elders (which is what the New Testament prescribes for the organization of the church - (see how in Revelation, Jesus wrote to the heads of seven churches in Revelation, not to a single ruling bishop in Rome).

Eamon Duffy, emeritus professor of Christian History at the University of Cambridge, agrees with this consensus:

"To begin with, indeed, there was no 'pope', no bishop as such, for the church in Rome was slow to develop the office of chief presbyter, or bishop. By the end of the first century the loose pattern of Christian authority of the first generation of believers was giving way in many places to the more organised rule of a single bishop for each city, supported by a college of elders. …There is no sure way to settle on a date by which the office of ruling bishop had emerged in Rome, and so to name the first Pope, but the process was certainly complete by the time of Anicetus in the mid-150s…"

---

I don't know him. But I do know that the Letter of Clement ( AD 96) provides evidence of a signal ecclesiastical authority operating in Rome.

I also know that Ignatius of Antioch (AD 110) acknowledges the Roman's church respected position.

I also know that Irenaeus of Lyons wrote (AD 180) the lineage of bishops in Rome from the apostles.

Structure takes time. The authority of the Roman church was secured very early and it started with Peter.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

I refuse to accept it, as anyone should, because none of this is evidence of Peter as being the pope. Jesus telling Peter to strengthen his brothers may indicate a kind of leadership role among the disciples, but this is not evidence of his discipleship being anything more than being "first among equals", as it is quite evident throughout the New Testament that the disciples had shared responsibilities. And in the council at Jerusalem, it was James who had the final say, not Peter. Paul or James didn't said anything about a single apostle being the leader of the church in their writings. Even Peter didn't address himself as such. Even after Peter was supposedly given the "keys" (an authority which was also given to the other disciples two chapters later), the disciples were debating who was the greatest in the kingdom. Kind of curious that they would be arguing this, if Peter was named by Jesus himself to be the supreme leader over his church.

---

Council - Peter had a critical role at the council and declared the doctrine of salvation was for both Jews and Gentiles. James was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem. Peter respected that authority and James' opinion carried weight in the local context.

Arguing 1) Misunderstanding of Jesus' mission. They believed that his kingdom was pollical and not spiritual.
2) Human nature to seek status and recognition.
3) Teaching opportunity to emphasize that greatness is found in humility and service Matthew 20:26

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Jesus praying for Peter does not necessarily indicate his supreme leadership role either. This is yet another example of a complete non sequitur used to work towards the conclusion you want. I'm pretty sure Jesus prayed for all his apostles. Plus, Jesus could have prayed specifically for Peter, because of the weakness he had previously shown when denying him.

---

Now who's reading their conclusion with their evidence already in mind?

Do you have a church? Do you have a leader in your church? Why do you have a leader? Who decides when to meet? How was that leader decided?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Roman Catholicism argues with the conclusion it wants already in mind, and looks for biblical evidence to fit it's conclusion. This isn't proper exegesis or intellectual honesty when dealing with biblical church history. The fact remains that you still have NO evidence which names Peter as the head over all of Jesus' church in explicit terms. You would think that something of such preeminent importance to the church would have been mentioned somewhere in the Bible, or even in history, if it truly existed. It's virtual absence makes Roman Catholicism rest its case entirely on innuendo from scripture, and that clearly indicates just how weak this claim is.

---

I just provided you several biblical items for evidence, which you will not accept. Even protestant scholars believe that Peter had a preeminent role. You are locked into your anti-Catholic mindset and will not accept historical proof. All organizations need structure and a leader.

Let me ask you this, who was the first Pope/Bishop of Rome? We have one now. Who was the first?

---

I don't accept your "evidence", as no one should, because it isn't evidence. "Peter had a critical role" - so did James, and James had the final say over the whole council. They all even "fell silent" as Paul and Barnabas spoke - is Paul or Barnabas the leader of the Church? There just isn't anything here that gives the idea that Peter is the supreme leader. You're seeing something you are trained to see, nothing more.

History shows:

• that there wasn't a single bishop in Rome until the 150's AD
• supremacy of the Roman bishop wasn't an accepted idea until centuries later.
• the Roman bishop wasn't even the one who convoked the early ecumentical councils, it was the emperor.
• in the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, Rome was only given authority over her jurisdiction, while the bishops of Antioch and Alexandria held equal jurisdiction over theirs. There was no supreme authority.
• in the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, the Roman bishop wasn't even invited
• in 553 AD, the bishop of Rome forbade the Council of Constantinople II from taking place, but they didn't listen to him and met anyway. Then they jailed the Roman bishop and drove his advisors into exile.

