Fre3dombear said:

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canoso said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

---

Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

---

My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

---

I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

---

When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

---

How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

---

Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Fide (faith alone), Sola Gratia (grace alone), Solus Christus (Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

Fre3dombear said:

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canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

---

Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

---

My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

---

I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

---

When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

---

How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

---

I think the pertinent question is, rather, how the Roman Catholic Church schismed (to an alarming degree) from the original faith. Protestantism is merely the return to that original faith. I've said it repeatedly - Roman Catholics see the return to the original faith as a "new faith" because of how far Roman Catholicism has strayed from it.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

---

Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

---

Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

---

Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

---

Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

---

Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

---

We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

---

You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

---

I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

---

An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

---

"Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm"

Perhaps the biggest projection ever witnessed on Sicem356.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

---

Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

---

Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

---

Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

---

Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

---

Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

---

We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

---

You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

---

I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

---

An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

---

I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

---

Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

canoso said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

---

Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

---

My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

---

I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

---

When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

---

How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

---

Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Fide (faith alone), Sola Gratia (grace alone), Solus Christus (Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

---

None of which are in the Bible

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

---

Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

---

Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

---

Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

---

Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

---

Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

---

We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

---

You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

---

I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

---

An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

---

I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

---

Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

---

This response is gibberish. And you're completely avoiding the question. What does it mean to you that Jesus said "paradise" instead of heaven, and according to your belief was the thief on the cross saved, or was he not? Why are you so afraid to answer them?

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

---

Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

---

My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

---

I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

---

When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

---

How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

---

Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Fide (faith alone), Sola Gratia (grace alone), Solus Christus (Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

---

None of which are in the Bible

---

You think salvation by Jesus Christ alone is NOT in the bible??

Do you even read or study the bible?

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

---

Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

---

Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

---

Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

---

Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

---

Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

---

We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

---

You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

---

I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

---

An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

---

I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

---

Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

---

So in other words, various Protestant denominations are no different than Catholics. I would absolutely agree with that. They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately.

But again, I'll point out for the third time you still haven't answered any of my questions regarding the thief or its relevance. I guess this is just another one of those you have no answer for.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

---

Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

---

Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

---

Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

---

Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

---

Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

---

We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

---

You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

---

I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

---

An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

---

I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

---

Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

---

This response is gibberish. And you're completely avoiding the question. What does it mean to you that Jesus said "paradise" instead of heaven, and according to your belief was the thief on the cross saved, or was he not? Why are you so afraid to answer them?

---

.

He won't answer because he is unable to do so.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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canoso said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

---

Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

---

My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

---

I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

---

When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

---

How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

---

Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Fide (faith alone), Sola Gratia (grace alone), Solus Christus (Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

---

None of which are in the Bible

---

You think salvation by Jesus Christ alone is NOT in the bible??

Do you even read or study the bible?

---

Yup.

Fre3dombear said:

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canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

---

Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

---

My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

---

I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

---

When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

---

How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

---

Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Fide (faith alone), Sola Gratia (grace alone), Solus Christus (Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

---

None of which are in the Bible

---

You might want to read the Bible

Fre3dombear said:

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

canoso said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

---

Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

---

My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

---

I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

---

When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

---

How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

---

Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Fide (faith alone), Sola Gratia (grace alone), Solus Christus (Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

---

None of which are in the Bible

---

You might want to read the Bible

---

Read it cover to civer in all likelihood statistically more times than you. If not, well done. All 73 books. The whole thing. Not the abridged versiin. No short cuts. No removing things that Luther didnt like for his own hedonism. .

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Mothra said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

xfrodobagginsx said:

---

A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

---

Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

---

Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

---

Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

---

Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

---

Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

---

We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

---

You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

---

I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

---

An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

---

I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

---

Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

---

So in other words, various Protestant denominations are no different than Catholics. I would absolutely agree with that. They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately.

But again, I'll point out for the third time you still haven't answered any of my questions regarding the thief or its relevance. I guess this is just another one of those you have no answer for.

---

For probably the 10Th time or more…..

I dont think anyone could say "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics". Never heard that argument before but i have heard here various attenpted dunks on Catholicismthat are rather odd takes including peter isnt the rock, Mary isnt mother of God Jesus etc.

Such a weak argument to not like facts presented and then try to play dumb and say "yeah but whats your point" when the protestant argument led me to share the knowledge in the firet place.

It goes like this. Protestants (again i use the term very loosely as theres thousands of versions as you well point out and most dont even agree as you said on several critical points, including some are apparently even just like Catholics as you say though i guess theyd be horrified to realize it), use thiefon the cross "going to heaven" as some dispute of Catholicism, baptism, yadda yadda as a basis for "just say 'i believe' at the very end and you all good my man. Easy peasy after life of debauchery etc"

"They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately" - huh? What man is not a sinner? Catholics, protestants, protestants that arent Protestants, protestants that are just like catholics. All groups yall have mentioned. All filled 100% sinners. Thiught we were all in same page there. Maybe not based on your comment. Only Mary mother of God was without sin.

I then prove as best is possible what Jesus said. Even present some details nobody here ever even considered by the oddball responses and your response is "yeah but whats your point"

If you cant see and connect that, cant learn it for you

I and most any cstholic reserves the right that God is all powerful and can do anything. Only ever heard Protestants, even here and you know who you are, say things like "God made the rukes and he cant bend or break those rules or he is not God" thereby putting some limitation on Himself

They even claim to know exactly what judgement will be when even Paul said in 1 corinthians 4:3-5 to the contrary yet we are in the midst of those better and more knowledgeable than paul.

So if Jesus didnt goto Heaven that weekend and thief didnt go to Heaven that weekend…ive laid the points out for consideration. Do you consider that as a possibility, Why or why not?

Now answer that one question

Realitybites said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

---

I find it profoundly worth consideration what Jesus told the thief versus the other 80+ comments he made about Heaven and the word He chose in that instance in light and context of various doctrine.