No intellectually honest, objective person can look at all this and come away with the conclusion that the bishop of Rome had supreme authority over all the church, starting with Peter and which was passed down in succession. Sorry, your beliefs just don't line up with the historical or biblical evidence.

Coke Bear said:

---

Let me ask you this, who was the first Pope/Bishop of Rome? We have one now. Who was the first?

---

Do you not read and process anything on this forum that goes against what you already want to believe?

I'll state again what an eminent church historian said to answer your question. Eamon Duffy, emeritus professor of Church history at Cambridge University and former member of the Pontifical Historical Commission, said:

"To begin with, indeed, there was no "pope", no bishop as such, for the church in Rome was slow to develop the office of chief presbyter, or bishop. By the end of the first century the loose patter of Christian authority of the first generation of believers was giving way to many places to the more organized role of a single bishop for each city, supported by a college of elders..... There is no sure way to settle on the date by which the office of ruling had emerged in Rome, and so to name the first Pope, but the process was certainly complete by the time of Anicetus in the mid 150's."

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

We'll address the "keys" and "unbroken line" later. For right now, let's just cut to the chase:

You agree, then, that the idea that Peter was the "rock" of Matthew 16 was not what the church had always and constantly believed? And thus, it was NOT always believed by the church that Peter had a primacy role over the whole church?

---

NO.

I believe that the primary reading of the text shows that Peter was the rock.

---

Please FOCUS. I didn't ask what YOU think the primary reading shows, I asked whether you agree that the belief that Peter was the "rock" was NOT a constant belief of the early church, given the historical evidence I just provided?

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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1) The "keys" were in reference to the authority of "binding and loosing", which Jesus did in fact give to all the other apostles as well, two chapters later in Matthew 18.

---

The key represent the AUTHORITY that Peter was given. Later, he gave all the apostles the ability to "bind and loose" which demonstrates the communal aspects of leadership and decision making withing the Church. It also includes teaching, governing the community, and the disciplinary aspect of ecclesiastical decisions.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

2) Nowhere does Jesus or anyone else in the New Testament for that matter, declare that this authority could be passed down in line of succession.

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Two points are absolutely necessary to unequivocably establish as clear and evident the ruling office of the papacy - the "keys" are only given to Peter, and the keys can be passed down in succession. In light of the fact that Roman Catholicism binds salvation to believing this (it damns anyone to Hell who denies it), I would say that it absolutely requires them to not leave any doubt, since they are adding to the gospel like this. I think one can easily claim that they have NOT made it clear and evident.

---

If Jesus gave the apostles the ability to bind and loose, then he gave them the ability to make those provisions. Did Jesus lie about giving them that ability?

---

Nothing you're saying here is making your case, You're only asserting what you believe, you're not showing from the biblical text why your belief necessarily derives from the text. The biblical evidence just doesn't support a supremacy role held by Peter over the whole church, for all the reasons mentioned previously. Consider the seven churches of Revelation: they were directed by Jesus himself, the head, who spoke directly to the individual leaders of each church. Where's the pope?? There wasn't one.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You'll continue to repeat this, despite repeatedly being shown that it is NOT supported by history. I'll repeat: the majority of modern historians agree that there is no evidence of a single, ruling bishop in Rome until around the 150's AD. Up until then, the church was overseen by a plurality of elders (which is what the New Testament prescribes for the organization of the church - (see how in Revelation, Jesus wrote to the heads of seven churches in Revelation, not to a single ruling bishop in Rome).

Eamon Duffy, emeritus professor of Christian History at the University of Cambridge, agrees with this consensus:

"To begin with, indeed, there was no 'pope', no bishop as such, for the church in Rome was slow to develop the office of chief presbyter, or bishop. By the end of the first century the loose pattern of Christian authority of the first generation of believers was giving way in many places to the more organised rule of a single bishop for each city, supported by a college of elders. …There is no sure way to settle on a date by which the office of ruling bishop had emerged in Rome, and so to name the first Pope, but the process was certainly complete by the time of Anicetus in the mid-150s…"

---

I don't know him. But I do know that the Letter of Clement ( AD 96) provides evidence of a signal ecclesiastical authority operating in Rome.

I also know that Ignatius of Antioch (AD 110) acknowledges the Roman's church respected position.

I also know that Irenaeus of Lyons wrote (AD 180) the lineage of bishops in Rome from the apostles.

Structure takes time. The authority of the Roman church was secured very early and it started with Peter.

---

You're merely recycling the same weak points. Clement's letter did no such thing - the letter doesn't even name him as the writer, or even indicate that the writer was the supreme leader of the church. The majority of scholars believed this letter wasn't coming from a place of supreme authority settling a dispute, it was merely a fraternal letter (church to church). Irenaeus wrote 150 years after Jesus. Ignatius' "acknowledgement of Rome's respected position" doesn't indicate supreme authority.

There just isn't any historical or biblical evidence that supreme authority of the Roman church was secured by Peter and passed down in succession.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

Let me ask you this, who was the first Pope/Bishop of Rome? We have one now. Who was the first?

---

Do you not read and process anything on this forum that goes against what you already want to believe?

I'll state again what an eminent church historian said to answer your question. Eamon Duffy, emeritus professor of Church history at Cambridge University and former member of the Pontifical Historical Commission, said:

"To begin with, indeed, there was no "pope", no bishop as such, for the church in Rome was slow to develop the office of chief presbyter, or bishop. By the end of the first century the loose patter of Christian authority of the first generation of believers was giving way to many places to the more organized role of a single bishop for each city, supported by a college of elders..... There is no sure way to settle on the date by which the office of ruling had emerged in Rome, and so to name the first Pope, but the process was certainly complete by the time of Anicetus in the mid 150's."

---

Come on, he specializes in British 14th and 15th Century.

The Primacy of Rome is documented as early as Epistle of Clement 1 to the Corinthians. That is the earliest, as the Apostle John was still alive. But the John did not intervene, Clement 1 did the successor to Peter.

That is probably the strongest document and is known as the Epistle of Roman Primacy. But, I am sure you won't accept it. Not only that, it is not even viewed as a difference of opinion. Your view is you are right, the rest are wrong. You can quote a guy that specicalizes in Mideviel England as a source. Now, are you a troll or do you really want to know?

FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Coke Bear said:

---

Let me ask you this, who was the first Pope/Bishop of Rome? We have one now. Who was the first?

---

Do you not read and process anything on this forum that goes against what you already want to believe?

I'll state again what an eminent church historian said to answer your question. Eamon Duffy, emeritus professor of Church history at Cambridge University and former member of the Pontifical Historical Commission, said:

"To begin with, indeed, there was no "pope", no bishop as such, for the church in Rome was slow to develop the office of chief presbyter, or bishop. By the end of the first century the loose patter of Christian authority of the first generation of believers was giving way to many places to the more organized role of a single bishop for each city, supported by a college of elders..... There is no sure way to settle on the date by which the office of ruling had emerged in Rome, and so to name the first Pope, but the process was certainly complete by the time of Anicetus in the mid 150's."

---

Come on, he specializes in British 14th and 15th Century.

The Primacy of Rome is documented as early as Epistle of Clement 1 to the Corinthians. That is the earliest, as the Apostle John was still alive. But the John did not intervene, Clement 1 did the successor to Peter.

That is probably the strongest document and is known as the Epistle of Roman Primacy. But, I am sure you won't accept it. Not only that, it is not even viewed as a difference of opinion. Your view is you are right, the rest are wrong. You can quote a guy that specicalizes in Mideviel England as a source. Now, are you a troll or do you really want to know?

---

"Documented" in Clement 1? Show us.

"The John" didn't intervene? Clement 1 "did the successor" to Peter?

You can't write coherently, but you think you know more than an emeritus professor of Church history??

FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

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As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

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You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

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Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

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If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

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Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

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Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

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Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

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If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

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You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

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I had to block that fool. Just non stop hystrionics. I only prefer at this point well thought out arguments of nuance and debate. He / she just emotes

Fre3dombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

I had to block that fool. Just non stop hystrionics. I only prefer at this point well thought out arguments of nuance and debate. He / she just emotes

---

I did too. He just wants to troll.

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

I had to block that fool. Just non stop hystrionics. I only prefer at this point well thought out arguments of nuance and debate. He / she just emotes

---

LOL. You guys are only fooling yourselves. It's time to dump these childish defense mechanisms, and face the obvious truth like mature adults.