Realitybites said:

---

Fre3dombear said:

---

Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

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I think most reasonable and rational people would argue that trying to use "tradition" or mere speculation to determine what occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday is far more "sus" than trying to determine what happened based on what God says in scripture. But you guys feel free to speculate all you want. For the record, I don't think the scriptural accounts are nearly as contradictory as you seem to be suggesting, but that's a topic for another day.

Regardless, freedom misses the overarching point of the reference to the thief on the cross. Whether he was in Heaven, or some other place in Sheol with Abraham, the point was the thief ended up with Christ in a place called paradise, despite not performing or receiving any sacraments, such as being baptized following his belief. That was the point in that reference. What we definitely know is the thief did not go to Hell.

Fre3dombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

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I find it profoundly worth consideration what Jesus told the thief versus the other 80+ comments he made about Heaven and the word He chose in that instance in light and context of various doctrine.

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Then I'll ask again: Did the thief end up with Jesus in a place called "paradise"? Or did he go to Hell or some fictitious place known as "purgatory" where he had to wait around for a few hundred years until he was cleansed of his sin?

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

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What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

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It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

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Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

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Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

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Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

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Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

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Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

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We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

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You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

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I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

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An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

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I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

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Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

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So in other words, various Protestant denominations are no different than Catholics. I would absolutely agree with that. They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately.

But again, I'll point out for the third time you still haven't answered any of my questions regarding the thief or its relevance. I guess this is just another one of those you have no answer for.

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For probably the 10Th time or more…..

I dont think anyone could say "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics". Never heard that argument before but i have heard here various attenpted dunks on Catholicismthat are rather odd takes including peter isnt the rock, Mary isnt mother of God Jesus etc.

Such a weak argument to not like facts presented and then try to play dumb and say "yeah but whats your point" when the protestant argument led me to share the knowledge in the firet place.

It goes like this. Protestants (again i use the term very loosely as theres thousands of versions as you well point out and most dont even agree as you said on several critical points, including some are apparently even just like Catholics as you say though i guess theyd be horrified to realize it), use thiefon the cross "going to heaven" as some dispute of Catholicism, baptism, yadda yadda as a basis for "just say 'i believe' at the very end and you all good my man. Easy peasy after life of debauchery etc"

"They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately" - huh? What man is not a sinner? Catholics, protestants, protestants that arent Protestants, protestants that are just like catholics. All groups yall have mentioned. All filled 100% sinners. Thiught we were all in same page there. Maybe not based on your comment. Only Mary mother of God was without sin.

I then prove as best is possible what Jesus said. Even present some details nobody here ever even considered by the oddball responses and your response is "yeah but whats your point"

If you cant see and connect that, cant learn it for you

I and most any cstholic reserves the right that God is all powerful and can do anything. Only ever heard Protestants, even here and you know who you are, say things like "God made the rukes and he cant bend or break those rules or he is not God" thereby putting some limitation on Himself

They even claim to know exactly what judgement will be when even Paul said in 1 corinthians 4:3-5 to the contrary yet we are in the midst of those better and more knowledgeable than paul.

So if Jesus didnt goto Heaven that weekend and thief didnt go to Heaven that weekend…ive laid the points out for consideration. Do you consider that as a possibility, Why or why not?

Now answer that one question

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Context is your friend. I didn't say, much less suggest, that "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics." Try to read a little closer and in context. You suggested that in some protestant denominations you walk into a church and have no idea what is i being taught, and that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church." I would submit that the attributes exist in Catholicism as well. I've known many Catholics whose particular church teaches quite different things. I also know some whose priests have been arrested, including the one down the street. In that way, my point was, those issues are not unique to only protestant sects (to the extent you continue to refer to them as some large, monolithic group).

And yes, we agree that these sort of things happen because all men sin, which was my point.

As for your question, I've already answered now probably a half dozen times. AGAIN, we don't know for sure where Christ went. What we do know is that he ended up in "paradise" with the thief, despite the fact that the thief did not get baptized, or engage in other acts which Catholics deem necessary to be saved. That's the position you have no answer for other than, it's God and he can do what he want. In other words, you appear to believe that God compromised on his promises to man by making an exception for the thief.

That is a very interesting view of God. He's apparently quite inconsistent in your book.

Mothra said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

---

I think most reasonable and rational people would argue that trying to use "tradition" or mere speculation to determine what occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday is far more "sus" than trying to determine what happened based on what God says in scripture. But you guys feel free to speculate all you want. For the record, I don't think the scriptural accounts are nearly as contradictory as you seem to be suggesting, but that's a topic for another day.

Regardless, freedom misses the overarching point of the reference to the thief on the cross. Whether he was in Heaven, or some other place in Sheol with Abraham, the point was the thief ended up with Christ in a place called paradise, despite not performing or receiving any sacraments, such as being baptized following his belief. That was the point in that reference. What we definitely know is the thief did not go to Hell.

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Point not missed at all except apparently by you. To simplify for you. Context was where one goes after death. Loud arguments made here for immediate to heaven or hell vs purgatory etc. context matters. This was the context. Here is an argument from Jesus' own mouth that thief so beloved by protestants as dunkability fodder on Catholics likely didnt go to Heaven that day. Argument has been made for considerstion using 80+ verses of the bible

Nu uh is a valid position for you as always should you so choose.

Not sure how much here is tradition vs actual scripture, but regardless, we are called explicitly to use tradition and in fact most for half a mellennium didnt have the written text and were left to the oral and traditions shared to align their lives with Jesus until the Catholics created the Bible

And even then gutenberg didnt mass produce the 73 books for yet another mellenoum

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

---

Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

---

I find it profoundly worth consideration what Jesus told the thief versus the other 80+ comments he made about Heaven and the word He chose in that instance in light and context of various doctrine.

---

Then I'll ask again: Did the thief end up with Jesus in a place called "paradise"? Or did he go to Hell or some fictitious place known as "purgatory" where he had to wait around for a few hundred years until he was cleansed of his sin?

---

You shall ask again and i shall answer…again.