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

I had to block that fool. Just non stop hystrionics. I only prefer at this point well thought out arguments of nuance and debate. He / she just emotes

---

I did too. He just wants to troll.

---

I dint mind a little passion but trolling and constant name calling is a waste of time. Im generally more interested in why other Catholics think what they do and then other bible faiths / protestants.

Out of that i share my knowledge and understanding and they can tell me im full of it or maybe it makes some question a thing or two or i learn something.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Please FOCUS. I didn't ask what YOU think the primary reading shows, I asked whether you agree that the belief that Peter was the "rock" was NOT a constant belief of the early church, given the historical evidence I just provided?

---

I believe 100% in the word of Jesus that Peter IS the rock that Christ established His Church, in light of your "evidence."

1) Jesus literally said it. The prima facie reading proves that. I go with Jesus here.
2) I've provided 1st & 2nd century evidence from Clement, Ignatius, and Irenaeus that the Church in Rome had primacy and a list of the original bishops of Rome from Peter forward.
3) I will also listen to the magisterium which has proclaimed this for nearly 2000 years. It has been practiced and believed for this entire period.

Finally, I do reject what a 20th/21st century scholar has claimed, especially when I have not read the greater context his statement was made.

I'll trust Jesus. He said so.

Coke Bear said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Please FOCUS. I didn't ask what YOU think the primary reading shows, I asked whether you agree that the belief that Peter was the "rock" was NOT a constant belief of the early church, given the historical evidence I just provided?

---

I believe 100% in the word of Jesus that Peter IS the rock that Christ established His Church, in light of your "evidence."

1) Jesus literally said it. The prima facie reading proves that. I go with Jesus here.
2) I've provided 1st & 2nd century evidence from Clement, Ignatius, and Irenaeus that the Church in Rome had primacy and a list of the original bishops of Rome from Peter forward.
3) I will also listen to the magisterium which has proclaimed this for nearly 2000 years. It has been practiced and believed for this entire period.

Finally, I do reject what a 20th/21st century scholar has claimed, especially when I have not read the greater context his statement was made.

I'll trust Jesus. He said so.

---

If you won't answer the question, don't you see you're only proving that I'm right?

Is there ONE Roman Catholic out there who will discuss this with me honestly? Please, just ONE??

Louis Prevost, the brother of Pope Leo XIV, and his wife visited U.S. President Donald Trump at the White House today.

Image: Margo Martin pic.twitter.com/OZjNoEbbnz

— Sachin Jose (@Sachinettiyil) May 21, 2025

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

I had to block that fool. Just non stop hystrionics. I only prefer at this point well thought out arguments of nuance and debate. He / she just emotes

---

I did too. He just wants to troll.

---

I dint mind a little passion but trolling and constant name calling is a waste of time. Im generally more interested in why other Catholics think what they do and then other bible faiths / protestants.

Out of that i share my knowledge and understanding and they can tell me im full of it or maybe it makes some question a thing or two or i learn something.

---

I like the passion and the discussion. I am definitely interested in what other Catholics think. I am not interested in my questions being used against me. I am genuine enough to ask questions, I would appreciate people taking it serious. That clown did not. Trying to talk people out of their believes is low...

I'm very curious... do any of you guys pray the Novena prayers to Mary?
If you do, would you be willing to post those prayers here, for the rest of us to see them?

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

FLBear5630 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

---

As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

---

You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

---

Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

---

If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

---

Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

---

Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

---

Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

---

If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

---

You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

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I had to block that fool. Just non stop hystrionics. I only prefer at this point well thought out arguments of nuance and debate. He / she just emotes

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I did too. He just wants to troll.

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I dint mind a little passion but trolling and constant name calling is a waste of time. Im generally more interested in why other Catholics think what they do and then other bible faiths / protestants.

Out of that i share my knowledge and understanding and they can tell me im full of it or maybe it makes some question a thing or two or i learn something.

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I like the passion and the discussion. I am definitely interested in what other Catholics think. I am not interested in my questions being used against me. I am genuine enough to ask questions, I would appreciate people taking it serious. That clown did not. Trying to talk people out of their believes is low...

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I commend y'all for your patience. I think the beauty of the Church founded by Jesus of Nazareth and continued in a straight line of succession, is that even though I quibble with some of the things my fellow Catholics have said in this thread, we can still come together one Church at Mass to celebrate the Liturgy and observe the Sacraments. It is a beautiful, worldwide body that the Lord has created. Indeed, one of my favorite things is to travel to a country where we don't speak the local language and watch my kids follow the local Mass perfectly based on the cues.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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You're merely recycling the same weak points. Clement's letter did no such thing - the letter doesn't even name him as the writer, or even indicate that the writer was the supreme leader of the church. The majority of scholars believed this letter wasn't coming from a place of supreme authority settling a dispute, it was merely a fraternal letter (church to church). Irenaeus wrote 150 years after Jesus. Ignatius' "acknowledgement of Rome's respected position" doesn't indicate supreme authority.

There just isn't any historical or biblical evidence that supreme authority of the Roman church was secured by Peter and passed down in succession.

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You're playing with context in an attempt to prove your point.

The Letter of Clement was written in response to reports of strife and division in the Corinth community. It emphasized the need for unity and order.

It called for restoration of the deposed presbyters and issued a call for repentance, humility, peace, charity.

The Letter was read aloud in the early Christian communities and was almost considered canonical.

It most certainly does have an authoritative nature and Eusebius even states in his "Ecclesiastic History" that it was highly esteemed and valued by the early Church. He also stated that being read in many Christian communities reflects its acceptance and authority beyond Corinth.

ShooterTX said:

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I'm very curious... do any of you guys pray the Novena prayers to Mary?
If you do, would you be willing to post those prayers here, for the rest of us to see them?

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Never took part in Novena's. Some people pray Novenas for special intentions. Never my thing and definitely not a required activity, I would compare them to Protestant Bible Study, not everyone attends but to those that want to it is there for extra prayer or meditation.

Personally, I like the Catholic Church as it is big enough to meet the spiritual needs of many different types of people. Some prefer Novena's, my Mom loved the rosary and Novena's. My Dad didn't and was more into teaching Religious Instructions he was very into Scripture and Church Tradition. After my Mon died, he still volunteers at a local Church 20 years later, every day. He just gave up bringing the Eucharist to Hospitals and Nursing Homes at 85. His view is much more a view of service. My point being that just because there are different Prayer types does not mean that every Catholic takes part.

But, I know some do not like that and prefer a more standardized. My Wife used to be Wisconsin Synod Lutheran, if you like ONE way to worship AND someone telling you exactly what to think, what each verse means and where you fit in. I would highly recommend it.


Probably not where you were going... But, to attribute Novena's to all Catholics is really not accurate, as some do take things to far in my opinion.

DallasBear9902 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Okay, so if I belonged to a church that said you had to believe in x, y, and z for your salvation, and I can't show biblically, historically, or even logically that any of those things are true, I think I'd be questioning whether that church was really from God and whether I should be be believing what they teach anymore. I wouldn't be talking about how great the church music is and how consistent the rituals are from church to church like it was McDondald's. I'd care a great deal about the truth behind the substance, not how it's dressed to look, sound, and feel. And I'd think that any true believer in Jesus would feel the same. But that's just me.

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As I said over a week ago, good thing you don't have to be Catholic. We have showed numerous times where the info comes from, you don't have to agree with it, yet you keep discussing .

You do seem intrigued, even jealous of the history, as you continue to say the same things. I would go and talk to a Priest, it seems whatever brand of Protestantism you take part in is not doing it for you. Maybe Tammy Faye or Jerry Falwell seem a bit shallow, who knows.

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You keep attempting the "criticism of something means latent desire of it" argument as a last ditch effort to hide the fact that your defense is falling apart. No one here is stupid enough to buy it, so it's time to stop arguing like a juvenile and take adult responsibility for yourself and your beliefs by re-examining them closely in light of the well reasoned and well supported facts and arguments provided.

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Ok, let's be VERY clear, I am NOT providing a defense. I, nor anyone else on here, need to defend their beliefs to you or to other on this site. If you want to follow A version of the Bible and that be your only source of information, have at it.

I am confident enough in my believes to let you have yours. If you and Tammy Faye are good, I am glad for you. I do think we will meet in Heaven, as I truly believe making the good faith effort along with believing is more important than the details. I really don't think that God has a particular version of the Bible on his bed stand or is upset that people Honor the woman he choose to carry Christ into the world. Those are man issues, but, that is me. You keep lecturing.