Day as if a thousand years as He says. Seems likely he wasnt in Heaven. What more could he concluded from the text is limited so just using the text seems strong argument he was not in Heaven that day. 80+ versus to help support. For considerstion.

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

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What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

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It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

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Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

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Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

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Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

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Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

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Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

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We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

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You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

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I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

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An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

---

I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

---

Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

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So in other words, various Protestant denominations are no different than Catholics. I would absolutely agree with that. They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately.

But again, I'll point out for the third time you still haven't answered any of my questions regarding the thief or its relevance. I guess this is just another one of those you have no answer for.

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For probably the 10Th time or more…..

I dont think anyone could say "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics". Never heard that argument before but i have heard here various attenpted dunks on Catholicismthat are rather odd takes including peter isnt the rock, Mary isnt mother of God Jesus etc.

Such a weak argument to not like facts presented and then try to play dumb and say "yeah but whats your point" when the protestant argument led me to share the knowledge in the firet place.

It goes like this. Protestants (again i use the term very loosely as theres thousands of versions as you well point out and most dont even agree as you said on several critical points, including some are apparently even just like Catholics as you say though i guess theyd be horrified to realize it), use thiefon the cross "going to heaven" as some dispute of Catholicism, baptism, yadda yadda as a basis for "just say 'i believe' at the very end and you all good my man. Easy peasy after life of debauchery etc"

"They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately" - huh? What man is not a sinner? Catholics, protestants, protestants that arent Protestants, protestants that are just like catholics. All groups yall have mentioned. All filled 100% sinners. Thiught we were all in same page there. Maybe not based on your comment. Only Mary mother of God was without sin.

I then prove as best is possible what Jesus said. Even present some details nobody here ever even considered by the oddball responses and your response is "yeah but whats your point"

If you cant see and connect that, cant learn it for you

I and most any cstholic reserves the right that God is all powerful and can do anything. Only ever heard Protestants, even here and you know who you are, say things like "God made the rukes and he cant bend or break those rules or he is not God" thereby putting some limitation on Himself

They even claim to know exactly what judgement will be when even Paul said in 1 corinthians 4:3-5 to the contrary yet we are in the midst of those better and more knowledgeable than paul.

So if Jesus didnt goto Heaven that weekend and thief didnt go to Heaven that weekend…ive laid the points out for consideration. Do you consider that as a possibility, Why or why not?

Now answer that one question

---

Context is your friend. I didn't say, much less suggest, that "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics." Try to read a little closer and in context. You suggested that in some protestant denominations you walk into a church and have no idea what is i being taught, and that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church." I would submit that the attributes exist in Catholicism as well. I've known many Catholics whose particular church teaches quite different things. I also know some whose priests have been arrested, including the one down the street. In that way, my point was, those issues are not unique to only protestant sects (to the extent you continue to refer to them as some large, monolithic group).

And yes, we agree that these sort of things happen because all men sin, which was my point.

As for your question, I've already answered now probably a half dozen times. AGAIN, we don't know for sure where Christ went. What we do know is that he ended up in "paradise" with the thief, despite the fact that the thief did not get baptized, or engage in other acts which Catholics deem necessary to be saved. That's the position you have no answer for other than, it's God and he can do what he want. In other words, you appear to believe that God compromised on his promises to man by making an exception for the thief.

That is a very interesting view of God. He's apparently quite inconsistent in your book.

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I mean, heres your direct quote: " So in other words, various Protestant denominations are no different than Catholics. I would absolutely agree with that."

Guess were to infer something different from those words. Thanks for clarifying.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

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I find it profoundly worth consideration what Jesus told the thief versus the other 80+ comments he made about Heaven and the word He chose in that instance in light and context of various doctrine.

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Then I'll ask again: Did the thief end up with Jesus in a place called "paradise"? Or did he go to Hell or some fictitious place known as "purgatory" where he had to wait around for a few hundred years until he was cleansed of his sin?

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You shall ask again and i shall answer…again.

Day as if a thousand years as He says. Seems likely he wasnt in Heaven. What more could he concluded from the text is limited so just using the text seems strong argument he was not in Heaven that day. 80+ versus to help support. For considerstion.

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Thanks. A few follow up questions to try and understand your answer:

1) Was the thief with Jesus that day in a place called "paradise", as Jesus explained he would be?

2) If so, what is paradise?

3) Was the thief saved as Jesus suggests, or did he have to go through some unmentioned cleansing process over a period of days, months or years?

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

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What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

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It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

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Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

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Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

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Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

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Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

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Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

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We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

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You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

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I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

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An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

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I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

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Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

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So in other words, various Protestant denominations are no different than Catholics. I would absolutely agree with that. They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately.

But again, I'll point out for the third time you still haven't answered any of my questions regarding the thief or its relevance. I guess this is just another one of those you have no answer for.

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For probably the 10Th time or more…..

I dont think anyone could say "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics". Never heard that argument before but i have heard here various attenpted dunks on Catholicismthat are rather odd takes including peter isnt the rock, Mary isnt mother of God Jesus etc.

Such a weak argument to not like facts presented and then try to play dumb and say "yeah but whats your point" when the protestant argument led me to share the knowledge in the firet place.

It goes like this. Protestants (again i use the term very loosely as theres thousands of versions as you well point out and most dont even agree as you said on several critical points, including some are apparently even just like Catholics as you say though i guess theyd be horrified to realize it), use thiefon the cross "going to heaven" as some dispute of Catholicism, baptism, yadda yadda as a basis for "just say 'i believe' at the very end and you all good my man. Easy peasy after life of debauchery etc"

"They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately" - huh? What man is not a sinner? Catholics, protestants, protestants that arent Protestants, protestants that are just like catholics. All groups yall have mentioned. All filled 100% sinners. Thiught we were all in same page there. Maybe not based on your comment. Only Mary mother of God was without sin.