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If you're still comfortable with your beliefs after what's been shown to you, then the only thing that's "VERY clear" here is that you don't really care if your beliefs are even true or not. If that really is the case, then you aren't really a Christian, and my comments aren't for you. They're for Roman Catholics who are true believers in Jesus who honestly seek truth. They most certainly would NOT feel comfortable with the Roman Catholic Church after what's been discussed by me and others. I'd ask all them to really investigate what we're saying for themselves, and read the bible for themselves, and go to Jesus directly in prayer (not Mary) and ask him to guide them to what's true. They don't need to go to a Catholic priest, they need only to go to Jesus, the Great High Priest, and his true Vicar, the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a personal thing between you and Jesus - you don't need to go through an organization like the church to get saved and to have understanding. This is what Jesus wants from us and is telling us:

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me." - Jesus, in Revelation 3:20


Jesus himself personally and directly with you. No Church. No priest. No pope. No Mary.

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Matthew 23:13 But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for you yourselves do not enter in and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter.

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Telling people they have direct access to Jesus any time they want, and don't have to go through authority figures and their rules to get to him to be saved is "shutting them out of heaven"?

You truly have no understanding. The Roman Catholic Church is exactly who the Pharisees were. They claim the only authority through which one can reach God and understand his written word; they elevate their man-made tradition over the written word of God; they place all these rules and trappings in front of people for them to get right with God (performing sacraments, Mass, avoiding mortal sins, confession only to a priest for forgiveness, etc) when God tells us that we can be right with him by being justified by faith in Jesus alone, not by our performance, and we can come to Jesus for forgiveness alone. If anyone is shutting people out of heaven, it is the Roman Catholic Church and her distortion of the Gospel and her heresy and idolatry behind the idea that you can place your trust in your salvation on Mary instead of directly on Jesus alone.

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Telling people that they are not belivers and worshipping wrong is talking people out of their relationship with God because they are not doing it to your interpretation. Sorry, you may think you are doing God's will, but so did the Pharisee's. You really should think about what you are doing. The road to hell is covered in good intentions. Maybe pray on it, I can give you some verses if you like.

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If people are not believing the right thing, or are engaging in blasphemy and idolatry, then they aren't in a right relationship with God to begin with. Any true Christian would be moved to tell them.

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You don't seem to get it. We think YOU are believing the wrong thing. You are on the wrong path of Sola Scriptura something Martin Luther came up with to keep money in Germany.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: "Stand firm and hold to the traditions you were taught by us, whether by word of mouth or by letter"

1 Tim 3:15: "The household of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Sorry, Dude. I am a to each his own person, I even wanted to discuss in a light manner the things that we may not like. But, you seem to be on the freight train that you and only you are correct. I can go through the Bible and post a ton more, with commentary. But that is overkill. We didn't even get into the Councils and Canons that the Protestant fathers agreed with, until they didn't... I do not believe in Sola Scriptura. You are wrong. Can I be more clear?

---

I had to block that fool. Just non stop hystrionics. I only prefer at this point well thought out arguments of nuance and debate. He / she just emotes

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I did too. He just wants to troll.

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I dint mind a little passion but trolling and constant name calling is a waste of time. Im generally more interested in why other Catholics think what they do and then other bible faiths / protestants.

Out of that i share my knowledge and understanding and they can tell me im full of it or maybe it makes some question a thing or two or i learn something.

---

I like the passion and the discussion. I am definitely interested in what other Catholics think. I am not interested in my questions being used against me. I am genuine enough to ask questions, I would appreciate people taking it serious. That clown did not. Trying to talk people out of their believes is low...

---

I commend y'all for your patience. I think the beauty of the Church founded by Jesus of Nazareth and continued in a straight line of succession, is that even though I quibble with some of the things my fellow Catholics have said in this thread, we can still come together one Church at Mass to celebrate the Liturgy and observe the Sacraments. It is a beautiful, worldwide body that the Lord has created. Indeed, one of my favorite things is to travel to a country where we don't speak the local language and watch my kids follow the local Mass perfectly based on the cues.

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I agree. I do believe this group arguing over the finer points is silly. We have much more in common than we don't. There is a real threat from secular atheism and other believes that do not agree. For Protestants and Catholics to fight is ridiculous, the real enemy is atheism.

I used to believe that Islam was a threar until Desert Storm. I talked to a lot of real Moslem's and Jew's. Even with them we have a common background in God to build off. I came away that the Zealots in all religions are the problem. The guy earlier on here reminded me of conversations with the more radical Moslem's I met in Saudi Arabia.