I then prove as best is possible what Jesus said. Even present some details nobody here ever even considered by the oddball responses and your response is "yeah but whats your point"

If you cant see and connect that, cant learn it for you

I and most any cstholic reserves the right that God is all powerful and can do anything. Only ever heard Protestants, even here and you know who you are, say things like "God made the rukes and he cant bend or break those rules or he is not God" thereby putting some limitation on Himself

They even claim to know exactly what judgement will be when even Paul said in 1 corinthians 4:3-5 to the contrary yet we are in the midst of those better and more knowledgeable than paul.

So if Jesus didnt goto Heaven that weekend and thief didnt go to Heaven that weekend…ive laid the points out for consideration. Do you consider that as a possibility, Why or why not?

Now answer that one question

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Context is your friend. I didn't say, much less suggest, that "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics." Try to read a little closer and in context. You suggested that in some protestant denominations you walk into a church and have no idea what is i being taught, and that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church." I would submit that the attributes exist in Catholicism as well. I've known many Catholics whose particular church teaches quite different things. I also know some whose priests have been arrested, including the one down the street. In that way, my point was, those issues are not unique to only protestant sects (to the extent you continue to refer to them as some large, monolithic group).

And yes, we agree that these sort of things happen because all men sin, which was my point.

As for your question, I've already answered now probably a half dozen times. AGAIN, we don't know for sure where Christ went. What we do know is that he ended up in "paradise" with the thief, despite the fact that the thief did not get baptized, or engage in other acts which Catholics deem necessary to be saved. That's the position you have no answer for other than, it's God and he can do what he want. In other words, you appear to believe that God compromised on his promises to man by making an exception for the thief.

That is a very interesting view of God. He's apparently quite inconsistent in your book.

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Again, knowing theres thousands of protestant beliefs to pick and choose from regarding church attendance, its nothing like walking into mass across the planet and hearing the same message every sunday for a couple billion people. Yes some nuance here and there on homily etc and infiltrators always trying to distort God's church and word, but literally zero comparison with respect to standard deviation as protestants bounce from church to church every couple of years in average.

Re thief you also wouldnt know what he did in his life and didnt do. Lots of inference there to jump to a conclusion you want.

God has infinite mercy. How he chooses to enforce the various things thrown at the average human is up to him, as paul said and in the verses i posted above regarding how he judges.

As one example, Catholic teaching is even if someone commits suicide they could go to heaven.

AGAIN, While most Protestant (using term loosely as theres thousands of versions - making clear so Mothra doesnt again try to catch me in a juvenile technicality) say thief went to heaven that day (cant know that) and wasnt baptized (cant know that)
As some basis of a catholicism dunk when it has 2 flawed premises logically to begin with

Ive provided examples of 80+ versus to prove that point for consideration.

Again context was where one goes moment of death. Protestants dunked with "THIEF ON THE CROSS!!!" As youve continued to do So i provided some facts to consider.

Ive already learned it studied it and considered it and made my conclusion. Just sharing knowledge so people decide in an informed manner with their free will.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

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I think most reasonable and rational people would argue that trying to use "tradition" or mere speculation to determine what occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday is far more "sus" than trying to determine what happened based on what God says in scripture. But you guys feel free to speculate all you want. For the record, I don't think the scriptural accounts are nearly as contradictory as you seem to be suggesting, but that's a topic for another day.

Regardless, freedom misses the overarching point of the reference to the thief on the cross. Whether he was in Heaven, or some other place in Sheol with Abraham, the point was the thief ended up with Christ in a place called paradise, despite not performing or receiving any sacraments, such as being baptized following his belief. That was the point in that reference. What we definitely know is the thief did not go to Hell.

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Point not missed at all except apparently by you. To simplify for you. Context was where one goes after death. Loud arguments made here for immediate to heaven or hell vs purgatory etc. context matters. This was the context. Here is an argument from Jesus' own mouth that thief so beloved by protestants as dunkability fodder on Catholics likely didnt go to Heaven that day. Argument has been made for considerstion using 80+ verses of the bible

Nu uh is a valid position for you as always should you so choose.

Not sure how much here is tradition vs actual scripture, but regardless, we are called explicitly to use tradition and in fact most for half a mellennium didnt have the written text and were left to the oral and traditions shared to align their lives with Jesus until the Catholics created the Bible

And even then gutenberg didnt mass produce the 73 books for yet another mellenoum

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This is another stream of conscious rant but I will see if I can decipher (really wish you'd run your posts through a grammar/spell check before posting).

Your answer to my questions above should clarify what you believe, since you don't seem to want to commit. What we know is Jesus said the thief would be with him that day in paradise. He didn't say, "You'll go to heaven once you get baptized, say your Hail Mary's and go through a thousand year cleansing process."

I'd submit the only weak argument here is your idea that Jesus meant days, weeks or years instead of what he actually said. But this is you once again trying to explain away the plain meaning of the text to support your narrative. The reason that we use that to dunk on Catholics is, well, because it does. It dunks on the unbiblical idea that we have to do certain things before we can go to Heaven.

As for tradition, we are not explicitly told to use tradition in any scripture, nor should be. Indeed, much of man-made tradition is anti-biblical. So that simply isn't a position supported by scripture.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

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What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

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It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

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Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

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Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

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Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

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Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

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Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

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We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

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You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

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I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

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An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

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I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

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Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

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So in other words, various Protestant denominations are no different than Catholics. I would absolutely agree with that. They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately.

But again, I'll point out for the third time you still haven't answered any of my questions regarding the thief or its relevance. I guess this is just another one of those you have no answer for.

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For probably the 10Th time or more…..

I dont think anyone could say "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics". Never heard that argument before but i have heard here various attenpted dunks on Catholicismthat are rather odd takes including peter isnt the rock, Mary isnt mother of God Jesus etc.

Such a weak argument to not like facts presented and then try to play dumb and say "yeah but whats your point" when the protestant argument led me to share the knowledge in the firet place.

It goes like this. Protestants (again i use the term very loosely as theres thousands of versions as you well point out and most dont even agree as you said on several critical points, including some are apparently even just like Catholics as you say though i guess theyd be horrified to realize it), use thiefon the cross "going to heaven" as some dispute of Catholicism, baptism, yadda yadda as a basis for "just say 'i believe' at the very end and you all good my man. Easy peasy after life of debauchery etc"

"They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately" - huh? What man is not a sinner? Catholics, protestants, protestants that arent Protestants, protestants that are just like catholics. All groups yall have mentioned. All filled 100% sinners. Thiught we were all in same page there. Maybe not based on your comment. Only Mary mother of God was without sin.

I then prove as best is possible what Jesus said. Even present some details nobody here ever even considered by the oddball responses and your response is "yeah but whats your point"

If you cant see and connect that, cant learn it for you

I and most any cstholic reserves the right that God is all powerful and can do anything. Only ever heard Protestants, even here and you know who you are, say things like "God made the rukes and he cant bend or break those rules or he is not God" thereby putting some limitation on Himself

They even claim to know exactly what judgement will be when even Paul said in 1 corinthians 4:3-5 to the contrary yet we are in the midst of those better and more knowledgeable than paul.

So if Jesus didnt goto Heaven that weekend and thief didnt go to Heaven that weekend…ive laid the points out for consideration. Do you consider that as a possibility, Why or why not?

Now answer that one question

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Context is your friend. I didn't say, much less suggest, that "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics." Try to read a little closer and in context. You suggested that in some protestant denominations you walk into a church and have no idea what is i being taught, and that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church." I would submit that the attributes exist in Catholicism as well. I've known many Catholics whose particular church teaches quite different things. I also know some whose priests have been arrested, including the one down the street. In that way, my point was, those issues are not unique to only protestant sects (to the extent you continue to refer to them as some large, monolithic group).

And yes, we agree that these sort of things happen because all men sin, which was my point.

As for your question, I've already answered now probably a half dozen times. AGAIN, we don't know for sure where Christ went. What we do know is that he ended up in "paradise" with the thief, despite the fact that the thief did not get baptized, or engage in other acts which Catholics deem necessary to be saved. That's the position you have no answer for other than, it's God and he can do what he want. In other words, you appear to believe that God compromised on his promises to man by making an exception for the thief.

That is a very interesting view of God. He's apparently quite inconsistent in your book.

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Again, knowing theres thousands of protestant beliefs to pick and choose from regarding church attendance, its nothing like walking into mass across the planet and hearing the same message every sunday for a couple billion people. Yes some nuance here and there on homily etc and infiltrators always trying to distort God's church and word, but literally zero comparison with respect to standard deviation as protestants bounce from church to church every couple of years in average.

Re thief you also wouldnt know what he did in his life and didnt do. Lots of inference there to jump to a conclusion you want.

God has infinite mercy. How he chooses to enforce the various things thrown at the average human is up to him, as paul said and in the verses i posted above regarding how he judges.

As one example, Catholic teaching is even if someone commits suicide they could go to heaven.

AGAIN, While most Protestant (using term loosely as theres thousands of versions - making clear so Mothra doesnt again try to catch me in a juvenile technicality) say thief went to heaven that day (cant know that) and wasnt baptized (cant know that)
As some basis of a catholicism dunk when it has 2 flawed premises logically to begin with

Ive provided examples of 80+ versus to prove that point for consideration.

Again context was where one goes moment of death. Protestants dunked with "THIEF ON THE CROSS!!!" As youve continued to do So i provided some facts to consider.

Ive already learned it studied it and considered it and made my conclusion. Just sharing knowledge so people decide in an informed manner with their free will.

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So, you believe in an inconsistent God - one who disregards the Roman Catholic idea on salvation at his whim and fancy. A thief sweet talks him on the cross, he's going to go ahead and waive all of the Roman Catholic add-ons for salvation and let him into paradise.

Interesting.

Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

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I find it profoundly worth consideration what Jesus told the thief versus the other 80+ comments he made about Heaven and the word He chose in that instance in light and context of various doctrine.

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Then I'll ask again: Did the thief end up with Jesus in a place called "paradise"? Or did he go to Hell or some fictitious place known as "purgatory" where he had to wait around for a few hundred years until he was cleansed of his sin?

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You shall ask again and i shall answer…again.

Day as if a thousand years as He says. Seems likely he wasnt in Heaven. What more could he concluded from the text is limited so just using the text seems strong argument he was not in Heaven that day. 80+ versus to help support. For considerstion.

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Thanks. A few follow up questions to try and understand your answer:

1) Was the thief with Jesus that day in a place called "paradise", as Jesus explained he would be?

Yes. I trust what Jesus said from his own mouth

2) If so, what is paradise?

Appears some "place" other than Heaven. May not be physical in out context of space and time. Again day as if 1000 years etc.

3) Was the thief saved as Jesus suggests, or did he have to go through some unmentioned cleansing process over a period of days, months or years?

Again, you may have to let go of time as day as if 1000 years etc. Catholic doctrine is at a minimum purgatory as you yourself have concluded thief was a scoundrel that lived a life unworthy of God and nothing clean enters into Heaven and he therefore must he cleansed.

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Now we're getting somewhere! Answers above

It is rather curious that in all the teachings Christ gave us he chose inly one single solitary time to use the word he chose with the thief. Maybe its a typo.

Again, context was our discussion on purgatory and where one goes when they die and people brought up THIEF ON THE CROSS!!! So i shared some thoughts in that context for consideration.

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A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

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What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

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It's interesting that Bible believing is the thing that triggered you.

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Nobody triggered. It was the most bizarre part of the post and i enjoy trying to help when I get the opportunity to talk with schismed protestants

Still never got a response from you or anyone on the paradise topic. Thats what i expected though.

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Not sure what you're talking about. What about paradise?

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Sorry, just now seeing this. Many interpretations of this wording believe Christ was referring to Heaven. I think this is the most likely interpretation, as it is used in other places of scripture to refer to Heaven.

I am not sure of the relevance of the question, however. It's certainly not a difficult question, by any measure.

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Yes. The 80 Other times Jesus spoke of Heaven and never once used this word should make one question where Jesus met the thief on the cross after his death

Any logical person would ponder.

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Ah, got it. So when Christ said he would be with the thief in paradise, what he really meant is that the thief would be with him in Hades or Purgatory because the thief didn't perform enough works to get into Heaven.

Speaking of a lack of logic, LOL. SMH.

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Did Jesus go To haven over the weekend? Smh

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We've been over this. Why are you rehashing old arguments and what does that have to do with the thief on the cross?

I get that you're trying to explain away the thief being with Christ given that it destroys the Catholic narrative on baptism and other sacraments being necessary for salvation. I'd suggest not feeling threatened by scripture but opening your mind to the possibility that your works based faith is built on a faulty premise.

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You really invent a lot of arguments in your head. I always have to bring you back to the topic. Stick to the topic. Jesus spoke of Heaven 80 times and never once used the word he used with the thief. So where did they go?

Was Jesus in heaven that weekend? Why continued refusal to answer the question? I get no one ever made you look at it this way before with these facts youd never heard before so where was he?

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I've answered these questions on another thread. I think you either don't read the posts responding to your questions, or you simply ignore the answers inconvenient for your positions.

As I said on another thread, we are not entirely sure what happened to Christ between his death and resurrection. Some verses suggest he went to Hades. Others suggest he went to Heaven. And still others suggest that he went to a place of comfort and rest for the dead in Sheol - the place of the dead - where he released the patriarchs of the faith following his salvific work on the cross. And then other verses suggest he went to all three of these places. We simply do not know, and won't know until we are with Christ in Heaven.

Now, again, I am trying to determine what you believe this discussion proves, because like many of your inane points, it doesn't seem relevant to the issue at hand. Are you attempting to argue that the thief was not saved? Or are you attempting to argue that he had to do certain things to earn salvation? And if these are your positions, what scriptural support do you have for them, if any.

Or I guess the better question is - do YOU even know what your point is, if any?

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An astute observer, which i guess you dont want to be out of stubborness or other, would rightfully question why Jesus, our Lord and Savior,used a word to the thief that protestants love to use as some way of debunking a 2000 yesr old catholic faith and Jesus' church on earth built upon the rock, as proof of something yet they dont seem to understand or question their struggle to prove that because they dont understand the greek

Just things that should make one overwhelmed with pride of their knowledge togo hmmmmm

That is all

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I don't know what other protestants say, as unlike you, I don't subscribe to the simplistic and glib idea that "protestants" are some monolithic group who all share the same set of thoughts. All I can say is what I believe.

But let's examine what you're saying here. The thief was with Christ in a place called paradise. Even you would agree with that, I believe. So, how does the fact we don't know if that's Heaven or some other place that is apparently like Heaven support any of your positions? The answer is, it doesn't.

The man was with Christ in a place called paradise. In other words, he wasn't condemned to Hell or this fictional and unmentioned place called Purgatory because he wasn't baptized or didn't perform some sort of sacrament to save himself. Indeed, he was saved, as otherwise, he wouldn't be with Christ in paradise.

That honestly should be the end of the discussions right there. But if you feel that should be interpreted differently, feel free to share your interpretation. Do you believe the man was saved or not?

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Significant amount of misunderstanding hete of the doctrine. Also ive never said theres 1 protestant belief. In fact some here even say they arent protestant and that ended in the 100s. In favt ive said thats the problem. You walk into a church and have no idea what ine is being taught. Then that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church" they say

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So in other words, various Protestant denominations are no different than Catholics. I would absolutely agree with that. They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately.

But again, I'll point out for the third time you still haven't answered any of my questions regarding the thief or its relevance. I guess this is just another one of those you have no answer for.

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For probably the 10Th time or more…..

I dont think anyone could say "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics". Never heard that argument before but i have heard here various attenpted dunks on Catholicismthat are rather odd takes including peter isnt the rock, Mary isnt mother of God Jesus etc.

Such a weak argument to not like facts presented and then try to play dumb and say "yeah but whats your point" when the protestant argument led me to share the knowledge in the firet place.

It goes like this. Protestants (again i use the term very loosely as theres thousands of versions as you well point out and most dont even agree as you said on several critical points, including some are apparently even just like Catholics as you say though i guess theyd be horrified to realize it), use thiefon the cross "going to heaven" as some dispute of Catholicism, baptism, yadda yadda as a basis for "just say 'i believe' at the very end and you all good my man. Easy peasy after life of debauchery etc"

"They are ultimately filled with sinners unfortunately" - huh? What man is not a sinner? Catholics, protestants, protestants that arent Protestants, protestants that are just like catholics. All groups yall have mentioned. All filled 100% sinners. Thiught we were all in same page there. Maybe not based on your comment. Only Mary mother of God was without sin.

I then prove as best is possible what Jesus said. Even present some details nobody here ever even considered by the oddball responses and your response is "yeah but whats your point"

If you cant see and connect that, cant learn it for you

I and most any cstholic reserves the right that God is all powerful and can do anything. Only ever heard Protestants, even here and you know who you are, say things like "God made the rukes and he cant bend or break those rules or he is not God" thereby putting some limitation on Himself

They even claim to know exactly what judgement will be when even Paul said in 1 corinthians 4:3-5 to the contrary yet we are in the midst of those better and more knowledgeable than paul.

So if Jesus didnt goto Heaven that weekend and thief didnt go to Heaven that weekend…ive laid the points out for consideration. Do you consider that as a possibility, Why or why not?

Now answer that one question

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Context is your friend. I didn't say, much less suggest, that "various protestant denominations are no different than Catholics." Try to read a little closer and in context. You suggested that in some protestant denominations you walk into a church and have no idea what is i being taught, and that preacher dies, moves on or goes to prison or whatever and you have to scan for another "bible believing church." I would submit that the attributes exist in Catholicism as well. I've known many Catholics whose particular church teaches quite different things. I also know some whose priests have been arrested, including the one down the street. In that way, my point was, those issues are not unique to only protestant sects (to the extent you continue to refer to them as some large, monolithic group).

And yes, we agree that these sort of things happen because all men sin, which was my point.

As for your question, I've already answered now probably a half dozen times. AGAIN, we don't know for sure where Christ went. What we do know is that he ended up in "paradise" with the thief, despite the fact that the thief did not get baptized, or engage in other acts which Catholics deem necessary to be saved. That's the position you have no answer for other than, it's God and he can do what he want. In other words, you appear to believe that God compromised on his promises to man by making an exception for the thief.

That is a very interesting view of God. He's apparently quite inconsistent in your book.

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Again, knowing theres thousands of protestant beliefs to pick and choose from regarding church attendance, its nothing like walking into mass across the planet and hearing the same message every sunday for a couple billion people. Yes some nuance here and there on homily etc and infiltrators always trying to distort God's church and word, but literally zero comparison with respect to standard deviation as protestants bounce from church to church every couple of years in average.

Re thief you also wouldnt know what he did in his life and didnt do. Lots of inference there to jump to a conclusion you want.

God has infinite mercy. How he chooses to enforce the various things thrown at the average human is up to him, as paul said and in the verses i posted above regarding how he judges.

As one example, Catholic teaching is even if someone commits suicide they could go to heaven.

AGAIN, While most Protestant (using term loosely as theres thousands of versions - making clear so Mothra doesnt again try to catch me in a juvenile technicality) say thief went to heaven that day (cant know that) and wasnt baptized (cant know that)
As some basis of a catholicism dunk when it has 2 flawed premises logically to begin with

Ive provided examples of 80+ versus to prove that point for consideration.

Again context was where one goes moment of death. Protestants dunked with "THIEF ON THE CROSS!!!" As youve continued to do So i provided some facts to consider.

Ive already learned it studied it and considered it and made my conclusion. Just sharing knowledge so people decide in an informed manner with their free will.

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So, you believe in an inconsistent God - one who disregards the Roman Catholic idea on salvation at his whim and fancy. A thief sweet talks him on the cross, he's going to go ahead and waive all of the Roman Catholic add-ons for salvation and let him into paradise.

Interesting.

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I believe God has infinite mercy and that i dont fully understand how he judges or what went thru the mind and heart of the thief at his moment of death. Maybe he closed his eyes and said "i believe!" Maybe thief was baptized as a baby or the week before he was crucified. How can we know? Were the apostles baptized?

You believe you know those things? Please share chapter and verse to defend.

For me i am trying to live my life and bring people tomChrist in a way unlike the thief on the cross and be baptized and follow the commandments and do what God has commanded me though i fail daily.

You seem to he falling into the error of least common denominator and projecting choices you can and have made versus choices others may never have had the opportunity to make and then projecting God's judgement on that.

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canoso said:

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canoso said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

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What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

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Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

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Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

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My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

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I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

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When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

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How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

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Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Fide (faith alone), Sola Gratia (grace alone), Solus Christus (Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

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None of which are in the Bible

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You might want to read the Bible

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Read it cover to civer in all likelihood statistically more times than you. If not, well done. All 73 books. The whole thing. Not the abridged versiin. No short cuts. No removing things that Luther didnt like for his own hedonism. .

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Strange that you missed the central tenet of Christianity - that Jesus alone is the way to salvation, which you denied was in the Bible.

If you've truly read the bible over and over (which I highly doubt), then what you were likely really doing was reading INTO the bible Roman Catholic doctrine, and reading OUT of the bible things that contradict Roman Catholic doctrine, as you are told to do. Because if you read the bible with any kind of intellectual honesty, you'd find that "Christ alone", "faith alone", "grace alone", and "glory to God alone" are all completely supported in the Bible.

Fre3dombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

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I find it profoundly worth consideration what Jesus told the thief versus the other 80+ comments he made about Heaven and the word He chose in that instance in light and context of various doctrine.

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There's nothing strange about it. "Paradise" is IN heaven: "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." - Revelation 2:7.

It'd be VERY difficult to argue that being in Paradise was NOT being in the presence of God Himself. Paradise was where Adam and Eve were, where they were directly with God. How can being in the direct presence of God be anything else but Heaven?

Please read this first post if you haven't yet.

Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Realitybites said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Not one single Protestant here responded to my explanation of paradise and where the thief on the cross went with jesus that day. In fact it immediately ended what was a lively discussion so one could only conclude it was unable to be refuted.

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Using Sola Scriptura to try and sus out the events that occurred between Good Friday and Easter Sunday ends up being like a cat playing with a ball of yarn.

First, you have the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man from Luke 16 in which Lazarus goes to be with Abraham, not God and Jesus in heaven. Furthermore, Abraham's Bosom is a place from which the "righteous" can communicate directly with the "damned." Remember, it is Jesus telling these stories, so they cannot be doctrinally inaccurate. You cannot make the case that Abraham was in Heaven without overturning core teachings of Protestantism about Heaven, Hell, and communication in the hereafter. Add to this "(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:19) and you have the doctrine of the Church of the First Millenium that the "righteous" were still not good enough to get to heaven apart from Christ and ended up in Hades, from which they were freed by Christ between Good Friday and Easter Sunday.

Second, you have the declaration of Jesus on the cross: "Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". This statement signifies that the thief would immediately enter paradise upon his death, not at some future resurrection or the end of time, but on that very day.

But after his resurrection, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17).

This is a more evidence for a Trinitarian God, for only in that context could Jesus say those two things.

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I find it profoundly worth consideration what Jesus told the thief versus the other 80+ comments he made about Heaven and the word He chose in that instance in light and context of various doctrine.

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Then I'll ask again: Did the thief end up with Jesus in a place called "paradise"? Or did he go to Hell or some fictitious place known as "purgatory" where he had to wait around for a few hundred years until he was cleansed of his sin?

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You shall ask again and i shall answer…again.

Day as if a thousand years as He says. Seems likely he wasnt in Heaven. What more could he concluded from the text is limited so just using the text seems strong argument he was not in Heaven that day. 80+ versus to help support. For considerstion.

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Thanks. A few follow up questions to try and understand your answer:

1) Was the thief with Jesus that day in a place called "paradise", as Jesus explained he would be?

Yes. I trust what Jesus said from his own mouth

2) If so, what is paradise?

Appears some "place" other than Heaven. May not be physical in out context of space and time. Again day as if 1000 years etc.

3) Was the thief saved as Jesus suggests, or did he have to go through some unmentioned cleansing process over a period of days, months or years?

Again, you may have to let go of time as day as if 1000 years etc. Catholic doctrine is at a minimum purgatory as you yourself have concluded thief was a scoundrel that lived a life unworthy of God and nothing clean enters into Heaven and he therefore must he cleansed.

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Now we're getting somewhere! Answers above

It is rather curious that in all the teachings Christ gave us he chose inly one single solitary time to use the word he chose with the thief. Maybe its a typo.

Again, context was our discussion on purgatory and where one goes when they die and people brought up THIEF ON THE CROSS!!! So i shared some thoughts in that context for consideration.

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Respectfully, the bolded part is poor theology - not supported by scripture but mere man-made Catholic doctrine. As I said in previous posts on this subject, if you are going to rely on tradition, then you better cross reference it against scripture. And there is nothing to suggest at all that Jesus, while on earth, meant 1000 years rather than what he actually said.

Moreover, there is no evidence that "paradise" is somewhere other than Heaven. There just isn't. Paradise is referred to in other places in scripture, and it is always used to describe Heaven. The only logical conclusion is that Christ was referring to the same "paradise" that is used in other places in scripture.

And even if he weren't, once again, there is no evidence that the thief was not saved. Indeed, he was cleansed by the blood of Christ the minute he called on his name, repented of his sins, and believed. No "cleansing" process was necessary, as scripture is crystal clear on this subject. There is no such thing as purgatory.

And therein lies the problem with reliance on man-made doctrine instead of the holy word of God. When scripture doesn't back up or support your position, you should take a hard look at your tradition.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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Mothra said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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canoso said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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canoso said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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canoso said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

---

What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

---

Liberal Churches are not Bible believing. Also, any Church that gives higher authority to anything above or equal with the Word of God is not a Bible believing Church.

---

Can you name some? How does one conclude if they are in the right pew when even in a group of 10
Protestants one can easily get 10 different interpretations?

---

My friend, the group to which you refer hasn't been protesting anything for several centuries now. Please get caught up.

---

I understand. Its complicated but makes for fun discussion and learning

---

When one understands this truth, one stops using the anachronism "Protestant."

---

How does one describe the new faith that schismed in 1517?

---

Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone), Sola Fide (faith alone), Sola Gratia (grace alone), Solus Christus (Christ alone), and Soli Deo Gloria (glory to God alone).

---

None of which are in the Bible

---

You might want to read the Bible

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Read it cover to civer in all likelihood statistically more times than you. If not, well done. All 73 books. The whole thing. Not the abridged versiin. No short cuts. No removing things that Luther didnt like for his own hedonism. .

---

Strange that you missed the central tenet of Christianity - that Jesus alone is the way to salvation, which you denied was in the Bible.

If you've truly read the bible over and over (which I highly doubt), then what you were likely really doing was reading INTO the bible Roman Catholic doctrine, and reading OUT of the bible things that contradict Roman Catholic doctrine, as you are told to do. Because if you read the bible with any kind of intellectual honesty, you'd find that "Christ alone", "faith alone", "grace alone", and "glory to God alone" are all completely supported in the Bible.

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He's so caught up in man-made doctrine and tradition, he can't see the forest through the trees.

Freedom, I do appreciate your last thoughtful post. However, the problem with the position that God somehow made an exception for the thief with respect to the sacraments is that you believe in a God who is inconsistent and whose purported promises you cannot trust. Indeed, if you believe God requires baptism, and allowed the thief to "jump ahead in line" so to speak, then we can't believe what God has promised us. And that is a real problem.

With respect to your idea that the thief may have been baptized at some point prior to his death, this simply doesn't make any logical sense. Jews didn't practice baptism. It was John the Baptist who introduced Baptism in the brief period prior to the beginning of Christ's ministry. So there is no logical reason to believe the thief was, say, sprinkled as a child.

Moreover, I would submit that anyone who believes the plain language of this account - that the thief truly and genuinely had a heart change, repenting of his sins and submitting to Christ immediately prior to his death - and at the same time posits that our God would have condemned him to hell had he not been, say, sprinkled as a baby (an act he would have had no input in or, indeed, any knowledge of) completely misunderstands the nature of God. Only an unmerciful and cruel God would say to the thief - sorry, I realize you have truly repented of your sins and called on my name, but your parents didn't sprinkle you as a child and you're nailed to a cross and can't be baptized so you're going to hell. How absurd and against the nature of the merciful God revealed to us in scripture.

Fre3dombear said:

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xfrodobagginsx said:

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A PRAYER OF SALVATION: If you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, YOU COULD HUMBLY PRAY SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO GOD FROM YOUR HEART IN FAITH:

"Dear Lord Jesus I know that I am a sinner and need you to save me. I believe that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead, shedding your blood as the Sacrifice for my sins. I turn to You as the only way of Salvation, I submit my life to you, I submit my will to yours, I place my Faith and Trust in You alone as Lord of my life, Please save me and I thank You for it, in Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you have truly placed your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord, submitting your life to Him, you can know that you are a child of God and on your way to heaven. Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing Church and follow in baptism.

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What churches are not Bible believing? Or is that code language for something?

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Liberal churches are not Bible believing.